27 odpowiedzi w tym temacie

[Jedi Comedian]

What would have happened if Anders never crossed paths with Justice? Would he still be what he was in Awakening, simply a runaway apostate caring mostly about his own survival/freedom, or would things still be the same as in DA2?

[Taki17]

Anders allowed Justice to posess him when Kristoff's body became so decayed that it could not perform anymore, plus Justice wanted Kristoff's body properly buried and bring peace to his grieving widow. When Anders and Justice merged, he was accused of being an abomination, was forced to kill other Wardens and had to flee.

 

It was Justice, who encouraged Anders to take a stand against the mistreatment of the mages, and by posessing him, he made the mage freedom the primary goal of Anders, whose rage against the templars transformed the spirit into Vengeance, and that's when Anders started become a radical.

 

In Awakening, before joining the Wardens and meeting Justice, Anders was a pretty selfish person, who mostly cared about himself, his freedom and his well-being. Getting recurited into the Wardens and discussing the mage-templar issuie with Justice (and the eventual mergeing with him) made him a much more different person.

 

So yes, Anders' story definitley would have turned out very differently, if he never met Justice.

[Midnight Bliss]

Apparently spirit possession comes with the risk of making you a jock-hunting manfan magical vigilante terrorist with a side of broodiness.

 

 

Who knew

[Jedi Comedian]

When Anders and Justice merged, he was accused of being an abomination, was forced to kill other Wardens and had to flee.

The Wardens recruit blood mages, why not abominations? He'd be a rather useful soldier.

[Jedi Comedian]

Apparently spirit possession comes with the risk of making you a jock-hunting manfan magical vigilante terrorist with a side of broodiness.


Who knew

So he would've never, EVER become a mage rights crusader if not for Justice's possession? I'm rather disappointed with him.

[Taki17]

The Wardens recruit blood mages, why not abominations? He'd be a rather useful soldier.

If I'm not mistaken, according to the short story that acts as background material for Anders for DAII, there were some Wardens who were Templars before and they were the ones who tried to kill Anders first.

 

Also, an abomination (even if he's not merged with a demon) is a rather unstable asset.

[Gervaise]

In WoT2 his relationship with Karl is canon, even though he only admits to having been his lover to a male Hawke.    According to his history it is implied his constant attempts to escape were because he was trying to get back to Karl who had been transferred to Kirkwall.   So it is possible that even without Justice he would still have dropped out of the Grey Wardens and headed for Kirkwall, then become a vigilante after Karl was made tranquil, but purely from feelings of vengeance over Karl rather than a general concern for mage rights.  

[Sifr]

So he would've never, EVER become a mage rights crusader if not for Justice's possession? I'm rather disappointed with him.

 

Anders would have likely taken that path if he hadn't been possessed, as it was his friendship with Justice before they joined that allowed him to see that he couldn't sit by and watch as other mages were denied the same freedom he was now taking for granted.

 

As he tells us in DA2, agreeing to become Justice's host was done more because they though it'd be a mutually beneficial partnership. Justice could continue to exist outside the Fade and correct the grave injustice being done to the mages of Thedas, while Anders would be able to help out his friend and gain both the power and drive to see it through.

 

As with so many things that go horribly, horribly wrong, it was done with the best intentions.

[Jedi Comedian]

In WoT2 his relationship with Karl is canon, even though he only admits to having been his lover to a male Hawke. According to his history it is implied his constant attempts to escape were because he was trying to get back to Karl who had been transferred to Kirkwall. So it is possible that even without Justice he would still have dropped out of the Grey Wardens and headed for Kirkwall, then become a vigilante after Karl was made tranquil, but purely from feelings of vengeance over Karl rather than a general concern for mage rights.

Avenging Karl would be definetly the best reason to do it.

[GoldenGail3]

Anders would have likely taken that path if he hadn't been possessed, as it was his friendship with Justice before they joined that allowed him to see that he couldn't sit by and watch as other mages were denied the same freedom he was now taking for granted.
 
As he tells us in DA2, agreeing to become Justice's host was done more because they though it'd be a mutually beneficial partnership. Justice could continue to exist outside the Fade and correct the grave injustice being done to the mages of Thedas, while Anders would be able to help out his friend and gain both the power and drive to see it through.
 
As with so many things that go horribly, horribly wrong, it was done with the best intentions.

Oh I so wish they talked to my Amell first though... Although I'm pretty sure she'd yell at both of them for such a horrible idea; she'd tell them they'd become an abomation and she just couldn't allow it though...

