108 réponses à ce sujet

[Draining Dragon]

Oh BSN...

[Kaweebo]

That was just a consequence of jacob's 'mance being very unpopular, not unlike how morinth ended up being a generic banshee on earth.

Probably, but seeing a diversity of romantic situations between the PC and NPCs that aren't just 'and they loved each other till the end of time' is still neat to me.

[In Exile]

This thread went exactly as I expected.

You expected a four page conversation/argument about black people in Canada?

[Draining Dragon]

You expected a four page conversation/argument about black people in Canada?

You mean you didn't?

[Animechick69]

 

[SlottsMachine]

Well the OP is black.

OP lives in Canada.

OP once started a thread to debate the artistic merits of pornography. (ie. whether it was becoming dumbed down or not)

 

[Gothfather]

Whether BioWare was being intentionally stereotypical or not is a matter of subjective mindset. My only issue here is the fact that FemSheps lost out on rekindling the relationship they had with Jacob based on events they could not control. That was not the case for any other companion. I will not speak for the OP nor will I assume what he/she intends. What I do know is that Jacob could have been handled better.

 Boo FRAKING HOO.

 

There are a bunch of Thane 'mancers upset that only their love interest was doomed to failure because of him dying. male shep didn't have a doomed romance it is so unfair sexism at its peek. Yawn.

 

"handled better" implies that the only goal of a story is to give people a warm fuzzy feeling which I don't believe at all. Jacob cheated boo fraking ho get over it. Thane died boo hoo, it seemed to me the only choice I had for a romance partner in the trilogy were two mousey characters in liara (at least in me1) and Tali, A racist git and a terrorist cheerleader. looks like there were flaws all around on the romance front.

 

Seems to me that in one way or another every romance had its flaws and it just a little convenient to pin Jacob's flaws to racism accidental or not. Daddy issues? clearly a fraking theme in Me2 Jacob was in no way singled out, unfaithful romance just one of numerous romances were the NPC character had hideous personal flaws.

 

Sure lets pretend this thread was nothing but Jacob and bad writing and anyone that challenges the BS about racism and such is just being hyper sensitive .

[UniformGreyColor]

WTF?

 

Jacob's story isn't even insensitive. What a military career results in an absentee father in the sense that he is deployed and that deployment cause the family to break up is steriotypical? Was he the only character with a bad parent? OMFG every bloody character story in ME2 seemed to be having daddy issues or being themselves a bad parent. What so jacob is one of MANY and that makes him an insensitive racial stereotype? On what planet are you thinking any rational lawyer would look at Jacob and think of all the Black portrayals in games we better start a focus group so we are not sued? That makes no sense. It is unreasonable to expect foreign nations to create products that fit perfectly into your cultural norms.

 

I am saying that National differences will create priorities that don't line up with other nations. Over the last 25 years i think LGBT minority issues were by far a more important issue than race relations for Canada as a whole because shocker Canada not being the States doesn't have the same social issues. I'd say that the biggest race relation issue Canada has is Aboriginal and getting all Aboriginal communities a change to be part of the greater Canadian community be it infrastructure, economic opportunities and addressing specific issues like the vulnerability of aboriginal women to the worse offences in the criminal code. Yet Aboriginal issues in the states are almost never reported on.

 

So what Canada has to solve its own problems and be expected to solve the fraking US' racial problems? I don't think so. Till such time as US stop gunning down it own unarmed citizens i really think Americans need to STFU about how Canada deals with race relationships. And yeah I think Canada can LOOK down on the US on this issue because we clearly have a superior record. Race doesn't come up in our Elections we have an extremely diverse cabinet (Aka the people who actually run government departments) Are things perfect. No because Canada is populated by humans and humans are flawed. But there is a measurable difference. Sorry but Rob fraking Ford is a false equivalency, he doesn't magically make canada and the US the same, because hey no place is perfect see Rob ford. Yeah like the one example you can take from Canada to show we are not perfect is a mayor doing drugs. oh how many countries would wish that the example people use to show their country isn't perfect is a mayor doing drugs? lol.

 

What is the biblical saying "Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye." I just find is really interesting that this so apt to the conversation. Terrible Bioware for not making their Black character black enough. Reminds me of a Canadian acquaintance who went to Unie in the states and was called an Oero cookie by black people because he didn't measure of to African American expectations of how a Black person should be. And these same Americans expect Canadian writers to just Write acceptable Black characters because we deserve it. Yeah i think my friend deserved to be treated like a fraking Canadian not an "Oreo cookie."

