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why didn't they get someone to kill Corypheus?


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#1
dantares83

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i know Corypheus cannot be killed by a warden but why didn't the wardens just find someone not tainted by the dark spawn blood to kill him?

 

I mean all along they find mages without tainted blood to repair the seals so surely they had one point (in over a thousand year) decided that it would be so much easier to get these people to just try and kill him?

 

surely lots would volunteer to bring peace to the world (just like lots volunteered to be wardens even though it meant an early death sentence). and if at that point of time, they find out that Corypheus is just like the archdemon, they know that they can kill it with some other method.

 

Anyway, if an archdemon soul cannot possessed a warden because of the warden's own soul in conflict with it, how can Corypheus one works?



#2
thats1evildude

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Corypheus can jump bodies no matter who kills him. I mean, Hawke killed him, and he still leapt into Larius/Janeka. He died at Haven at the Conclave and he just switched bodies. That's partly why he was imprisoned, the other reason being so that they could study him.

Cory only died at the end of DAI because you killed his dragon. He invested so much power into creating it that the backlash from its death weakened him, temporarily preventing him from body surfing.

Corypheus is more closely connected to the taint than the Archdemons, having been one of the original magisters who entered the Black City. His body jumping ability simply seems to be stronger.


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#3
dantares83

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ok, that all make sense



#4
Aren

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For the archdemons to be honest lot of this is surrounded by mystery it may be because the magisters gained their ability from the black city and they are able to master the taint better than the Old gods, however it doesn't seem to me that the Architect is able to bodypump so it is possible that this is only an ability of Corypheus .


#5
Dai Grepher

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Better question. Why didn't the Wardens write this down somewhere?



#6
AlanC9

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I'm sure they did. If we ever get to Weisshaupt we'll find it in a codex entry.
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#7
Big I

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 it doesn't seem to me that the Architect is able to bodypump so it is possible that this is only an ability of Corypheus .

 

 

The first draft of the plot for Here Lies the Abyss had the Architect in it. This might mean that he can jump bodies but doesn't know that; after all it's pretty clear that the Architect is an ancient magister that's forgotten who and what he is.



#8
TheKomandorShepard

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The first draft of the plot for Here Lies the Abyss had the Architect in it. This might mean that he can jump bodies but doesn't know that; after all it's pretty clear that the Architect is an ancient magister that's forgotten who and what he is.

Considering that DG said Architect ain't going to return if killed pretty much destroys this theory, plus he didn't have any of abilities that Corypheus had.



#9
Aren

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The first draft of the plot for Here Lies the Abyss had the Architect in it. This might mean that he can jump bodies but doesn't know that; after all it's pretty clear that the Architect is an ancient magister that's forgotten who and what he is.

Yes i know that,but this doesn't mean that he would have used the same ability of Corypheus to survive he could have just as easily used another technique like Flemeth,put his soul into Shianni ecc...



#10
Gervaise

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Some of the hints as to how the body jumping/survival work can be found back in DAO when Morrigan is explain how she thinks Flemeth survives.   She says that according to the Grimoire this has greater chance of success if the individual is already similar to the one making the jump, i.e. human and a mage.    Then in DAI Flemeth says that the soul cannot be forced onto the unwilling.

 

So archdemon to Grey Warden results in death of both because the difference between the two is too great and the Grey Warden's soul resists the transfer.  It works between archdemon and other darkspawn because whilst they are different in physical appearance, they are both wholly tainted creatures and the darkspawn are said to be soulless, so no resistance.   Also any will they do have is controlled by the archdemon.   It does appear to be an automatic thing with the archdemon having no control over which creature it jumps too, since the Dark Ritual is able to overcome the mechanism and re-direct the soul to Morrigan's baby.   May be it travels easier to a creature with a soul than not and because of the natural resistance in the Warden, it goes by the easier path to the baby.   (Morrigan has essentially created a short circuit in the system).

