375 réponses à ce sujet

[robertthebard]

Making sense and being a crappy way to tell a story are not mutually exclusive.

This, however, is a matter of opinion.  I don't think it was all that crappy, because I saw it as making sense to send scouts in before we go, in context with the game.  If we were Joe Adventurer, then I wouldn't be feeling the same way, and would, in fact, prefer to be the first boots on the ground.  As presented, however, this isn't the case.  It's logical that we put the resources at our disposal to work, hence scouts being sent out from the war table.  What this does add, however, is a sense of involvement with the process, since we decide where they go.

[Nefla]

Wasn't crappy for me, was my favourite feature of the game.

 

Also, I don't remember any of these "memorable" side quests from Origins that people keep mentioning.

You don't remember talking to Filda the widow and finding her son Ruck in the deep roads insane and corrupted and being able to choose whether to kill him or not and whether to lie to his mother about it? You don't remember the crime wave quests for Slim Couldry the elf-blooded human in Denerim? Zerlinda having to abandon her baby in the deep roads, reconcile with her father, or be taken in by the chantry? Finding Bevin hiding in the closet of his home in Redcliffe and possibly taking his family sword and then helping him and his sister (or not)? What about finding that lyrium smuggling mage Godwin hiding in a cupboard that you can choose to smuggle lyrium for? Getting permission for Dagna to join the circle? Finding Danayla the wife of a Dalish man who had turned into a werewolf? Clearing a demon out of the abandoned orphanage in the Alienage alongside the blind Templar Ser Otto? None of these things ring a bell at all?
 

I know we have very different tastes when it comes to quests but what are some sidequests (aside from the companion ones) in DA:I that you found good or memorable?

[AresKeith]

It would have been cool if some of those wartable missions had been actual quests you could do. It would have been a lot more fun than finding goats and lost rings...

 

Some of the wartable missions possibly were going to be actual quests but had to be reduced due to lack of time to implement all of them

[AresKeith]

This argument reminds me a lot of those idiots who said that, for instance, ME3's Elcor Extraction mission "should have been" a real mission. You're not proposing anything that dumb, of course, but it still seems to rely on the same category mistake.

 

To be fair though the Elcor mission did kinda give the sense that it was gonna lead to us actually going on the planet which the whole full on cutscene, similar to the Barla Von mission

[midnight tea]

You don't remember talking to Filda the widow and finding her son Ruck in the deep roads insane and corrupted and being able to choose whether to kill him or not and whether to lie to his mother about it? You don't remember the crime wave quests for Slim Couldry the elf-blooded human in Denerim? Zerlinda having to abandon her baby in the deep roads, reconcile with her father, or be taken in by the chantry? Finding Bevin hiding in the closet of his home in Redcliffe and possibly taking his family sword and then helping him and his sister (or not)? What about finding that lyrium smuggling mage Godwin hiding in a cupboard that you can choose to smuggle lyrium for? Getting permission for Dagna to join the circle? Finding Danayla the wife of a Dalish man who had turned into a werewolf? Clearing a demon out of the abandoned orphanage in the Alienage alongside the blind Templar Ser Otto? None of these things ring a bell at all?
 

I know we have very different tastes when it comes to quests but what are some sidequests (aside from the companion ones) in DA:I that you found good or memorable?

 

You must've played DAO quite a few time, ey?  Well, if if you actually play through various RPGs in a short time (I played 3 in last 3-4 months and just returned back to playing ESO), a lot of these quests tend to blend with one another.

 

For me the strength of both DAO and DAI lies in companions and NPCs closer to crit path as well as a delightful puzzle of a story and mystery we see unraveling before our eyes - the rest is there to either fill in the gaps, says something about the world or be some sort of wink.

 

It's not that I don't like or don't care about memorable minor NPCs - the more the merrier, and DAO, like others has its moments, but... I think I just sit too much into storytelling and story creation to enjoy, say, Zerlinda's or Ruck's story, which for me were really short and didn't have much depth. Yes, it had many choices, but not that much depth. They don't lead anywhere much, they're there for expository reasons. And yes, in many regards there's actually more depth in Inquisition's side-quests, even if less interpersonal drama - tracking the Red lyrium mines, establishing order, organizing things, finding allies. We don't just fight Freemen of The Dales in Exalted Planes - we see them smuggling lyrium and making deals with Red Templars in Emerald Graves, while at the same time capturing peasants and sending them to Emprise du Lion's massive red lyrium mine. Documents we find on smugglers also help us track Samson and that gives Dagna a chance to shine and become more important than she ever was in DAO. A lot of smaller and bigger things or quests are interconnected like that, which - like many things stemming from origin stories in DAO - is what I enjoy, as they add depth to the story. 

 

As for emotional little moments in DAI? Seeing the mistake of sending Jana with Wardens, for example. A sad display of self-hatred from adult Connor when we speak with him. His and Lysas' fate in future Redcliffe. Finding out that Oculara skulls are made of Tranquils. An endearing endurance of little spirit trying to fulfill Telana's last wish in JoH. Speaking of spirts - the whole Command/Pomposity spirit quest is very enjoyable, especially with Cole and Solas in the team. Imshael's encounter could be better, but for what we have it's pretty hilarious. Also, the whole Sutherland Company quest is pretty enjoyable - a mix of interactions and war table, resulting in Inky saving (or failing to save) Inquisition's crew of adventurers.

[KaiserShep]

To be fair though the Elcor mission did kinda give the sense that it was gonna lead to us actually going on the planet which the whole full on cutscene, similar to the Barla Von mission

 

 

I think what Mass Effect 3 was sorely missing was giving some credit to some of the greatest heroes the galaxy had to offer: probes. Seriously, those probes did it all. They scanned for things, they retrieved hard to find artifacts and could even rescue elcor commandos.

[AresKeith]

I think what Mass Effect 3 was sorely missing was giving some credit to some of the greatest heroes the galaxy had to offer: probes. Seriously, those probes did it all. They scanned for things, they retrieved hard to find artifacts and could even rescue elcor commandos.

 

Those probes could probably kill Reapers

[Nefla]

You must've played DAO quite a few time, ey?  Well, if if you actually play through various RPGs in a short time (I played 3 in last 3-4 months and just returned back to playing ESO), a lot of these quests tend to blend with one another.

 

For me the strength of both DAO and DAI lies in companions and NPCs closer to crit path as well as a delightful puzzle of a story and mystery we see unraveling before our eyes - the rest is there to either fill in the gaps, says something about the world or be some sort of wink.

 

It's not that I don't like or don't care about memorable minor NPCs - the more the merrier, and DAO, like others has its moments, but... I think I just sit too much into storytelling and story creation to enjoy, say, Zerlinda's or Ruck's story, which for me were really short and didn't have much depth. Yes, it had many choices, but not that much depth. They don't lead anywhere much, they're there for expository reasons. And yes, in many regards there's actually more depth in Inquisition's side-quests, even if less interpersonal drama - tracking the Red lyrium mines, establishing order, organizing things, finding allies. We don't just fight Freemen of The Dales in Exalted Planes - we see them smuggling lyrium and making deals with Red Templars in Emerald Graves, while at the same time capturing peasants and sending them to Emprise du Lion's massive red lyrium mine. Documents we find on smugglers also help us track Samson and that gives Dagna a chance to shine and become more important than she ever was in DAO. A lot of smaller and bigger things or quests are interconnected like that, which - like many things stemming from origin stories in DAO - is what I enjoy, as they add depth to the story. 

 

As for emotional little moments in DAI? Seeing the mistake of sending Jana with Wardens, for example. A sad display of self-hatred from adult Connor when we speak with him. His and Lysas' fate in future Redcliffe. Finding out that Oculara skulls are made of Tranquils. An endearing endurance of little spirit trying to fulfill Telana's last wish in JoH. Speaking of spirts - the whole Command/Pomposity spirit quest is very enjoyable, especially with Cole and Solas in the team. Imshael's encounter could be better, but for what we have it's pretty hilarious. Also, the whole Sutherland Company quest is pretty enjoyable - a mix of interactions and war table, resulting in Inky saving (or failing to save) Inquisition's crew of adventurers.

Hm...I didn't find any of that stuff enjoyable. I suppose it's cool that there was some connection between them but for me I need to feel something, I need something personal (and I liked the ones that taught me about the world/lore/culture). Seeing the same group of enemies doing their nefarious deeds in multiple places doesn't do anything for me, especially when I can't talk to any of them and there are no choices to make I never played JoH so I don't know about the quests it has. I know a lot of people love the style of sidequests in DA:I but for me it's just frustrating because I find them "ok" at best but never enjoyable or something I look forward to and instead of having some quests be the new style and some be the old style, they're all the new style. Kotor, Jade Empire, DA:O, DA2, ME 1, ME2, and SWtOR all had the kind of quests I like but I'm sad that era is over now

[Addictress]

Hm...I didn't find any of that stuff enjoyable. I suppose it's cool that there was some connection between them but for me I need to feel something, I need something personal (and I liked the ones that taught me about the world/lore/culture). Seeing the same group of enemies doing their nefarious deeds in multiple places doesn't do anything for me, especially when I can't talk to any of them and there are no choices to make I never played JoH so I don't know about the quests it has. I know a lot of people love the style of sidequests in DA:I but for me it's just frustrating because I find them "ok" at best but never enjoyable or something I look forward to and instead of having some quests be the new style and some be the old style, they're all the new style. Kotor, Jade Empire, DA:O, DA2, ME 1, ME2, and SWtOR all had the kind of quests I like but I'm sad that era is over now

Jaws of Hakkon is great. As with Descent and Trespasser, you can tell they added some more things in JoH based on player feedback.

