The Qun remains me of Germans living under Nazi rule.. Get with the program or be "re educated" or they may kill you-this is according to Iron Bull. They hunt and kill the Vashoth again according to Bull. He assured my female Qunari Vashoth that he was not about to kill her.
In that light I wonder how many Qunari is happy living under the Qun?
It's not like people don't end up doing that under other systems. At least under the Qun you're not doing that because you're a pathetic loser who couldn't get a better job. (Well, except that you kind of are, since they wouldn't have put you in that job if they though you were capable of more important work.)
It's not clear that this is true. It sounds - from what we hear - that the Qun do have a view on hierarchy. They just think the hierarchy defines you as a person, and that you are defective if you honestly aspire to rise above it. In some ways, it's worse.
Don't forget the forced prostitution (of seemingly only women). The way Iron Bull describes it seems so casual and laid back, it's not a big deal you just go to a Tamassran when you want sex (but sex with someone you love or choose to have sex with is banned for some reason) until you realize that people don't choose their roles, they're forced into them and any nonconformity gets them brainwashed (through beatings, humiliation, sleep deprivation, etc...if we go by that codex entry). Tamassrans don't get to choose, they'd basically be sex slaves. I don't think that was intentional on BioWare's part, I feel like they wanted Iron Bull and the Qun to come across as more laid back and casual about things including sex and didn't consider the implications.
Huh? Why would it be only women?
The Qun is disgusting, all right.
Huh? Why would it be only women?
Tamassran are only women .
Anyway the whole thing is weird because the Tamassran are the closest thing to mothers to Qunari and later in life you can have sex with them...
Huh? Why would it be only women?
That is one of the roles of the Tamassran, and only women can be Tamassran.
That is one of the roles of the Tamassran, and only women can be Tamassran.
What does '' only women '' actually mean, though? Is it only women as in physically women, or is it a woman's job but if a male is deemed good at being a Tamassran, he becomes one, and is then seen as a woman?
What does '' only women '' actually mean, though? Is it only women as in physically women, or is it a woman's job but if a male is deemed good at being a Tamassran, he becomes one, and is then seen as a woman?
This is a very good question considering Krem's Aqun-Athlok status. What if there was a biological male who identifies as a female and is deemed good for being a Tamassran ? Does he get the role of Tamaassran ? How about just a male who is deemed good for the Tamassaran role ? Do they view him as a female now ? What if he himself does not want to ?
In a way, I am glad for the whole Aqun-Athlok thing because it opens a whole new can of worms for Bioware to both explore and solve.
No OP, it's just like in the dragon age subreddit, everyone hates the qun here too.
Though I think it says more about you than the qun that you see muslims and confucius in that religion.
I'm pretty sure you the player are supposed to dislike the Qun. I know Tallis was an attempt to portray a bit of gray into the equation but you basically start off playing any Dragon Age game as an adventurer. There are no adventurers under the Qun, just your job and duty. If you just wanted those you would not be playing a game.
I'm pretty sure you the player are supposed to dislike the Qun. I know Tallis was an attempt to portray a bit of gray into the equation but you basically start off playing any Dragon Age game as an adventurer. There are no adventurers under the Qun, just your job and duty. If you just wanted those you would not be playing a game.
Well, not just Tallis. So far, the games have tried to show a nuanced vision of the Qun. Check Sten, the Arishok and Iron Bull, and their words about the Qun. Most Qunari, including the enemies, can't help but explain how morally superior they are or how, if imperfect, their system is superior to other systems in Thedas. Even when Iron Bull defects, he does it out of loyalty to his band of brothers and not because he suddenly realized the evils of the Qun.
Compare that to every portrayal of Tevinter. No one ever makes a serious attempt at justifying the institution of slavery, slaves are almost always mistreated, Tevinter mages are shown as crazy or evil, and those positive or at least sympathetic portrayals of Tevinters (Dorian mainly, Felix, and Calpernia and Alexius up to a point) always show a desire to "reform" their country, realizing that its situation is bad and needs improving.
The irony is that Tevinter feels familiar to us. An empire whose economy relies on slaves, has a legislative body and nobles crazy about keeping their bloodlines blue? History books say "been there, done that". The Qun, however, is alien in more ways than one.