 

Corypheus to Grey Warden is successful because they are both humanoids, tainted and he already has some control over their mind, so they are effectively a willing host.   What tended to be played down in DAI is how darkspawn are meant to be attracted to him in the same way as an archdemon, so really Cory running around on the surface should have triggered a Blight.  Presumably the attraction to him is far weaker than that of an archdemon.   It is also not clear but it must be assumed that he does have control over which tainted creature he jumps to.   May be the fact that he still has a soul and seems in control of his mind means that he cannot jump to a soulless darkspawn or if he did, he would lose his autonomy and become a mindless drone too.

 

The Architect does present a problem.    If we kill him, then there were plenty of Wardens standing there for him to jump to.    In which case it has to be something that is done as an act of will rather than something automatic.      However, he also seems to have no control over the Wardens, mage or otherwise, like Corypheus does.    So either he does have to be aware of the ability and choose to use it, he isn't the same sort of creature as Corypheus or each Magister had different attribute they gained as part of the Blight.    

 

It is possible that Corypheus realised the possibility of transferring only after the Wardens had found the way to kill the first archdemon.  Dumat was killed in -203 but allegedly the Wardens only discovered the possibility of intelligent darkspawn in -191 when they captured Corypheus, which gave him twelve years to work out how it was done before capture and then a further 10 years while they were studying him, particularly as he could probably have influenced the Wardens guarding him into revealing the secret.    They only finally sealed him away in -181.


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#11
sniper_arrow

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The Architect does present a problem.    If we kill him, then there were plenty of Wardens standing there for him to jump to.    In which case it has to be something that is done as an act of will rather than something automatic.      However, he also seems to have no control over the Wardens, mage or otherwise, like Corypheus does.    So either he does have to be aware of the ability and choose to use it, he isn't the same sort of creature as Corypheus or each Magister had different attribute they gained as part of the Blight.    

 

If the Architect was aware he can body jump, I think Seranni is a viable candidate.



#12
TheKomandorShepard

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If the Architect was aware he can body jump, I think Seranni is a viable candidate.

And why he would kill his ally instead of his enemy?



#13
Aren

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So archdemon to Grey Warden results in death of both because the difference between the two is too great and the Grey Warden's soul resists the transfer.  It works between archdemon and other darkspawn because whilst they are different in physical appearance, they are both wholly tainted creatures and the darkspawn are said to be soulless, so no resistance.   Also any will they do have is controlled by the archdemon.   It does appear to be an automatic thing with the archdemon having no control over which creature it jumps too, since the Dark Ritual is able to overcome the mechanism and re-direct the soul to Morrigan's baby.   May be it travels easier to a creature with a soul than not and because of the natural resistance in the Warden, it goes by the easier path to the baby.   (Morrigan has essentially created a short circuit in the system).

 

Corypheus to Grey Warden is successful because they are both humanoids, tainted and he already has some control over their mind, so they are effectively a willing host.   What tended to be played down in DAI is how darkspawn are meant to be attracted to him in the same way as an archdemon, so really Cory running around on the surface should have triggered a Blight.  Presumably the attraction to him is far weaker than that of an archdemon.   It is also not clear but it must be assumed that he does have control over which tainted creature he jumps to.   May be the fact that he still has a soul and seems in control of his mind means that he cannot jump to a soulless darkspawn or if he did, he would lose his autonomy and become a mindless drone too.

 

The Architect does present a problem.    If we kill him, then there were plenty of Wardens standing there for him to jump to.    In which case it has to be something that is done as an act of will rather than something automatic.      However, he also seems to have no control over the Wardens, mage or otherwise, like Corypheus does.    So either he does have to be aware of the ability and choose to use it, he isn't the same sort of creature as Corypheus or each Magister had different attribute they gained as part of the Blight.    

 

It is possible that Corypheus realised the possibility of transferring only after the Wardens had found the way to kill the first archdemon.  Dumat was killed in -203 but allegedly the Wardens only discovered the possibility of intelligent darkspawn in -191 when they captured Corypheus, which gave him twelve years to work out how it was done before capture and then a further 10 years while they were studying him, particularly as he could probably have influenced the Wardens guarding him into revealing the secret.    They only finally sealed him away in -181.

