194 réponses à ce sujet

[Heimdall]

Agreed on Krem! As for the Qun I was under the impression that it was ruled over by the join efforts 3 different organizations?

The Priests which deal with social issues and rules (which Sten says woman are normally priests in DA:O), the Matriarchy which put those rules into practice (essentially their bureaucratic leaders), and then Arishok with the Military (which is primarily composed of men). So women heavily dominate the Social and Political lives of the Qun while Men dominate Military issues ... which now that I think about it makes a lot of sense if you consider that their isn't monogamous or polygamous relationships within the Qun. Without those relationship dynamics men may simply be considered more expendable since they aren't the ones that have to bring a child to term and are capable of impregnating multiple females at a time. They are also physical powerhouses, so maybe that's why they traditionally deal with the fighting LOL?! The women keep the Qun functioning, the least the males could do is keep it safe.

Also, don't the Tamassrans (the Den-Mother like figures) choose the jobs for all the children in the Qun? Wouldn't that imply that they are the ones enforcing the gender specific jobs? I could be misinterpreting it though.

I believe the divisions are Military, Priest, Artisan. The latter two being led by females though as I understand it both males and females can be part of the priesthood. They're three parts of the Qunari whole that work together on decision making. The Arishok could not launch a full scale invasion without the others agreeing for example. That's what makes it a triumvirate.

What I find odd about the arrangement is that the artisan section is entirely female. I mean, we're not just talking about fine crafts, we're talking about the hard backbreaking labor of farmwork and construction. It perplexes me that they would not want to make use of some of this male physical strength to that end... Though maybe that's what they use qamek thralls for (There's a chilling thought...)

[CardButton]

I believe the divisions are Military, Priest, Artisan. The latter two being led by females though as I understand it both males and females can be part of the priesthood. They're three parts of the Qunari whole that work together on decision making. The Arishok could not launch a full scale invasion without the others agreeing for example. That's what makes it a triumvirate.

What I find odd about the arrangement is that the artisan section is entirely female. I mean, we're not just talking about fine crafts, we're talking about the hard backbreaking labor of farmwork and construction. It perplexes me that they would not want to make use of some of this male physical strength to that end... Though maybe that's what they use qamek thralls for (There's a chilling thought...)

Ewww ... thats a icky thought. D:

[AlanC9]

What I find odd about the arrangement is that the artisan section is entirely female. I mean, we're not just talking about fine crafts, we're talking about the hard backbreaking labor of farmwork and construction. It perplexes me that they would not want to make use of some of this male physical strength to that end... Though maybe that's what they use qamek thralls for (There's a chilling thought...)

We don't have hard data on sexual dimorphism among kossith. Or really, for any race.

[nightscrawl]

Interesting, and not in a good way. I've never gotten into that dialogue sequence. All my IQs have been either unwilling to get into the subject or completely indifferent to it.

See my post here.

It is subjective, of course, but I don't find either of their tones to be overly harsh. You can find all of the options on YT by searching for "inquisition chargers drink options," and then "iron bull about krem," for the investigate. I had to sift through several videos to see everything, since many of them pick the same one for that dialogue.

[Heimdall]

We don't have hard data on sexual dimorphism among kossith. Or really, for any race.

I generally assume it follows human patterns of men being physically stronger on average. The dimorphism in body models in DAI would seem to support this.

[Heimdall]

Interesting, and not in a good way. I've never gotten into that dialogue sequence. All my IQs have been either unwilling to get into the subject or completely indifferent to it.

My reaction was subjective, but I found myself resenting the way IB seemed to assume I was ignorant or prejudiced in his reaction. It felt like Weekes was emphasizing Krem's transgenderism and shouting "DEAL WITH IT" in my face.

I frequently get annoyed by this kind of showcasing, nothing will ever be normalized if you insist on raising a fanfare everytime it appears. (Speaking more generally)

[Witch Cocktor]

My reaction was subjective, but I found myself resenting the way IB seemed to assume I was ignorant or prejudiced in his reaction. It felt like Weekes was emphasizing Krem's transgenderism and shouting "DEAL WITH IT" in my face.

I frequently get annoyed by this kind of showcasing, nothing will ever be normalized if you insist on raising a fanfare everytime it appears. (Speaking more generally)

 

I kinda agree with this. I felt Bull was a bit more passionate about this subject than you'd think he'd be. His reasoning was good, like who are we to judge anyone, but I felt it was a bit... just a bit more on the hostile/defensive side. 

 

But to be honest, I didn't understand why even put the '' her being a him ain't a problem then? '' option there but you know, whatevs.

