They have great social benefits, guaranteed job an living place, free health care, prostitution is legal and just normal job. Perfect criminal re-education. Better life conditions for a price of "less" freedom. And If you don't even care about politics life is great.
And how is it different from serving king, if you normal people qun or king you have no right you just peasant.
I'm not so sure the person destined to shovel horse **** is quite so pleased with the greatness of this system.
Their social structure of “roles” also does not leave any room for someone to want to improve and better themselves. I mean, why bother trying to be better or trying to learn something else if you will be stuck with this one role for all your life. Where’s the incentive for self-improvement?
Although I agree with most of your points, bear in mind that "role" among the Qunari is not exactly a fixed post. They may believe that your role is in the military, for example, but once you're inside your ability may lead you to cover different posts, from the lowest to the highest, in a single career. We have the example of DA:O Sten, who, in the Bioware canon, has gone from Sten to Arishok.
I'm not so sure the person destined to shovel horse **** is quite so pleased with the greatness of this system.
Probably as much as anyone doing that under any system.
*snip*
Is it possible that the original vision of the Qun as dictated by Koslun was hijacked by the Tamassrans ? I mean Iron Bull mentions that only the Tamassrans understand the Qun properly and it seems overly complicated for a philosophy that is based on social order and purpose.
It would not be a stretch to imagine that a group of Tamassrans in the past thought that they need to seize control and monopoly of Koslun's philosophy for the "good of the society" or because they were afraid of losing their status because people were becoming more educated (which would diminish the need for them to exist since they are the educators).
Although I agree with most of your points, bear in mind that "role" among the Qunari is not exactly a fixed post. They may believe that your role is in the military, for example, but once you're inside your ability may lead you to cover different posts, from the lowest to the highest, in a single career. We have the example of DA:O Sten, who, in the Bioware canon, has gone from Sten to Arishok.
That's because the Qun is all about the No True Scotsman fallacy. There's a kind of beautiful, self-fulfilling insane troll logic to it all. Sten's role in life was always and forever to be a Sten... until a job vacancy opened up, and suddenly it became clear his true role was to be the Arishok. And the distinction between, say, the military and the priesthood is fundamental and absolute, a true natural part of the world... except that members of each class can find themselves doing the same identical thing sometimes (e.g. fight).
It's actually based on Plato's Republic, according to the devs. Eugenic breeding, a caste system, non-discrimination (in Republic it's no bias against woman, pretty revolutionary for ancient Greece), it's all there.
The Qun might not be sexist in the sense that it values men and women equally, as well as the roles they fulfill (a baker is just as important as a soldier etc.), but the fact that they dictate "You are a man, you will do these things. You are a woman, you will do these." is definitely what I'd call discriminatory.
That's one of the main reasons I hate it, but definitely not the only one.
It's actually based on Plato's Republic, according to the devs.
Sorry for being picky, but Republic wasn't a instruction on how to create a state, but allegory of human being and it's desired (or "right") structure.
But yea, it is pretty Platonic.
Sorry for being picky, but Republic wasn't a instruction on how to create a state, but allegory of human being and it's desired (or "right") structure.
But yea, it is pretty Platonic.
It's the devs who (according to their own statments) based qunari culture on the Republic.
The Qun might not be sexist in the sense that it values men and women equally, as well as the roles they fulfill (a baker is just as important as a soldier etc.), but the fact that they dictate "You are a man, you will do these things. You are a woman, you will do these." is definitely what I'd call discriminatory.
That's one of the main reasons I hate it, but definitely not the only one.
I was more thinking about their racial equality, valuing elves, humans and ethnic qunari equally. Thedas itself seems largely non-sexist, likely because the founding figure of the largest religion was a woman.
Although I agree with most of your points, bear in mind that "role" among the Qunari is not exactly a fixed post. They may believe that your role is in the military, for example, but once you're inside your ability may lead you to cover different posts, from the lowest to the highest, in a single career. We have the example of DA:O Sten, who, in the Bioware canon, has gone from Sten to Arishok.
^Only because he is an unkillable charcter in DAO,it is weird that Bioware forced those players who never killed teh Arishok for Isabela sake to accept their canon
Nobody hates the Qunari like the Baconer!