-Darkspawn are not souless they can become disciples and they can enter into the fade,it is a matter of will,since their will is already subjugated to the archdemon there is no resistance so here i agree.

 

 

-The Dark ritual use the warden body as a filter,first the archdemon soul has to enter into a GW body and gain part of it's resistance this is why the archdemon soul don't jump into another darkspawn

 

 

-Agree on Corypheus

 

-Yes but what attribute The Achitect gained? He doesn't seem to have any ability



#14
nightscrawl

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Corypheus can jump bodies no matter who kills him. I mean, Hawke killed him, and he still leapt into Larius/Janeka. He died at Haven and he just switched bodies.


Right after the pre-Inquisitor kicks the trebuchet lever, you see the dragon wrap itself around Corypheus. I always assumed that he was lifted up in its claws and taken away to safety.

#15
dantares83

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-Darkspawn are not souless they can become disciples and they can enter into the fade,it is a matter of will,since their will is already subjugated to the archdemon there is no resistance so here i agree.

 

 

im pretty sure i read somewhere that because darkspawns are soulless, that is why the archdemon can possessed it without any consequences



#16
nightscrawl

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^ Yepper, Riordan even refers to them as soulless when explaining why a warden is needed to kill the Archdemon. That is the whole point. The Archdemon's soul jumps into the nearest tainted creature, which would normally be a darkspawn. If there is a warden nearby -- striking the killing blow would put them as the nearest tainted creature -- the Archdemon's soul jumps into that warden instead. Because the warden does have a soul, the person cannot contain both, so there is a clash souls, killing the Archdemon permanently along with the warden.

 

I've never really understood the way the Dark Ritual works, however. Morrigan says that the Archdemon's soul will seek out the new collection of cells (my phrasing) "like a beacon" (her phrasing), which seems to suggest it is the mere innocence and purity of that collection of cells which is the key. I dunno... I've always found it to be a bit far-fetched, particularly if you choose to leave her at the gate. But it works, so...



#17
Gervaise

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Flemeth taught her the Dark Ritual so I imagine that she would have included an element that made it absolutely fool proof.    After all Morrigan always conceives a child with whchever Warden does the deed, which again is pretty remarkable considering how difficult it is for them to father a baby.   Mind you she always has a child with the Warden regardless of the Dark Ritual, so some seriously effective fertility going on there with her.    

 

It is odd how it can travel so far to Morrigan and avoid every other tainted creature on the way.   In Last Flight, even though when they confront the Arch demon Garahel and his companions are in advance of darkspawn so the two Wardens would still be closest even if they don't strike the last blow, he insists on doing so because otherwise it won't work.    Presumably the Wardens discovered this by trial and error.     It is puzzling though why the Warden has to actually strike the killing blow with the  archdemon but Morrigan suggests there is no limit to Cory's range and he could jump to the nearest Warden anywhere.   Mind you I suppose that is based on her knowledge about the Dark Ritual.     It was typical of Morrigan that she only thought to mention what she knew after we witnessed his resurrection, even though we had been puzzling about how he survived the encounter with Hawke.

 

There was also conflicting information in DAO over the fate of the souls.   On one hand we were told that it simply kills the person as the archdemon passes through them and then presumably back to the Fade; in another place in definitely says it annihilates both souls.   



#18
thats1evildude

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Right after the pre-Inquisitor kicks the trebuchet lever, you see the dragon wrap itself around Corypheus. I always assumed that he was lifted up in its claws and taken away to safety.

 

During the Battle of Haven, yes. I meant that he died in the explosion at the Conclave. Shoulda clarified that, I guess.


