171 réponses à ce sujet

[Bayonet Hipshot]

This will ruffle some feathers but I have to ask – Am I the only one around here who hates the Qun?

 

As for the Qun as a philosophy, I find it to be thoroughly disgusting. To me, the Qun is an unhealthy blend of the worst parts of radical Islam, Communism and Confucianism. It outright bans thinking, restricts it only for specific peoples and it does not encourage the pursuit of knowledge and understanding but instead shoves conformity down people's throats under the guise of "roles and purpose". Their social structure of “roles” also does not leave any room for someone to want to improve and better themselves. I mean, why bother trying to be better or trying to learn something else if you will be stuck with this one role for all your life. Where’s the incentive for self-improvement? Where's the incentive to earn wealth and property ? Furthermore, If you stray from the “correct path”, you will be sent to “re-education” centers. I live in a country where they actually had this sort of “re-education” programs for certain people like the ex-religious, homosexuals, etc.

 

At least the Chantry under Leliana as a Divine Victoria can become somewhat enlightened and open but the Qun are a bunch of non-thinking fools who take it on themselves to impose themselves into other people's lives when they did not ask for it. All because some long dead philosopher said so and recorded it in one book which the Qun holds up as the ultimate source of everything (much like how Muslim fundamentalists view the Quran). There is also the fact that the Qun goes and hunt people who have left their faith and try to kill them, just like how fundamentalist Muslim view apostasy as a form of death sentence. Plus they use chemical warfare in really evil ways to turn people into vegetables yet they somehow see themselves as better than Tevinter and its slavery.

 

This even gets worse as the game progresses and you enter the Trespasser DLC. What business do the Qun have to enter a sovereign region, plant a bunch of explosives around (just like radical religious terrorists do) and then demand people who are living there to "End their magic, etc" I wish my Inquisitor could have asked Viddasala what would it be like if the Inquisition decides to enter Seheron or Par Vollen, plant a bunch of explosives around and then demand the people who are living there to "End their adherence to the Qun, etc"

 

Despite all this, there are people that somehow like the Qun. To me, it’s unthinkable. Why would you like such an oppressive cultural system?

 

[Geth Supremacy]

I wouldn't worry too much.  You might like what they do with it in the next game. 

[Dabrikishaw]

Don't worry, you're not the only person on this forum with a distaste for the Qun. In fact, I'd say genuine Qun fans are in the minority.

[Scofield]

Sounds just like most religions

[Krypplingz]

Solas agrees with you. Take solace in that. 

 

I like the Qun as long as it stays inside the game. I can see the comfort in the idea of having somebody assigning you a role where you can be of some use, especially if you're feeling lost on what purpose you have in real life. And being fixed might sound amazing to people who are feeling pretty broken. 
But I might object when the idea is put into practice. So while I like/am neutral about the Qun in the game, I would probably be opposed to it in real life. Like I'm very opposed to being stabbed in the gut in real life, but don't mind it in video games. 

[Heimdall]

I can't stand it either

[KaiserShep]

Hmmm, the idea of planting a bunch of explosives around Par Vollen and then cutting the head off the snake and getting the denizens to abandon the Qun does seem rather appealing. In any case, I kind of love the Qun, insofar that I think that it makes for a very entertaining basis for an enemy faction.

[Lazarillo]

For one thing, I do think it's somewhat notable that the Qun hasn't really been presented as a religion, at least up to this point. It gets called that a lot, but in practice, it doesn't really act that way. It's more like a form of government. I think a lot of the religious connotations may be sort of chalked up to being "lost in translation". Their "priests" are more like bureaucrats, and when they call Koslun a "prophet", it would be like communists calling Marx the same. Of course, it's possible we'll eventually see a more religious side in the future, but at present, comparing them to religious organizations (or religious terrorists) for that matter is sort of getting them wrong. They're an expansionist empire, and their actions aren't about "subverting" legitimate governments so much as outright destroying them and conquering their people.

