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[Al Foley]

A thought just occured to me.  So profound in fact that I had to run out as soon as I got home from work and make this thread.  

 

Now I have often thought that Video Game antagonists are weak.  So much so that I have often called it a weakness of the medium, and recently.  Video game Antagonists are usualy shallow, mustache twirling, if they are allowed to exisist at all.  By and large.  The reasons for this are simple.  Video Games, unlike any other medium, are driven by their interactivity with the 'player'.  Essentially put the audience often has a role in determining the story and how it unfolds.  By and large.  Hence game companies often cannot, or unwilling to take control out of the hands of the player and show things from the bad guy's POV via cutscenes or other means.  Simply put most gamers want to be engaged in playing their game...not watching a movie.  However this kind of in depth time is often needed to create indepth meaningful badugys.  So badguys in games often fall into two categories, mooks who exist to defeat to get to the next stage and score points, or shallow antagonists who can't get their proper role in the story because they are over shadowed by gaming, and protagonists.  

 

BioWare, as a whole, has mixed results with antagonists.  They have great ones, they have poor ones.  Some of the better ones have been featured in DA 2.  Why? Well, throughout a good deal of the DA franchise, for instance, you have main quests with bad guys that controljust that main quest.  You defeat them, then move onto the next plot point/ bad guy until you face the ultimate big bad of the game.  DA 2, on the other hand, ditched this process.  There were only three antagonists of note, in a game roughly the same length as Mass Effect and DA O.  We got to know them, they got to breathe, and rarely did we just do a main quest just to defeat a bad guy, though it happened...and even then it was often a ploy by one of the bigger villains thus revealing their character. 

[Addictress]

Yes

[GoldenGail3]

Howe are you doing? *makes a silly pun about Howe, knows DAA Anders is proud of her*

[Sifr]

I agree, the main antagonists are better in DA2 because you have multiple interactions with them that aren't combat based, before the final confrontation occurs. Instead you are allowed to really see what drives them and makes them tick, that they aren't doing things simply "for the evulz" and some of their points you might even find yourself agreeing with, because they aren't entirely wrong.

 

Petrice is a religious zealot who really believes she's doing the right thing by eliminating a bunch of heretical giants, who's threaten the Chantry with their philosophy and even when they aren't converting, still attract many to join them.

 

The Arishok is a frustrated general stuck on a snipe hunt in the worst place he can think of, who really believes in the order of the Qun and finally gets pushed too far, launching an attack to either bring order to a chaotic city or in the desperate hope that someone (preferably Hawke) can put him out of his misery.

 

Meredith is an overzealous and tough-as-nails leader, who really believes she's doing the right thing because it's her experience that mages are dangerous and need to be watched, something that she was certain of even before the Red Lyrium drove her mad.

 

Anders is a bomb-throwing anarchist, who really believes that mages deserve their freedom and that the system in place means it can never be achieved peacefully, so he had to take matters into his own hands and force a confrontation that would resolve the matter one way or another.

[Al Foley]

Howe are you doing? *makes a silly pun about Howe, knows DAA Anders is proud of her*

"Its shameful how long it took me to come up with that one."

[FemShem]

Anders was an added antagonist.  Act 3 was added on in a month.  Is it fair to add him to the crowd?  Maybe we leave it at Meredith and the Arishock.  Unfortunate incident with mom, and Bartrand is a bastard who probably cause your brother or sister to die on an early play through, before you figured out the trick...so crazy alive or dead wouldn't Bartrand be a possible antagonist?

Anders wouldn't have one of EA hadn't said, hey BioWare we need an Act 3 your game is too short, you have a month.

The war was inevitable (which would have been much more shocking), and Orsino, tho a boss, no one even attempts to make him a bad guy...because it was rushed writing and makes virtually no sense.

DA2 would have been the best (potentially) in the series if EA had given them two years, IMHO, but they didn't.

Too bad.  Hawke was suppose to be the protagonist of DA:I.  Act I dialogue reads just like Hawke...the cory reveal would have been amazing!

Thanks EA, for screwing everyone.

[GoldenGail3]

Anders was an added antagonist.  Act 3 was added on in a month.  Is it fair to add him to the crowd?  Maybe we leave it at Meredith and the Arishock.  Unfortunate incident with mom, and Bartrand is a bastard who probably cause your brother or sister to die on an early play through, before you figured out the trick...so crazy alive or dead wouldn't Bartrand be a possible antagonist?
Anders wouldn't have one of EA hadn't said, hey BioWare we need an Act 3 your game is too short, you have a month.
The war was inevitable (which would have been much more shocking), and Orsino, tho a boss, no one even attempts to make him a bad guy...because it was rushed writing and makes virtually no sense.
DA2 would have been the best (potentially) in the series if EA had given them two years, IMHO, but they didn't.
Too bad.  Hawke was suppose to be the protagonist of DA:I.  Act I dialogue reads just like Hawke...the cory reveal would have been amazing!
Thanks EA, for screwing everyone.

If Hawke was the main progie of DAI; I'd have to request lots of snarkness out of my Hawke.

[GoldenGail3]

"Its shameful how long it took me to come up with that one."

Lol *suddenly feels saddened by DA2 Ander's existence*

[SgtSteel91]

I agree, the main antagonists are better in DA2 because you have multiple interactions with them that aren't combat based, before the final confrontation occurs. Instead you are allowed to really see what drives them and makes them tick, that they aren't doing things simply "for the evulz" and some of their points you might even find yourself agreeing with, because they aren't entirely wrong.