 

I never pick this subject to talk about anyway, or even acknowledge Krem being trans beyond accepting who he is. Whenever the binding conversation comes up, I roll my eyes a bit since it's so kind of slapdashed to the whole conversation and when the option wheel comes up, I don't even ask about it further, since I am not interested in what Krem is. He is boring and insignificant to me and my inquisitors, sorry!

[thesuperdarkone2]

Weekes' statement reminds me way too much of when EA won the "Worst company in America" vote and then claimed that the only reason that occurred was that everyone hated them for having gay romances.

[Bayonet Hipshot]

My reaction was subjective, but I found myself resenting the way IB seemed to assume I was ignorant or prejudiced in his reaction. It felt like Weekes was emphasizing Krem's transgenderism and shouting "DEAL WITH IT" in my face.

I frequently get annoyed by this kind of showcasing, nothing will ever be normalized if you insist on raising a fanfare everytime it appears. (Speaking more generally)

 

But to be honest, I didn't understand why even put the '' her being a him ain't a problem then? '' option there but you know, whatevs.

 

As for my views on Krem, I never had any desire to disagree with his transgender identity. What annoyed me was the overly confrontational and accusing way Iron Bull leapt in to explain. It completely turned me off both characters for awhile.

 

This. I was roleplaying a Dalish Elf mage and she had never seen a transgender before in her entire life so naturally, she was curious and wanted to find out more. But all she got was accusatory scolding about what she should think. When I myself heard what Bull was saying, it reminded me of  SJWs who love to be accusatory to neutral & curious people. I'm like "I am seeing something weird and different for the first time in my life, so I am curious about it. Let's try to find out about it. Oh wait, what ? I am just supposed to accept what you say & be done with it. How typical of a Qunari to do such a thing." Truly, the way Iron Bull approach the subject matter reminded me of non-thinking individuals who dislike curiosity and dislike people who want to learn. You do and behave as you are told to or you get accusatory fanfare.

 

As for the Qun as a philosophy, I find it to be thoroughly disgusting. To me, the Qun is an unhealthy blend of the worst parts of Islam and Confucianism. It outright bans thinking & restricts it only for specific peoples and it does not encourage the pursuit of knowledge and understanding but instead shoves conformity down people's throats under the guise of "roles and purpose". At least the Chantry under Leliana as a Divine Victoria becomes somewhat enlightened but the Qun are a bunch of non-thinking barbaric buffoons who take it on themselves to impose themselves into other people's lives when they did not ask for it. All because some long dead philosopher said so and recorded it in one book which the Qun holds up as the ultimate source of everything (much like how Muslims view the Quran). This even gets worse as the game progresses and you enter the Trespasser DLC. What business do the Qun have to enter a sovereign region, plant a bunch of explosives around (just like Muslim terrorists do) and then demand people who are living there to "end their magic, etc" I wish my Inquisitor could have asked Viddasala what would it be like if the Inquisition decides to enter Seheron or Par Vollen, plant a bunch of explosives around and then demand the people who are living there to "end their adherence to the Qun, etc" 
 

[In Exile]

I generally assume it follows human patterns of men being physically stronger on average. The dimorphism in body models in DAI would seem to support this.

Expect there's no supposed difference in ability gender wise. It's probably a waste to try and solve the logic you'd need to work around both issues.

[In Exile]

My reaction was subjective, but I found myself resenting the way IB seemed to assume I was ignorant or prejudiced in his reaction. It felt like Weekes was emphasizing Krem's transgenderism and shouting "DEAL WITH IT" in my face.

I frequently get annoyed by this kind of showcasing, nothing will ever be normalized if you insist on raising a fanfare everytime it appears. (Speaking more generally)

But it's perfectly reasonable for the IB to be unreasonably defensive.

[Biotic Apostate]

Because the "qun retcon" argument pops up every now and then, here is a response from David Gaider from 2010 (yes, TEN) about Qunari and gender

"What Sten meant was that qunari females don't become soldiers-- they don't live by their blade or get trained in combat. This doesn't mean that they are incapable of fighting when the situation calls for it. That would be a very un-feminine thing to do. If a female qunari persisted down such a path, however, that would call into question their gender-- socially (not biologically, which is something that really only concerns the Tamassrans) qunari are identified by their role. A qunari that fights is a male, for all intents and purposes. Every other qunari would simply refuse to see it otherwise."