The Qunari also practice slavery. Ironically, they are the only other nation to openly do so beyond their most bitter enemy, the Imperium.
I'm not sure it's the same. Qamek seems more like mutilation than slavery, and there's no evidence that individuals can buy other people. I've always thought of qamek as being identical to Tranquility, and their caste system seems more similar to Orzammar than anywhere else.
^Only because he is an unkillable charcter in DAO,it is weird that Bioware forced those players who never killed teh Arishok for Isabela sake to accept their canon
Well, given that the Arishok spent years seeking the book without results, then almost caused a war with Southern Thedas, and only got what he was looking for thanks to a bas, I would have fired/demoted him too, Qunari or not.
That's because the Qun is all about the No True Scotsman fallacy. There's a kind of beautiful, self-fulfilling insane troll logic to it all. Sten's role in life was always and forever to be a Sten... until a job vacancy opened up, and suddenly it became clear his true role was to be the Arishok. And the distinction between, say, the military and the priesthood is fundamental and absolute, a true natural part of the world... except that members of each class can find themselves doing the same identical thing sometimes (e.g. fight).
There's no evidence that individuals are groomed for specific positions, only general sectors in society. World of Thedas Vol. 2 showed that Sten started out as a city gate guard before advancing in rank. People can even be demoted, like the DA2 Arishok is if you let him live.
As for Ben-Hasserath and Antaam distinctions, it makes sort of makes sense for me the priesthood are also the spies. The priests are concerned with public order and act as cops and spies, while the antaam are soldiers.
I'm not sure it's the same. Qamek seems more like mutilation than slavery, and there's no evidence that individuals can buy other people. I've always thought of qamek as being identical to Tranquility, and their caste system seems more similar to Orzammar than anywhere else.
It's mutilation before a lifetime of labor. Saarebas are also enslaved, and it's not really dependent on whether or not people can purchase them.
Tranquility isn't very similar to Qamek poisoning at all beyond the superficial. The Tranquil remain sentient, they still retain will. Viddath-bas can't even relieve themselves without assistance.
There's no evidence that individuals are groomed for specific positions, only general sectors in society. World of Thedas Vol. 2 showed that Sten started out as a city gate guard before advancing in rank. People can even be demoted, like the DA2 Arishok is if you let him live.
As for Ben-Hasserath and Antaam distinctions, it makes sort of makes sense for me the priesthood are also the spies. The priests are concerned with public order and act as cops and spies, while the antaam are soldiers.
Their "priests" are more like bureaucrats
Medieval clerics often were scholars and bureaucrats: hell: look at Chancellor Roderick, who's from the get-go an obvious bureaucrat wearing religious cloth.
***
They're an expansionist empire, and their actions aren't about "subverting" legitimate governments so much as outright destroying them and conquering their people
And one thing that people often ignore or deny is that the Qun has more than a few similarities with Western Civilization:
Medieval clerics often were scholars and bureaucrats: hell: look at Chancellor Roderick, who's from the get-go an obvious bureaucrat wearing religious cloth.
***
And one thing that people often ignore or deny is that the Qun has more than a few similarities with Western Civilization:
- In both case you get technologically advanced societies whose leaders convinced themselves that their technological superiority "demonstrates" their inherent moral superiority and justifies their intent to subjugate what they perceive as backward/inferior cultures.
- In both cases you get strict social hierarchies depicted as intrinsically fair (Westerners pretend that their societies adhere to meritocratic principles, Qunari pretend that the Tamassran know what they're doing with their eugenistic programs)
- In both cases you get downtrodden from the outside being attracted to the technologically advanced civilization that promises security and material comforts denied to them in their homelands, and disenchanted dissenters from the inside who become disillusioned with the society of their birth to the point of violently turning against it.
You don't have Western civilizations using chemicals to turn undesirables into vegetable or sowing the mouth and cutting the tongue of those they deem dangerous.
Furthermore, Western colonial efforts were initially driven by private enterprises at first and it was only taken over later by the governments in the West.
