17 réponses à ce sujet

[olnorton]

I'm playing Subtlety of Thay
How do you kill a Mur-zhagul troll?
It takes magical damage & cold damage, but I can't finish it off

[Tchos]

Haven't seen that kind before, but have you tried acid?

[olnorton]

No, I don't have access to acid.
It's immune to fire.
I'll go back and console in something to try acid on him.


Edit: Acid did finish him off. But it didn't advance the plot, so he can't have been the Troll leader.

[kamal_]

If you killed it with acid, that's probably actually a bug as Mur-Zhagul are supposed to be basically immune to acid (and fire) due to their demonic heritage. They are supposed to take normal damage from holy/blessed. The sourcebook doesn't say you specifically need holy/blessed to kill them, but it does the same wording as fire/acid for normal trolls ('trolls take normal damage from fire/acid' / 'mur-zhagul take normal damage from holy/blessed') and the monster manual doesn't specify fire/acid to kill a troll. So if the builder gives the mur-zhagul the same sort of implementing as nwn trolls have, it would be holy/blessed to kill since nwn trolls require fire/acid to kill.

[olnorton]

Is the magical damage done by a monk considered blessed?

[Tchos]

the monster manual doesn't specify fire/acid to kill a troll.

 

That's interesting, because the monster manuals for 1st, 2nd, and 4th edition specifically state that only fire or acid can stop a troll's regeneration, and they can't be killed otherwise, but you're right, 3.5 does not say that.

[kevL]

Is the magical damage done by a monk considered blessed?

i doubt it. Think "divine" damage, eg FlameStrike (the non-fire part)

/unless mistaken

[olnorton]

Well I've quick saved over my game so I can't go back and try again.
I had it down to near dead a couple of times, it was taking cold & magical damage from my Monk PC.
My companion is a Bard who had a few scrolls, so if it wasn't the acid flask, maybe she used a scroll with divine damage.

[Arkalezth]

It was years ago so I may be mistaken, but I vaguely recall killing a troll in that module with Curse Song. So, sonic damage?

[kamal_]

That's interesting, because the monster manuals for 1st, 2nd, and 4th edition specifically state that only fire or acid can stop a troll's regeneration, and they can't be killed otherwise, but you're right, 3.5 does not say that.

The mur-zhagul only appears in the 3.5 Unapproachable East book, so I did indeed use the 3.5 monster manual for my comparison. It could be that "normal damage" get defined somewhere in the rules as damage regeneration won't fix, but I didn't look for it.

[kamal_]

i doubt it. Think "divine" damage, eg FlameStrike (the non-fire part)

/unless mistaken

Out of curiosity, I looked it up and Holy Water does divine as a damage type. Holy Traps also do divine. So divine damage should surely qualify.

 

There are spells that use the sp_holy_conjure.sef as their conjuration visual, probably any of those spells should qualify if they do damage.

 

The Holy Avenger just has a generic +damage vs alignment group evil. That would have to qualify since the Holy Avenger is clearly blessed/holy.

 

A weapon under the effect of the Bless Weapon spell gets a + vs evil like the Holy Avenger.

[kamal_]

That's interesting, because the monster manuals for 1st, 2nd, and 4th edition specifically state that only fire or acid can stop a troll's regeneration, and they can't be killed otherwise, but you're right, 3.5 does not say that.

 

In my mind, regenerating creatures like trolls have a "mostly dead" state in between alive and really dead, with it being rather undefined and up to the DM how they want to handle coming back from that. To me "mostly dead" is dead (not breathing, no heartbeat etc) but with the potential to come alive again, given time and without outside interference, while "really dead" cant come alive again.

 

The monster manual says trolls will regrow missing limbs in 3d6 minutes. Losing a limb is a survivable injury (not easily but possible) for a human, so as a DM I would say coming back from the "mostly dead" status would take longer than the 3d6 minutes for limb restoration, exactly how long depending on the amount of damage done to the troll's body. The heroes, assuming they lack anything to finish the "mostly dead" troll off, are fairly likely to have finished looting the area and moved away during that time, but even if they haven't the troll is still in a "mostly dead" state during that time. Since the troll cant take any action while in that state, the heroes should be able to regularly apply a coup de grace to the troll to keep it in that state (mace to the face!). As a result, I'd DM it as a party could stay in the area indefinitely as long as they were able to apply regular coup de grace attacks against the troll. DnD computer game trolls come back to life in a round or two, presumably for gameplay.