 

GAAH COME OUT WITH DA4 ALREADY GAH

[Nefla]

Jaws of Hakkon is great. As with Descent and Trespasser, you can tell they added some more things in JoH based on player feedback.

 

GAAH COME OUT WITH DA4 ALREADY GAH

Watching a let's play for a few hours let me know it wasn't for me >.<

 

As for DA4, I just want to know if the protagonist will be the inquisitor or someone new

[Addictress]

Watching a let's play for a few hours let me know it wasn't for me >.<

 

As for DA4, I just want to know if the protagonist will be the inquisitor or someone new

I hope they get a dual protagonist as CardButton suggested.

[Nefla]

I hope they get a dual protagonist as CardButton suggested.

I'm not really interested in that, but I want to know one way or the other so I can either get my hopes up or hit the road lol. Right now I'm in a grumpy and skeptical holding pattern

[Abyss108]

You don't remember talking to Filda the widow and finding her son Ruck in the deep roads insane and corrupted and being able to choose whether to kill him or not and whether to lie to his mother about it? You don't remember the crime wave quests for Slim Couldry the elf-blooded human in Denerim? Zerlinda having to abandon her baby in the deep roads, reconcile with her father, or be taken in by the chantry? Finding Bevin hiding in the closet of his home in Redcliffe and possibly taking his family sword and then helping him and his sister (or not)? What about finding that lyrium smuggling mage Godwin hiding in a cupboard that you can choose to smuggle lyrium for? Getting permission for Dagna to join the circle? Finding Danayla the wife of a Dalish man who had turned into a werewolf? Clearing a demon out of the abandoned orphanage in the Alienage alongside the blind Templar Ser Otto? None of these things ring a bell at all?
 

I know we have very different tastes when it comes to quests but what are some sidequests (aside from the companion ones) in DA:I that you found good or memorable?

 

Nope, as I said, I remember Dagna. I also remember Gheyna. That's it for side quests.

 

I don't think the Inquisition ones were better, I think they were equally forgettable. I could name an entire list of war table missions I remember, however I'm not sure it's a fair test. Inquisition is much more recent, Of course I remember more. I do prefer the wartable to side quests however, and suspect I will still remember everything in there a lot better than any actual side quest.

 

Basically, all the sidequests were forgetable, the camera angles didn't magically make the Origins ones better.

[Nefla]

Nope, as I said, I remember Dagna. I also remember Gheyna. That's it for side quests.

 

I don't think the Inquisition ones were better, I think they were equally forgettable. I could name an entire list of war table missions I remember, however I'm not sure it's a fair test. Inquisition is much more recent, Of course I remember more. I do prefer the wartable to side quests however, and suspect I will still remember everything in there a lot better than any actual side quest.

 

Basically, all the sidequests were forgetable, the camera angles didn't magically make the Origins ones better.

The camera angles don't hurt though, I strongly prefer a closeup to a zoomed out conversation. I also liked having different choices or ways to resolve each one What specific game or type of game has sidequests that you like? I think we can agree that some improvement is in order when it comes to side quests.

[Abyss108]

The camera angles don't hurt though, I strongly prefer a closeup to a zoomed out conversation. I also liked having different choices or ways to resolve each one What specific game or type of game has sidequests that you like? I think we can agree that some improvement is in order when it comes to side quests.

 

Yup, they don't really hurt. They don't improve anything for me either. Though I think I actually prefer the game without them for minor content. 

 

The games that have side quests I like are ones that work them into progressing the main plot. Ones like Baldur's Gate 2, and maybe Shadowrun counts. DA2 is very similar to Baldur's Gate 2 in chapter 1.

 

The reason the wartable worked, was because it made sense as Inquisitors I reading various letters and getting reports from my advisors and planning what to do with my troops. It made me more involved in the main game, and I cared about what happened in the quests because it directly effected my power and influence.

 

Basically, I hate side quests that have nothing to do with the main plot. I don't watch a movie expecting there to be a ten minute break in the middle, where the characters go on an adventure which is completely unrelated to anything else in the movie. Same with my games.

[correctamundo]

It would have been cool if some of those wartable missions had been actual quests you could do. It would have been a lot more fun than finding goats and lost rings...

 

Some of them are actually.

[Nefla]

Yup, they don't really hurt. They don't improve anything for me either. Though I think I actually prefer the game without them for minor content. 

 

The games that have side quests I like are ones that work them into progressing the main plot. Ones like Baldur's Gate 2, and maybe Shadowrun counts. DA2 is very similar to Baldur's Gate 2 in chapter 1.

 

The reason the wartable worked, was because it made sense as Inquisitors I reading various letters and getting reports from my advisors and planning what to do with my troops. It made me more involved in the main game, and I cared about what happened in the quests because it directly effected my power and influence.

 

Basically, I hate side quests that have nothing to do with the main plot. I don't watch a movie expecting there to be a ten minute break in the middle, where the characters go on an adventure which is completely unrelated to anything else in the movie. Same with my games.

I'm definitely the opposite, I hate the zoomed out camera (which is why I can't stand playing games with an isometric camera)

 

The only one of the three games you listed that I've played is DA2, I'm not sure what you mean by sidequests that further the main plot (wouldn't that be a main quest?). Like optional objectives when doing the main quests?

 

For me the wartable was so removed from the actual game, I felt a big disconnect there. A lot of the storylines seemed cool though and I wish we'd been able to experience them firsthand instead of reading about them

 

In a game I'm definitely all about frolicking off into the distance and doing whatever random quests that please me "what's that, I need to warn the Jarl of Whiterun about dragons? Sounds like it's time to join the thieves guild and forget about the Jarl for 20 hours!" As long as the storyline behind the sidequest is good, the characters are interesting or sympathetic, there are multiple outcomes, roleplaying opportunities, etc...I don't care if the quest is relevant to the main plot or not. DA:I was frustrating to me in that there was a ton of space but nothing in that space that appealed to me. I want to explore and meet interesting people, do fun things, find awesome and cool looking gear, etc...All exploration got me in DA:I was a ton silence and combat that I didn't enjoy.   

 

Some of them are actually.

What do you mean? The ones where you use the wartable to clear rubble so you can access a different area or..?

[correctamundo]

@Nefla: I mean like the Sutherland crew.

[Abyss108]

I'm definitely the opposite, I hate the zoomed out camera (which is why I can't stand playing games with an isometric camera)

 

The only one of the three games you listed that I've played is DA2, I'm not sure what you mean by sidequests that further the main plot (wouldn't that be a main quest?). Like optional objectives when doing the main quests?

 

For me the wartable was so removed from the actual game, I felt a big disconnect there. A lot of the storylines seemed cool though and I wish we'd been able to experience them firsthand instead of reading about them

 

In a game I'm definitely all about frolicking off into the distance and doing whatever random quests that please me "what's that, I need to warn the Jarl of Whiterun about dragons? Sounds like it's time to join the thieves guild and forget about the Jarl for 20 hours!" As long as the storyline behind the sidequest is good, the characters are interesting or sympathetic, there are multiple outcomes, roleplaying opportunities, etc...I don't care if the quest is relevant to the main plot or not. DA:I was frustrating to me in that there was a ton of space but nothing in that space that appealed to me. I want to explore and meet interesting people, do fun things, find awesome and cool looking gear, etc...All exploration got me in DA:I was a ton silence and combat that I didn't enjoy. 

 

I mean games where I have an incharacter reason to run off and do side quests. Eg. DA2 you have to gain a ton of money, so it makes sense to be taking random jobs from anyone who offers to pay well. In Inquisition, you are trying to increase your power/influence/recruits so the various wartable quests make sense (some of the real side quests aren't as great). As opposed to trying to hook up Gheyna with her boyfriend whilst you are supposed to be stopping an advancing army. I can't stand games where you go off and frolic because it just makes me feel completely disconnected from the actual plot.

 

I actually hate exploration RPGs like Skyrim, and was really concerned when they said Dragon Age was copying that style, but it really worked for me. The way the main plot was written made me care about all those random side areas, as opposed to other games where the entire thing feels pointless. They felt alive in DA because they related to the plot, in other games they just feel dead and filled with moving mannequins to me.

