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[The Baconer]

And you think Cory WASN'T a Cartoon villain?!?!? Loghain had deep flaws, but relatable. He was ****** terrified of an Orlaisian occupation, something that we learn was quite possible with the knights coming over from Orlais to fight the Blight. And from what we hear, Fereldan was ****** terrible when they ruled it.

 

I think if you're going to have a cartoon villain, someone like Corypheus is a great fit. He's one of the OG fricken' Darkspawn, a literal instigator of Thedas' Original Sin. They even had some room for nuance on top of that. I don't really think he's great, but it's good enough. 

 

Origins Loghain, on the other hand, was a complete botch. On one hand, they wanted him to be "complex" and sympathetic, but just about everything he does in the game is illogically evil because... I dunno, honestly. I guess they just needed someone to do stupid and evil stuff, to be the speedbump. The best word to describe the portrayal of Loghain's morality would be... dishonest. "It's black/white... but wait, it's not!"

[Addictress]

No, to me it's a matter of objective fact. If you didn't put the work in to get the nobles on your side and didn't make the right arguments, then you will lose to Loghain. Fact.

 

Compare this to Trespasser, where you can't win no matter what you do.

DAI Grepher is just plain correct, guys. Not sure how much more clear we can get here

[Addictress]

I think if you're going to have a cartoon villain, someone like Corypheus is a great fit. He's one of the OG fricken' Darkspawn, a literal instigator of Thedas' Original Sin. They even had some room for nuance on top of that. I don't really think he's great, but it's good enough. 

 

Origins Loghain, on the other hand, was a complete botch. On one hand, they wanted him to be "complex" and sympathetic, but just about everything he does in the game is illogically evil because... I dunno, honestly. I guess they just needed someone to do stupid and evil stuff, to be the speedbump. The best word to describe the portrayal of Loghain's morality would be... dishonest. "It's black/white... but wait, it's not!"

It's not illogically evil to want to wrest control from a standing King so that 1. your dynasty can take its place in the throne room. 2. you regain some of the attention you lost since it ebbed after your heroic youth. 3. prove to everyone that you can be a hero again by both battling the blight from the position as ruling dynasty and also protect the country in the future from other foreign forces like Orlais.

 

All those motivations are common motivations we see again and again in medieval stories - whether it be theater or books. And yes, a lot of fans who like Origins appreciated the genre homage.

[Dabrikishaw]

No, to me it's a matter of objective fact. If you didn't put the work in to get the nobles on your side and didn't make the right arguments, then you will lose to Loghain. Fact.

 

Compare this to Trespasser, where you can't win no matter what you do.

Losing the Landsmeet doesn't provide a real consequence of worth. You can still complete the game, you don't get any game overs, etc. That's all the side arguing against you meant.

[Addictress]

Why wouldn't Loghain want to seize the opportunity? His daughter is right there in throne room. All he has to do is get rid of Cailan and his family is the enter of attention again.

 

And he's the most respected general - it's always the top general who overthrows the king. But the king, and the audience, wasn't really able to foresee Loghain had those motivations. Very good set up.

 

Then the beacon is lit...and Duncan looks up... and Loghain turns his men around. To the tune of the AMAZIN Ostagar score. man, that cinematic experience was prime drama.

 

Come now.

[AresKeith]

DAI Grepher is just plain correct, guys. Not sure how much more clear we can get here

 

Clear about what exactly

[AresKeith]

Why wouldn't Loghain want to seize the opportunity? His daughter is right there in throne room. All he has to do is get rid of Cailan and his family is the enter of attention again.

 

And he's the most respected general - it's always the top general who overthrows the king. But the king, and the audience, wasn't really able to foresee Loghain had those motivations. Very good set up.

 

Then the beacon is lit...and Duncan looks up... and Loghain turns his men around. To the tune of the AMAZIN Ostagar score. man, that cinematic experience was prime drama.

 

Come now.

 

And cause an idiotic civil war while a blight is going on....

[Addictress]

Losing the Landsmeet doesn't provide a real consequence of worth. You can still complete the game, you don't get any game overs, etc. That's all the side arguing against you meant.

The landsmeet had like at least four outcomes. Please tell me how many Inquisition had.

 

1. kill corypheus

2. Exit the game window and return to desktop

[Shechinah]

I pretty much consider Solas to be the best antagonist in the Dragon Age series so far so in my opinion, Dragon Age: Inquisition gets the point for the most memorable and interesting "human" villain between him and Loghain. To me, Solas managed to succeed where Loghain fell short.

 

Corypheus is a villain I find intriguing even if I consider him to be a case of a wasted character potential although I do find him more memorable than the Archdemon. I do so love the idea of Corypheus as someone whose crisis of faith wound up compelling him to seek the means to make himself a god capable of intervening in mortal affairs. That was his solution to questioning the existence of deities and I felt his characterization supported why this would be his logical conclusion. He also fitted within the game's exploratio of certain themes, specifically religion. I felt he managed to do this well enough that it came through to me although I'd have liked to see more.