 

And here's one from 2015

"Krem only requires you to understand that the Qunari see gender as a role -- if you are a warrior, you are a male"

 

Just like you are not a person, but an object if you are a mage under the Qun, so do other roles have influence on your social standing (and that includes gender in the Qun). Sten said that you cannot identify as both a warrior and a female. He said "one of those must be false." You are either a woman, so not a warrior, or a warrior, and therefore not a woman.

 

And you don't get to ask a trans person "Have you tried to seek any form of help or surgery?" because that is highly personal, and something you could ask a close friend, not someone you just met. Curiosity is one thing, asking about stuff that is none of your business is another.

 

Concerning the "role playing" option of being disgusted by Dorian's homosexuality - it is unnecessary, not supported by lore, and I hope if BW ever does end up including it, it comes with the penalty of loosing that companion. Any self respecting gay person would not tolerate that "I disapprove of your sexuality, but let's be friends" crap.

 

You can disagree with Cassandra or Vivienne, because of their beliefs, not over a part of who they are as a person. And comparing disapproving of Dorian's sexuality to disapproving of Blackwall committing murder is some serious mental gymnastics.

[ThePhoenixKing]

My reaction was subjective, but I found myself resenting the way IB seemed to assume I was ignorant or prejudiced in his reaction. It felt like Weekes was emphasizing Krem's transgenderism and shouting "DEAL WITH IT" in my face.

I frequently get annoyed by this kind of showcasing, nothing will ever be normalized if you insist on raising a fanfare everytime it appears. (Speaking more generally)

 

Yeah, it's the anvilicious nature of this that bugs me, and it's frustrating how Bioware's default tone on the subject of diversity and identity politics always gravitates towards "condescending filibuster." There are few things worse than getting lectured at, even (or perhaps especially) if you agree with the general substance of the argument in question. Subtlety has its advantages, and not everything has to be a thinkpiece.

 

To be absolutely clear, I don't mind Bioware having diverse characters, including those on the LGBT spectrum. Quite the contrary, that was one of the many things I liked about Origins, and I'll even admit that it was a positive of DAII (Anders aside, but then again, 30% of the problems of that game revolve around him anyway). What I mind is they approach it with all the restraint and tact of a five year old hopped up on sugar jumping on the bed. "See, see, see?! Look over here! I'm progressive! Pay attention! SEE?!" It's also especially galling that they're beating the identity politics drum so hard when there are substantial issues with the core narrative and characterizations that they could be addressing instead.

 

And for the record, I'm an LGBT-friendly university educated feminist liberal who donates to several NGOs and wouldn't vote for the Tories if my life depended on it, so if anyone out there wants to get into a progressive pissing contest with me, don't bother.

[Battlebloodmage]

Personally, the best way they should have approach it is to treat it as an non-issue, rather than make a big deal out of it, in both how Dorian and Krem were written. It's not only creating an inclusive space where LGBT feel welcome but it also makes them feel like a part of the world and nothing stand out about them. By bringing issues to it basically make them stand out and at the same time, creating a discriminatory space within the game. Thus, in an effort to be inclusive, they end up creating discrimination and unwelcome space even within the game where LGBT will feel rejected not only by real life but also in the fantasy world. I would very much prefer the way ME3 handles it to be honest, Cortez has a dead husband? Oh, that's cool. Shepard didn't act surprised or feel that it was out of place. If you want to marry someone of the same gender, ok, go ahead, nothing strange or stand out about it. 

[Bayonet Hipshot]

Yeah, it's the anvilicious nature of this that bugs me, and it's frustrating how Bioware's default tone on the subject of diversity and identity politics always gravitates towards "condescending filibuster." There are few things worse than getting lectured at, even (or perhaps especially) if you agree with the general substance of the argument in question. Subtlety has its advantages, and not everything has to be a thinkpiece.

 

To be absolutely clear, I don't mind Bioware having diverse characters, including those on the LGBT spectrum. Quite the contrary, that was one of the many things I liked about Origins, and I'll even admit that it was a positive of DAII (Anders aside, but then again, 30% of the problems of that game revolve around him anyway). What I mind is they approach it with all the restraint and tact of a five year old hopped up on sugar jumping on the bed. "See, see, see?! Look over here! I'm progressive! Pay attention! SEE?!" It's also especially galling that they're beating the identity politics drum so hard when there are substantial issues with the core narrative and characterizations that they could be addressing instead.

 

And for the record, I'm an LGBT-friendly university educated feminist liberal who donates to several NGOs and wouldn't vote for the Tories if my life depended on it, so if anyone out there wants to get into a progressive pissing contest with me, don't bother.

 

Its refreshing to see a liberal feminist with such views. I am in a university too and every time I see a liberal feminist, they always end up being the stereotypical SJW.

