194 réponses à ce sujet

[Midnight Bliss]

Not great phrasing I grant, but its a question made in ignorance not malice, of someone that just doesn't understand the idea.  Biting people's heads off isn't helpful.

Ummm if somebody said to me "So her being a him doesn't bother you?" In reference to my friend who happens to be a T guy I'd bite their head off too.

 

If anything I thought Bull was pretty nice about it compared to how I hope most people would respond to someone asking a "question" Like that about their best friend. Maybe I'm just crazy.

[Heimdall]

Ummm if somebody said to me "So her being a him doesn't bother you?" In reference to my friend who happens to be a T guy I'd bite their head off too.

If anything I thought Bull was pretty nice about it compared to how I hope most people would respond to someone asking a "question" Like that about their best friend. Maybe I'm just crazy.

You'd bite the head off someone who's making a mistake rather than actually attacking your friend?

People don't respond well to being lectured as if they were children, which is how Iron Bull comes off in that scene to many people. When I first heard of transgenderism I thought it baffling and I asked questions, not all of which were very well thought out, but the people I asked calmly explained the issue to me rather than grilling me for not knowing better, thus I came to understanding. Then I asked better questions. Your angry reaction carries with it a presumption of malice that simply isn't there.

[Midnight Bliss]

You'd bite the head off someone who's making a mistake rather than actually attacking your friend?

People don't respond well to being lectured as if they were children, which is how Iron Bull comes off in that scene to many people. When I first heard of transgenderism I thought it baffling and I asked questions, not all of which were very well thought out, but the people I asked calmly explained the issue to me rather than grilling me for not knowing better, thus I came to understanding. Then I asked better questions. Your angry reaction carries with it a presumption of malice that simply isn't there.

If somebody said "Are you okay with her being a him?" I'd react with some bite, yeah, because I'd find that question extremely offensive.

 

I feel you about the second part, though. I think the problem was the Inquisitor was just really terrible in that conversation and the player got penalized for it which was stupid. I don't know why they couldn't have just had the Inquis say "Are you cool with Krem being transgender?" Or something, I don't know. I'm sure Bull wouldn't have reacted negatively to that at all and that probably would have avoided the whole drama.

[Dai Grepher]

That's perfectly true. But (and I can't believe I have to repeat this) sexuality and gender identity are not opinions. They aren't something you "disagree" with. You can be disgusted by them, but if your friends do that, they're simply not your friends. You can not accept someone's gender identity, but again, if your friends do that, they're not your friends.

 

This isn't like disagreeing with your friends about which sports team is better, the best way to make a recipe, or even religion. Those are not fundamental parts of who you are that you cannot change even if you wanted to.

 

As has been already said: No self-respecting (and that's key) LGBT person would continue to hang around with people who won't accept a fundamental part of who they are.

 

I'm pretty sure it's possible to disagree with those things. I compare them to opinions because our beliefs define who we are. So if disagreeing with a transgender person's self-perception is intolerable because it denies who they are, then why doesn't the same apply to a person's strongly held belief of moral and immoral, true and false? Also, that person may see it as a state of being, but the one disagreeing doesn't see it that way. So who is right, and how do we know who is right if there isn't a conversation?

 

As for being disgusted, has one of your friends ever done something that disgusted you? And if so, did you stop being friends with them because of it? I have a friend who committed adultery. His sexual behavior disgusted me. I didn't just turn my back on him though.

 

I think religious people would say that their beliefs are a part of who they are and also that sexuality can be changed.

 

And would this LGBT person apply that standard to everything they do, such as smoking cigarettes for example? Many people find that disgusting, and actively encourage their friends to quit. Is that a friendship ending offense as well?

 

 

1. Are you a woman?

I: Wait, are you...I didn't realize...

K: You didn't? Well great, now we can all talk about it.

(Goto Part 2.)

 

3. When did you know?

I: Did you always know?