 

Like the Archdemon, Corypheus was seldom seen but unlike the Archdemon, I felt Corypheus' scenes had more of an impact to them in terms of atmosphere and characterization. Yes, the Archdemon is a horror incapable of speech but the scenes featuring it did not feel like it had much atmosphere to it nor much of an impact of horror. An example would be the scene in the Dead Trenches where the Archdemon features but nothing comes of the scene: The Archdemon does not notice the Warden and their company and it flies off while the darkspawn horde marches on. This might have been helped if the effects of being a Warden had been felt more like reoccuring dreams. I loved the design and lore of the Archdemon and of the darkspawn but it felt lacking.

 

In my opinionated opinion, Solas and Corypheus from Dragon Age: Inquisition were more interesting and memorable villains than Loghain and the Archdemon from Dragon Age: Origins.
 

[Addictress]

And cause an idiotic civil war while a blight is going on....

That's the viewpoint of the audience. Any villain of course is going to wreak havoc due to his personal ambitions. That's what  facking villain is. You think Corypheus is there to make the world a beauty? Why would he think his followers would worship him when he's implanting them with painful red lyrium and destroying their world?

 

You're making a false argument... that doesn't make sense. That's what villains do. They act on their personal interests and are completely blinded to the impact it has on others, or they are merciless and don't care. In Loghain's case, it's clear that he seriously thinks he's a winner and can get the country back in order and that the civil war won't be that big a deal. If it is, he will be able to quickly end it. As he says to Arl Teagan, he won't take threats from anyone and won't allow the opposing faction to survive even a second.

 

But once that opposing faction is gone, the country will not only win against the blight but prosper under his rule. That's his conceited thought process, as we are supposed to just infer.

[Addictress]

But Corypheus doesn't even want his followers to prosper, or anything.

 

Loghain is like... a Republican presidential candidate. They truly believe the country will be more safe and beautiful under their rule. And many people would agree with them. That's the thing - it's not abhorrently clear that they are wrong and going to cause more suffering than wellbeing.

 

corypheus is clearly going to cause suffering. Why would ANYONE have any sympathy for him? Do we really care how the red templars' lives will be if Corypheus wins? Who wins in Corypheus' world as revealed to us in the Hushed Whispers future timeline? Just... infected cronies? Those must be the only people who win if Corypheus wins, and we do not commiserate with them.

 

In Loghain's future, yeah there'll be a civil war but he doesn't think it'll be all that bad, he'll quickly put it down, and then he's still got most of the country of normal human beings who will continue their normal lives under his family's rule.

[The Baconer]

It's not illogically evil to want to wrest control from a standing King so that 1. your dynasty can take its place in the throne room. 2. you regain some of the attention you lost since it ebbed after your heroic youth. 3. prove to everyone that you can be a hero again by both battling the blight from the position as ruling dynasty and also protect the country in the future from other foreign forces like Orlais.

 

Well, yes, it is generally regarded as evil when someone who is demonstrably corrupt forcefully takes control of a government. None of what you listed actually precludes 'evil'. 

 

Where Loghain fails is in his methods, which are so utterly devoid of  logic or actual pragmatism it just becomes a bit of a joke. 

[Addictress]

Well, yes, it is generally regarded as evil when someone who is demonstrably corrupt forcefully takes control of a government. None of what you listed actually precludes 'evil'. 

 

Where Loghain fails is in his methods, which are so utterly devoid of  logic or actual pragmatism it just becomes a bit of a joke. 

Why is his method bad? You can argue that it's a direct copy of many storylines seen in like... basically every medieval power-struggle story ever. But those aren't shite. People generally respect old medieval power-struggle stories.

[Addictress]

I'm not sure why "Doom Upon All The World" is being compared to "The Landsmeet" in the first place. Winning the Landsmeet isn't the end of the game, killing the Archdemon is. 

 

 

That's true. And even then, killing the archdemon had multiple methods involved, unlike Corypheus where you just take three companions and kill him. No dark ritual, no army of golems, no army of Dalish elves, no sacrified warden (OF YOUR CHOOSING), which, again, all depend on the landsmeet.

[AresKeith]

That's true. And even then, killing the archdemon had multiple methods involved, unlike Corypheus where you just take three companions and kill him. No dark ritual, no army of golems, no army of Dalish elves, no sacrified warden (OF YOUR CHOOSING), which, again, all depend on the landsmeet.

 

Ok?
 

[The Baconer]

Why is his method bad? You can argue that it's a direct copy of many storylines seen in like... basically every medieval power-struggle story ever. But those aren't shite. People generally respect old medieval power-struggle stories.

 

It's not a medieval power-struggle story, it's a Hero Fights the Tides of Darkness with a dash of "Oh, the Darkspawn that exciting. How do we get a more entertaining antagonist that will oppose the PC on every front, even when it doesn't make sense, up until the final showdown?"

 

So, Heel Loghain gets pushed, since he is much better on the mic than the Archdemon. 