 

Quite frankly, that is what annoys me with Bioware's representation and diversity efforts. It is not that they have them but they make a big deal out of it expecting social brownie points and then when you actually see their representation and diversity, you find confrontational condescension instead of organic representation and diversity. I honestly think people would not mind Iron Bull's responses if Bioware did not make a huge deal out of Krem and Iron Bull in their interviews and press conferences. To put it bluntly, Bioware developers remind me of the so-called philanthropists who donate lots of money to causes and then makes a huge deal out of it in press conferences and conversations that they have to gain moral superiority. "Look people, we have all this diversity and representation ! Isn't this awesome ? Aren't we awesome ? Please say yes !" It reeks of narcissism and desperation.

 

Contrast Bioware's approach to representation and diversity with CDPR's approach and Bethesdá's approach. They just have their diverse characters but they don't make a big deal about it. You do not see Todd Howard making a big deal about the Sole Survivor being able to have sexual relationships not just with humans of the same sex, but with robots/synths and ghouls as well. You do not see Todd going around fishing for brownie points. You don't see Witcher 3 developers make a big deal about a side quest  that featured a homosexual man or the fact that mages and non-Humans are genuinely oppressed in order to gain social approval and validation. All they do is - "Here's our game, its has interesting story, world and characters. Hope you enjoy playing it."

[AlanC9]

I generally assume it follows human patterns of men being physically stronger on average. The dimorphism in body models in DAI would seem to support this.

Though the armies have an awfully large percentage of women in them. This isn't a problem for the PC and companions, of course, who are exceptional by definition.

[ThePhoenixKing]

Contrast Bioware's approach to representation and diversity with CDPR's approach and Bethesdá's approach. They just have their diverse characters but they don't make a big deal about it. You do not see Todd Howard making a big deal about the Sole Survivor being able to have sexual relationships not just with humans of the same sex, but with robots/synths and ghouls as well. You do not see Todd going around fishing for brownie points. You don't see Witcher 3 developers make a big deal about a side quest  that featured a homosexual man or the fact that mages and non-Humans are genuinely oppressed in order to gain social approval and validation. All they do is - "Here's our game, its has interesting story, world and characters. Hope you enjoy playing it."

 

Yeah, both Bethesda and CDPR have approached issues relating to identity politics with a lot more confidence than Bioware has lately, and it shows. They don't have to make a big production out of these things, they just simply are, you know? And even better, they don't let sexual orientation be the defining characteristic of their characters either. Ciri's a good example; while it's pretty much confirmed she's bi in Wild Hunt, it is just one part of what makes her who she is, and she has character traits beyond that (for example, her loyalty towards her friends and comrades, her frustrations that deal with her magics and the lineage of the Elder Blood, her love for Geralt and Yennefer, etc).

 

Personally, the best way they should have approach it is to treat it as an non-issue, rather than make a big deal out of it, in both how Dorian and Krem were written. It's not only creating an inclusive space where LGBT feel welcome but it also makes them feel like a part of the world and nothing stand out about them. By bringing issues to it basically make them stand out and at the same time, creating a discriminatory space within the game. Thus, in an effort to be inclusive, they end up creating discrimination and unwelcome space even within the game where LGBT will feel rejected not only by real life but also in the fantasy world. I would very much prefer the way ME3 handles it to be honest, Cortez has a dead husband? Oh, that's cool. Shepard didn't act surprised or feel that it was out of place. If you want to marry someone of the same gender, ok, go ahead, nothing strange or stand out about it. 

 

Very good point about Cortez. Both he and Traynor were really well-written, and not just token same-sex romance options, and that's something that Bioware needs to recognize: LBGT characters are just that, characters, and need to be as well rounded, engaging and sympathetic as any other.

[Heimdall]

But it's perfectly reasonable for the IB to be unreasonably defensive.

Honestly I felt like it was a little out of character for him, thus it felt more like the writer was preaching to me than Iron Bull being reasonable.  Especially since Dragon Age hasn't had such outbursts before, it felt out of place especially in a world that tends to be very accepting of about issues concerning gender outside of tevinter (unless you want to be a male priest).

 

And even if it is in character, that kind of unreasonable defensiveness is still unpleasant and alienating.  I really don't think it was Bioware's best choice for a scene intended to introduce a positive transgender character: Meeting curiosity and the desire to understand with hostility.

