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[earthboyjak]

These are just some sort-of-connected ideas that don't really come together to form a cohesive theory, but that might spur discussion before they dissolve into silly rambling.

 

I was reading a thread in the Lore section of the Dragon Age Franchise forum attempting to match spirit types to their opposed Demons, here: 

 

http://forum.bioware...missing-pieces/

 

It's an interesting topic. I started thinking about how spirits of faith seem to be directly opposed to spirits of envy. We are introduced to the envy demon while seeking an alliance with the Templars during Champions of the Just, and we discover it took the form of Lord Seeker Lucius. The templars and seekers are orders founded upon faith in the maker, and faith is supposedly the source of their powers in one way or another. Faith denotes complete trust in a higher power, and even a sacrifice of one's will to that power. Envy is the want for something someone else has, and the resentment of them for having it. They seem like different sides to a similar concept to me. It's the giving of oneself to a higher power vs. the resentment of and desire to possess power. It's the idea of becoming part of something, vs. making something part of you. 

 

Then I thought about later, when you help Cassandra locate the missing seekers in Promise of Destruction, Lucius reveals his seemingly crazy observations on the nature and secretive history of the seekers, which only the Lord Seeker is privy to. Among his odd ramblings, he states the seekers are abominations, something that I don't believe really sinks in for Cassandra or anyone else at the time. But later, Cassandra reveals that the process of becoming a seeker involves being made tranquil, which invites a spirit of faith to potentially touch the mind if the subject is deemed "pure". While the touching of the mind idea invokes a more palatable visual than the word possession, could the Lord Seeker be technically correct in calling all of his order abominations? A lasting connection to a spirit of faith would also explain just where seekers get their powers from. 

 

Then I started thinking about lyrium. Lyrium seems able to open one up to a connection with a greater power by subverting the individual self, or ego, or what have you. This reminds me a lot of what we learn in Descent. The Sha Brytol make mention of "the pure", and the place they dwell is called The Bastion of the Pure. Shaper Valta first thinks that "the pure" is a reference to the Sha Brytol themselves, who defend the titan and subsist on lyrium, its blood. But we know that a rite of tranquility is not always successful. Not all who are branded with lyrium are deemed pure by spirits of faith, and those unfortunates remain tranquil. In the same way, the Sha Brytol may not necessarily be "pure". In the end, Valta reveals that the titan isn't terribly concerned with them, but that SHE feels purified by the lyrium blast delivered by the titan's guardian, and is thereafter connected to the titan. In entries from her journal mysteriously found in Skyhold after Descent, she reveals that the Sha Brytol give her space and seem to revere her. Though they have all been saturated with lyrium for who knows how long and seem physically bound to the titan, they are not among the chosen to connect with it on a higher level, perhaps in a similar way that a spirit of faith may not choose one made tranquil. 

 

There is a theme here of powerful forces and beings seeking out those who are "pure" to use as "vessels" of power, and lyrium, whether the blue or the red kind, seems key to unlocking this potential. But is lyrium unique in this way? The blood of all living things seems able to make connections and fuel power in different ways. Dragon blood has power that has an effect on anyone who comes in contact with it, and Qunari seem to have a spiritual and physical connection to dragons. Is this a similar thing? 

 

Anyway, that's where this train of thought goes off the rails. 

[The Baconer]

Then I thought about later, when you help Cassandra locate the missing seekers in Promise of Destruction, Lucius reveals his seemingly crazy observations on the nature and secretive history of the seekers, which only the Lord Seeker is privy to. Among his odd ramblings, he states the seekers are abominations, something that I don't believe really sinks in for Cassandra or anyone else at the time. But later, Cassandra reveals that the process of becoming a seeker involves being made tranquil, which invites a spirit of faith to potentially touch the mind if the subject is deemed "pure". While the touching of the mind idea invokes a more palatable visual than the word possession, could the Lord Seeker be technically correct in calling all of his order abominations? A lasting connection to a spirit of faith would also explain just where seekers get their powers from. 

 

Yes. Some form of maintained connection to the spirit would be the most logical way to explain their powers, especially when compared to other forms of spirit interaction. 