K: Yes. It's not the most fortunate thing to know about yourself, growing up in Tevinter one rung above slavery.

(Goto Part 2.)

 

4. Why pass?

I: You don't have to pass for a man to be a mercenary.

K: I'm not passing as anything.

(Goto Part 2.)

 

6. And the rest of your crew?

I: Who are the others?

(Skips to the next dialog segment.)

 

Part 2

IB: In Qunadar, Krem'd be an Aqun-Athlok. That's what we call someone born one gender but living like another.

K: And Qunari don't treat those...Aqun people any different than a real man?

IB: They are real men. Just like you are.

K: Hmm...Maybe your people aren't so bad after all. 

IB: Don't get your hopes up, Krem. We still come down hard on the back talk. 

 

I don't get why peoples pantaloons get so twisted over this conversation. The 4 option is a bit awkward, but could be seen as a good intended but misguided advice on Quizzys part.

I also don't see how Iron Bull supposedly tears your throat out and spits it on the floor. Part 2 is more him comforting a friend over a sensitive issue rather than a lecture to the player. He doesn't even raise his voice or say anything bad about the player. At least that's how I see it. 

 

 

That's not the one people are replying about. That one... was actually pretty decent in representation of player choice. The only problem people have with that is that Iron Bull's statement seemingly contradicts what Sten said about it in Origins.

[Krypplingz]

Him being her isn't an issue?

I: You don't have any problems with him being a woman?

IB: He's not a woman.

IB: Look, you and I have to walk carefully so we don't accidentally break the furniture or the elves (Qunari)

IB: Look, I've got horns. You've got pointy ears and those freaky, big elf eyes. (Elf)

IB: Look, I've got horns. You only come up to my knee, and you can't dream. (Dwarf)

IB: Look, I've got horns. You can shoot fire out of your ass. (Mage, human)

IB: Look, I've got horns. You've got a magic mark on your hand that makes demons pop out of the sky. (Non mage, human Quizzy)

IB: We're probably not the best people to go around deciding what's normal.

IB: Krem's a good man. I don't give a nug's ass that it's a little harder for him to [take a leak] standing up.

 

I don't see much head biting in this one either. The question is a legit one, seeing as how many get their feather ruffled about Krems identity, Bull's response is also a legit one, seeing as Krem is his buddy and he's sick of people assuming he minds Krems gender identity. He's only harsh in the "He's not a woman line", the rest is a more chill, trying to explain his point line. He's pretty chill during all those lines. (And nicely diverse depending on your race).

Bull doesn't even get mad, his tone is completely chill and there is no approval drop. 

 

But yes. I was focusing on a wrong conversation. But it's nice to have transcripts of the conversations when arguing about them yes?

---

As for the interview. It's interesting. I liked the Garrus valentines bit. 

[Witch Cocktor]

I'm pretty sure it's possible to disagree with those things. I compare them to opinions because our beliefs define who we are. So if disagreeing with a transgender person's self-perception is intolerable because it denies who they are, then why doesn't the same apply to a person's strongly held belief of moral and immoral, true and false? Also, that person may see it as a state of being, but the one disagreeing doesn't see it that way. So who is right, and how do we know who is right if there isn't a conversation?

 

As for being disgusted, has one of your friends ever done something that disgusted you? And if so, did you stop being friends with them because of it? I have a friend who committed adultery. His sexual behavior disgusted me. I didn't just turn my back on him though.

 

I think religious people would say that their beliefs are a part of who they are and also that sexuality can be changed.

 

And would this LGBT person apply that standard to everything they do, such as smoking cigarettes for example? Many people find that disgusting, and actively encourage their friends to quit. Is that a friendship ending offense as well?

So, homosexuality can be compared to adultery and smoking now. Yeah, that's nice.

[Midnight Bliss]

As for being disgusted, has one of your friends ever done something that disgusted you? And if so, did you stop being friends with them because of it? I have a friend who committed adultery. His sexual behavior disgusted me. I didn't just turn my back on him though.