 

I love both isometric games and 3D cinematic ones. Ones closer to a book, ones closer to a movie, but both books and movies can tell a great story so I'm fine with either.

[vbibbi]

There were a ton of NPCs in DA:O that were memorable and that I cared about. They had names, stories, I could see their faces, their quests enhanced the atmosphere and the lore of the place, I loved it. I would not be able to pick any DA:I NPC that you meed as part of a sidequest out of a lineup or tell you what their quest was. Each origin alone had a ton of characters that gave me a connection to the scenario and the impression of a living world. People like Zerlinda (the daughter from a mining family who had a baby with a casteless and was told to abandon him to die in the deeproads or live and die as a casteless herself) put a human(or dwarf lol) face on the situation for me and I loved that many of the DA:O quests like that had multiple ways to resolve (including being able to have Brother Burkel take her into his makeshift chantry if you did his quest previously). Chasing notes around the desert or destroying a bunch of mooks and some red lyrium just doesn't compare in my eyes.

Exactly. Speaking to a person and getting their backstory is 100% more effective for me than reading 20 codices about the same thing.

They could have made rifts more rare, made each one a big deal (similar to dragon encounters) with difficult enemies, made them an actual danger to the people nearby. They shouldn't have had people living next to them as if nothing was wrong for example and closing one should have been a big deal. Instead they made them a plentiful and pointless chore. There's no reason to do it since they don't actually endanger anyone and the demons helpfully stay close to them. The only reason to do it is to grind power. Enemy variety isn't something that matters to me and the DA:I combat is not enjoyable so demon selection means nothing to me. DA:O had less combat and no power requirement that forced you to grind boring tasks.

Yup, exactly what I said. I would have thought they would follow the standard Bioware formula: this could have been like getting Star Maps from each world in KotOR. There's one major rift in each zone, and in order to clear it we have to perform all of these other tasks to reach it. By having these small and endless rifts everywhere, it really just felt like a chore to complete and a grind for power.  
  
And? Not every task might have been collecting herbs specifically but they all had the same mechanic but without the packaging of character interaction, interesting storyline and so on. Find a ring, escort a Halla/goat/druffalo, go here, kill X, etc...none of that is interesting on its' own.

So many of these quests, regardless of content, just had no interaction with other people. And companions rarely chimed in with any input. So when we have tons of these in the huge maps, it felt very isolating and empty.    
   
Go to zone, read note after note that says "the inquisition is on to us, move to the next spot," kill whoever's at that pot with no dialogue or interaction, read the next note, repeat. It's just more boring insubstantial tasks strung together. The only one that was slightly interesting to me was the Crestwood one but even that fell flat compared to what I would expect from BioWare's other games. I don't care about looking at pretty maps and I don't like the combat so unless the quest has some substance I will not enjoy it.

 This was especially egregious to me in Western Approach, as the initial reason Scout Harding tells us we're there is to investigate the red lyrium mining. And then ten feet into the map we discover the abandoned mine and discover mining operations have moved to EdL. Very anticlimactic and removes the reason for us exploring the rest of the map (if I'm roleplaying and justifying why I'm exploring a map rather than tracking down Cory). This is also an example of telling not showing: we enter the mine, find a note saying the mining has moved, the journal updates and quest done. We don't investigate the mine for clues, speak to escaped miners or Frederic about this, don't do anything other than read the convenient note left so that anyone wandering in can read where they've relocated to.

 

This claim, I'd like to point out, is a double-edged sword. The same way I may give them too much credit when it comes to DAI applied to the credit gives to the devs who created DAO.

Okay, but I'm not sure what you're referencing when giving credit to DAO that's not due. I'm not saying it's not there, I don't think I've headcanoned anything in my examples from DAO though.
 
 
Still, this is a matter that is irrelevant to my point - the fact remains that even you recognize that the way things are emphasize the themes that are there, fully and consciously explored in DAI.

Yes, I agree that the themes in DAI are very good, and one of its great strengths. It is done better than DAO or DA2, definitely. I really enjoyed the character of Cassandra, Leliana's crisis of fate, Justinia's spirit in the Fade, the revelations in the Temple of Mythal.
 
Also - we actually HAVE NPC scenes/dialogues where Inquisitor either admits or can admit that they hardly recognize anyone. And not even random NPCs, but people who work for them. First is the Iron Bull's scene just after we reach Skyhold - they talk with soldiers, and not only Inquisitor admits that he didn't think who those soldiers are or what is their perspective, the fact that Inquisitor doesn't have an ability to know every person they work with or help was a point of the scene.

Fair enough, good examples. I was thinking more along the lines of the nameless people we're saving, as that was what we were talking about, and how there are no distinct NPCs in Crestwood, etc. because that's intentional to show us in a position of power. I still don't agree with that, but you did provide good examples of the game showing this in other ways.
 
Another is Sutherland - you can totally have "uh, who are you?" reaction, and completely squander his potential by having Leliana send him to the kitchens or something.

True, although this falls under the murky area of not understanding the intention of our dialogue, for me. The first time I played the game I think I chose Leliana's option, so never got the rest of the quest line. When I selected her, I wasn't intentionally firing Sutherland, I thought I was keeping him safe since he was so green, but could use him later. Turned out not to be the case.
 

Totally untrue, especially in an ever expanding SERIES that entails more than games, none of which are self-contained. There were details both in DAO and DA2 that made only sense in context of what DAI has revealed.
 
Hindsight and recontextualization is a powerful storytelling tool too - how many people you think have replayed the game just to see Soals and what he said in new light, for example?
 
Or Flemeth, after the DAI reveal?

I agree and disagree (of course ) I agree that replaying DAI was fun to see Solas and Blackwall in a new light. But that is within one game, and replaying Bioware games has always been encouraged. I enjoy when something is built up over the course of the games, like Flemeth. But that build up should supplement the current game, not be mandatory to get the whole picture. For example, I was very frustrated in DA2 when we learned about red lyrium and the primeval thaig but never got any further information. I consider this poor storytelling because an important piece of lore was introduced but left dangling. If there had even been a little more information it could have been better, but for me it felt like a dropped plot line. I don't know if they always intended for it to remain a mystery until the next game or if it was cut due to rushed development time and the canceled DLC.

But when we're talking about visual/environmental storytelling, I think that should be entirely contained within the context of the current game. It's too subtle to pick up on and then not resolve until the next game, especially when game plots change so much during development. E.g. I really hope the lizardmen rock paintings are resolved in the next game, maybe linking them to the Descent journals we read, but it seems strange to me that these paintings show up that have never been referenced in any way before and no one makes any comment on them, and nothing is done about them (no research) so they're just there for the sake of being there.

Unlike other zones EP has been a regular battlefield long before the Breach appeared. Demons walk about the place with no restrictions (unlike demons from other zones) we can basically stumble upon them everywhere, not just around the rifts, and Solas basically tells us that the region has seen so much slaughter that demons will haunt it for ages to come. Whether the unpleasant "static" of a music signifies weakened Veil or just underlines just how utterly wasted that region is doesn't change the fact that it adds to the intentional unpleasantness of the zone. This is not a place made to look or feel pretty.


Fair enough, you have obviously picked up on the subtleties more than me. I really hate the ramparts in that map and always get turned around when trying to navigate them, so I rush through that section. I like the southern section a lot more.
 

True, I'd like to see more mats being brought by agents, but I'd like to point out that Trespasser actually made many war table spoils more interesting. And ever since the beginning we could only get some unique schematics or equipment just via war table missions.


Yeah I did appreciate that change from Trespasser. It's a shame that had to happen through paid DLC to come into effect, and nine-ish months after the game's release.
 

You realize that Skyhold customization and reskins for mounts are an entirely different area of the game that has absolutely nothing to do with the narrative and was never even touched by the writers? You cannot seriously confuse art department's work to others', especially that most of the time you're not even talking about gameplay, or story... but reskins! That is nowhere near the cost of crafting narrative.


Well, I was responding to the question of what aspects of the game I would get rid of in order to create more meaningful side quests. I wasn't providing a 1:1 calculation of which narrative elements I'd remove to be replaced with better narrative elements. This is all a hypothetical list of what I would have liked done and after the game has been shipped and won't be changed. And if I'm giving my wishes for how future games turn out, I would say that I wish Bioware would hire more writers to cover these elements and not rely so heavily on the visuals.
 
Besides, we heard from David Gaider that whether there would be less zones or not, it would have no impact on the length of the crit path.

Not that I don't believe this, but this honestly doesn't make much sense to me. So if they reduced the number of zones by, say, half, where would all of those resources have gone? I know Weekes or Laidlaw said that they acknowledge that Cory should have been more of a presence throughout the game. If we had cut some maps, couldn't we have added another critical quest involving Cory?
 

Majority of those war table missions has been written while most of the work of the game has already been done. And it may take resources to write them out... but how many resources do you think it takes to write the dialogue (minding the word budget), hire at least 2 or 3 VOs to voices (and then translate them and hire VOs for German or French VO and all the work that comes with it), designing NPCs, animating possible cutscenes, finding or building new place in the zone, designing enemies and rewards and so on?
 