[Dai Grepher]

@nightscrawl

 

It's more nuanced than that. The Inquisitor can say something like, "That's a big problem in Tevinter?" Dorian merely says it is if your family is part of the magisterium. While some will claim that implies it is accepted outside the magisterium, it doesn't confirm that. It could still be considered a problem to the lower classes, just not a big one, since they typically have many more pressing problems to worry about, like finding food to eat. I also disagree that it's about breeding. Dorian's father would still have had a problem with Dorian's sexuality even if he had sired an heir. That is why bloodmagic was considered, to change Dorian's mindset fundamentally. If it had only been about marriage and an heir, a much different path would have been chosen.

 

Hissrad and Tallis are spies in foreign lands. I doubt the Qunari know about their exploits, and if they do, they may dismiss it as necessary for the success of the mission, or they may face reeducation when they return. But I doubt Iron Bull mentions his sexual encounters in his reports. As for the official Qunari position, Hissrad and Tallis will each be matched with their proper counterparts in order to produce a worthy breed. Period. As for Hissrad's claim about the Tamassrans, I doubt it's as he portrays it. More likely it involves the subject sitting in meditation or being hit with kendo sticks until their "frustration" is gone. "Pop your cork" could mean anything to Hissrad.

 

No, City Elves have arranged marriages, and the Dalish have the custom of the male proving himself an adult so he can approach the female with the proposition of marriage.

 

Eh? I don't remember mentioning NPCs. Anyway, Blackwall has banter with Dorian saying that he knows his type. Vivienne mocks Sera's "marriage" to the Inquisitor and sarcastically says, "Good luck having THAT recognized". And Cullen calls Wade and Herren troublesome for some unexplained reason. Also, Vivienne doesn't defend it. Seems to me like she was defending the Inquisitor's reputation by denying the rumor entirely. But I have not heard the banter first hand. Maybe I heard it in a YouTube banter compilation video but I didn't really pay attention to it. I'm just going off what was posted above. Of course Blackwall dislikes male homosexuality, but he doesn't voice his disapproval because he knows his own past actions are much worse even in his own moral view.

 

Sure. The question is whether adding the options in question passes an ROI test. What would you cut to add this? I can think of a couple of dozen RP things I'd burn wordcount into before adding this.

 

No, this is a case of BioWare adding the alternate dialogue choice in a subject they brought up. This is like bringing up the subject of the mage rebellion and then only giving the options to agree, claim ignorance, or ask something else. You have no option to disagree with the mage rebellion. That's what it's like regarding this issue.

 

I'm just going to leave you be and hope you get your '' disapprove with homosexuality '' in the next game, because you seem to want it so and it would increase how much you enjoy the game. It's not necessarily out of my enjoyment as long as the game is filled with glorious, well-written LGBT characters that turn their back on you if you choose such opinions. None of this '' I do not disapprove of you, just of your sexuality, I wish you were straight but otherwise you fine and we are friends '' bullshit that people in the real world feed you.

 

If you have the luxury, amidst all war and chaos to have opinions on a sexuality or a gender identity, then those who represent such groups of people have the luxury to call you out on it and call you a dick, and maybe kick your ass for it. 

 

Leave me be eh? Is that why you replied to be three more times after this? You should hope for the option too, even if only to make your choice to agree with it actually mean something. You should get to choose your option because you believe in it, not because BioWare wants you to.

 

Right, because your friends agree with you 100% of the time, otherwise you sever all ties with them.

 

Yes, our characters should be verbally and physically attacked for their opinions, all in the name of tolerance.

 

I'll never get why people use the phrase 'disagree' with it...like being gay or whatever is an opinion and not a material reality.

 

Because homosexuality is defined by behavior and action.

 

You are so certain you are right and that homosexuality is bad in Thedas so I'll just leave you be. I'm sure it is a big deal there, I'm sure it is. Whatever warms your heart.

 

You wrote that already. It has nothing to do with what I believe. The games prove that Ferelden considers homosexuality to be immoral. So now that we have established that, and you are at least willing to admit that possibility, are you also willing to admit that a playable character also has basis to believe that homosexuality is immoral?

 

According to this logic a Grey warden, an infertile women or anyone using some sort of contraceptive having heterosexual sex would be considered immoral by Fereldan standards as well. Which is most likely not the case.

 

Infertility is considered a problem. The Wardens consider it a bad thing as well. Yet another sacrifice. So of course choosing a sexual preference that makes fertile people not have children would be seen as immoral. I'm sure a fertile opposite-sex couple would be seen as immoral too for not having a family together. And of course those who made Anora queen know that the banns are fretting over the fact that she still has not produced an heir. Procreation is important to all civil societies. Anything that hinders that would be considered bad.