As far as whether I like or hate them, I don't think they're inherently evil or anything per se. However, I do think they are far more corrupt and short-sighted than they claim (or even realize). They're like any other form of government: idealistic in philosophy, but with glaring flaws in execution. That said, their expansionism and their determination to force themselves on the entire innocent populations of Thedas regardless of agreement or disagreement with them makes them a threat, and means the heroes of my games will continue to fight against them.

[Arvaarad]

Are we talking the Qun as written (hereafter, "AW") or the Qun as practiced ("AP")?

 

The AW seems totally benign. Of course, that could always change with future codices. Maybe there's some part of AW that actually encourages war/conformity/etc, and we just haven't seen it yet. But based on the excerpts we've seen so far, it's pretty harmless, especially when compared to the other religious texts/myths in Thedas. The Chant of Light is steeped in war, and elven tales are nearly as violent as the evanuris on which they're based.

 

The AW talks about the natural order of things, how the works of civilization are shaped by these forces. Looking at things like swarms of locusts and the tide. There is no chaos in the world, only complexity.

 

Annnnnd ironically someone looked at those stories, and decided they wanted to be the locusts, or the tide. After all, the primal forces always gain "victory" in the AW. Of course, that's completely missing the point of the parables. The AP is more like the statue. Stubbornly, it struggles against the rest of the world, trying to stamp out the "chaos" which the AW calls an illusion. Imposing mastery instead of focusing on its own self-mastery.

 

So, long story short, a decent philosophy got buried in layers of interpretation until it turned into a militaristic, authoritarian shadow of the original text. Surely nothing like that happens in the real...

 

...well, surely not more than once or twice...

 

...oh, "every time someone has a nice idea"? Really?

 

Huh.

 

That's unfortunate.

[Gervaise]

The way I see it is that in theory it sounds good and Koslun seems to have been a philosopher as much as anything.   He looked at the societies around him and they were all inherently unfair with some people having great wealth while others starved and there was a feeling of despair because they seemed trapped in that existence.   So he wanted to come up with an alternative; a society without hopelessness or despair.   He also recognised that you cannot have a society without laws and total freedom leads to chaos and again injustice because the strong just keep on thumping the weak because no one is stopping them.  People are happy and free but at the expense of others.  After a great deal of travelling, observing and thinking about the problem, he came up with his book.  

 

It is pretty clear that when his teaching was put into practice, something went a bit wrong.   Either that or we have never been told the bits where he encourages people who think as he does to force the others into accepting it for their own good whether they want to or not.     If you value freedom of expression over stability and order then surely you are going to be driven to despair being forced to live in the Qun?   Everyone has their place in the society as an organic whole but it doesn't seem to recognise the individual at all.   You are not encouraged to think for yourself but just accept what others tell you.   There are no real families, just the artificial ones controlled by the Tamassrans; children don't know their parents; parents never know the children that they conceived.  Loyalty is to the Qun and nothing else. 

 

They also think they are superior to others because they rarely waste anybody.   They don't go around killing people who don't agree with them if they can avoid it; they re-educate them and if you are a particularly hopeless case, then they force feed you qamek that turns you into a mindless drone.   They automatically do this to mages who have not been brought up from birth under the Qun. 

 

So I agree with you OP; I hate the Qun and would never support it; even if given the option.    I have to agree with Solas on this one when he is comparing Tevinter with the Qun.   In Tevinter at least a slave can dream of freedom; with the Qun you are not permitted even to think/dream." 

[Aren]

They also think they are superior to others because they rarely waste anybody. They don't go around killing people who don't agree with them if they can avoid it

This is one of the few aspect on whom i agree with the Qun.
Sten show great approval in banter if the warden don't kill Loghain.