[nightscrawl]

Seekers are not abominations because they are not possessed by a spirit or demon. One simply touched their mind, reversing the tranquility; it didn't hang around after that.

[Donquijote and 59 others]

Seekers are not abominations because they are not possessed by a spirit or demon. One simply touched their mind, reversing the tranquility; it didn't hang around after that.

Then way they are immune to possession and mind controlling?

Maybe because the spirit remain inside them!

[Dai Grepher]

An abomination is a mass of twisted flesh, made that way by a demon who forcefully possessed a body whose soul failed to fight off the invader. Supposedly there is no way to reverse an abomination, as the soul and spirit are now merged. Irving hints at this if mages are brought in to Redcliffe to help Connor.

 

A possessed body is one like Wynne, or Connor, or Justice, or Anders, or Sigrid Gulsdotten. If the spirit or demon is let in willingly, then the body becomes possessed with a spirit or demon. Supposedly, only one soul and one spirit can occupy one body. Wynne, if she is sent to the Fade to help Connor, states something along the lines of how she can't be possessed and hints that she is already possessed by a spirit. A possessed body is not twisted, since the possession either happened willingly or with the soul otherwise putting up no fight. Connor did not resist, which means he kept his shape. Justice possessed Kristof's corpse, which put up no fight. He then possessed Anders who welcomed him willingly. Wynne was slipping away when her Spirit of Faith entered her, and made no attempt to possess but rather just restore and support her life. Some call these possessed people "abominations" but the term isn't accurate. Sigrid Guldsdotten is herself, but she is possessed by her spirit teacher. So she isn't an abomination, though she is possessed.

 

A touched soul or body is one who has been altered by a spirit or demon. A tranquil touched by a spirit or demon will reawaken them and reverse their tranquility. A Seeker initiate is made tranquil and then a Spirit of Faith is called to touch this person. That initiate is reawakened and for some reason has extra abilities. This is different depending on the Seeker, and maybe also the spirit that reawakens the person. However, I do not believe this person is possessed at all. It is merely a case of the soul and the spirit exchanging experiences that make each stronger afterward. The soul gains the ability to block possession, and the Spirit of Faith gains a stronger understanding of what faith is from the initiate.

 

Now, I think Lucius' theory was that the Spirit of Faith that touches the initiate doesn't actually leave. He thinks it remains in the initiate's body, and that is where the power comes from. It is also why the Seeker cannot be possessed by a spirit or demon, because he or she is already possessed. I don't know if that is true or not, but I believe he is mistaken. I could be wrong though. Hypothetically, someone like Cassandra would not know if she was possessed by a Spirit of Faith because her own faith is that she is not. Therefore if she is possessed, the Spirit of Faith possessing her would not contradict that faith by communicating with her and telling her she is wrong. Lucius on the other hand might believe the opposite. In which case he would be able to tell if he was possessed or not because he would communicate with the Spirit of Faith possessing him. That Spirit of Faith would answer, since it would be reflecting Lucius' faith that he was actually possessed. From here Lucius would take a new faith in Corypheus that he would destroy the world and remake it as pure.

 

So it's hard to say if a Seeker is just being empowered by a friendly Spirit of Faith that does not reveal itself, or if the spirit reawakens the Seeker and leaves with both being enriched by the experience. I think it's the latter. Cole hints that it is. He says something along the lines of that the Spirit of Faith that touched Cassandra was her. Now this could mean that her own spirit reawakened herself, or that a Spirit of Faith is now part of her and is her, but I think Cole's exact quote hints that it was Cassandra's faith that called a Spirit of Faith to reawaken her, and the powers she has are a result of her own faith. That seems most correct to me.

 

As for the templars and Sha-Bratol, I think this is a separate issue. They are tapping in to lyrium, which recent installments have hinted is basically soul liquid. Souls go "to the stone", and strengthen it. These souls form a collective consciousness called a titan. Those who drink processed lyrium are being empowered by soul energy (though the souls of processed lyrium are likely no longer conscious, it's just their energy).