 

Sure go after Jacob because he isn't the best character. Let cage the discussion of there are some regional issues in a SEPARATE country may make the character not the best racial representation in the USA so that is bioware being terrible. Yet Canada doesn't have these racial Stereotypes for Black people certainly not in western Canada. Yet Canada must be held to account for American standards? It is the arrogance that is boggling that you should know, you should research how we Americans feel. i doubt the average American can name our prime minister, yet we Canadians we should know how every fraking fictional character could and should be perceived in the states AND we should know enough about US culture, no, a US minority Culture to be responsible for and to create a great African American role model. Doesn't matter that Black people make up only 2% of your country's total population you should do it because we are the U S fraking A.

 

Get over yourself.

 

 

And how exactly does bioware handle a "Brother" that won't come across as wrong?

 

your words, not mine. 

 

You need to relax.

 

I have a question. If Jacob's story was insensitive material, would your opinion on this change? All I did basically was was restate what you were saying.

 

Part of your argument does hinge upon racial profiling. You are basically using it to get your foot in the door saying Canada is a better country than America. At this point I think you just want to argue with people because some of the things you have said regarding the differences between Canada and the U.S. does not fit the dichotomy of the premise of the OP. No one is asking for things to fit perfectly. I see people concerned that some content might offend people and you are basically saying you are not from the country where people could be offended so it doesn't matter.

 

Fine, different countries have different social issues, but I would wager that there is a bigger percentage of Americans playing ME than Canadians. And the GLBT has been a big deal in the states as well, so not sure where you are going with that. Aborigines are not even in the BW universe so I don't know where you are going with that either.

 

I have no idea where you are getting that BW is trying to solve the world's problems.. Its a video game, not a peace committee. That still doesn't change the fact that Devs should be sensitive to racial profiling when their market involves the country where these issues reside.

 

BW targets the US market.. This is seen through the militant type of ambiance the is seen in Mass Effect. BW is targeting young male U.S. natives with their game's. Perhaps not solely, but at least in part and that is the part that you are overlooking.

 

T:;DR: Just because BW is a Canadian country doesn't mean they can ignore what could be insensitive material to their target audience in the U.S.

[Han Shot First]

Palpatine Greatly Approves

[UniformGreyColor]

Palpatine Greatly Approves

 

By far the funniest thing in this thread.

[Angry_Elcor]

 

 

 

 

 

 

After some careful research, I am now questioning the authenticity of at least one person's claim of being "Canadian."

[Gothfather]

your words, not mine. 

 

You need to relax.

 

I have a question. If Jacob's story was insensitive material, would your opinion on this change? All I did basically was was restate what you were saying.

 

Part of your argument does hinge upon racial profiling. You are basically using it to get your foot in the door saying Canada is a better country than America. At this point I think you just want to argue with people because some of the things you have said regarding the differences between Canada and the U.S. does not fit the dichotomy of the premise of the OP. No one is asking for things to fit perfectly. I see people concerned that some content might offend people and you are basically saying you are not from the country where people could be offended so it doesn't matter.

 

Fine, different countries have different social issues, but I would wager that there is a bigger percentage of Americans playing ME than Canadians. And the GLBT has been a big deal in the states as well, so not sure where you are going with that. Aborigines are not even in the BW universe so I don't know where you are going with that either.

 

I have no idea where you are getting that BW is trying to solve the world's problems.. Its a video game, not a peace committee. That still doesn't change the fact that Devs should be sensitive to racial profiling when their market involves the country where these issues reside.

 

BW targets the US market.. This is seen through the militant type of ambiance the is seen in Mass Effect. BW is targeting young male U.S. natives with their game's. Perhaps not solely, but at least in part and that is the part that you are overlooking.

 

T:;DR: Just because BW is a Canadian country doesn't mean they can ignore what could be insensitive material to their target audience in the U.S.

 

Why what makes the US so DAMN special that foreign companies should write their material specifically not to offend it?

 

The only way you can be offended by Jacob in a racial way is to be American, and view him in ISOLATION to make it appear that all his negative flaws are not part of over arching trends in Bioware characters.

