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How about that romance thing in rpgs?

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#1
correctamundo

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Because I really don't understand people who take a strong stance against it in an rpg. I started in pen and paper D&D in 1981. All teenage guys. Pretty soon we graduated to RQ ;-) and left classes and levels behind. It didn't take us long to get in character enough to understand that there was more to their lives than just hacking monsters. We had some great romances going with the GM having to get into all sorts of different mind-sets.

 

I just finished ME1 for the first time. The romance part was a really small part of that game but boy did it turn Shepard from a robot to a man.

 

It was fun times then, it is fun times now=)

 

Maybe should be in vent instead of thread but I will just let you do with this what you will.



#2
karushna5

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I don't get it either, I have said it elsewhere but I met my fiance through roleplaying. My first gay NPC convinced several of my friends that gays aren't bad. In all our games we have a bit of romance, and its nice to play out in games because all good stories usually have some. Add in that romantic fullfillment is in ton of games and is fairly rare to have in any game with the budget of Bioware. 

 

The only difference between this game and nearly every other RPG is we have choices in romance.



#3
nightscrawl

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I think they are nice when they add something to the game, the PC's role-play as well as the LI's character development.

 

The only difference between this game and nearly every other RPG is we have choices in romance.


I find it hard to believe that the choice factor is the only difference. Bioware characters are consistently praised for their quality and depth, and this bleeds over into the romances with those characters. Sure, there have been some hiccoughs along the way, such as the whole Shepard/Jack thing*, I know some players have various issues with the Iron Bull romance, and some issues with same-sex disparity and how that is presented in the romance itself, but for the most part the romances do tend to feel like a fully fleshed out (lol...) part of the game, and in some cases really add to a LI's character development.
 
I know they've gotten better and everything, but the first Witcher game had collectible sex cards every time Geralt sexed some lady. You could of course play the game as being committed to a single woman, but the fact that that existed was just so gross to me. The marriages and romances in Skyrim are pretty absurd as the NPCs hardly have any personality at all and it boils down to wearing a necklace and showing up at the right place at the right time. The Fallout 4 romances** appear to need work as well, with some players being more satisfied than others, but overall seem to be a decent first showing for the series.
 
 
 
 
* I have never played an ME game and only know about this criticism from other players. I have no idea how valid or accurate it is.
 
** I also haven't played Fallout 4 and am basing this on the comments of other players.

 

My first gay NPC convinced several of my friends that gays aren't bad.


I'm always sad to read this. It seems nice in general -- one person at a time, I suppose -- but this really shouldn't be necessary. Dick Cheney shouldn't have to have a gay daughter to think of them as people. But it's a scenario we see time and time again. I suppose it's better than had he disowned her, since that happens a lot as well.


That last thing was a bit of a digression. Sorry about that.



#4
Biotic Apostate

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I don't get the opposition either. BW makes some of the few RPG games, where the companions take a pivotal role. Since the game itself wants you to bond with these characters, it's only natural some romances will come out of that. It's not something that exists in the void, but a story device that is supposed to strengthen the main story and the immersion in it.

 

I enjoy these romances also because these are the few games, which give me the choice to have a gay relationship. Countless other games have straight romances (Dishonored, Silent Hill, Dead Space, Witcher, Alan Wake, Wolf Among Us, Overlord, to name a few). There no one complains about romances. Then you get to BW games, which have more choices and people enjoy it, and suddenly it's accused of being a dating sim.

 

Concerning Fallout 4 - the game was so incredibly buggy, the missions so repetitive, and the mechanics so clunky that the companions and the romance (and some environmental story telling) were the only things that got me through it.



#5
nightscrawl

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Countless other games have straight romances (Dishonored, Silent Hill V, Dead Space, Witcher, Alan Wake, Wolf Among Us, Overlord, to name a few). There no one complains about romances. Then you get to BW games, which have more choices and people enjoy it, and suddenly it's accused of being a dating sim.


I'm not familiar with some of those titles -- I'm not a very widely played gamer -- but the few that I do know have fixed protagonists. Sure, you can have some RP variation, but it is still a pre-defined character, more or less. Perhaps that is one of the differences?

I mean, perhaps this is naive of me, but I'd really like not to think that the sole reason Bioware romances come under such criticism is because they include LGBT romance content. Even our own Gay KISA thread has criticism of those romances for one reason or another. Although, I do admit that the continual shouts of the devs "pandering" does tend to make it seem that way...

 

Perhaps it is that very option of variety that emboldens players with certain preferences. By preferences here I am referring to the gay roguish type versus the KISA type, or similar types of people, not sexualities. Ever since DA2 showed the obvious KISA Avaline, players have been wanting that type for a f/f romance, then that group (myself included) was also locked out of a romance with Cassandra. Of course that is Bioware's right and the writer should do what they feel is right for the character they're creating -- I feel strongly about that. On the other hand, the fact that we have had such variety does make the disappointment a bit stronger and makes one wistfully say, "Well, maybe next time..."