 

I don't consider that to be petty.

I really don't agree with any of your opinions. We'll have to leave it at that.

 

You don't consider it petty to sever ties with the Inquisitor over his opinion of what is morally right regarding sexuality, even if the Inquisitor is willing to be friends despite his strongly held beliefs?

 

Well that's fine, but what about the points I made? My Inquisitor disagreed with other companions on various things, but still considered them friends. Can't that be the case with Dorian as well?

 

Petty? You think that not being friends with a person who disagrees with their identity, their self, is petty?

Why are you forcing LGBT characters in a role where they have to understand and tolerate your opinion, and just roll with the punches with nothing but a '' greatly disapproves '' text appearing in the corner?

 

As I said, if you have the stupid luxury to disagree with someones sexuality or gender identity, those people should have the goddamn luxury to hit back at you. 

 

Yes. Wouldn't I be petty if I refused to be friends with someone who disagreed with my beliefs?

 

Forcing? I thought tolerating other people's opinions was supposed to be the norm for everyone. Now, if Dorian can't handle that and doesn't want to be friends, then fine. That's on him. I'm not forcing him to be my friend. If he wants to greatly disapprove, fine. If he wants to retort with some opinion, fine.

 

HEY! WC you just disagreed with me! How dare you? I'm so offended. I will never be friends with you because you won't agree with my stance. So do I also have the luxury to "hit back" at you now? 

 

Oh, so now its male homosexuality is bad, Uhuh. The banter with Dorian is invalid because Blackwall doesn't like Dorian, not because he is gay, but because he is Tevinter magister of nobility. He says nothing of IB's relationship with Male inq.

 

Vivienne doesn't support your relationships with Sera because she doesn't, like, Sera, and think she is wildly beneath her AND the Inquisitor. She says nothing about female inquisitor dating Josefine, now does she?

 

Like, are you that effing dense not to see that the homosexuality isn't the part Viv of BW have a problem with, it's the PERSON INQ CHOSE TO DATE! They don't like them much, that's why the ergh opinion.

 

For the love of Maker...

 

No, it's still homosexuality. Blackwall is fine with female homosexuality because he sees them in a sexual context, which isn't the same as accepting it. He's using it for his own gratification. That's self-serving, not accepting. According to banter he shows aversion to male homosexuality.

 

I don't know what Vivienne says about F!Inquisitor/Josephine. If nothing, then nothing can be determined about it. But you don't know that her disapproval of F!Inquisitor/Sera has to do with her dislike of Sera. She might dislike the F!Inquisitor too. So how can Sera be beneath her?

 

No no, Vivienne makes a snide remark against a same-sex union being recognized as a marriage. So yeah, again, run that same comment by a homosexual and see how they react to it.

 

Since you're the one claiming they're proving your point, isn't it your job to post them?

 

Yes, but WC took it upon himself to post quotes he though refuted me. I just pointed out where he was wrong and that other quotes existed proving my point. But I have posted my proof above.

 

That's your evidence for Cullen??

 

Cullen says, "Wade and Herren are troublesome, but Wade's talent is undeniable. Send them whatever dragon materials we aren't using ourselves."

 

He's not referring to their homosexuality in the same way that the "trouble" remark to Dorian is not referring to his homosexuality. Have you met Wade and Herren? They are troublesome. Wade doesn't like to work on projects that are not inspiring or that don't offer a challenge, which is why Herren has to pester him to actually make money; poor, long-suffering Herren.

 

WC already addressed the rest.

 

What's he referring to then? I don't remember them being troublesome. They were quite helpful at Vigil's Keep. Wade complains, but he will make the armor for the troops regardless. That isn't troublesome. I don't think Cullen is referring to their work when he says they are troublesome. Wade was partly responsible for the Silver Order. You don't call someone like that troublesome unless there is something specific about him that troubles you.

[BansheeOwnage]

I'll probably regret posting here, or even reading this thread, but...  "What can I say? I'm a masochist."

 

According to this logic a Grey warden, an infertile women or anyone using some sort of contraceptive having heterosexual sex would be considered immoral by Fereldan standards as well. Which is most likely not the case.

Or anyone - asexual or otherwise - who simply didn't want to have children for any number of reasons. And if I wanted to argue the other way, I think I can safely say there are a lot of orphans around in Thedas these days. Gay couples adopting some of them would help.

 

As for my views on Krem, I never had any desire to disagree with his transgender identity. What annoyed me was the overly confrontational and accusing way Iron Bull leapt in to explain. It completely turned me off both characters for awhile.