 

Daddy issues - Well that was pretty much all of Me2. Either you had daddy issues or your were teh cause of daddy issues. hardly a Jacob is singled out with daddy issues because of racism.

 

He cheated - Again you have to be American and view his romance in isolation so see this in a racial context. Thane is a mass murderer who dies, Ashley is a racist, T'soni is a murderous information broker. We have a terrorist cheerleader, Garrus willing to murder people to cut judicial corners. One character will even sleep with you knowing it will kill you yay Li. It isn't like Jacobs cheating on you is the worst of the negative character flaws a romance partner can have. So cry me a river.

 

Yet somehow Bioware must be sensitive to Americans because why? Americans are so gawd dawn awesome? Can't bring in excuses like demographics and things are different in the country the game comes from because you know foreign countries don't matter they are all inferior to the US of A. Show examples how Race issues in one country are completely different and you get honest shock of "well golly why did you mention Natives mass effect doesn't have them?" Oh i don't know to show that the Racial issues in Canada are not the same as the US, maybe? The fact you couldn't even grasp that example shows just how fraking arrogant you are. 'Why would a person bring in Canadian race relations to a topic about race in a game made by Canadians? i mean the only race relations that matter are American.' The arrogance astounds.

[vbibbi]

Why what makes the US so DAMN special that foreign companies should write their material specifically not to offend it?
 
The only way you can be offended by Jacob in a racial way is to be American, and view him in ISOLATION to make it appear that all his negative flaws are not part of over arching trends in Bioware characters.
 
Daddy issues - Well that was pretty much all of Me2. Either you had daddy issues or your were teh cause of daddy issues. hardly a Jacob is singled out with daddy issues because of racism.
 
He cheated - Again you have to be American and view his romance in isolation so see this in a racial context. Thane is a mass murderer who dies, Ashley is a racist, T'soni is a murderous information broker. We have a terrorist cheerleader, Garrus willing to murder people to cut judicial corners. One character will even sleep with you knowing it will kill you yay Li. It isn't like Jacobs cheating on you is the worst of the negative character flaws a romance partner can have. So cry me a river.
 
Yet somehow Bioware must be sensitive to Americans because why? Americans are so gawd dawn awesome? Can't bring in excuses like demographics and things are different in the country the game comes from because you know foreign countries don't matter they are all inferior to the US of A. Show examples how Race issues in one country are completely different and you get honest shock of "well golly why did you mention Natives mass effect doesn't have them?" Oh i don't know to show that the Racial issues in Canada are not the same as the US, maybe? The fact you couldn't even grasp that example shows just how fraking arrogant you are. 'Why would a person bring in Canadian race relations to a topic about race in a game made by Canadians? i mean the only race relations that matter are American.' The arrogance astounds.

Why do most of your posts devolve into rage filled tirades on how Canada is so much better than the evil United States? You are twisting everything into a contest between Canada and the U.S. which is completely not the point of this topic

[UniformGreyColor]

Why what makes the US so DAMN special that foreign companies should write their material specifically not to offend it?

 

Because Americans are the ones buying the games.

[Hazegurl]

In the US, "black culture" is very much a thing. "Black culture" just means "African-American culture".

But even that can be a variety of different things. Like Southern Black Culture isn't the same as Black culture in the northeast.  Even Louisiana Black culture isn't the same as the rest of black culture in the South.

 

As for Jacob, I didn't hate him. I never romanced him and found him to be very bland overall.  However, He did have the daddy issues, baby momma, cheater thing going on for him which is too many stereotypical "coincidences." However, I don't think for a moment that Jacob should automatically be portrayed as a good person just because of his race, that's just stupid and more of a disservice than a positive thing.  But it is strange that out of all the LI  companions, he's the one that gives the player who romances him a bad experience by his own actions. 

 

@Gothfather,  Why do the writers suddenly have to have IRL contact with black people and black culture just to understand how to write a black person? Did they need to have contact with Asari, Krogran, Drell, Hanar, Quarians, and every other species just to write them decently? No.  You just write the character and make them a good and interesting character. Who cares what race they are.

[Vespervin]

You humans...

[Draining Dragon]

You humans...

...are all racist!

[ZipZap2000]

Oh BSN...

Its a Tuchankan tea party in here today.