How about just a male who is deemed good for the Tamassaran role ? Do they view him as a female now ? What if he himself does not want to ?
I like the Qun. If I'm going to be a mindless sheep with my entire life activity laid out before me, I'd like it up front and in THIS LIFETIME as opposed the Chantry which offers nothing but mindless sheep with the promise of an afterlife that there is no proof of.
It is also wrong to compare the Qun to Islam. Islam is a religion. The Qun is a philosophy. Can't argue with the comparison to Communism, but the comparison to Confucianism just confuses me.
The Qun is disgusting, all right.
It works for them. Many, I am sure, are more than happy to be the sheep.
While we, particularly in the Western World, are taught that independence and freedom of thought and expression are the norm, that is not true of many cultures in this current world. Societal strictures are sometimes the norm and deviating from those same norms is considered abhorrent.
Personally, I could not live under such strictures, however, there is something comforting in having your entire life laid out before you and not having to do any thinking of your own.
We have the same thing today. It's called old school Corporate Structure.
This is a very good question considering Krem's Aqun-Athlok status. What if there was a biological male who identifies as a female and is deemed good for being a Tamassran ? Does he get the role of Tamaassran ? How about just a male who is deemed good for the Tamassaran role ? Do they view him as a female now ? What if he himself does not want to ?
In a way, I am glad for the whole Aqun-Athlok thing because it opens a whole new can of worms for Bioware to both explore and solve.
I miss the old lore where the Qun only had sex for reproduction, before they retconned it and added sex slave as a role under the Qun.
For me, it just makes me hate the Qun even more. It's fine for the writers to give me reasons to hate them, but the problem is it doesn't seem like that's what they intended, which is sort of scary - it's a hell of an implication to overlook. So in that sense, I don't like it either. I'm looking forward to blasting the Qun to bits in DA4, assuming we can 
This is a very good question considering Krem's Aqun-Athlok status. What if there was a biological male who identifies as a female and is deemed good for being a Tamassran ? Does he get the role of Tamaassran ? How about just a male who is deemed good for the Tamassaran role ? Do they view him as a female now ? What if he himself does not want to ?
In a way, I am glad for the whole Aqun-Athlok thing because it opens a whole new can of worms for Bioware to both explore and solve.
This Aqun-Athlok sounds illogical to me. How someone who don't care about individual freedom and even brainwash people to do specific job if they want it or not, even care how you call yourself. You have no personal freedom and do as we say or we will make you potato and than you do as we say, but we care about you feelings and make up some words to feel you better, ok this is actually make some sense.
This Aqun-Athlok sounds illogical to me. How someone who don't care about individual freedom and even brainwash people to do specific job if they want it or not, even care how you call yourself. You have no personal freedom and do as we say or we will make you potato and than you do as we say, but we care about you feelings and make up some words to feel you better, ok this is actually make some sense.
That's the thing. For me, it never made the Qun more sympathetic, it just added another layer onto how horrible they are, and how they don't allow individual autonomy. I don't think the Qun does care if you feel you're Aqun-Athlok. I think they will dictate whether you are or not, for their reasons.
Someone like Cassandra would probably be considered Aqun-Athlok by the Qun, and put into the military, but we know Cassandra identifies as a woman, so she'd be out of luck. You'd have to be part of a very small group (actually being transgender and having the Qun give you a job for your felt gender) for it to be a good thing.
My thoughts on the Aqun-Athlok concept:
I feel like their intention with the Tamassrans being at one's beck and call for sex and the Aqun-Athlok was to make the Qun seem more relatable and accepting but IMO it backfired. You have the whole sex-slave thing with Tamassrans and with the Aqun-Athlok, it seems fine at first because it fits Krem's situation: he identifies as male and is a good warrior but it really just doesn't make any sense. For one, they're not actually accepting of transgender identity. If you have someone who is biologically male though identifies as female but their greatest skill is being a warrior then tough cookies, you're a man no matter how you think of yourself. If you're biologically female and think of yourself as female (and even have the handy dandy ability to become pregnant) but are a skilled warrior then you're relabeled as a man no matter how you think of yourself. You'll look the same, feel the same way about yourself, but have a different label forced on you. So clearly it's not about the emotion based choice of respecting people's gender identity but it's also not logical. A cold but logical gender discrimination would forbid women from fighting because since a woman can only give birth once every 9 months but a man can impregnate multiple women without the same kind of limits women would be more reproductively valuable and therefore kept as safe as possible.