There is also the fact that we have not seen any evidence of technological transfer and subsequent development of a region taken over by the Qunari, unlike the technological transfer which did take place under West imperialism. I am in fact working on a dissertation about Early Modern Singapore history and technological transfer from the UK was vital to the success of that place in its infancy. Kont-aar, a Qunari settlement which is in Rivain simply appear to be a well fortified settlement, not a technologically adept one.
More importantly, Western culture does not place any emphasis on strict lifelong roles on an individual. Someone is not born as a baker or a priest in the West. Lastly, the Western colonists did not strip away the family unit of an indigenous population and strip them of their ability to give themselves their own names for the purposes of cultural indoctrination.
This will ruffle some feathers but I have to ask – Am I the only one around here who hates the Qun?
As for the Qun as a philosophy, I find it to be thoroughly disgusting. To me, the Qun is an unhealthy blend of the worst parts of radical Islam, Communism and Confucianism. It outright bans thinking, restricts it only for specific peoples and it does not encourage the pursuit of knowledge and understanding but instead shoves conformity down people's throats under the guise of "roles and purpose". Their social structure of “roles” also does not leave any room for someone to want to improve and better themselves. I mean, why bother trying to be better or trying to learn something else if you will be stuck with this one role for all your life. Where’s the incentive for self-improvement? Where's the incentive to earn wealth and property ? Furthermore, If you stray from the “correct path”, you will be sent to “re-education” centers. I live in a country where they actually had this sort of “re-education” programs for certain people like the ex-religious, homosexuals, etc.
At least the Chantry under Leliana as a Divine Victoria can become somewhat enlightened and open but the Qun are a bunch of non-thinking fools who take it on themselves to impose themselves into other people's lives when they did not ask for it. All because some long dead philosopher said so and recorded it in one book which the Qun holds up as the ultimate source of everything (much like how Muslim fundamentalists view the Quran). There is also the fact that the Qun goes and hunt people who have left their faith and try to kill them, just like how fundamentalist Muslim view apostasy as a form of death sentence. Plus they use chemical warfare in really evil ways to turn people into vegetables yet they somehow see themselves as better than Tevinter and its slavery.
This even gets worse as the game progresses and you enter the Trespasser DLC. What business do the Qun have to enter a sovereign region, plant a bunch of explosives around (just like radical religious terrorists do) and then demand people who are living there to "End their magic, etc" I wish my Inquisitor could have asked Viddasala what would it be like if the Inquisition decides to enter Seheron or Par Vollen, plant a bunch of explosives around and then demand the people who are living there to "End their adherence to the Qun, etc"
Despite all this, there are people that somehow like the Qun. To me, it’s unthinkable. Why would you like such an oppressive cultural system?
Yeah... Qun's lack of respect to culture, education, tradition and individualism reminds of commies. I hate commies. Amen.
As for the Qun as a philosophy, I find it to be thoroughly disgusting. To me, the Qun is an unhealthy blend of the worst parts of radical Islam, Communism and Confucianism. It outright bans thinking, restricts it only for specific peoples and it does not encourage the pursuit of knowledge and understanding but instead shoves conformity down people's throats under the guise of "roles and purpose". Their social structure of “roles” also does not leave any room for someone to want to improve and better themselves. I mean, why bother trying to be better or trying to learn something else if you will be stuck with this one role for all your life. Where’s the incentive for self-improvement? Where's the incentive to earn wealth and property ? Furthermore, If you stray from the “correct path”, you will be sent to “re-education” centers. I live in a country where they actually had this sort of “re-education” programs for certain people like the ex-religious, homosexuals, etc.
I totally agree with you. I, too, think the Qun seems to combine the worst features of Communism and radical Islam in terms of the way it forces conformity on its citizens and conquered peoples. I especially grew to hate them in DA2. My Hawke tried to walk a fine line to prevent conflict and promote tolerance only to have the Arishok trash Kirkwall at the end of Act 2. Even in Origins, if you listened to Sten, you came away worried that once the Blight was over, the Qun was going to become a problem.
Despite this, I still recruit Iron Bull because a temporary alliance with the Qunari makes sense in the immediate aftermath of the breach.