[Gothfather]

Why do most of your posts devolve into rage filled tirades on how Canada is so much better than the evil United States? You are twisting everything into a contest between Canada and the U.S. which is completely not the point of this topic

 

it isn't most of my post as you well know. This is a thread about criticising a Canadian company on a racial issue which i don't think the States has a leg to stand on. Certainly can't speak from the moral high ground on this issue at all.

 

And when you ask Americans what makes them so special that people should cater to their fraking perceptive you respond thusly...

 

Because Americans are the ones buying the games.

 

As if the only people Mass effect was sold to were Americans that the game isn't sold in Canada, Europe, Latin America or Asia. Only America matters and Americans wonder why other nationalities get miffed at them?

[Gothfather]

/snip

 

@Gothfather,  Why do the writers suddenly have to have IRL contact with black people and black culture just to understand how to write a black person? Did they need to have contact with Asari, Krogran, Drell, Hanar, Quarians, and every other species just to write them decently? No.  You just write the character and make them a good and interesting character. Who cares what race they are.

 

Really you don't see the difference? A fictional race is fictional so nothing about it is real so you can just make it up. While things that are real requires you to have knowledge of them because making stuff up about a real thing is known as bullshit.

 

Hmmm why would a writer need knowledge about real things but not require knowledge about imaginary things? hmmm

 

Are you serious?

[UniformGreyColor]

As if the only people Mass effect was sold to were Americans that the game isn't sold in Canada, Europe, Latin America or Asia. Only America matters and Americans wonder why other nationalities get miffed at them?

 

So far, you have been the only one to say that America thinks its more important than any other country. To give perspective on this, I wouldn't want BW to portray any demographic poorly knowingly or otherwise that they are marketing.

[Vortex13]

Ethnicities, Religions, Sexual Orientations, Gender, Political Affiliations, Cultural Backgrounds, Parental Upbringing, Etc. 

 

 

All of these are BORING, just like how humans are BORING.

 

 

This is a science fiction game, dealing with alien species, and interstellar (intergalactic as far as the new game is concerned) travel, can we actually look into those elements? Can we devote major screen time to interacting with that alien species over there that evolved on the surface of a nuetron star and communicates in high energy gamma bursts? Can we instigate that planetoid with the highly eccentric orbit around that black hole? 

[vbibbi]

it isn't most of my post as you well know. This is a thread about criticising a Canadian company on a racial issue which i don't think the States has a leg to stand on. Certainly can't speak from the moral high ground on this issue at all.
 
And when you ask Americans what makes them so special that people should cater to their fraking perceptive you respond thusly...
 
 
As if the only people Mass effect was sold to were Americans that the game isn't sold in Canada, Europe, Latin America or Asia. Only America matters and Americans wonder why other nationalities get miffed at them?

I'm not going to claim that I don't criticize Bioware on these boards, but none of my criticisms have anything to do with them being a Canadian company. My criticisms are about the content in their game. It's illogical and incorrect to say any criticisms against content in a Bioware game is somehow an attack on Canada or canadian social issues. And if people from non-Canadian countries can't voice how they perceive game content through the lens of their nationality, Bioware should only listen to fan feedback from Canadian customers? Considering, as you point out, they sell games to more than just Canada (and the U.S.) that would be ignoring significant feedback.

[ZipZap2000]

humans are BORING.

You're generalising! Throwing us all into the same boat as white people!

[Gothfather]

I'm not going to claim that I don't criticize Bioware on these boards, but none of my criticisms have anything to do with them being a Canadian company. My criticisms are about the content in their game. It's illogical and incorrect to say any criticisms against content in a Bioware game is somehow an attack on Canada or canadian social issues. And if people from non-Canadian countries can't voice how they perceive game content through the lens of their nationality, Bioware should only listen to fan feedback from Canadian customers? Considering, as you point out, they sell games to more than just Canada (and the U.S.) that would be ignoring significant feedback.

 

And I didn't take it as such. i simply pointed at FACTUAL demographical difference between the two nations to explain why Canadian writers perhaps are not that great at portraying African Americans and I was met with that is no excuse.

 

It is the arrogance of Americans that think if you are from a country that is different than ours than any explanation as to why a country may not approach an issue the same way is irrelevant. It is the dismissiveness of anything not American and don't try and pretend this doesn't happen, that pisses me off. The false equivalences that Rob ford was a mayor in Canada and a drug addict so that proves Canada isn't perfect when Americans get challenged on race issues, pisses me off. When you are dismissive of people they tend to point out your flaws.