 

What the Sha-Brytol are is still in question. They could be dwarves who have drank so much lyrium that they are now bound to it. Or maybe they are ancient dwarves without souls (the kind the evanuris may have used to mine the titans) who are controlled by the song that lyrium gives off.

 

The Reavers and Qunari are also a separate issue. I think that has more to do with awakening genetic abilities. This might be more related to Legionnaire Scouts and dwarves in general, and how they are naturally resistant to lyrium. It is a matter of physical ability based on exposure to an element. More experience around lyrium will make some more immune to it. Taking in dragon blood will unlock abilities or bestow knowledge.

 

The taint, lyrium, and the Well of Sorrows, are a different kind of substance. The taint is physical and magical, so it affects the soul as well. These things also carry a "song", which I think is just an archaic term used to describe it. If you hear a song you like, your body's instinct is to move in rhythm with it, be it tapping your toe, nodding your head, swaying, or humming along. Flemeth says, "as long as the music plays, we dance". She also eludes to a song if you show up at her hut to kill her. Saying that you dance to Morrigan's tune now. Justice also mentions the song of lyrium, as does Cole, who also mentions the song of the old gods.

 

This song is, in my belief, a mantra or directive. In the Well's case its a compulsion. It is an order sent out to all who hear it, and the natural impulse is to obey it. The taint's directive is to infect all life with itself. A Grey Warden gains some resistance to this directive and thus the corruption is drastically slowed and the Warden gains the ability to slay an archdemon.

 

Corypheus likely overpowered the Grey Warden resistance by empowering the taint within himself using his own magic. Which is why he could always deter a Warden from killing him. The mantra to spare Corypheus was always too much for any Warden. So for him it rose to the level of a compulsion. Same case with Flemeth using Mythal's compulsion over the one who drank from the well. Eventually, even the taint becomes a compulsion for the Grey Warden.

 

One anomaly is Sophia's demon. It states that there is nothing left of her soul, and only it remains. Yet it possesses a tainted body. It is not affected by the Calling. I think this proves my above theory that the taint is not just a physical corruption but a spiritual one as well.

[The Baconer]

Then way they are immune to possession and mind controlling?

Maybe because the spirit remain inside them!

 

The only other people with these qualities (immunity to possession, mind control, permanent supernatural abilities that aren't "conventional" magic) were Wynne and Anders. This is probably more than a coincidence. On the flip side, Pharamond was "touched", as in, a spirit inhabited his body and was then excised. From then on, he appeared to possess none of the supernatural qualities like the Seekers or the above mages, and was thought to be even more vulnerable to possession than a regular mage. In hindsight, this could have been a lie in an attempt to cover up the Seekers' secret, but Cassandra seems to believe it even after the reveal. I personally believe that what's really happening with the Seeker vigil is more intimate than just possession. 

[earthboyjak]

I think the difference between a possessed body and an abomination is either chantry politics, or hinges on whether or not the possessor is a spirit or a demon. Whether the entity is benign, benevolent or malevolent may matter. Just because we've encountered enemies called abominations that have a relatively conforming appearance is trivial. The effect is the same - somethin akin to a spirit is within a physical body, replacing some or all functions, sometimes altering its physical form, but I doubt that always has to be true.

I think it cripples our understanding of lore, history and magic in DA if we don't make these connections. When lyrium is used by several peoples to strengthen relationships to large concepts like the fade, titans, spirits, maybe even the maker, through very similar processes, you know there's a common denominator that must exist. I think this is especially true when you see a word like "pure" popping up repeatedly in similar contexts. This is unlikely to be a coincidence - rather, I think it's quite obviously a clue. Language choices matter. It clearly refers to a person's receptiveness to higher callings.

I would even bet grey wardens are granted their abilities in a similar way. Not every initiate survives the ritual, just like not every tranquil is met with a spirit of faith, and apparently not every Dwarf is recognized as a child of a titan. There is little to go on when trying to figure out what sort survives yo gain grey warden abilities from the taint, other than the whim of some higher intelligence. The grey warden example obviously doesn't involve lyrium, but that doesn't mean we don't gain understanding from comparisons.