[Navasha]

Oh god no.. You are hardly the only one.   I despise the Qun with just about every fiber of my being.   I can't think of a more horrid society to be honest.    They are little more than a colony of social insects that care nothing for individualism.   All just controlled beings slave to the will of their triumvirate masters.    They however do make a GREAT enemy, so I like them in the game.    A pure depiction of lawful evil. 

[BSpud]

I enjoy it as a fictional concept. I would not like to live under it in real life.

[VorexRyder]

I dislike the Qunari, but the first Canto of the Qun is the complete opposite:

 

Qun:There is no chaos, only complexity(Scientific Method!).

Qunari: AHHHH!!! MAGIC IS INCOMPREHENSIBLE! AHHHH!!!

[Big I]

As for the Qun as a philosophy, I find it to be thoroughly disgusting. To me, the Qun is an unhealthy blend of the worst parts of radical Islam, Communism and Confucianism.

 

It's actually based on Plato's Republic, according to the devs. Eugenic breeding, a caste system, non-discrimination (in Republic it's no bias against woman, pretty revolutionary for ancient Greece), it's all there. Beyond that, the relationship between the Qun and Tevinter/the rest of the continent seems to mirror the dynamic between the muslim nations in Turkey (what would go on to become the Ottoman empire) and the Byzantine Empire/western Europe.

 

 

Personally, I don't see the Qun as being any worse than any other nation in Thedas. Tevinter practices slavery, and Orlais serfdom (you can run into a woman in the market in Denerim in DA:O who had to leave Orlais because her brother stopped a chevalier from raping her).  Every major human city has an elven alienage (i.e. a ghetto), and pogroms against elves aren't uncommon (it happens in both DA:O and the novel The Masked Empire). According to Aveline in small settlements like Lothering elves don't even have their own homes (they sleep in barns and stables). Orzammar's whole society is based on the oppression of the casteless, and let's not forget the oppression of mages. The Qun may suck, but so does everyone else.

[Secret Rare]

I dislike the Qunari, but the first Canto of the Qun is the complete opposite:

Qun:There is no chaos, only complexity(Scientific Method!).

Which isn't the scientific method to begin with?
Since "chaos" does indeed exsist and it is a concern of the pobability theory and the probabilistic theory of causality...
The Qun is what you can call science in the middle age.

[Kakistos_]

I'm with Fen'Harel on this one. Turn them all to stone. Also, the Viddasala foreshadowed further consequences of the Breach and then the Qunari launched unexpected attacks against Tevinter. I wonder if the Qunari are experiencing karma back home?

[Just My Moniker]

 

 

 Am I the only one around here who hates the Qun?

 

[The Baconer]

Nobody hates the Qunari like the Baconer!

 

Personally, I don't see the Qun as being any worse than any other nation in Thedas. Tevinter practices slavery (...)

 

The Qunari also practice slavery. Ironically, they are the only other nation to openly do so beyond their most bitter enemy, the Imperium. 

[Totally Not a Poodle]

I'm a Qun fan and supporter. Honestly, I would not be opposed to living under the Qun in real life.

[9TailsFox]

They have great social benefits, guaranteed job an living place, free health care, prostitution is legal and just normal job. Perfect criminal re-education. Better life conditions for a price of "less" freedom. And If you don't even care about politics life is great.

And how is it different from serving king, if you normal people qun or king you have no right you just peasant.

[Heimdall]

I'm a Qun fan and supporter. Honestly, I would not be opposed to living under the Qun in real life.

How are your feelings on qamek?

[Totally Not a Poodle]

How are your feelings on qamek?

 

Not a fan but then, it wouldn't be used on me.

[Bayonet Hipshot]

They have great social benefits, guaranteed job an living place, free health care, prostitution is legal and just normal job. Perfect criminal re-education. Better life conditions for a price of "less" freedom. And If you don't even care about politics life is great. And how is it different from serving king, if you normal people qun or king you have no right you just peasant.