If one of my "friends" said they were disgusted by me for falling in love with somebody of the same sex and then started likening it to adultery I'd be finding myself a new friend.

 

Just sayin

[Abyss108]

It's not someones job to have to sit there and answer dumb ignorent questions from everyone in their life, especially when those questions could be answered with a quick Google search. From the questioners point of view, it's only a few quick questions, but the person you are questioning has probably been asked these not-purposely offensive questions a million times before. It's not a few minutes of explaining, it's a few minutes of explaining to every single person they meet, whilst every one of those people assumes offensive things about them and shows they can't actually assed to go look up the answers to these questions themselves.

 

Now, it might be slightly harder to find the answers to those questions in Thedas with the lack of Internet, but if a hundred people asked me the same offensive question, I'd probably not be in the best mood when person one hundred and one shows up and wants me to answer the same question again.

[Heimdall]

It's not someones job to have to sit there and answer dumb ignorent questions from everyone in their life, especially when those questions could be answered with a quick Google search. From the questioners point of view, it's only a few quick questions, but the person you are questioning has probably been asked these not-purposely offensive questions a million times before. It's not a few minutes of explaining, it's a few minutes of explaining to every single person they meet, whilst every one of those people assumes offensive things about them and shows they can't actually assed to go look up the answers to these questions themselves.

 

Now, it might be slightly harder to find the answers to those questions in Thedas with the lack of Internet, but if a hundred people asked me the same offensive question, I'd probably not be in the best mood when person one hundred and one shows up and wants me to answer the same question again.

Your frustration is understandable, but knowledge has to come from somewhere.  Would you rather nobody cared enough to ask?

[Abyss108]

Your frustration is understandable, but knowledge has to come from somewhere.  Would you rather nobody cared enough to ask?

 

I think people should care enough to find the answers themselves. Or if that truly is too much trouble, to actually think about what they say if they are asking about a very private subject like that.

[Heimdall]

I think people should care enough to find the answers themselves. Or if that truly is too much trouble, to actually think about what they say if they are asking about a very private subject like that.

They are finding the answers themselves, by asking the closest source of information: you.  They might not even know what to look for.  You're assuming the person in question is knowledgeable enough to understand what is and isn't offensive to ask about a subject he/she knows nothing about.

[Abyss108]

They are finding the answers themselves, by asking the closest source of information: you.  They might not even know what to look for.  You're assuming the person in question is knowledgeable enough to understand what is and isn't offensive to ask about a subject he/she knows nothing about.

 

Are we talking real life or the game? I already said it's a more difficult situation in game, in real life the person can find any information they want by themselves.

 

One person's desire to learn something, doesn't mean they have a right to demand time and answers from someone else about their personal life whilst insulting them. Just because one person has more of an understanding of a subject doesn't mean they are obliged to explain it to every other person in the world who wants to know.

[9TailsFox]

It's not someones job to have to sit there and answer dumb ignorent questions from everyone in their life, especially when those questions could be answered with a quick Google search. From the questioners point of view, it's only a few quick questions, but the person you are questioning has probably been asked these not-purposely offensive questions a million times before. It's not a few minutes of explaining, it's a few minutes of explaining to every single person they meet, whilst every one of those people assumes offensive things about them and shows they can't actually assed to go look up the answers to these questions themselves.

 

Now, it might be slightly harder to find the answers to those questions in Thedas with the lack of Internet, but if a hundred people asked me the same offensive question, I'd probably not be in the best mood when person one hundred and one shows up and wants me to answer the same question again.

So why even give us option to ask if it is so bad? I didn't ask I pick line for my Inquisitor from given options. Inquisitor to neutral. Warden can be evil and treat everyone like crap. Even king Cailan was nice to warden elf, and warden is like get lost shemlen.