[Sifr]

One anomaly is Sophia's demon. It states that there is nothing left of her soul, and only it remains. Yet it possesses a tainted body. It is not affected by the Calling. I think this proves my above theory that the taint is not just a physical corruption but a spiritual one as well.

 

Justice sees to have had no issue with the taint present in Anders and Kristoff either, although neither were at the point of undergoing the Calling.

 

Sophia's case is curious because despite Avernus referring to her as a "corpse", it seems extremely unlikely that her body was the only one not to have decayed like the other dead Wardens present in the Peak, especially after two centuries.

 

One possibility is that Sophia was the only one possessed when she was still alive and has been "living" in that state for the past two hundred years. Since the taint allows Darkspawn to have a form of biological immortality, it's not impossible that her body could have sustained itself for 200 years in the same manner, with her appearance being the result of eventual ghoulification setting in. That actually would also make her a quite ideal host for a demon, since they never have to worry about the vessel dying of old age or decaying into nothing.

 

Might also explain Avernus surviving in his tower for the same amount of time without any signs he was able to procure food or water, somehow having figured out via his experiments the means to tap into the same ability that allows Darkspawn to subsist without nourishment?

[Dai Grepher]

I think the difference between a possessed body and an abomination is either chantry politics, or hinges on whether or not the possessor is a spirit or a demon. Whether the entity is benign, benevolent or malevolent may matter. Just because we've encountered enemies called abominations that have a relatively conforming appearance is trivial. The effect is the same - somethin akin to a spirit is within a physical body, replacing some or all functions, sometimes altering its physical form, but I doubt that always has to be true.

I think it cripples our understanding of lore, history and magic in DA if we don't make these connections. When lyrium is used by several peoples to strengthen relationships to large concepts like the fade, titans, spirits, maybe even the maker, through very similar processes, you know there's a common denominator that must exist. I think this is especially true when you see a word like "pure" popping up repeatedly in similar contexts. This is unlikely to be a coincidence - rather, I think it's quite obviously a clue. Language choices matter. It clearly refers to a person's receptiveness to higher callings.

I would even bet grey wardens are granted their abilities in a similar way. Not every initiate survives the ritual, just like not every tranquil is met with a spirit of faith, and apparently not every Dwarf is recognized as a child of a titan. There is little to go on when trying to figure out what sort survives yo gain grey warden abilities from the taint, other than the whim of some higher intelligence. The grey warden example obviously doesn't involve lyrium, but that doesn't mean we don't gain understanding from comparisons.

 

I don't think it has to do with the Chantry. The Chantry doesn't define that term. It is defined by a long history of magic and research on the Fade and the nature of spirits and bodies. Wynne questions whether she is an abomination just for harboring a good spirit. So there is some debate about what constitutes an abomination, but I think the common understanding is that an abomination is a twisted life-form. I can't imagine the term coming from anything less grotesque.

 

But lyrium can be used for different things. Mages use it to increase their mana. Templars use it to tap into their ability to deny magic, or enforce reality. I think lyrium is the product of both the Fade and the Real, which is why it can be used for either "cause". The term "pure" just means 100% a certain thing. In Descent, Renn states that the bodies of the Legionnaires that were defiled by the Darkspawn can't return to the stone. It would just make it weaker. If this refers to their souls going to the lyrium, then this might actually be the case. If he's only referring to physical bodies decaying into physical dirt, then in a way that might be right too since the taint will be in the rocks for a time. When Renn dies, Valta buries him there. Cole can say that Renn returned to the stone. But is this because Cole senses that Renn's spirit went to the lyrium, or was he just trying to ease Valta's pain and knew saying that would make her feel better? In any case, Valta digs up Renn's body after becoming connected with the titan. Perhaps this shows a spiritual connection with the stone, rather than a physical one. If you want to examine this connection further, then the issue to discuss would be where lyrium comes from and what it is exactly.

 

The Joining does involve lyrium, but also blood and the taint. Why some Wardens survive while others do not is another mystery. The bad future shows that Leliana's body has a resistance to the taint. Perhaps physical resistance is key. Or maybe the taint's compulsion forces itself on the will of the Warden, and it is up to the Warden to resist that directive. In which case it's a question of willpower. Maybe its both.