See, for me, it was the opposite. It wasn't Bull's tone that bothered me - he's just defending his friend. In fact, I like that he does it in that sense. What I definitely didn't like, was railroading my Inquisitor into saying something stupid, just so Bull could do it. It was forced.

 

I'm aware these are optional questions, but for someone who is a completionist and likes to ask everything, it really irks me when they phrase it in a way I'd never say in real life, because I'd find it insulting. And more than that, there was simply no reason to phrase the Inquisitor's questions in any way close to hostile, when a simple, neutral, inquisitive (ha) phrasing would have worked fine or better.

 

It was also the opposite in the sense that it didn't really change my opinion of the characters so much as it made me annoyed at Bioware.

[vbibbi]

It feels like Weekes was being overly reactionary and predicted that most players needed to be "educated" on trans issues rather than just taking a neutral stance and providing information without being preachy.

[BansheeOwnage]

My reaction was subjective, but I found myself resenting the way IB seemed to assume I was ignorant or prejudiced in his reaction. It felt like Weekes was emphasizing Krem's transgenderism and shouting "DEAL WITH IT" in my face.

That bolded part probably had something to do with phrasing Quizzy's question like...

 

I kinda agree with this. I felt Bull was a bit more passionate about this subject than you'd think he'd be. His reasoning was good, like who are we to judge anyone, but I felt it was a bit... just a bit more on the hostile/defensive side. 

 

But to be honest, I didn't understand why even put the '' her being a him ain't a problem then? '' option there but you know, whatevs.

... that bolded part

 

Personally, the best way they should have approach it is to treat it as an non-issue, rather than make a big deal out of it, in both how Dorian and Krem were written. It's not only creating an inclusive space where LGBT feel welcome but it also makes them feel like a part of the world and nothing stand out about them. By bringing issues to it basically make them stand out and at the same time, creating a discriminatory space within the game. Thus, in an effort to be inclusive, they end up creating discrimination and unwelcome space even within the game where LGBT will feel rejected not only by real life but also in the fantasy world. I would very much prefer the way ME3 handles it to be honest, Cortez has a dead husband? Oh, that's cool. Shepard didn't act surprised or feel that it was out of place. If you want to marry someone of the same gender, ok, go ahead, nothing strange or stand out about it. 

I can't explain how much I agree with this, so this will have to do.

Spoiler

It's a horrible irony, isn't it? Including LGBT characters, presumably for the benefit of LGBT players, but (sometimes, at least) implementing them in a way that makes them stand out, like real life, instead of it being a normal thing not worthy of surprise or extra commentary.

 

I'm of the opinion that it's a lot more progressive to simply have a world that accepts people like us, than yet another one where we have to keep fighting just to justify being ourselves. There is enough of that in real life already, and to be perfectly honest, I don't want to play games to be reminded that I'm "different". I want to be seen and treated like anyone else. It's why I liked Mass Effect's approach to LGBT issues better, and it's why I liked ME and DA's approach to gender equality, for the most part anyway.

 

 

Right, because your friends agree with you 100% of the time, otherwise you sever all ties with them.

That's perfectly true. But (and I can't believe I have to repeat this) sexuality and gender identity are not opinions. They aren't something you "disagree" with. You can be disgusted by them, but if your friends do that, they're simply not your friends. You can not accept someone's gender identity, but again, if your friends do that, they're not your friends.

 

This isn't like disagreeing with your friends about which sports team is better, the best way to make a recipe, or even religion. Those are not fundamental parts of who you are that you cannot change even if you wanted to.

 

As has been already said: No self-respecting (and that's key) LGBT person would continue to hang around with people who won't accept a fundamental part of who they are.

 

It feels like Weekes was being overly reactionary and predicted that most players needed to be "educated" on trans issues rather than just taking a neutral stance and providing information without being preachy.

Yeah, it does, and much as usually like him, I resent that he thought making our character (or at least any character who wanted to know more) seem like an idiot and a jerk was justified just to give Bull an excuse to react that way. They could easily show Bull's support for Krem without doing that, and in a less... direct way.

[Midnight Bliss]

Could somebody tell me what these conversations are where Bull supposedly reacts so aggressively to the Inquisitor talking about Krem being trans? I seriously hope it isn't that investigate robot dialogue scene, - because if so that scene was plain terrible and the Inquisitor comes off like a close minded fool during it. I was SO happy when I saw Bull defend his bro from the stupid and rude Inquisitor during that scene, and I find it sorta hard to understand how anyone could have a problem with that. If anything I hope Tmen appreciated that scene, because I'm sure most Tguys would be over the moon to have a male friend who would defend them like that if somebody asked some rude and stupid question like the Inquis does in that scene.