[KaiserShep]

Well, I enjoy the characters a great deal more (Wynn and Leliana can be quite cloying and Oghren annoys the sh*t out of me most of the time), the game goes far deeper into the weirdness of Thedas, I prefer voiced protagonists over silent, I think the [real] villain of the story is vastly more interesting than the lot we've had thus far, and the music is (to me) significantly superior in quality. Both plots are essentially the same defeat the ancient evil thing so I guess on that front it's about even. 

[Shechinah]

This is my thoughts on racial designs in terms of main races.

 

While I feel there is room for improvement, I prefer Inquisition's design of elves. The design of elves had them be noticeably different than humans unlike in Origins but also did not have them be as different as they were in II. I lack the proper words but suffice to say, I felt the latter design was too odd and ill-fitting. I liked the noticeable difference between the design of ancient elves and the design of modern elves. I felt, however, that modern elves had a bit too scrawny or odd a physique. I really dug that their slender physique also seemed to indicate their difficult life but there was an odd element to the design that seemed unrelated to that and made their bodies look a bit odd, something that was noticeable in the default casual. I hope to see Inquisition's design remain with small tweaks.

 

I still, however, prefer II's design of the qunari race over Inquisition's design. While the design remained largely unchanged, there were noticeable tweaks: the unusual eye coloring is something I miss and hope to see return.

[TheKomandorShepard]

It's not a medieval power-struggle story, it's a Hero Fights the Tides of Darkness with a dash of "Oh, the Darkspawn that exciting. How do we get a more entertaining antagonist that will oppose the PC on every front, even when it doesn't make sense, up until the final showdown?"

 

So, Heel Loghain gets pushed, since he is much better on the mic than the Archdemon. 

 

Wait how Loghain opposing you didn't make sense, you were acting against him because he used you as scapegoat to cover what he did, pretty much conflict made sense for both sides protagonist and antagonist.

[Shechinah]

I love and adore Inquisition's further development of the lore of Thedas and what the world contains to tiny precious bits especially as it finally felt like questions pertaining to the lore were being answered while leaving new things to be pondered. The lore of elves, spirits, dwarves, avvar and so much more... it was so wonderful and I dearly hope to see more of it!

 

It further helped set apart and establish the world of Thedas from other worlds.

[Shechinah]

I felt Inquisition was more visually interesting than Origins in quite a lot of ways though not necessarily all but it is a little difficult to elaborate on since I feel I need to provide examples in the form of pictures.

 

To provide some examples of what I like and love but also what I felt were lacking;

 

The small set of areas in Val Royeaux I felt undersold the city: I felt what we saw of it  fitted well but I would have liked to see more sides of Val Royeaux such as the areas featuring the Grand Cathedral and the non-prisitine areas where the commoners and the alienages dwell. Denerim was limited as well but I felt it better sold the illusion of a capital city although it too had its flaws. 

 

The design of Orlais and it's culture was marvelous: the design of the clothing and of the architecture especially. It sold the pomp and extravegance of the culture and provided the contrast I expected between Ferelden culture and Orleasian culture.

 

I also loved the little touches  such as the "graffiti" often found on cave surfaces when journeying and the incorporation of different styles such as Solas' fresco murals, the dialogue icons, the ancient elven paintings and the art of the tarot cards. I dearly hope to see more of this. I very much hope to see the return of tarot cards function as the party selection and companion progress method. 

 

I hope to see the visual design of Inquisition continued with improvements as I feel it is both gorgeous distinguishing and beneficial to lore amongst other things.

[AlanC9]

No, to me it's a matter of objective fact. If you didn't put the work in to get the nobles on your side and didn't make the right arguments, then you will lose to Loghain. Fact.

What do you actually lose there when you "lose"? I think this is where people are talking past each other.

[AlanC9]

The landsmeet had like at least four outcomes. Please tell me how many Inquisition had.

1. kill corypheus
2. Exit the game window and return to desktop

You know better than to make an argument this silly. If the different Landsmeet outcomes count, then the different WEWH outcomes count. And the Divine outcomes too.

[thats1evildude]

I will note that, while I wanted some bow-chicka-wow-wow action with Josephine, the romances do get a lot better content than DAO. In Origins, Morrigan and Leliana shared the same sex scene (and default underwear) and on the XBox 360 you couldn't kiss your LI any time you wanted. There were also some dialogues I really felt that were missing in my romance with Leliana, but I never felt while romancing Josie that there was anything missing (aside from the boning).

[greenbrownblue]

In my opinionated opinion, Solas and Corypheus from Dragon Age: Inquisition were more interesting and memorable villains than Loghain and the Archdemon from Dragon Age: Origins.

 

True. I really love it that we got to know DA4's villain so well in DAI. I usually feel like killing villains is just sth u have to go thru in order to complete the game, nothing more. I hardly never feel like the game forces me to put myself in their shoes. Trespasser's ending suggests that DA4 will give you an option to redeem Solas, which is awesome. Sth I would like to see in ME3 (with The Illusive Man).