 

One possibility is that Sophia was the only one possessed when she was still alive and has been "living" in that state for the past two hundred years. Since the taint allows Darkspawn to have a form of biological immortality, it's not impossible that her body could have sustained itself for 200 years in the same manner, with her appearance being the result of eventual ghoulification setting in. That actually would also make her a quite ideal host for a demon, since they never have to worry about the vessel dying of old age or decaying into nothing.

 

Might also explain Avernus surviving in his tower for the same amount of time without any signs he was able to procure food or water, somehow having figured out via his experiments the means to tap into the same ability that allows Darkspawn to subsist without nourishment?

 

It's likely she was possessed right after death. Justice is said to have not been able to maintain Kristof's body for long before it became too decayed to function. Sophia's demon is probably like Cole, possessing a body that had just died. So the addition of a spirit/demon to maintain it at that state is why the body does not decay. But yes Sophia's demon still had the physical taint.

 

The taint allows Darkspawn to live for ages, but that doesn't mean it's the case with ghouls. There is likely something special about Darkspawn physiology that allows it. Avernus likely tapped into it, but even he still aged and would succumb eventually. Or maybe he would just go on living for ages as a ghoul. Or maybe the taint doesn't allow just any Darkspawn to live for ages. Maybe only certain ones do, such as the strongest ones like the Ancient Hurlock in the Deep Roads. It is said that even Broodmothers, ghouls who undergo the most extreme transformation, have a lifespan.

 

I'm not sure Avernus survived without food and water. Not sure the taint allows for this either. Alistair states that the taint gives you an increased apatite. Maybe Avernus controlled corpses and had them go out to collect food. Or maybe he did it himself. The room with the Alchemic Concoction has a door that leads down. And if you look outside from the top of the tower you can see an entrance at the bottom of Avernus' tower, if I recall correctly.

[Addictress]

Spoiler

An abomination is a mass of twisted flesh, made that way by a demon who forcefully possessed a body whose soul failed to fight off the invader. Supposedly there is no way to reverse an abomination, as the soul and spirit are now merged. Irving hints at this if mages are brought in to Redcliffe to help Connor.

A possessed body is one like Wynne, or Connor, or Justice, or Anders, or Sigrid Gulsdotten. If the spirit or demon is let in willingly, then the body becomes possessed with a spirit or demon. Supposedly, only one soul and one spirit can occupy one body. Wynne, if she is sent to the Fade to help Connor, states something along the lines of how she can't be possessed and hints that she is already possessed by a spirit. A possessed body is not twisted, since the possession either happened willingly or with the soul otherwise putting up no fight. Connor did not resist, which means he kept his shape. Justice possessed Kristof's corpse, which put up no fight. He then possessed Anders who welcomed him willingly. Wynne was slipping away when her Spirit of Faith entered her, and made no attempt to possess but rather just restore and support her life. Some call these possessed people "abominations" but the term isn't accurate. Sigrid Guldsdotten is herself, but she is possessed by her spirit teacher. So she isn't an abomination, though she is possessed.

A touched soul or body is one who has been altered by a spirit or demon. A tranquil touched by a spirit or demon will reawaken them and reverse their tranquility. A Seeker initiate is made tranquil and then a Spirit of Faith is called to touch this person. That initiate is reawakened and for some reason has extra abilities. This is different depending on the Seeker, and maybe also the spirit that reawakens the person. However, I do not believe this person is possessed at all. It is merely a case of the soul and the spirit exchanging experiences that make each stronger afterward. The soul gains the ability to block possession, and the Spirit of Faith gains a stronger understanding of what faith is from the initiate.

Now, I think Lucius' theory was that the Spirit of Faith that touches the initiate doesn't actually leave. He thinks it remains in the initiate's body, and that is where the power comes from. It is also why the Seeker cannot be possessed by a spirit or demon, because he or she is already possessed. I don't know if that is true or not, but I believe he is mistaken. I could be wrong though. Hypothetically, someone like Cassandra would not know if she was possessed by a Spirit of Faith because her own faith is that she is not. Therefore if she is possessed, the Spirit of Faith possessing her would not contradict that faith by communicating with her and telling her she is wrong. Lucius on the other hand might believe the opposite. In which case he would be able to tell if he was possessed or not because he would communicate with the Spirit of Faith possessing him. That Spirit of Faith would answer, since it would be reflecting Lucius' faith that he was actually possessed. From here Lucius would take a new faith in Corypheus that he would destroy the world and remake it as pure.