Like... I am not a game dev, nor I claim to know much about dev work, but it doesn't take an expert to see some problems here.

I in no way want any Bioware employee to lose their job, but if we're talking about resources hypothetically, I would say reduce the staff dedicated to Skyhold customization, creating the zones, etc. in order to have resources for these quests. I know it's not realistic, and Bioware has to be competitive with other companies in their visual design, but to me, visual design took priority over narrative.
 
Also - there aren't even that many "ring quests" in DAI to begin with. There are 2 about rings specifically, but the entire amount of similar quests IS about 10. Really, at this point I have to ask whether you paid attention to any zone side-quest at all...

Okay, the ring quest category doesn't mean it has to involve a ring. It means the quest is basically "bring X back to me" or "read this note, go to this location, find X" and that's it.

I've pulled the list of sidequests from the wiki, ignoring requisition quests. I've also combined the war table quest with the quest we receive from Scout Harding, as they're the same thing and counting it twice isn't accurate. I've probably miscounted a few, but this is my analysis from the listed side quests.

Spoiler

Crestwood  12 quests

Still Waters (main side quest)
Capturing Caer Bronach
Burdens of Command
Holding Crestwood
Homecoming
The Naturalist
Wyrm Hole
High Stakes
Weeding Out Bandits
Rift at Caer Bronach
Rift near the North Gate
Rifts at Three Trout Farm

Kill X and return to me: 2
Fetch quest with minimal dialogue: 2
Camp quest: 1
Rift quest: 3

Emerald Graves 27 quests

Watcher's Reach Refugees (main side quest)
A Bear to Cross
A Corrupt General
A Deluded Chevalier
A Fallen Sister
A Lover's Promise
A Puppet Master
A Vicious Thug
Devotion
Fairbanks' Trust
Holding the Emerald Graves
Last Wishes
Map of Elgar'nan's Bastion
Map of Watcher's Pass
Motherly Encouragement
Noble Deeds, Noble Heart
Not Everyone's Free
Observing the Menace
The Freemen of the Dales
Victims of War
Rifts at the Cove
Rifts at the Pavilion
Rifts at the Reach
Rifts near the Sighs

Chateau d'Onterre
Chateau d'Onterre
Din'an Hanin
The Knights' Tomb
Villa Maurel
Safe Keeping

Map quest: 2
Kill X and return to me: 8
Fetch quest with minimal dialogue: 6
Camp quest: 1
Rift quest: 4

Emprise du Lion 22 quests

Take Back the Lion (main side quest)
The Corruption of Sahrnia
Quarry Quandary
Rocky Rescue
Red Captors
They Shall Not Pass
Call Me Imshael
Capturing Suledin Keep
Breeding Grounds
Words not Hollow
Valeska's Watch
Mama's Ring
Caged Confession
Sifting Through Rubble
Securing Safe Passage
Stalker
Turning the Tables
Rift on Frozen Water
Rift at Elfsblood Tower
Rifts at Drakon's Cleft
Rifts in the Springs

The Cradle of Sulevin
Ruined Blade

Kill X and return to me: 4
Fetch quest with minimal dialogue: 7
Camp quest: 1
Rift quest: 4

Exalted Plains  30 quests

Undead Ramparts to the West (main side quest)
A Dalish Perspective (main side quest)
For the Empire
Lay Rest the Eastern Ramparts
Calming Victory Rise
Lay Rest the Western Ramparts
Another Side, Another Story
No Word Back
Scattered Glyphs
Ghilan'nain's Grove
Holding the Exalted Plains
Map of Enavuris
Sketch of Enavuris River
Map of Halin'sulahn
By the Grace of the Dalish
From the Beyond
The Spoils of Desecration
A Well-Stocked Camp
The Golden Halla
Something to Prove
Someone to Lose
Pressed for Cache
A Father's Guidance
A Familiar Ring
Left to Grieve
Rifts in the Old Plains
Rifts in the Fens
Rifts on the Battlefield

Lost Temple of Dirthamen
God of Secrets
Runes in the Lost Temple

Map quest: 3
Kill X and return to me: 7
Fetch quest with minimal dialogue: 9
Camp quest: 1
Rift quest: 3

Fallow Mire 7 quests
Lost Souls (main side quest)
Beneath the Mire
Beacons in the Dark
Holding the Mire
Cabin Fever
These Demons Are Clever
Rifts in the Mire

Kill X and return to me: 1
Fetch quest with minimal dialogue: 3
Camp quest: 1
Rift quest: 1

Forbidden Oasis 10 quests

The Temple of Pride (main side quest)
A Prideful Place
The Cold Endured
The Fire Captured
The Spirit Calmed
Holding the Oasis
The Door in Par'as Cavern
What It's Worth
Rifts High and Low
Rifts in the Oasis

Kill X and return to me: 1
Fetch quest with minimal dialogue: 6
Camp quest: 1
Rift quest: 2

Hinterlands 47 quests
Master of Horses (main side quest)
In the Saddle
Farmland Security
Trouble with Wolves
The Mercenary Fortress
Deep Trouble
Templars to the West
Hunger Pangs
Apostates in Witchwood
East Road Bandits
In the Elements
An Advanced Treatment
A Rare Treatment
A Common Treatment
A Healing Hand
Holding the Hinterlands
Sketch of Calenhad's Foothold
Map to a Waterfall
Map of Farmland Cave
Bergrit's Claws
Playing with Fire
Shallow Breaths
Stone Dreams
Flowers for Senna
Love Waits
Blood Brothers
Open a Vein
The Ballad of Lord Woolsley
Praise the Herald of Andraste
Where the Druffalo Roam
Letter from a Lover
Conscientious Objector
Return Policy
Business Arrangements
Agrarian Apostate
Failure to Deliver
A Spirit in the Lake
Hinterland Who's Who
Strange Bedfellows
Safeguards Against Looters
My Lover's Phylactery
Rifts at the Foothold
Rifts on the Farm
Rifts in the Woods
Rifts on the Outskirts
Rifts at Dwarfson's Pass

Valammar
The Vault of Valammar

Map quest: 3
Kill X and return to me: 8
Fetch quest with minimal dialogue: 22
Camp quest: 1
Rift quest: 5

Hissing Wastes 10 quests
The Tomb of Fairel (main side quest)
Sand and Ruin (main side quest)
Holding the Hissing Wastes
Let's Slay the Beast
Field of Bones
Notes on the Wastes
Rifts at the Sunstop Mountains
Rifts near the Canyon
Rifts near the Cove
Rifts near the Sand Crags

Kill X and return to me: 3
Fetch quest with minimal dialogue: 1
Camp quest: 1
Rift quest: 4

Storm Coast 9 quests

Cleaning House
Wardens of the Coast
Red Water
Holding the Storm Coast
A Glowing Key
Keeping the Darkspawn Down
Sutherland and Company Missing
Rifts on the Coast
Rift at the Falls

Kill X and return to me: 3
Fetch quest with minimal dialogue: 1
Camp quest: 1
Rift quest: 2

Western Approach 19 quests

Draconology (main side quest)
Frederic's Livelihood (main side quest)
Assault on Griffon Wing Keep
Into the Approach
The Venatori
The Abyssal High Dragon
Hunting Patterns
How to Lure a Dragon
Sharper White Claws
Holding the Western Approach
Fortress Squatters
This Water Tastes Funny
On the Chantry Trail
Rifts in Sand and Dust
Rifts in the Canyons
Rifts in Echoback
Rifts off the Pass

Coracavus
The Trouble with Darkspawn
Still Ruins
A Tevinter Relic Hunt

Kill X and return to me: 4
Fetch quest with minimal dialogue: 3
Camp quest: 1
Rift quest: 4

So from these, Crestwood has 4 interesting quests, Emerald Graves has 10 (including the small dungeons Chateau d'Onterre, the Knight's Tomb and Villa Maurel, the latter two of which are really just more killing and reading notes) , EdL has 6, including the Cradle of Sulevin, Exalted Plains has 7 including the Lost Temple of Dirthamen, Fallow Mire has just the main quest, Forbidden Oasis doesn't have any, as I don't consider opening doors with shards and then fighting a generic pride demon an interesting quest, Hinterlands has 8, Hissing Wastes has one, if I'm counting discovering the lore of the surface dwarves and accessing Fairel's tomb as one enormous interesting quest, Storm Coast has 2 counting Sutherland's quest, which is really more of a Skyhold quest, and not counting the Warden diaries since nothing comes of it and it has no impact anywhere else, and Western Approach has 7 including the Still Ruins and Coracavus.