 

Try living under the "real socialism" that the Russians and Eastern Europeans lived in (they got all these basic necessities promised to them as well such as a job, a roof over their head, etc) and you will see why people might dislike the Qun.

 

Sure, you get all this guaranteed stuff but at what cost ? It is not in the nature of living beings to simply conform and obey. That is fact - People do not just bend over and conform. They might do so for a short time if you give them some benefits but it never lasts. History is rife with countless examples. Not unless if you have secret police whisking people away for re-education, using vile chemicals to render undesirables into vegetables, etc.

 

The Qun way of life can only work if they have access to unlimited resources / perpetual energy. This is because you have system of conformity yet living things are not conformists by nature. They always will want something better or something more. Which means you will need an infinite amount of resources to keep people happy under a totalitarian conformist society. However we know that unlimited infinite resources are not a thing and as such the Qun must resort to secret police, indoctrination centers, rigid control, and tearing the family unit apart.

 

I would not be surprised that for every one person living happily under the Qun, they are 5 others who are Tal-Vashoths because they are sick of the conformity, the lack of social mobility, the lack of incentives to attempt self improvement, etc.

[Dai Grepher]

The Qun philosophy is mostly centered around structural order. It isn't a religion, because it does not deal with matters of the soul or existence after death. Its only real exploration with the spiritual nature of people seems to be through poetic reference. Naming of weapons, defining one's purpose in life, various analogies and parables.

 

In essence, the Qun is a way of life. It is a way of keeping an orderly function, but it has no regard for individual wants. All that matters is the good of the whole and the basic needs of each.

 

I imagine Koslun starting the Qun out as something positive. Perhaps it was just his own personal journal. Something he could use to put his thoughts to paper. He seemed to be a wandering adventurer, observing many sights and phenomena. Having ideas. Perhaps he thought his book was a good philosophy to live by, and perhaps the Qunari people were savage during his days. So he introduced them to the Qun in order to restrain their savage nature. But as is the drawback with all philosophers and kings, they are unable to craft an ethology that will survive the test of time. Over the ages, the successors of the Qun took power and governed as was right in their own eyes. And so Koslun's philosophy was likely changed or reinterpreted in many ways.

 

As a result, the Qun does have some good points, but also bad ones. It generally has a recognition and appreciation for truth, though this goes to the wayside if the truth is inconvenient for "the Body", the society. It also has a respect for purpose and work. People doing things that benefit themselves and society. The down side is that this has become forced and dismissive of personal wants. The Qun has a clear perception of the two genders and recognizes each one's qualities. However, some of the rules that apply to each gender are too strict, and waste talent. The Qun values the advancement of society and the healthy growth of the population, but at the cost of courtly love and true romance. Instead replaced with eugenics.

 

As for the reason why so many in Thedas seem to convert to it willingly, I believe it is because they have misconceptions about it, as well as the fact that they perceive it as a better life than what they currently have. The Qunari will provide their basic needs. Food, safety, shelter, employment. More than that they receive a basic education and a purpose, or a place where they can feel they belong. A person's talents are recognized and utilized. To those people, this is better than having freedom to succeed or fail on their own merits. For many elves, this is a step up.

 

However, it is clear that many under the Qun do not like the negatives of that life. Some rebel silently by doing their job a little less well, like the baker that I think Solas mentioned. Others revolt entirely and become Tal-Vashoth.

 

The negatives are clear. You cannot leave. You cannot think differently or you will be brainwashed. If that doesn't work, you will be effectively lobotomized. Everyone will be forced to submit to this, sooner or later. Debate over philosophy is only for the tamassrans, and whatever they conclude is how it will be. You are bred as livestock.

 

The Qun itself, or at least what I know of it, seems to be a decent read. It does feature life lessons that are beneficial. It is the application of the Qun that is most problematic. I am curious to know if Koslun ever wrote anything along the lines of "The Qun will dominate the world", or if that is just an opinion injected later by his successors.