So it's hard to say if a Seeker is just being empowered by a friendly Spirit of Faith that does not reveal itself, or if the spirit reawakens the Seeker and leaves with both being enriched by the experience. I think it's the latter. Cole hints that it is. He says something along the lines of that the Spirit of Faith that touched Cassandra was her. Now this could mean that her own spirit reawakened herself, or that a Spirit of Faith is now part of her and is her, but I think Cole's exact quote hints that it was Cassandra's faith that called a Spirit of Faith to reawaken her, and the powers she has are a result of her own faith. That seems most correct to me.

As for the templars and Sha-Bratol, I think this is a separate issue. They are tapping in to lyrium, which recent installments have hinted is basically soul liquid. Souls go "to the stone", and strengthen it. These souls form a collective consciousness called a titan. Those who drink processed lyrium are being empowered by soul energy (though the souls of processed lyrium are likely no longer conscious, it's just their energy).

What the Sha-Brytol are is still in question. They could be dwarves who have drank so much lyrium that they are now bound to it. Or maybe they are ancient dwarves without souls (the kind the evanuris may have used to mine the titans) who are controlled by the song that lyrium gives off.

The Reavers and Qunari are also a separate issue. I think that has more to do with awakening genetic abilities. This might be more related to Legionnaire Scouts and dwarves in general, and how they are naturally resistant to lyrium. It is a matter of physical ability based on exposure to an element. More experience around lyrium will make some more immune to it. Taking in dragon blood will unlock abilities or bestow knowledge.

The taint, lyrium, and the Well of Sorrows, are a different kind of substance. The taint is physical and magical, so it affects the soul as well. These things also carry a "song", which I think is just an archaic term used to describe it. If you hear a song you like, your body's instinct is to move in rhythm with it, be it tapping your toe, nodding your head, swaying, or humming along. Flemeth says, "as long as the music plays, we dance". She also eludes to a song if you show up at her hut to kill her. Saying that you dance to Morrigan's tune now. Justice also mentions the song of lyrium, as does Cole, who also mentions the song of the old gods.

This song is, in my belief, a mantra or directive. In the Well's case its a compulsion. It is an order sent out to all who hear it, and the natural impulse is to obey it. The taint's directive is to infect all life with itself. A Grey Warden gains some resistance to this directive and thus the corruption is drastically slowed and the Warden gains the ability to slay an archdemon.

Corypheus likely overpowered the Grey Warden resistance by empowering the taint within himself using his own magic. Which is why he could always deter a Warden from killing him. The mantra to spare Corypheus was always too much for any Warden. So for him it rose to the level of a compulsion. Same case with Flemeth using Mythal's compulsion over the one who drank from the well. Eventually, even the taint becomes a compulsion for the Grey Warden.

One anomaly is Sophia's demon. It states that there is nothing left of her soul, and only it remains. Yet it possesses a tainted body. It is not affected by the Calling. I think this proves my above theory that the taint is not just a physical corruption but a spiritual one as well.

You won the internet.

[Dai Grepher]

Well thanks. I also just looked something up about Mhiris, the female elven mage we see in the Hinterlands looking to explore that ruin. In Masked Empire she was possessed by Imshael. Felassan convinced Imshael to leave her body. He did, and she went back to normal. So she was no longer possessed. But if you try to fight her in the game, she's quite powerful. I don't know if this is due to Imshael's influence or not. However, a possessed person can be freed from it. An abomination can only be slain. So I think Lucius may have been incorrectly applying the term "abomination" to refer to Seekers.

[Big I]

Seekers are a specific type of Spirit Warrior (a DA:O spec). Spirit Warrior use magical abilities that are powered by spirits. Templars are just a succeful attempt at reproducing Seeker abilities using lyrium.