 

 
 

That's... not exactly honest thing you do here. Since we have Redcliffe both in DAO and DAI, why mention people from Crestwood - a much smaller and less significant village with smaller amount of inhabitants? Why not mention all the mages (tranquil we can hire, Lysas or Linnea) we can talk with extensively in DAI's Redcliffe, and that despite the fact that it's not any sort of bigger quest hub compared to DAO? What about Connor who we can actually talk too if he survived and can see turn into demon in future Redcliffe? What about inhabitants of Haven or Skyhold? All of them distinct personalities and stories, including at least 2 rather big a-holes we can either save or not bother.


How is comparing two separate areas dishonest? We're talking about NPCs in the games as a whole, so using the example of any one section of DAO with DAI is fair. Can I not use any of the NPCs in Orzammar because we don't visit Orzammar in DAI? Looking at DAI Redcliffe, we have the healer who asks us to pick up lots of herbs, the story teller who tells us about a spirit in a lake but then we never go back and tell her the legend is true or have any follow up, the old man who wants flowers on his wife's grave, Connor, who is one of the few good imports from previous games and gives some good dialogue, Linnea and Lysas who provide some information about the opinions of the Tevinter occupation, but that's only flavor dialogue and we can't actually do anything with them, the Tranquil we recruit as an agent, the smuggler we recruit as an agent. I guess that kid who owns Lord Woolesly is funny. DAO Redcliffe wins this comparison, to me. Each of the NPCs I mentioned there have a quest associated with them, multiple methods of solving the quest, and then the results of the quest impact the battle against the undead.
 
 
 
 
So we should ignore the fact that rifts in the Veil appeared even before the Breach and that the Breach - according to Solas, its creator - has weakened the Veil and the changes to it likely felt all across the world? The Breach isn't even that important to the story as the Veil as a whole is; at this point we don't even know if we're going to be defending or tearing it down in the next game, but we do know that it will be essential to the story, given that it's basically what created and guarantees existence of Thedas in shape as we know it and we just found out that its creator wants to get rid of it.
 
Heck, it's almost a character in itself now and in DAI at least, the Inquisitor is its appointed tender. Traveling the world and sealing rifts is their job now, as well as reason why the world needs them, or why the job is difficult, or perhaps even futile at the end.



I don't see how multiple rifts across the maps that don't actually impact their environment show how the Breach is affecting the world. There is a cult surrounding one rift, for Andraste's sake, and no one has been hurt by being so close to it. It is another case of telling and not showing, because apart from the rift blocking off Redcliffe and the Crestwood lake one, none of the rifts actually disrupt anything. I would have rather had the Breach just weaken the Veil and make it easier for demonic influence to spread. Kind of like the Hinterlands quest where we find that apprentice who tried summoning a demon because the Veil was weaker, or the envy demon's ability to infiltrate the templars.
 
 
 
 
What is odd is that you only mention Deep Roads, while most darkspawn has been lured on a surface by Archdemon. A lot of ambushes us on roads and a great deal of enemies we have to fight in various places throughout the game. Not that it's a bad point against the game - it was a game about the Blight and hordes of darskpawn attacking everything after all. I find it bizarre though that you try and make it look as something different than it was and somehow better than a large number of rifts. Those were the enemies designed to be shown to overwhelm us with numbers, even if for different reasons.


 There are supposedly endless hordes of darkspawn, so I think the idea was that if the majority of the horde hadn't been on the surface for the Blight, there would have been no way our small group could have gone as deep into enemy territory as we did.

 

You must've played DAO quite a few time, ey?  Well, if if you actually play through various RPGs in a short time (I played 3 in last 3-4 months and just returned back to playing ESO), a lot of these quests tend to blend with one another.
 
For me the strength of both DAO and DAI lies in companions and NPCs closer to crit path as well as a delightful puzzle of a story and mystery we see unraveling before our eyes - the rest is there to either fill in the gaps, says something about the world or be some sort of wink.


I've played DAO and DA2 more times than DAI, partially because DAI takes so long to complete. But I have played DAI six times, with no other games at the same time, and few of the NPCs stood out to me. Meanwhile, years later and NPCs in DAO and DA2 still stand out to me.
 
 
 
It's not that I don't like or don't care about memorable minor NPCs - the more the merrier, and DAO, like others has its moments, but... I think I just sit too much into storytelling and story creation to enjoy, say, Zerlinda's or Ruck's story, which for me were really short and didn't have much depth. Yes, it had many choices, but not that much depth. They don't lead anywhere much, they're there for expository reasons. And yes, in many regards there's actually more depth in Inquisition's side-quests, even if less interpersonal drama - tracking the Red lyrium mines, establishing order, organizing things, finding allies. We don't just fight Freemen of The Dales in Exalted Planes - we see them smuggling lyrium and making deals with Red Templars in Emerald Graves, while at the same time capturing peasants and sending them to Emprise du Lion's massive red lyrium mine. Documents we find on smugglers also help us track Samson and that gives Dagna a chance to shine and become more important than she ever was in DAO. A lot of smaller and bigger things or quests are interconnected like that, which - like many things stemming from origin stories in DAO - is what I enjoy, as they add depth to the story.



I think we're just going to disagree here. I can't see how convincing Zerlinda to abandon her baby to the Deep Roads or to convince her to start a new life on the surface, to convince Ruck's mother that he's dead, to avoid the shame he feels for living as a tainted shadow of a person, are less deep than discovering mines and organizing things. As I mentioned above, we're not even really tracking the red lyrium mines, there's no investigation, we just hop from one map to the next. We don't need to do anything except find the mines on the map to disrupt them, they're not hidden from us and we have to find a way in. And finding three letters about smugglers in order to access Samson's quest isn't deep, it's searching for three letters so that we can unlock the Temple of Dumat map.
 
 
 
As for emotional little moments in DAI? Seeing the mistake of sending Jana with Wardens, for example. A sad display of self-hatred from adult Connor when we speak with him. His and Lysas' fate in future Redcliffe. Finding out that Oculara skulls are made of Tranquils. An endearing endurance of little spirit trying to fulfill Telana's last wish in JoH. Speaking of spirts - the whole Command/Pomposity spirit quest is very enjoyable, especially with Cole and Solas in the team. Imshael's encounter could be better, but for what we have it's pretty hilarious. Also, the whole Sutherland Company quest is pretty enjoyable - a mix of interactions and war table, resulting in Inky saving (or failing to save) Inquisition's crew of adventurers.


 Jana was a good method of showing the consequences of our actions. Connor's cameo in Redcliffe village was good, but his appearance was extremely bugged in the bad future and I don't think that was ever resolved. So I never got any emotional impact from that, just confusion as to why the empty air was shouting in Connor's voice. Finding out the Tranquil were killed for the skulls was impactful, but then fell flat when there was never any reference to it ever again, Fiona was not questioned about her knowledge if she remained an ally, nothing came of this at all. Telana and the command spirit were good. Imshael was lame, IMO, and an example of how TME had all of its plots wasted or ignored. I don't expect too much from him since Gaxxkang and Xebenkeck didn't have much content to them, either.

 

Nope, as I said, I remember Dagna. I also remember Gheyna. That's it for side quests.
 
I don't think the Inquisition ones were better, I think they were equally forgettable. I could name an entire list of war table missions I remember, however I'm not sure it's a fair test. Inquisition is much more recent, Of course I remember more. I do prefer the wartable to side quests however, and suspect I will still remember everything in there a lot better than any actual side quest.
 
Basically, all the sidequests were forgetable, the camera angles didn't magically make the Origins ones better.

Again, I'll have to disagree. Nefla and I have both pointed out many memorable side characters and quests. The fact that you don't remember them doesn't make them forgettable, just that you focus on different things in your game playing experience.

[robertthebard]

You don't remember talking to Filda the widow and finding her son Ruck in the deep roads insane and corrupted and being able to choose whether to kill him or not and whether to lie to his mother about it? You don't remember the crime wave quests for Slim Couldry the elf-blooded human in Denerim? Zerlinda having to abandon her baby in the deep roads, reconcile with her father, or be taken in by the chantry? Finding Bevin hiding in the closet of his home in Redcliffe and possibly taking his family sword and then helping him and his sister (or not)? What about finding that lyrium smuggling mage Godwin hiding in a cupboard that you can choose to smuggle lyrium for? Getting permission for Dagna to join the circle? Finding Danayla the wife of a Dalish man who had turned into a werewolf? Clearing a demon out of the abandoned orphanage in the Alienage alongside the blind Templar Ser Otto? None of these things ring a bell at all?
 

I know we have very different tastes when it comes to quests but what are some sidequests (aside from the companion ones) in DA:I that you found good or memorable?

If one never played a rogue, one wouldn't remember the crime wave quests, because they wouldn't get them.  I seem to recall that they were gated to a rogue.  I had completed two games before I made the connection between Ruck and his mother, it was such a compelling quest.  I did the dwarf girl's baby quest once, and the same can be said for all the "chanter's board" style quests.  Once, for the achievement.  I have all the achievements, for the base game and DLC that I own, so I had to do them once.  However, I didn't have to do them again, and frankly, I didn't.