The Qun as it was presented in DA:O and DA2 seemed to follow the latter. It's not appealing to most of us in modern society as it takes away individuality and freedom but it was at least logical. The Qun as it's presented in DA:I makes no sense and seems to contradict itself. "Women can't fight but some women can fight so instead of making exceptions and letting women fight we forbid women from fighting but let women fight and just call them men," 
wut. We're also clearly told even in DA:I about reprograming people who stray from their assigned role and yet if Iron Bull chooses to warn the Chargers instead of letting them die, he may have done something that hurts the Qun but is clearly not actively rebellious against it and yet they never try to bring him back for "re-education." This kind of slip up seems like the perfect example of someone who needs to be re-educated as he's not rebellious and was a great asset but is emotionally compromised and confused and has been left with too much freedom for too long. Instead of following their own logic though, they just immediately shut him out and try to kill him.
I never liked the Qun but I enjoyed it as an alien and antagonistic force. It was something so cold and logical but there were also good points such as lack of crime, poverty, roles assigned based on abilities rather than certain races or social classes never being able to rise above and so on. You had the utterly horrifying treatment of mages and yet the Qunari didn't have abominations, demons, and blood mages running rampant because of it. It was horrible and yet you could see how desperate people such as runaway slaves and the poor and oppressed might find it better than what they had. The Qun now...it just seems like a bunch of random ideas made up on the spot and kind of thrown together to make something that just doesn't seem well realized or believable. I can't imagine it as a real culture.
I feel like the ideas of casual sex and acceptance of gender identity shouldn't have been shoved in to try and make the Qun seem more relatable, they should have been Iron Bull's traits. I think it would have helped the Qun as a concept stay logical but also made Iron Bull's struggle between the rigid Qun and the more modern rest of Thedas seem more moving, more personal.
I think you've missed the most important undertone to the IB discussing the Qun: he thinks it's an awful system. He's not lauding its virtues when he talks about it - he's highlighting its horror. He's funny and jovial and people seem unable to actually parse his meaning because of it. But he's not.My thoughts on the Aqun-Athlok concept:
Spoiler
I feel like their intention with the Tamassrans being at one's beck and call for sex and the Aqun-Athlok was to make the Qun seem more relatable and accepting but IMO it backfired. You have the whole sex-slave thing with Tamassrans and with the Aqun-Athlok, it seems fine at first because it fits Krem's situation: he identifies as male and is a good warrior but it really just doesn't make any sense. For one, they're not actually accepting of transgender identity. If you have someone who is biologically male though identifies as female but their greatest skill is being a warrior then tough cookies, you're a man no matter how you think of yourself. If you're biologically female and think of yourself as female (and even have the handy dandy ability to become pregnant) but are a skilled warrior then you're relabeled as a man no matter how you think of yourself. You'll look the same, feel the same way about yourself, but have a different label forced on you. So clearly it's not about the emotion based choice of respecting people's gender identity but it's also not logical. A cold but logical gender discrimination would forbid women from fighting because since a woman can only give birth once every 9 months but a man can impregnate multiple women without the same kind of limits women would be more reproductively valuable and therefore kept as safe as possible.
The Qun as it was presented in DA:O and DA2 seemed to follow the latter. It's not appealing to most of us in modern society as it takes away individuality and freedom but it was at least logical. The Qun as it's presented in DA:I makes no sense and seems to contradict itself. "Women can't fight but some women can fight so instead of making exceptions and letting women fight we forbid women from fighting but let women fight and just call them men,"
I never liked the Qun but I enjoyed it as an alien and antagonistic force. It was something so cold and logical but there were also good points such as lack of crime, poverty, roles assigned based on abilities rather than certain races or social classes never being able to rise above and so on. You had the utterly horrifying treatment of mages and yet the Qunari didn't have abominations, demons, and blood mages running rampant because of it. It was horrible and yet you could see how desperate people such as runaway slaves and the poor and oppressed might find it better than what they had. The Qun now...it just seems like a bunch of random ideas made up on the spot and kind of thrown together to make something that just doesn't seem well realized or believable. I can't imagine it as a real culture.