 

As far as I know trolls have young, they don't reproduce by ripping off an arm and then the arm regenerating into a new troll. So there has to be some minimum amount of troll, or a crucial part, for it to regenerate. I suppose you could rule the troll would need 51% of it's body in one chunk, or there is a critical chunk (as long as it contains the heart...) the troll regenerates from.

[Tchos]

In 1st edition, the description states that even a troll that is completely chopped to pieces will eventually regenerate unless it is burned or immersed in acid.  It's a very brief and vague description, though, not saying anything about how the pieces would come together or if there's a piece size limit, and of course DMs were expected to provide a lot more details on their own, so that sort of thing would be at DM's discretion.

 

About the acid, it says "immersed" in several editions -- not just splashed with it, but more like dropped into a vat of it. 

 

Other editions seem pretty strongly informed by the 1st edition description of acid/fire being the only way to stop one from regenerating, and that a troll that can regenerate can't be killed, so my thought is that 3.0 and 3.5 simply neglected to explain fully.

 

Still, in Troika's the Temple of Elemental Evil, the most slavishly rule-following 3.5 computer game ever, you can kill a troll that you've rendered unconscious with non-lethal damage with a coup de grace, and never need fire or acid for them.  They interpreted the "normal damage" line to mean that any damage other than fire or acid would be delivered as non-lethal damage that can only knock them out, but somehow coup de grace was different.  Of course, it's not specified what exactly a PC is doing when they deliver a coup de grace -- cutting off the head?  Piercing the heart?  Setting the pieces on fire?  Vomiting stomach acid onto it?  I suppose there's room for interpretation there.

[rjshae]

Reminds me of the Troll grenade back in the early D&D era. It consisted of a jar with troll's finger dangling over some strong acid. You tossed it at a group of the enemy, who first got burned by the acid and then had a troll regenerating in their midst.

[kamal_]

In 1st edition, the description states that even a troll that is completely chopped to pieces will eventually regenerate unless it is burned or immersed in acid.  It's a very brief and vague description, though, not saying anything about how the pieces would come together or if there's a piece size limit, and of course DMs were expected to provide a lot more details on their own, so that sort of thing would be at DM's discretion.

 

About the acid, it says "immersed" in several editions -- not just splashed with it, but more like dropped into a vat of it. 

 

Other editions seem pretty strongly informed by the 1st edition description of acid/fire being the only way to stop one from regenerating, and that a troll that can regenerate can't be killed, so my thought is that 3.0 and 3.5 simply neglected to explain fully.

 

Still, in Troika's the Temple of Elemental Evil, the most slavishly rule-following 3.5 computer game ever, you can kill a troll that you've rendered unconscious with non-lethal damage with a coup de grace, and never need fire or acid for them.  They interpreted the "normal damage" line to mean that any damage other than fire or acid would be delivered as non-lethal damage that can only knock them out, but somehow coup de grace was different.  Of course, it's not specified what exactly a PC is doing when they deliver a coup de grace -- cutting off the head?  Piercing the heart?  Setting the pieces on fire?  Vomiting stomach acid onto it?  I suppose there's room for interpretation there.

I suppose that would make the ToEE troll 3.5 rule following, since the 3.5 troll description doesn't mention needing fire/acid to be killed. An unexpected rule following, since probably every expects to need fire/acid, but rule following.

 

An amusing point for me was looking up the troll in the 3.5 MM, and having the stat block list "cold mountains" as their environment while the first sentence of their description is all climates from arctic wasteland to tropical jungle. Maybe cold mountains are the preferred climate and anywhere else they just get even grumpier than they already are.

 

Troll killing is just one of those DM's discretion things over exactly what's necessary to stop a creature that can regrow an arm in as little as three minutes. I don't have access to a 5th ed MM troll to see what it says.

[kamal_]

Reminds me of the Troll grenade back in the early D&D era. It consisted of a jar with troll's finger dangling over some strong acid. You tossed it at a group of the enemy, who first got burned by the acid and then had a troll regenerating in their midst.

I don't think that would work, as the chopped off arm doesn't seem to grow into a new troll. And even if it did it would take far too long on the battlefield to grow into an entire troll.

[rjshae]

I don't think that would work, as the chopped off arm doesn't seem to grow into a new troll. And even if it did it would take far too long on the battlefield to grow into an entire troll.

 

Well like I said, it was the old D&D. A troll can fully regenerate in roughly 13 rounds, but presumably it can become active before then. In a large scale battle that could prove very troubling for the enemy army.

[Tchos]

Yes, in old D&D a troll that has not been burned or acid-immersed will resume combat once it has regenerated to 6 or more HP.

 

But what is keeping the finger from regenerating when it's in the jar?