 

So finding a note pinned to a board is somehow more compelling than finding a note in a burnt out house?  Aren't both essentially "finding a note"?  You see, trying to push off a totally subjective view point as some kind of fact doesn't make it a fact, it just makes you come off as pompous.  It literally reads as "My opinion of these quests is so good that you should share it, and if you don't, you suck." 

 

To your last comment, I loved the Hissing Wastes.  Tons of speculation for everyone, that took the time to read the provided information, instead of rushing off to find the next baddie to clunk on the head.  I'm not saying that this is what you did, but there are people that did just that.  Not just in the Wastes either, but throughout the game, and then didn't find anything compelling, because they chose to ignore it, and so, it didnt' exist.

[robertthebard]

 

There were a ton of NPCs in DA:O that were memorable and that I cared about. They had names, stories, I could see their faces, their quests enhanced the atmosphere and the lore of the place, I loved it. I would not be able to pick any DA:I NPC that you meed as part of a sidequest out of a lineup or tell you what their quest was. Each origin alone had a ton of characters that gave me a connection to the scenario and the impression of a living world. People like Zerlinda (the daughter from a mining family who had a baby with a casteless and was told to abandon him to die in the deeproads or live and die as a casteless herself) put a human(or dwarf lol) face on the situation for me and I loved that many of the DA:O quests like that had multiple ways to resolve (including being able to have Brother Burkel take her into his makeshift chantry if you did his quest previously). Chasing notes around the desert or destroying a bunch of mooks and some red lyrium just doesn't compare in my eyes.

Exactly. Speaking to a person and getting their backstory is 100% more effective for me than reading 20 codices about the same thing.

They could have made rifts more rare, made each one a big deal (similar to dragon encounters) with difficult enemies, made them an actual danger to the people nearby. They shouldn't have had people living next to them as if nothing was wrong for example and closing one should have been a big deal. Instead they made them a plentiful and pointless chore. There's no reason to do it since they don't actually endanger anyone and the demons helpfully stay close to them. The only reason to do it is to grind power. Enemy variety isn't something that matters to me and the DA:I combat is not enjoyable so demon selection means nothing to me. DA:O had less combat and no power requirement that forced you to grind boring tasks.

Yup, exactly what I said. I would have thought they would follow the standard Bioware formula: this could have been like getting Star Maps from each world in KotOR. There's one major rift in each zone, and in order to clear it we have to perform all of these other tasks to reach it. By having these small and endless rifts everywhere, it really just felt like a chore to complete and a grind for power.  
  
And? Not every task might have been collecting herbs specifically but they all had the same mechanic but without the packaging of character interaction, interesting storyline and so on. Find a ring, escort a Halla/goat/druffalo, go here, kill X, etc...none of that is interesting on its' own.

So many of these quests, regardless of content, just had no interaction with other people. And companions rarely chimed in with any input. So when we have tons of these in the huge maps, it felt very isolating and empty.    
   
Go to zone, read note after note that says "the inquisition is on to us, move to the next spot," kill whoever's at that pot with no dialogue or interaction, read the next note, repeat. It's just more boring insubstantial tasks strung together. The only one that was slightly interesting to me was the Crestwood one but even that fell flat compared to what I would expect from BioWare's other games. I don't care about looking at pretty maps and I don't like the combat so unless the quest has some substance I will not enjoy it.

 This was especially egregious to me in Western Approach, as the initial reason Scout Harding tells us we're there is to investigate the red lyrium mining. And then ten feet into the map we discover the abandoned mine and discover mining operations have moved to EdL. Very anticlimactic and removes the reason for us exploring the rest of the map (if I'm roleplaying and justifying why I'm exploring a map rather than tracking down Cory). This is also an example of telling not showing: we enter the mine, find a note saying the mining has moved, the journal updates and quest done. We don't investigate the mine for clues, speak to escaped miners or Frederic about this, don't do anything other than read the convenient note left so that anyone wandering in can read where they've relocated to.
[/quote]
 

This claim, I'd like to point out, is a double-edged sword. The same way I may give them too much credit when it comes to DAI applied to the credit gives to the devs who created DAO.

Okay, but I'm not sure what you're referencing when giving credit to DAO that's not due. I'm not saying it's not there, I don't think I've headcanoned anything in my examples from DAO though.
 
 
Still, this is a matter that is irrelevant to my point - the fact remains that even you recognize that the way things are emphasize the themes that are there, fully and consciously explored in DAI.

Yes, I agree that the themes in DAI are very good, and one of its great strengths. It is done better than DAO or DA2, definitely. I really enjoyed the character of Cassandra, Leliana's crisis of fate, Justinia's spirit in the Fade, the revelations in the Temple of Mythal.
 
Also - we actually HAVE NPC scenes/dialogues where Inquisitor either admits or can admit that they hardly recognize anyone. And not even random NPCs, but people who work for them. First is the Iron Bull's scene just after we reach Skyhold - they talk with soldiers, and not only Inquisitor admits that he didn't think who those soldiers are or what is their perspective, the fact that Inquisitor doesn't have an ability to know every person they work with or help was a point of the scene.

Fair enough, good examples. I was thinking more along the lines of the nameless people we're saving, as that was what we were talking about, and how there are no distinct NPCs in Crestwood, etc. because that's intentional to show us in a position of power. I still don't agree with that, but you did provide good examples of the game showing this in other ways.
 
Another is Sutherland - you can totally have "uh, who are you?" reaction, and completely squander his potential by having Leliana send him to the kitchens or something.

True, although this falls under the murky area of not understanding the intention of our dialogue, for me. The first time I played the game I think I chose Leliana's option, so never got the rest of the quest line. When I selected her, I wasn't intentionally firing Sutherland, I thought I was keeping him safe since he was so green, but could use him later. Turned out not to be the case.
 

Totally untrue, especially in an ever expanding SERIES that entails more than games, none of which are self-contained. There were details both in DAO and DA2 that made only sense in context of what DAI has revealed.
 
Hindsight and recontextualization is a powerful storytelling tool too - how many people you think have replayed the game just to see Soals and what he said in new light, for example?
 
Or Flemeth, after the DAI reveal?

I agree and disagree (of course ) I agree that replaying DAI was fun to see Solas and Blackwall in a new light. But that is within one game, and replaying Bioware games has always been encouraged. I enjoy when something is built up over the course of the games, like Flemeth. But that build up should supplement the current game, not be mandatory to get the whole picture. For example, I was very frustrated in DA2 when we learned about red lyrium and the primeval thaig but never got any further information. I consider this poor storytelling because an important piece of lore was introduced but left dangling. If there had even been a little more information it could have been better, but for me it felt like a dropped plot line. I don't know if they always intended for it to remain a mystery until the next game or if it was cut due to rushed development time and the canceled DLC.

But when we're talking about visual/environmental storytelling, I think that should be entirely contained within the context of the current game. It's too subtle to pick up on and then not resolve until the next game, especially when game plots change so much during development. E.g. I really hope the lizardmen rock paintings are resolved in the next game, maybe linking them to the Descent journals we read, but it seems strange to me that these paintings show up that have never been referenced in any way before and no one makes any comment on them, and nothing is done about them (no research) so they're just there for the sake of being there.

Unlike other zones EP has been a regular battlefield long before the Breach appeared. Demons walk about the place with no restrictions (unlike demons from other zones) we can basically stumble upon them everywhere, not just around the rifts, and Solas basically tells us that the region has seen so much slaughter that demons will haunt it for ages to come. Whether the unpleasant "static" of a music signifies weakened Veil or just underlines just how utterly wasted that region is doesn't change the fact that it adds to the intentional unpleasantness of the zone. This is not a place made to look or feel pretty.


Fair enough, you have obviously picked up on the subtleties more than me. I really hate the ramparts in that map and always get turned around when trying to navigate them, so I rush through that section. I like the southern section a lot more.
 

True, I'd like to see more mats being brought by agents, but I'd like to point out that Trespasser actually made many war table spoils more interesting. And ever since the beginning we could only get some unique schematics or equipment just via war table missions.


Yeah I did appreciate that change from Trespasser. It's a shame that had to happen through paid DLC to come into effect, and nine-ish months after the game's release.
 

You realize that Skyhold customization and reskins for mounts are an entirely different area of the game that has absolutely nothing to do with the narrative and was never even touched by the writers? You cannot seriously confuse art department's work to others', especially that most of the time you're not even talking about gameplay, or story... but reskins! That is nowhere near the cost of crafting narrative.


Well, I was responding to the question of what aspects of the game I would get rid of in order to create more meaningful side quests. I wasn't providing a 1:1 calculation of which narrative elements I'd remove to be replaced with better narrative elements. This is all a hypothetical list of what I would have liked done and after the game has been shipped and won't be changed. And if I'm giving my wishes for how future games turn out, I would say that I wish Bioware would hire more writers to cover these elements and not rely so heavily on the visuals.
 
Besides, we heard from David Gaider that whether there would be less zones or not, it would have no impact on the length of the crit path.