 

Then again, one really can't discount some of the posts remarking on the lack of "attractive" females in DAI, and the sense of entitlement shown by those players. I'm not sure how much of this you saw, Biotic, but post-release, and for several months afterward, there were occasional threads concerning Josephine, and particularly Cassandra, and how they weren't attractive, or [that Cassandra was] too manly, or other things. One person kept posting under different names, and once even tried to give evidence concerning objective standards of beauty. It was all pretty disgusting.

 

I seem to have gotten away from my premise, that is, that the ability to choose goes to some players' heads and then leads to entitlement from already privileged groups. I can't even begin to count the number of times that the devs, not just David Gaider, but several of them, had to point out that straight males got the same number of options as in the previous two games, yet they still continued to play the victim because some players got more.

 

I really don't know how they managed to restrain themselves and not say, "Boo, f-ing hoo," although I think DG did some close on one occasion with some remarks, bless his heart.

 

 

 

Uh... I get too carried away sometimes. All apologies.



#6
karushna5

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I'm not familiar with some of those titles -- I'm not a very widely played gamer -- but the few that I do know have fixed protagonists. Sure, you can have some RP variation, but it is still a pre-defined character, more or less. Perhaps that is one of the differences?

I mean, perhaps this is naive of me, but I'd really like not to think that the sole reason Bioware romances come under such criticism is because they include LGBT romance content. Even our own Gay KISA thread has criticism of those romances for one reason or another. Although, I do admit that the continual shouts of the devs "pandering" does tend to make it seem that way...

 

 

I seem to have gotten away from my premise, that is, that the ability to choose goes to some players' heads and then leads to entitlement from already privileged groups. I can't even begin to count the number of times that the devs, not just David Gaider, but several of them, had to point out that straight males got the same number of options as in the previous two games, yet they still continued to play the victim because some players got more.

 

Yes customizable protagonists is one thing different, but no one really complains about that in connection to romances.

 

As for Choice all I need to do is point to Fire Emblem, it is a game series that has all straight romances (until recently). You marry your different companions and get a kid really quickly whose stats are affected by the parents you chose. The romances (not just the stats) are insanely popular, and many older fans feel it is ruining the games.

 

Because romances become more popular, there is often a backlash. It is the more optimistic view that it isn't because it is LGBT or women can get more options, but whenever anything gets popular, there is usually a backlash of people who hate it.



#7
Biotic Apostate

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snip

I think the two biggest reasons for that strong opposition are the fact that you can control the romances and choose what you want, and because of the variety. Of course there are some problems with execution, but people who have issues with that ask for a different approach, not to get rid of romances.
 
My point with the examples was not only that they are straight, but that romances are somehow normal when they are something that is forced onto you by the story. Suddenly wanting to have a bit of control over that makes BW players obsessed with romances.
 
Our KISA thread criticism comes from a different place, I think - the fact that they are either an afterthought, or that we don't get enough variety in personality.
 
I've seen the forum post launch and it was ugly. "Josephine is too exotic, and Cassandra has a manly chin. And the one I wanted is a lesbian WTF Biovar!" I have seen so many of those "I'm a straight male, and the biggest demographic, you should give me more content" type of posts that I cannot say that they are not a big part of the criticism of the romances. LGBT content is not the only reason, but it is a big part of it. And some of the BW employees that answered these terrible posts have godly amounts of patience.
 
Other thing to consider is that ME reeled in many people who were classic shooter fans. I think they don't expect romances in that kind of games, and that's why they find people discussing it so strange and pointless. But that's only my theory.
 
(sorry for the weird structure of this, but I was answering paragraph by paragraph)


#8
Undead Han

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I think the opposition to it is mostly a reaction (or more accurately, an overreaction) to the outsized importance some fans put on the romance arcs. They look at the threads complaining about Cassandra's appearance or Liara getting a lot of content in ME3 or people claiming the Shepard trilogy was ruined for them because Thane wasn't cured, or complaints/ requests for nudity, and vent by posting that they'd wish Bioware would cut the romances all together. I understand the sentiment, if not how it ends up being expressed.

 

I think a lot of the time the people who post that the romance arcs should be cut are also just turning up the hyperbole, and probably play through one or more of the romance arcs while playing through the games. 



#9
vertigomez

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I'm hijacking this thread for the sole purpose of fangasming and I'm only a little sorry about it aight I just gotta get it off my chest MAKE WAY FOR THE MURDERHUSBAND

Spoiler

MAYHEM, MUD WRESTLING AND UNHOLY MATRIMONY

LIFE IS GOOD if you're on our side BY WHICH I MEAN IT IS EVIL. BUT ALSO VERY GOOD??!