[Biotic Apostate]

I'm pretty sure it's possible to disagree with those things. I compare them to opinions because our beliefs define who we are. So if disagreeing with a transgender person's self-perception is intolerable because it denies who they are, then why doesn't the same apply to a person's strongly held belief of moral and immoral, true and false? Also, that person may see it as a state of being, but the one disagreeing doesn't see it that way. So who is right, and how do we know who is right if there isn't a conversation?

 

As for being disgusted, has one of your friends ever done something that disgusted you? And if so, did you stop being friends with them because of it? I have a friend who committed adultery. His sexual behavior disgusted me. I didn't just turn my back on him though.

 

I think religious people would say that their beliefs are a part of who they are and also that sexuality can be changed.

 

And would this LGBT person apply that standard to everything they do, such as smoking cigarettes for example? Many people find that disgusting, and actively encourage their friends to quit. Is that a friendship ending offense as well?

Being homosexual is not something that can be harmful to others like smoking (which is a habit, not a core feature of a person). And comparing it to adultery is just insulting. You should do some thinking, if you honestly believe that the comparison between homosexual people in general (including many loving and faithful couples) to cheating on a spouse holds any water.

 

It's funny that religious people cling to the "sexuality is a choice" argument, since religion is a choice that can easily be altered, and no one has ever given any proof that sexuality can be changed.

[Heimdall]

Are we talking real life or the game? I already said it's a more difficult situation in game, in real life the person can find any information they want by themselves.

 

One person's desire to learn something, doesn't mean they have a right to demand time and answers from someone else about their personal life whilst insulting them. Just because one person has more of an understanding of a subject doesn't mean they are obliged to explain it to every other person in the world who wants to know.

They don't have a right to demand answers, I agree, I just want to make clear that by denying them answers you are denying them the opportunity to improve themselves and their understanding, not to mention the option to make sure they get what you consider to be the correct answer rather than whatever possible misinformation they might dig up on their own.  I don't want to suggest that people are obliged to explain, just that doing so is only a good thing in the long run.

[Biotic Apostate]

They don't have a right to demand answers, I agree, I just want to make clear that by denying them answers you are denying them the opportunity to improve themselves and their understanding, not to mention the option to make sure they get what you consider to be the correct answer rather than whatever possible misinformation they might dig up on their own.  I don't want to suggest that people are obliged to explain, just that doing so is only a good thing in the long run.

I recommend this

 

The first minute or so shows how terrible people are about phrasing their questions, and how downright uncomfortable it is to be asked about what is in your pants. Consider how often trans people have to deal with people who discriminate against them and on top of that, with people who are trying to be supportive, but end up being offensive. Wanting to be informed is fine, but many people lack tact, and don't understand how a lot of the questions they are asking are just too personal to answer.

[Heimdall]

I recommend this

 

The first minute or so shows how terrible people are about phrasing their questions, and how downright uncomfortable it is to be asked about what is in your pants. Consider how often trans people have to deal with people who discriminate against them and on top of that, with people who are trying to be supportive, but end up being offensive. Wanting to be informed is fine, but many people lack tact, and don't understand how a lot of the questions they are asking are just too personal to answer.

I understand that, but I'm just not sure how you can expect people to be better informed if they don't ask questions.

[Biotic Apostate]

I understand that, but I'm just not sure how you can expect people to be better informed if they don't ask questions.

If they ask questions, they should be respectful. And if they want to be educated, there are groups for that, organizations, loads of materials on the internet, explaining the terminology, transition, etc. Considering most people know how to use google, it really is not an issue for curious people to get the information they want.

[Abyss108]

They don't have a right to demand answers, I agree, I just want to make clear that by denying them answers you are denying them the opportunity to improve themselves and their understanding, not to mention the option to make sure they get what you consider to be the correct answer rather than whatever possible misinformation they might dig up on their own.  I don't want to suggest that people are obliged to explain, just that doing so is only a good thing in the long run.