Not that I don't believe this, but this honestly doesn't make much sense to me. So if they reduced the number of zones by, say, half, where would all of those resources have gone? I know Weekes or Laidlaw said that they acknowledge that Cory should have been more of a presence throughout the game. If we had cut some maps, couldn't we have added another critical quest involving Cory?
 

Majority of those war table missions has been written while most of the work of the game has already been done. And it may take resources to write them out... but how many resources do you think it takes to write the dialogue (minding the word budget), hire at least 2 or 3 VOs to voices (and then translate them and hire VOs for German or French VO and all the work that comes with it), designing NPCs, animating possible cutscenes, finding or building new place in the zone, designing enemies and rewards and so on?
 
Like... I am not a game dev, nor I claim to know much about dev work, but it doesn't take an expert to see some problems here.

I in no way want any Bioware employee to lose their job, but if we're talking about resources hypothetically, I would say reduce the staff dedicated to Skyhold customization, creating the zones, etc. in order to have resources for these quests. I know it's not realistic, and Bioware has to be competitive with other companies in their visual design, but to me, visual design took priority over narrative.
 
Also - there aren't even that many "ring quests" in DAI to begin with. There are 2 about rings specifically, but the entire amount of similar quests IS about 10. Really, at this point I have to ask whether you paid attention to any zone side-quest at all...

Okay, the ring quest category doesn't mean it has to involve a ring. It means the quest is basically "bring X back to me" or "read this note, go to this location, find X" and that's it.

I've pulled the list of sidequests from the wiki, ignoring requisition quests.

Spoiler

Crestwood
Still Waters (main side quest)
Capturing Caer Bronach
Burdens of Command
Holding Crestwood
Homecoming
The Naturalist
Wyrm Hole
High Stakes
Weeding Out Bandits

Rift at Caer Bronach
Rift near the North Gate
Rifts at Three Trout Farm

Emerald Graves
Watcher's Reach Refugees (main side quest)
A Bear to Cross
A Corrupt General
A Deluded Chevalier
A Fallen Sister
A Lover's Promise
A Puppet Master
A Vicious Thug
Devotion
Fairbanks' Trust
Fairbanks Patrol Under Attack (unmarked quest)
Holding the Emerald Graves
Last Wishes
Map of Elgar'nan's Bastion
Map of Watcher's Pass
Motherly Encouragement
Noble Deeds, Noble Heart
Not Everyone's Free
Parson's Battered Notebook (unmarked quest)
Observing the Menace
The Freemen of the Dales
The Tiniest Cave (unmarked quest)
Victims of War

Rifts at the Cove
Rifts at the Pavilion
Rifts at the Reach
Rifts near the Sighs

Chateau d'Onterre
Chateau d'Onterre
Din'an Hanin
The Knights' Tomb
Villa Maurel
Safe Keeping
Emprise du Lion
Take Back the Lion (main side quest)
A Timely Intervention
The Corruption of Sahrnia
Quarry Quandary
Rocky Rescue
Red Captors
They Shall Not Pass
Call Me Imshael
Capturing Suledin Keep
Breeding Grounds
Words not Hollow
Valeska's Watch
Mama's Ring
Caged Confession
Sifting Through Rubble
Securing Safe Passage
Stalker
Turning the Tables

Rift on Frozen Water
Rift at Elfsblood Tower
Rifts at Drakon's Cleft
Rifts in the Springs

The Cradle of Sulevin
Ruined Blade
Exalted Plains
Undead Ramparts to the West (main side quest)
A Dalish Perspective (main side quest)
Silence on the Plains
For the Empire
Lay Rest the Eastern Ramparts
Calming Victory Rise
Lay Rest the Western Ramparts
Another Side, Another Story
No Word Back
Scattered Glyphs
Ghilan'nain's Grove
Holding the Exalted Plains
Map of Enavuris
Sketch of Enavuris River
Map of Halin'sulahn
By the Grace of the Dalish
From the Beyond
The Spoils of Desecration
A Well-Stocked Camp
The Golden Halla
Something to Prove
Someone to Lose
Pressed for Cache
A Father's Guidance
A Familiar Ring
Left to Grieve

Rifts in the Old Plains
Rifts in the Fens
Rifts on the Battlefield

Lost Temple of Dirthamen
God of Secrets
Runes in the Lost Temple
Fallow Mire
Lost Souls (main side quest)
Beneath the Mire
Beacons in the Dark
Holding the Mire
Cabin Fever
These Demons Are Clever

Rifts in the Mire

Forbidden Oasis
The Temple of Pride (main side quest)
Shard Collector
A Prideful Place
The Cold Endured
The Fire Captured
The Spirit Calmed
Holding the Oasis
The Door in Par'as Cavern
What It's Worth

Rifts High and Low
Rifts in the Oasis


Hinterlands
Master of Horses (main side quest)
In the Saddle
Farmland Security
Horses for the Inquisition
Trouble with Wolves
The Mercenary Fortress
Deep Trouble
Templars to the West
Hunger Pangs
Apostates in Witchwood
East Road Bandits
In the Elements
An Advanced Treatment
A Rare Treatment
A Common Treatment
A Healing Hand
Holding the Hinterlands
Sketch of Calenhad's Foothold
Map to a Waterfall
Map of Farmland Cave
Bergrit's Claws
Playing with Fire
Shallow Breaths
Stone Dreams
Flowers for Senna
Love Waits
Blood Brothers
Open a Vein
The Ballad of Lord Woolsley
Praise the Herald of Andraste
Where the Druffalo Roam
Letter from a Lover
Conscientious Objector
Return Policy
Business Arrangements
Agrarian Apostate
Failure to Deliver
A Spirit in the Lake
Hinterland Who's Who
Strange Bedfellows
Safeguards Against Looters
My Lover's Phylactery

Rifts at the Foothold
Rifts on the Farm
Rifts in the Woods
Rifts on the Outskirts
Rifts at Dwarfson's Pass

Valammar
The Vault of Valammar
Hissing Wastes
The Tomb of Fairel (main side quest)
Sand and Ruin (main side quest)
Holding the Hissing Wastes
Let's Slay the Beast
Field of Bones
Notes on the Wastes

Rifts at the Sunstop Mountains
Rifts near the Canyon
Rifts near the Cove
Rifts near the Sand Crags

Storm Coast
Vigilance on the Coast
Cleaning House
Wardens of the Coast
Red Water
Holding the Storm Coast
A Glowing Key
Keeping the Darkspawn Down
Sutherland and Company Missing

Rifts on the Coast
Rift at the Falls

Western Approach
Draconology (main side quest)
Frederic's Livelihood (main side quest)
Assault on Griffon Wing Keep
Into the Approach
The Venatori
The Abyssal High Dragon
Hunting Patterns
How to Lure a Dragon
Sharper White Claws
Holding the Western Approach
Fortress Squatters
This Water Tastes Funny
On the Chantry Trail

Rifts in Sand and Dust
Rifts in the Canyons
Rifts in Echoback
Rifts off the Pass

Coracavus
The Trouble with Darkspawn
Still Ruins
A Tevinter Relic Hunt

 
 

That's... not exactly honest thing you do here. Since we have Redcliffe both in DAO and DAI, why mention people from Crestwood - a much smaller and less significant village with smaller amount of inhabitants? Why not mention all the mages (tranquil we can hire, Lysas or Linnea) we can talk with extensively in DAI's Redcliffe, and that despite the fact that it's not any sort of bigger quest hub compared to DAO? What about Connor who we can actually talk too if he survived and can see turn into demon in future Redcliffe? What about inhabitants of Haven or Skyhold? All of them distinct personalities and stories, including at least 2 rather big a-holes we can either save or not bother.


How is comparing two separate areas dishonest? We're talking about NPCs in the games as a whole, so using the example of any one section of DAO with DAI is fair. Can I not use any of the NPCs in Orzammar because we don't visit Orzammar in DAI? Looking at DAI Redcliffe, we have the healer who asks us to pick up lots of herbs, the story teller who tells us about a spirit in a lake but then we never go back and tell her the legend is true or have any follow up, the old man who wants flowers on his wife's grave, Connor, who is one of the few good imports from previous games and gives some good dialogue, Linnea and Lysas who provide some information about the opinions of the Tevinter occupation, but that's only flavor dialogue and we can't actually do anything with them, the Tranquil we recruit as an agent, the smuggler we recruit as an agent. I guess that kid who owns Lord Woolesly is funny. DAO Redcliffe wins this comparison, to me. Each of the NPCs I mentioned there have a quest associated with them, multiple methods of solving the quest, and then the results of the quest impact the battle against the undead.
 
 
 
 
So we should ignore the fact that rifts in the Veil appeared even before the Breach and that the Breach - according to Solas, its creator - has weakened the Veil and the changes to it likely felt all across the world? The Breach isn't even that important to the story as the Veil as a whole is; at this point we don't even know if we're going to be defending or tearing it down in the next game, but we do know that it will be essential to the story, given that it's basically what created and guarantees existence of Thedas in shape as we know it and we just found out that its creator wants to get rid of it.
 