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#19
KaiserShep

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It was cool to see him die at the Temple of Mythal only to resurrect through a Warden corpse.
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#20
nightscrawl

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Flemeth taught her the Dark Ritual so I imagine that she would have included an element that made it absolutely fool proof.    After all Morrigan always conceives a child with whchever Warden does the deed, which again is pretty remarkable considering how difficult it is for them to father a baby.   Mind you she always has a child with the Warden regardless of the Dark Ritual, so some seriously effective fertility going on there with her.    

 

It is odd how it can travel so far to Morrigan and avoid every other tainted creature on the way.   In Last Flight, even though when they confront the Arch demon Garahel and his companions are in advance of darkspawn so the two Wardens would still be closest even if they don't strike the last blow, he insists on doing so because otherwise it won't work.    Presumably the Wardens discovered this by trial and error.     It is puzzling though why the Warden has to actually strike the killing blow with the  archdemon but Morrigan suggests there is no limit to Cory's range and he could jump to the nearest Warden anywhere.   Mind you I suppose that is based on her knowledge about the Dark Ritual.     It was typical of Morrigan that she only thought to mention what she knew after we witnessed his resurrection, even though we had been puzzling about how he survived the encounter with Hawke.

 

There was also conflicting information in DAO over the fate of the souls.   On one hand we were told that it simply kills the person as the archdemon passes through them and then presumably back to the Fade; in another place in definitely says it annihilates both souls.   

 

I understand all that... I did try to make the point that whichever warden strikes the killing blow would necessarily BE the nearest tainted creature, because they're right there, killing it... In this case, it could have been Alistair instead of the PC. I really don't think it matters. They (the devs) just have the PC do it for the epicness.

 

However, I don't know whether it has to be a warden striking the killing blow if the DR has been complete. I mean... why? If the Archdemon's soul is going to seek out the collection of cells "like a beacon," it really shouldn't matter who kills it at that point.



#21
ModernAcademic

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It was cool to see him die at the Temple of Mythal only to resurrect through a Warden corpse.

 

We need more stuff like that in DA.

Also, it wouldn't hurt for BW to explain all about the lore presented in Origins and that, after 3 games, still remains a mystery,

 

 

I mean, c'mon. 3 games already, one Archdemon and one immortal Magister down, possible awakened darkspawn led by a sentient emissary, the GW Order possibly destroyed and nobody knows what is the taint. It's like having a Math teacher that demands you solve a cubic equation without having taught you the four basic operations first.



#22
AresKeith

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It was cool to see him die at the Temple of Mythal only to resurrect through a Warden corpse.

 

If he wanted to he could kill himself by ripping off his own head and just resurrect :P



#23
ModernAcademic

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i know Corypheus cannot be killed by a warden but why didn't the wardens just find someone not tainted by the dark spawn blood to kill him?
 
I mean all along they find mages without tainted blood to repair the seals so surely they had one point (in over a thousand year) decided that it would be so much easier to get these people to just try and kill him?
 
surely lots would volunteer to bring peace to the world (just like lots volunteered to be wardens even though it meant an early death sentence). and if at that point of time, they find out that Corypheus is just like the archdemon, they know that they can kill it with some other method.
 
Anyway, if an archdemon soul cannot possessed a warden because of the warden's own soul in conflict with it, how can Corypheus one works?


Sure, lots of people would give up their perfect, normal lives to descend into the dark, terrifying Deep Roads, a huge maze in the bowels of the earth filled with monsters infected by a highly contagious and unknown plague in an obscure mission in order to die fighting against a mighty creature with godlike powers and a vastly superior knowledge of magic that predates the Circle in thousands of years.

Makes perfect sense.

#24
dantares83

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Sure, lots of people would give up their perfect, normal lives to descend into the dark, terrifying Deep Roads, a huge maze in the bowels of the earth filled with monsters infected by a highly contagious and unknown plague in an obscure mission in order to die fighting against a mighty creature with godlike powers and a vastly superior knowledge of magic that predates the Circle in thousands of years.

Makes perfect sense.

 

there are many people who think of the greater good and willing to die for their countries.

 

the first batch of wardens and seekers are all volunteers even though they already know their job is highly dangerous


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