[RoseLawliet]

There's a conversation that can happen in Awakening if Wynne lived through Origins. She asks you to find a botanist, but can be persuaded to talk about the situation of mages. My Warden (queen, if such information is necessary) had brought Anders, Nathaniel, and Oghren to that talk where she told Wynne that if mages didn't fight for their freedom, they'd never get it. And no, I didn't know what would happen in DA2*. I played the games in order.

 

So it's possible he could hear someone other than Justice suggesting mages be more active/aggressive/whatever about rights.

 

*Act 3 does make me sad, though. Anders went and did all that without me

[Sah291]

So it's possible he could hear someone other than Justice suggesting mages be more active/aggressive/whatever about rights.

Yep, and the Warden can also have dialogue encouraging Justice to think it is ok to want love, have human desires, etc. Which I totally did in my game, lol.

If the Warden was a mage who chose to make Alistair king and free the circle... Then Cassandra's suspicions about it being a conspiracy were at least plausable, even if it wasn't exactly true.

[GoldenGail3]

There's a conversation that can happen in Awakening if Wynne lived through Origins. She asks you to find a botanist, but can be persuaded to talk about the situation of mages. My Warden (queen, if such information is necessary) had brought Anders, Nathaniel, and Oghren to that talk where she told Wynne that if mages didn't fight for their freedom, they'd never get it. And no, I didn't know what would happen in DA2*. I played the games in order.
 
So it's possible he could hear someone other than Justice suggesting mages be more active/aggressive/whatever about rights.
 
*Act 3 does make me sad, though. Anders went and did all that without me

My Queen Cousland is deeply disappointed with your Queen Cousland, lol.

[huyre]

I think that without Justice he might still have become some SJW for mages, but not that extreme (I hope). Justice probably put the focus on the mage issue constantly, making it a life goal for himself and Anders.

Justice never struck me as the patient sort and he likely did not quite get how the human world works; reforms and changes can take years, decades or centuries. If they happen at all. You can not force society's mindset and treatment of mages to change by removing Circles. But Justice and Anders simply did not get/consider that. Justice probably just wanted “justice” as soon as possible, whatever way possible. He would probably not stop egging Anders on until justice had prevailed.

And possessing Anders gave him a biased view on everything mage (Anders hated and opposed the Circle the moment he arrived). I am not a fan of Circles, but not every mage hates being in the Circle (Finn) or is badly treated by Templars (Ella, if she returns, Bethany, etc.).
 

[RoseLawliet]

My Queen Cousland is deeply disappointed with your Queen Cousland, lol.

 

I'm a sucker for people getting treated like people. And I suppose both of our Wardens are lucky the other never existed for more reasons than one

[DebatableBubble]

Wouldn't make a difference. My characters wouldn't rest till the mage filth are squashed like insects. 

 

 

fo srs tho, i hate the plebs

[GoldenGail3]

I'm a sucker for people getting treated like people. And I suppose both of our Wardens are lucky the other never existed for more reasons than one

My Cousland does believe in treating people like people, but with Mages - she's very cautious with them, it's more out of fear then cautious really, but she does it out safety of her country because to allow let mages run rampant on the streets - turning into abomantions, misuse of magic... Etc. She believes that the Templar's are a nessity but that well Mages should be allowed to go outside of the circle to go be healers in some nearby village or something alike and that Templar's should act more like police man rather than Jailers to the Mages - it'd work out in everyone favor in they did that...

[RoseLawliet]

Yes, police are necessary and they need to be able to subdue who they're pursuing. The thing I despise about the way it's set up in Dragon Age is that everyone seems to think it's a religious issue, where the only people with the skills/abilities are religious zealots, and the religion has an allegedly divinely-granted monopoly on both the policed and the police. (And lyrium.)

 

My perfect solution would be mandatory education for everyone about what exactly mages are and are not capable of. "Templars" should exist, but they should be required to be secular. That doesn't mean they can't be religious, it means their religion would be overruled by laws and orders. Magical schools should exist as a matter of safety, but these should be local as often as possible. Allow mages to remain in their communities and soon the fear surrounding them would be challenged with "But I know a mage," or "My sibling is a mage".

 

And friendships between mages and templars gets tricky. Yes, it's a humanizing force, but it's also a source of conflicts of interest (which, I believe, is why templars are canonically disciplined harshly for getting too friendly or intimate with mages).

 

Edit: I also really want it to become more widely known how the Avvar deal with mages. I'd love to see how the rest of the world takes that news. The single optional wartable mission isn't enough for me.