Heck, it's almost a character in itself now and in DAI at least, the Inquisitor is its appointed tender. Traveling the world and sealing rifts is their job now, as well as reason why the world needs them, or why the job is difficult, or perhaps even futile at the end.



I don't see how multiple rifts across the maps that don't actually impact their environment show how the Breach is affecting the world. There is a cult surrounding one rift, for Andraste's sake, and no one has been hurt by being so close to it. It is another case of telling and not showing, because apart from the rift blocking off Redcliffe and the Crestwood lake one, none of the rifts actually disrupt anything. I would have rather had the Breach just weaken the Veil and make it easier for demonic influence to spread. Kind of like the Hinterlands quest where we find that apprentice who tried summoning a demon because the Veil was weaker, or the envy demon's ability to infiltrate the templars.
 
 
 
 
What is odd is that you only mention Deep Roads, while most darkspawn has been lured on a surface by Archdemon. A lot of ambushes us on roads and a great deal of enemies we have to fight in various places throughout the game. Not that it's a bad point against the game - it was a game about the Blight and hordes of darskpawn attacking everything after all. I find it bizarre though that you try and make it look as something different than it was and somehow better than a large number of rifts. Those were the enemies designed to be shown to overwhelm us with numbers, even if for different reasons.


 There are supposedly endless hordes of darkspawn, so I think the idea was that if the majority of the horde hadn't been on the surface for the Blight, there would have been no way our small group could have gone as deep into enemy territory as we did.

 

You must've played DAO quite a few time, ey?  Well, if if you actually play through various RPGs in a short time (I played 3 in last 3-4 months and just returned back to playing ESO), a lot of these quests tend to blend with one another.
 
For me the strength of both DAO and DAI lies in companions and NPCs closer to crit path as well as a delightful puzzle of a story and mystery we see unraveling before our eyes - the rest is there to either fill in the gaps, says something about the world or be some sort of wink.


I've played DAO and DA2 more times than DAI, partially because DAI takes so long to complete. But I have played DAI six times, with no other games at the same time, and few of the NPCs stood out to me. Meanwhile, years later and NPCs in DAO and DA2 still stand out to me.
 
 
 
It's not that I don't like or don't care about memorable minor NPCs - the more the merrier, and DAO, like others has its moments, but... I think I just sit too much into storytelling and story creation to enjoy, say, Zerlinda's or Ruck's story, which for me were really short and didn't have much depth. Yes, it had many choices, but not that much depth. They don't lead anywhere much, they're there for expository reasons. And yes, in many regards there's actually more depth in Inquisition's side-quests, even if less interpersonal drama - tracking the Red lyrium mines, establishing order, organizing things, finding allies. We don't just fight Freemen of The Dales in Exalted Planes - we see them smuggling lyrium and making deals with Red Templars in Emerald Graves, while at the same time capturing peasants and sending them to Emprise du Lion's massive red lyrium mine. Documents we find on smugglers also help us track Samson and that gives Dagna a chance to shine and become more important than she ever was in DAO. A lot of smaller and bigger things or quests are interconnected like that, which - like many things stemming from origin stories in DAO - is what I enjoy, as they add depth to the story.



I think we're just going to disagree here. I can't see how convincing Zerlinda to abandon her baby to the Deep Roads or to convince her to start a new life on the surface, to convince Ruck's mother that he's dead, to avoid the shame he feels for living as a tainted shadow of a person, are less deep than discovering mines and organizing things. As I mentioned above, we're not even really tracking the red lyrium mines, there's no investigation, we just hop from one map to the next. We don't need to do anything except find the mines on the map to disrupt them, they're not hidden from us and we have to find a way in. And finding three letters about smugglers in order to access Samson's quest isn't deep, it's searching for three letters so that we can unlock the Temple of Dumat map.
 
 
 
As for emotional little moments in DAI? Seeing the mistake of sending Jana with Wardens, for example. A sad display of self-hatred from adult Connor when we speak with him. His and Lysas' fate in future Redcliffe. Finding out that Oculara skulls are made of Tranquils. An endearing endurance of little spirit trying to fulfill Telana's last wish in JoH. Speaking of spirts - the whole Command/Pomposity spirit quest is very enjoyable, especially with Cole and Solas in the team. Imshael's encounter could be better, but for what we have it's pretty hilarious. Also, the whole Sutherland Company quest is pretty enjoyable - a mix of interactions and war table, resulting in Inky saving (or failing to save) Inquisition's crew of adventurers.


 Jana was a good method of showing the consequences of our actions. Connor's cameo in Redcliffe village was good, but his appearance was extremely bugged in the bad future and I don't think that was ever resolved. So I never got any emotional impact from that, just confusion as to why the empty air was shouting in Connor's voice. Finding out the Tranquil were killed for the skulls was impactful, but then fell flat when there was never any reference to it ever again, Fiona was not questioned about her knowledge if she remained an ally, nothing came of this at all. Telana and the command spirit were good. Imshael was lame, IMO, and an example of how TME had all of its plots wasted or ignored. I don't expect too much from him since Gaxxkang and Xebenkeck didn't have much content to them, either.

 

Nope, as I said, I remember Dagna. I also remember Gheyna. That's it for side quests.
 
I don't think the Inquisition ones were better, I think they were equally forgettable. I could name an entire list of war table missions I remember, however I'm not sure it's a fair test. Inquisition is much more recent, Of course I remember more. I do prefer the wartable to side quests however, and suspect I will still remember everything in there a lot better than any actual side quest.
 
Basically, all the sidequests were forgetable, the camera angles didn't magically make the Origins ones better.

Again, I'll have to disagree. Nefla and I have both pointed out many memorable side characters and quests. The fact that you don't remember them doesn't make them forgettable, just that you focus on different things in your game playing experience.

 

 

 

Again, I'll have to disagree. Nefla and I have both pointed out many memorable side characters and quests. The fact that you don't remember them doesn't make them forgettable, just that you focus on different things in your game playing experience.

 

Just want to touch on this, yet again:  You found them memorable.  What the fact that the other poster doesn't remember them means is that they subjectively didn't find them as memorable as you did.  I certainly didn't.  This doesn't make me wrong, nor does the fact that you find them memorable make you right.  It just means that you found them memorable.  Just because someone agrees with you doesn't mean it's suddenly an objective truth.  It just means that you both share the same opinion.

[correctamundo]

@vbibbi

 

 

 

Again, I'll have to disagree. Nefla and I have both pointed out many memorable side characters and quests. The fact that you don't remember them doesn't make them forgettable, just that you focus on different things in your game playing experience.

 

 

The same goes for DAI. Just because you find NPCs there forgettable doesn't make them so. Just because you find Zerlinda memorable and Ellandra forgettable doesn't make it objectively so.

 

I find them all memorable.

 

And you really should learn to compare like for like.

[vbibbi]

@vbibbi

 

 

 

The same goes for DAI. Just because you find NPCs there forgettable doesn't make them so. Just because you find Zerlinda memorable and Ellandra forgettable doesn't make it objectively so.

 

I find them all memorable.

 

And you really should learn to compare like for like.

I spent a lot of time editing my post for formatting and such, so I'm not sure at which stage of the post you read. For me, memorability means interacting with a character, having choices and consequences from those choices, which I feel DAO does a better job than DAI. The reason Zerlinda is so memorable is because there are multiple methods of finishing this quest with various results, such as her abandoning a baby to its death, her making a new life on the surface, joining Burkel's Chantry. Ellandra finds out her lover is dead and either joins the Inquisition as an agent or doesn't. That's the extent of her characterization and interaction with us.

 

Yes it's subjective, I'm pointing out what I'm considering as an interesting character and why I think DAO accomplished this better.

 

As for comparing like to like, I try to use examples in my discussions. Maybe they are not always exactly a 1:1 match but I am at least trying to support claims. Many people arguing just say they don't agree without providing much in the way of rebuttal.

[vbibbi]

 

Again, I'll have to disagree. Nefla and I have both pointed out many memorable side characters and quests. The fact that you don't remember them doesn't make them forgettable, just that you focus on different things in your game playing experience.

 

Just want to touch on this, yet again:  You found them memorable.  What the fact that the other poster doesn't remember them means is that they subjectively didn't find them as memorable as you did.  I certainly didn't.  This doesn't make me wrong, nor does the fact that you find them memorable make you right.  It just means that you found them memorable.  Just because someone agrees with you doesn't mean it's suddenly an objective truth.  It just means that you both share the same opinion.

 

I'm not saying this is objective, so maybe how I phrased it is a poor choice of words. Everything I post is my opinion and I'm not claiming objective fact. I'm providing evidence of why I disagree with someone else's subjective opinion on the memorability of characters. It's difficult to make an argument, though, when listing examples and the rebuttal is just "I disagree."