I'm not so sure the person destined to shovel horse **** is quite so pleased with the greatness of this system.
Try living under the "real socialism" that the Russians and Eastern Europeans lived in (they got all these basic necessities promised to them as well such as a job, a roof over their head, etc) and you will see why people might dislike the Qun.
Sure, you get all this guaranteed stuff but at what cost ? It is not in the nature of living beings to simply conform and obey. That is fact - People do not just bend over and conform. They might do so for a short time if you give them some benefits but it never lasts. History is rife with countless examples. Not unless if you have secret police whisking people away for re-education, using vile chemicals to render undesirables into vegetables, etc.
The Qun way of life can only work if they have access to unlimited resources / perpetual energy. This is because you have system of conformity yet living things are not conformists by nature. They always will want something better or something more. Which means you will need an infinite amount of resources to keep people happy under a totalitarian conformist society. However we know that unlimited infinite resources are not a thing and as such the Qun must resort to secret police, indoctrination centers, rigid control, and tearing the family unit apart.
I would not be surprised that for every one person living happily under the Qun, they are 5 others who are Tal-Vashoths because they are sick of the conformity, the lack of social mobility, the lack of incentives to attempt self improvement, etc.
You explaining what "real socialism" is for someone who live in country witch in the past was occupied by Russians. 
Qun is not СССР. Being under Qun is much better than being normal peasant in any Thedas country. Rights, what right? Only nobles have right.
They have great social benefits, guaranteed job an living place, free health care, prostitution is legal and just normal job. Perfect criminal re-education. Better life conditions for a price of "less" freedom. And If you don't even care about politics life is great.
And how is it different from serving king, if you normal people qun or king you have no right you just peasant.
But what happens to that system when the rest of the world evolves beyond kingdoms? Like, something like the Qun would die a swift and painful death in a more modern world, its final remnants relegated to fringe screwballs that live in a small compound in the wilderness. When your answer to poverty and an imbalance of power is mind-bending chemicals, I'd say that there's a big problem.
Don't forget the forced prostitution (of seemingly only women). The way Iron Bull describes it seems so casual and laid back, it's not a big deal you just go to a Tamassran when you want sex (but sex with someone you love or choose to have sex with is banned for some reason) until you realize that people don't choose their roles, they're forced into them and any nonconformity gets them brainwashed (through beatings, humiliation, sleep deprivation, etc...if we go by that codex entry). Tamassrans don't get to choose, they'd basically be sex slaves. I don't think that was intentional on BioWare's part, I feel like they wanted Iron Bull and the Qun to come across as more laid back and casual about things including sex and didn't consider the implications.
Don't forget the forced prostitution (of seemingly only women). The way Iron Bull describes it seems so casual and laid back, it's not a big deal you just go to a Tamassran when you want sex (but sex with someone you love or choose to have sex with is banned for some reason) until you realize that people don't choose their roles, they're forced into them and any nonconformity gets them brainwashed (through beatings, humiliation, sleep deprivation, etc...if we go by that codex entry). Tamassrans don't get to choose, they'd basically be sex slaves. I don't think that was intentional on BioWare's part, I feel like they wanted Iron Bull and the Qun to come across as more laid back and casual about things including sex and didn't consider the implications.
I miss the old lore where the Qun only had sex for reproduction, before they retconned it and added sex slave as a role under the Qun.
Don't forget the forced prostitution (of seemingly only women). The way Iron Bull describes it seems so casual and laid back, it's not a big deal you just go to a Tamassran when you want sex (but sex with someone you love or choose to have sex with is banned for some reason) until you realize that people don't choose their roles, they're forced into them and any nonconformity gets them brainwashed (through beatings, humiliation, sleep deprivation, etc...if we go by that codex entry). Tamassrans don't get to choose, they'd basically be sex slaves. I don't think that was intentional on BioWare's part, I feel like they wanted Iron Bull and the Qun to come across as more laid back and casual about things including sex and didn't consider the implications.
It reminds me of Solas' dialogue about a Qunari baker if you ask him about memories he's seen. You know a country is jacked the hell up when deviating from the recipe of bread is somehow rebellious.
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