Użytkownik RoseLawliet edytował ten post 17 marzec 2016 - 08:21

[vertigomez]

^ I imagine it would go really badly for the Avvar, which would be a damn shame. But I suppose, like the Dalish, some of their clans are so isolated (or nomadic...) that the Templars wouldn't bother with them.

[RoseLawliet]

Sigh. I know. But I can be stupidly optimistic, right? And hope that if the world learns there is a not insignificant group of mages that all join with a spirit at least temporarily, that they'll wonder "Hey, this is a thing? It's safe? Wow! We should do more of this!" Right?

 

I know, wishful thinking.

[DebatableBubble]

No, it absolutely is not safe, I don't know how anyone could think joining with some otherworldly force is safe.

[GoldenGail3]

Rose Lawliet. The Seeker's do that, but they must become Tranquil in order to do so. I would love to see all mages doing the Seeker's trial. It'd be a far more effective then doing the Harrowing; actually they should do the Harrowing, then do the Seeker's techinque, thereby making all Mages save from getting possessed by demons. They'd be able to leave the Circle, and etc..

[RoseLawliet]

GoldenGail3: Rose Lawliet. The Seeker's do that, but they must become Tranquil in order to do so. I would love to see all mages doing the Seeker's trial. It'd be a far more effective then doing the Harrowing; actually they should do the Harrowing, then do the Seeker's techinque, thereby making all Mages save from getting possessed by demons. They'd be able to leave the Circle, and etc..

 

The difference I see is that the Avvar don't become Tranquil first. (Do they? I haven't been able to find anything saying they do.) As can be seen if you bring Cassandra to see Ameridan, he's horrified that Tranquility has been used on mages. Probably because the way Seekers cure themselves is by communing with a spirit of Faith. Ugh. This coupled with a codex entry from DAO makes me actually, legitimately, real world sad for non-Andrastian mages.

 

"Those mages who honor the Maker and keep his laws we welcome as our brothers and sisters. Those who reject the laws of the Maker and the words of His prophet are apostate. They shall be cast out, and given no place among us." That's from the DAO entry on maleficarum, which is a sermon by Justinia II.

[GoldenGail3]

GoldenGail3: Rose Lawliet. The Seeker's do that, but they must become Tranquil in order to do so. I would love to see all mages doing the Seeker's trial. It'd be a far more effective then doing the Harrowing; actually they should do the Harrowing, then do the Seeker's techinque, thereby making all Mages save from getting possessed by demons. They'd be able to leave the Circle, and etc..
 

The difference I see is that the Avvar don't become Tranquil first. (Do they? I haven't been able to find anything saying they do.) As can be seen if you bring Cassandra to see Ameridan, he's horrified that Tranquility has been used on mages. Probably because the way Seekers cure themselves is by communing with a spirit of Faith. Ugh. This coupled with a codex entry from DAO makes me actually, legitimately, real world sad for non-Andrastian mages.
 
"Those mages who honor the Maker and keep his laws we welcome as our brothers and sisters. Those who reject the laws of the Maker and the words of His prophet are apostate. They shall be cast out, and given no place among us." That's from the DAO entry on maleficarum, which is a sermon by Justinia II.

I'm sorry bout that. Real bad interent connection.

1. I'm trying to come up with a reasonable middle ground between us; though it's really not okay to let mages totally off the leash; they are dangerous and can be turned into Abomations, turn to Blood Magic... Can attack an entire city with their Magic if left to their own devices, chaos will ensure all across Thedas if the Mages won (and I'm a unbias Templar supporter in DAI. Sir Barris is a god among men in my opinion and he deserves all of the support he can get, though I was a Mage supporter in DA2 & DAO though). So I suppose that giving the Mages what Cassandra had would be effectly render this conversion null, as the Mage would be become a Seeker of Truth (I think Mages should be allowed the Seekers... And the Templar's too, becuase of Mages can use Anti-Magic as well and it'd be cool if mages and Templar's could work side by side to protect the world.)

[springacres]

Oh I so wish they talked to my Amell first though... Although I'm pretty sure she'd yell at both of them for such a horrible idea; she'd tell them they'd become an abomation and she just couldn't allow it though...

I wish they would have talked to my Surana.  He would have tried to talk them both out of it.  As it was, it was a nasty surprise for him to follow Zev to Kirkwall and discover Anders was alive and possessed.  I suspect the reunion with Anders involved a lot of yelling, followed by mutual recriminations and a refusal on the Warden's part to refer to Anders by any name other than "Justice" henceforth.  And an unflattering comparison with Jowan.