 

Honestly that investigate option never should have existed and only showed how terrible DAI represented LGBT. Because between that and the cringe worthy question during drinks with the Chargers with the inquis loudly going "Are you a woman???" You can tell they obviously were just trying to add options for people to take a stand or act adverse over Krem being transgender, but didn't have the balls to just add a "ewwwwwwww yuck!" Response because it would have gotten in the way of their SJW soap box, and them trying to cram social hot topics into people's face while constantly telling the player "DON'T WORRY, THEY'RE NORMAL AND LIKE EVERYONE ELSE" Which just made those people end up not seeming like everyone else and making them only seem that much more different and separate from the main group.

 

If player agency is a self insert bullshit then why on Earth are you playing a role playing game where player agency is one of the core mechanics of a good role playing game ? I mean really, if you want all your decisions be made for you, why not watch a movie or read a book ?

 

Also, I do not give a damn about being progressive and representation in a video game. I am an Tamil man living in Southeast Asia. As far as I can tell, Bioware characters have never represented me in any meaningful way so I don't care about those things. I prefer well written characters and good story arcs over some nonsensical feel good quota.

 

& yes, I find BDSM to be rather demeaning. Yes, it requires consent from all the parties involved but I just cannot comprehend why you would get off on being tied up. Its weird.

 

To me, the thing is Iron Bull is not a very well written character. He acts all dominant in the bedroom either towards the Inquisitor or Dorian but cowers down to Vivienne because she wears a horny hat & that somehow reminds of a priest that is, in all likelihood, much taller and more imposing than Vivienne. He treats Dorian like crap if he is in a relationship with him. Based on the banters, he enjoys humiliating Dorian and I don't like that because Dorian is a good character.  He also assumes that every Inquisitor, regardless of sex or race or background or behavior, wants to be dominated if he express any interest in him because "training".

First of all I didn't say player agency is self insert bullshit, said people were mad because Bull's interactions don't permit their mary sue self insert bullshit they disguise with the term player agency. And I love player decisions, I think DA4 needs to really step up their game with the choice element because DAI's choices were terrible and mostly devices to just reinforce the obnoxious message the Inquisitor is perfect and amazing and can't do anything wrong and ultimately had no real consequences. I just don't love decisions that involve expecting people to change what brings them sexual gratification because the player doesn't like it and thinks it's gross. 

 

Good for you that you don't like BDSM. I found your original comments ignorant and tasteless but also didn't call you a pathetic wimp over it. Not liking something and saying as much is perfectly fine, but insulting the people who do is something else entirely.

 

Bull doesn't cower down to Vivi,- he's showing her what she wants to see and appealing to her vanity and arrogance in order to manipulate and control her. And no, he also never humiliates Dorian and treats him like crap either. If you dislike Adoribull cool but don't make things up to explain why you dislike it, it's immature and silly.

[Heimdall]

That bolded part probably had something to do with phrasing Quizzy's question like...

 

... that bolded part

Not great phrasing I grant, but its a question made in ignorance not malice, of someone that just doesn't understand the idea.  Biting people's heads off isn't helpful.

[Krypplingz]

1. Are you a woman?

I: Wait, are you...I didn't realize...

K: You didn't? Well great, now we can all talk about it.

(Goto Part 2.)

 

3. When did you know?

I: Did you always know?

K: Yes. It's not the most fortunate thing to know about yourself, growing up in Tevinter one rung above slavery.

(Goto Part 2.)

 

4. Why pass?

I: You don't have to pass for a man to be a mercenary.

K: I'm not passing as anything.

(Goto Part 2.)

 

6. And the rest of your crew?

I: Who are the others?

(Skips to the next dialog segment.)

 

Part 2

IB: In Qunadar, Krem'd be an Aqun-Athlok. That's what we call someone born one gender but living like another.

K: And Qunari don't treat those...Aqun people any different than a real man?

IB: They are real men. Just like you are.

K: Hmm...Maybe your people aren't so bad after all. 

IB: Don't get your hopes up, Krem. We still come down hard on the back talk. 

 

I don't get why peoples pantaloons get so twisted over this conversation. The 4 option is a bit awkward, but could be seen as a good intended but misguided advice on Quizzys part.

I also don't see how Iron Bull supposedly tears your throat out and spits it on the floor. Part 2 is more him comforting a friend over a sensitive issue rather than a lecture to the player. He doesn't even raise his voice or say anything bad about the player. At least that's how I see it.