 

Petrice is a religious zealot who really believes she's doing the right thing by eliminating a bunch of heretical giants, who's threaten the Chantry with their philosophy and even when they aren't converting, still attract many to join them.

 

The Arishok is a frustrated general stuck on a snipe hunt in the worst place he can think of, who really believes in the order of the Qun and finally gets pushed too far, launching an attack to either bring order to a chaotic city or in the desperate hope that someone (preferably Hawke) can put him out of his misery.

 

Meredith is an overzealous and tough-as-nails leader, who really believes she's doing the right thing because it's her experience that mages are dangerous and need to be watched, something that she was certain of even before the Red Lyrium drove her mad.

 

Anders is a bomb-throwing anarchist, who really believes that mages deserve their freedom and that the system in place means it can never be achieved peacefully, so he had to take matters into his own hands and force a confrontation that would resolve the matter one way or another.

 

I'd add Revered Mother Elthina: a spineless people pleaser whose refusal reign in Meredith and the Krikwall Templars let the oppression of the Krikwall Mages get to the point where the city implodes.

[Amne YA]

Anders was an added antagonist.  Act 3 was added on in a month.  Is it fair to add him to the crowd?  Maybe we leave it at Meredith and the Arishock.  Unfortunate incident with mom, and Bartrand is a bastard who probably cause your brother or sister to die on an early play through, before you figured out the trick...so crazy alive or dead wouldn't Bartrand be a possible antagonist?

Anders wouldn't have one of EA hadn't said, hey BioWare we need an Act 3 your game is too short, you have a month.

The war was inevitable (which would have been much more shocking), and Orsino, tho a boss, no one even attempts to make him a bad guy...because it was rushed writing and makes virtually no sense.

DA2 would have been the best (potentially) in the series if EA had given them two years, IMHO, but they didn't.

Too bad.  Hawke was suppose to be the protagonist of DA:I.  Act I dialogue reads just like Hawke...the cory reveal would have been amazing!

Thanks EA, for screwing everyone.

i think DA3  would have been great if hawk where the inquisitor . cansandra was looking for him in da2 because he can play a big role in the conclave and it will make sence if he figured that  Cory was in the conclave and wennt to stop him  one more but lose his memorie in the explosion .   then when Cory  show up in heaven the rest of the game would take a more personal way than it took with someone who dont know Cory  .
it would have solved  a lot of plot hole that the DA  serie sufer from .
specialy the new protagonis every game and what to do with the old one . 

yeah 

[RoseLawliet]

I'd add Revered Mother Elthina: a spineless people pleaser whose refusal reign in Meredith and the Krikwall Templars let the oppression of the Krikwall Mages get to the point where the city implodes.

 

She's a Grand Cleric. That makes it even worse. The only person with authority over her is the Divine.

[huyre]

I'd add Revered Mother Elthina: a spineless people pleaser whose refusal reign in Meredith and the Krikwall Templars let the oppression of the Krikwall Mages get to the point where the city implodes.

 

I don't think she was a people pleaser. Elthina was quite capable voicing her disagreement and refused to give in. She did not felt guilty about saying "no".

I think Elthina really believed she could mediate it all and that as the highest authority in Kirkwall, she was the one thing giving stability to the city. I suspect she believed she was the one neutral and controlling force to keep Meredith and Orsino in check and the one to ease and guide the people in Kirkwall. And being a devout grand cleric she might have thought that the Maker would help her fix things or something.

 

She was at least gullible/overconfident enough to think she was untouchable in her position as grand cleric and that everyone needed her. It perhaps illustrated that she was actually out of touch with the people and the overall ongoing escalation.

 

She did annoy me with her passivity. Though I understood that grand clerics are supposed to maintain neutral, she refused every and any form of action, while everything around her kept moving on. And I found it frustrating that she was willing to put her life on the line. When they knew that Elthina was not safe, they should have just knocked her out and kept her somewhere. I am sure they could have made a case afterwards that the kidnapping saved her life.

[Sifr]

The amount of problems stemming from neutrality or inaction probably qualify enough to be considered the main intangible antagonist in the game.

 

Aveline's unwillingness to fully believe in Emeric's serial killer theory ended up being one of the factors that unfortunately lead to Leandra's abduction and murder. This isn't necessarily her fault, as we know she did everything in her power (and the law) to find evidence connecting the murders, yet she was frustrated that all her failed raid on Gascard DePuis' mansion accomplished was to stir up a hornet's nest of angry nobles. Yet, by deciding to pawn the investigation off on Hawke and hoping that Emeric was chasing shadows, makes it seem like she wasn't pursuing the matter as seriously as she should have and probably hadn't leaned on Gascard for answers as hard as she could have.

 

Elthina not wanting to take sides and hoping she could serve as a neutral third party, yet doing little to actually promote that peace and actively mediate between the mages and templars, unless they were at each other's throats, is one of the factors that lead to the escalation of hostilities in Kirkwall.

 

Hawke not taking a more active role in Kirkwall, something Aveline even chides them about long before they became Champion, meant they often remained neutral and didn't get involved in problems until it became serious. Frequently, Hawke's involvement only came about because one of the factions asked them to step in a third party agent, rather than something they actively went about pursuing on their own. That's not necessarily a mark against Hawke's character, just that Hawke has a tendency to be more reactive than proactive when it comes to dealing with an issue... which is also true of Varric as well, and probably another reason why the two have such a kinship.