(Phew, had to get that out of my system, thanks. :bandit:)

#10
Biotic Apostate

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I love that art. 

 

I really wanted to like his romance, but it kinda lacked something for me. At the end of ToB, it felt flat.

 

But that wedding dialogue? Just too funny :D

Spoiler


#11
vertigomez

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I love that art. 
 
I really wanted to like his romance, but it kinda lacked something for me. At the end of ToB, it felt flat.
 
But that wedding dialogue? Just too funny :D

Spoiler


I think I like it so much 'cause it makes me laugh (like, riotously. I never new I was such a pixel sociopath?). And I like the fact that he just loooves your, erm, unique heritage. It does feel a little incomplete, but I found that to be the case with most of BG's romances (please god no one hurt me).

I think I just like Dorn because he's an unapologetically evil cheeseball who likes public displays of affection and helps you recite your vows as you devote yourselves to each other and to the messy annihilation of the unworthy.

Dorn: Charname of Candlekeep. Bhaalspawn. Will you bleed for love of me?
Charname: I will.
Dorn: There. Now say the words.
Charname: Dorn of clan Il-Khan, Scourge of the Sword Coast. Will you bleed for love of me?
Dorn: I will. Now clasp my hand in yours.

And then he declares us companions and lovers and threatens our enemies with horrible death. So romantic. :wub: :lol:

#12
Biotic Apostate

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I don't think anyone will fight with you about the romances, they did feel like they were lacking..hm "meat." More of a bonus than what we get now. Maybe that's why I couldn't really get into it.

 

The evil part of it was really fun, I admit. His in your face evilness was especially great, since even BW toned it down with Viconia. He had a great dialogue at one point that basically went "Wow this fighting and chaos are impressive, if we had the time, I'd take you right here. Now, kiss me." :D



#13
HuldraDancer

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I'm hijacking this thread for the sole purpose of fangasming and I'm only a little sorry about it aight I just gotta get it off my chest MAKE WAY FOR THE MURDERHUSBAND

Spoiler

MAYHEM, MUD WRESTLING AND UNHOLY MATRIMONY

LIFE IS GOOD if you're on our side BY WHICH I MEAN IT IS EVIL. BUT ALSO VERY GOOD??!

(Phew, had to get that out of my system, thanks. :bandit:)

 

What game is he from? Woof :wub:



#14
Biotic Apostate

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What game is he from? Woof :wub:

He is one of the companions (and bi romance options) Beamdog added to the enhanced editions of Baldur's Gate 1 and 2.



#15
vertigomez

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I don't think anyone will fight with you about the romances, they did feel like they were lacking..hm "meat." More of a bonus than what we get now. Maybe that's why I couldn't really get into it.


Nah, I feel ya. I'm spoiled by the soap opera romances we have now. (Not sarcasm, btw. I enjoy the fictional drama llama.)

The evil part of it was really fun, I admit. His in your face evilness was especially great, since even BW toned it down with Viconia. He had a great dialogue at one point that basically went "Wow this fighting and chaos are impressive, if we had the time, I'd take you right here. Now, kiss me." :D


Oh yes! I loved that part. He likes PDA and dgaf who's watchin'.

I love Vic, but I've only ever romanced her as a Good or Neutral character so I think I missed out on some of the evil hamminess. Dorn makes up for that in spades. "There are hundreds, thousands, HUNDREDS of THOUSANDS of people we could be slaying right now, AND WE DO NOTHING!" :lol:

What game is he from? Woof :wub:


What Biotic said. :wizard:

#16
vertigomez

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Found this neat thread on reddit where someone made a poll to gauge if people generally had a "type" in DA. And there's a similar thread here on the BSN.

Has anyone noticed themselves falling into a pattern? :P

#17
Panda

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Found this neat thread on reddit where someone made a poll to gauge if people generally had a "type" in DA. And there's a similar thread here on the BSN.

Has anyone noticed themselves falling into a pattern? :P

 

 

I usually end up romancing many characters, but in DA elves usually are my pick ^^;



#18
BraveVesperia

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Found this neat thread on reddit where someone made a poll to gauge if people generally had a "type" in DA. And there's a similar thread here on the BSN.

Has anyone noticed themselves falling into a pattern? :P

Heh, I've noticed I keep falling for the 'lovable rogue' type. Especially if they're a little lewd, funny and morally ambiguous. Probably why I don't have a favourite LI, just DA. Garrus might have fit the bill best, but I'm not really into turians romantically.



#19
nightscrawl

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Found this neat thread on reddit where someone made a poll to gauge if people generally had a "type" in DA. And there's a similar thread here on the BSN.

Has anyone noticed themselves falling into a pattern? :P

 

Yeah, characters written by David Gaider... dammit. This even goes for Casandra whom I haven't romanced, but would if she were an f/f option.

 

I'll have to exempt DAO from that since I'm not really into any of the LI in that game.