 

Do you often answer questions from people in great detail about your genitals whilst they make offensive comments about what you are telling them? And then answer them again for the next person? And the next? And keep doing it every day of your life? And deal with people saying you are "denying" them the ability to learn because you don't want to tell a bunch of strangers what goes on in your pants?

[Abyss108]

So why even give us option to ask if it is so bad? I didn't ask I pick line for my Inquisitor from given options. Inquisitor to neutral. Warden can be evil and treat everyone like crap. Even king Cailan was nice to warden elf, and warden is like get lost shemlen.

 

...How should I know why Bioware wrote the dialogue they did? 

[VorexRyder]

If somebody said "Are you okay with her being a him?" I'd react with some bite, yeah, because I'd find that question extremely offensive.

 

I feel you about the second part, though. I think the problem was the Inquisitor was just really terrible in that conversation and the player got penalized for it which was stupid. I don't know why they couldn't have just had the Inquis say "Are you cool with Krem being transgender?" Or something, I don't know. I'm sure Bull wouldn't have reacted negatively to that at all and that probably would have avoided the whole drama.

In the 21st century, where awareness of transpeople is much more widespread. Would you also bite the head off of a 14th century person that a smart phone used magic?

 

Modern comm infrastructure and globalization have done wonders for the general knowledge levels of the average person.

 

If they ask questions, they should be respectful. And if they want to be educated, there are groups for that, organizations, loads of materials on the internet, explaining the terminology, transition, etc. Considering most people know how to use google, it really is not an issue for curious people to get the information they want.

You're assuming that they even know that they didn't know something before that moment + not everyone can speak fancy as a default. I use words like **** & **** liberally in causal conversations, that doesn't mean I'm insulting others.

 

 

The word transgender doesn't even seem to exist in Thedas(beyond aqun-athlok, which Hissrad might've bullshitted about see:"Keeper of Illusions/Liar", to make his son(Krem de la Creme) feel better.), all of the dialogue options imply a level of unfamiliarity with the subject.

 

 

Also, my issues with IB&Sera are that the one lesbian is a mess of bad writing and negative stereotypes(Psycho Lesbian, Abusive), and that the bi(not pan, because f*ck the implication that bi means transphobic) dude is depraved and abusive as all hell when compared with the bi chick.

[Biotic Apostate]

You're assuming that they even know that they didn't know something before that moment + not everyone can speak fancy as a default. I use words like **** & **** liberally in causal conversations, that doesn't mean I'm insulting others.

Being respectful is not "speaking fancy," it's knowing to not ask questions like "hey do you still have a **** there?" You wouldn't ask a guy you just met if he's circumcised, the same should go for trans people about asking them about surgeries they had or other overly personal questions.

[VorexRyder]

Being respectful is not "speaking fancy," it's knowing to not ask questions like "hey do you still have a **** there?" You wouldn't ask a guy you just met if he's circumcised, the same should go for trans people about asking them about surgeries they had or other overly personal questions.

If they come from a region were circumcision is uncommon and something related to the subject(ex: converted to Judaism) came up, I probably would.

[Heimdall]

Do you often answer questions from people in great detail about your genitals whilst they make offensive comments about what you are telling them? And then answer them again for the next person? And the next? And keep doing it every day of your life? And deal with people saying you are "denying" them the ability to learn because you don't want to tell a bunch of strangers what goes on in your pants?

Those aren't the type of questions I thought we were talking about, but at any rate the answer is yes: if you want them to understand you.

 

If you really don't give a damn about them or what they think, then tell them to f*ck off, but don't be surprised when they're just as ignorant the next time you see them.

[Biotic Apostate]

If they come from a region were circumcision is uncommon and something related to the subject(ex: converted to Judaism) came up, I probably would.

And that person has the right to decline answering you. Just like a trans person has zero reason to tell you about their genitals.