I feel like the ideas of casual sex and acceptance of gender identity shouldn't have been shoved in to try and make the Qun seem more relatable, they should have been Iron Bull's traits. I think it would have helped the Qun as a concept stay logical but also made Iron Bull's struggle between the rigid Qun and the more modern rest of Thedas seem more moving, more personal.
Nobody hates the Qunari like the Baconer!
The Qunari also practice slavery. Ironically, they are the only other nation to openly do so beyond their most bitter enemy, the Imperium.
The Orlesians do so as well: Orlesian serfs can be traded around, and unlike Fereldan freeholders, are legally at the mercy of the nobility and the Chevaliers. Their only defense being whatever noble they live under not wanting their "property" damaged, and then the offense is against the noble not the serf. The treatment Fereldans received during the occupation was very similar to the way Orlesians treat their own people. The servants as well can be traded around and are in the same situation, just in a more urban setting. Compare Leliana's comments on Elven servants and Dorian's speech on slavery not being that bad.
Serf is actually a translation of the actual word for slave{(servus) which could also mean servant} in Latin. Servus/Serf Servanis/Servant.
In case you were wondering why slave is used instead of serf in our language: It comes from the Crimean and North African(Ottoman) raids on the Slavic people of Eastern Europe that netted them about 1.5 million slaves during the Middle Ages.
As for why it's used in Thedas? It might be a derivative of a Dwarven word(since Common/English is the Dwarven Trade Tongue), Corypheus makes an off-hand comment in Legacy about Dwarves owning slaves during his time.
Which isn't the scientific method to begin with?
Since "chaos" does indeed exsist and it is a concern of the pobability theory and the probabilistic theory of causality...
The Qun is what you can call science in the middle age.
The Canto most likely uses a definition closer to the original meaning of Chaos as in: truly random/fundamentally incomprehensible. Chaos in modern physics only appears random, due to the great sensitivity to a multitude of variables, in other words: Complexity.
My thoughts on the Aqun-Athlok concept:
Spoiler
The Qun as it was presented in DA:O and DA2 seemed to follow the latter. It's not appealing to most of us in modern society as it takes away individuality and freedom but it was at least logical. The Qun as it's presented in DA:I makes no sense and seems to contradict itself. "Women can't fight but some women can fight so instead of making exceptions and letting women fight we forbid women from fighting but let women fight and just call them men,"
Yes, that comic illustrates what I was trying to explain! However, I don't think your last example contradicts earlier concepts of the Qun, silly and illogical though it may be. David Gaider's comment from 2010 explains how the Qun treat gender, and how it's related to role, unlike our culture. A lot of misunderstanding comes from there. It's insane-troll-logic, but as In Exile said, they're always operated on insane-troll-logic. Krem is nothing new, he just seems like it at first glance.
I think you've missed the most important undertone to the IB discussing the Qun: he thinks it's an awful system. He's not lauding its virtues when he talks about it - he's highlighting its horror. He's funny and jovial and people seem unable to actually parse his meaning because of it. But he's not.
The whole point is that he's conflicted about it, not that he sees it as an awful system. He sees both good and bad.
The Qun was NEVER logical. It is insane troll logic and logical fallacies through and through. This comes from some of the very first conversations we have with Sten. The Arishok goes even further in illustrating the absurd and abusive hypocrisy of the Qun.
The Qun doesn't assign roles based on your ability. It defines you as a person based on what a small cadre of elite decide defines your ability. This is the point that's driven home by the Arishok and the Saarebas in DA2, and we see with Sten in DAO. It's not a virtue - the Qunari just portray it that way, in the same way that Dorian gives you his slavery isn't all that bad speech.
And the difference is? It's very logical to assign someone based on their abilities rather than their whims or desires and they analyze their people from the time they're children to discover their aptitudes.
The Qun just isn't logical. Hawke can ask the Arishok how many qunari he lost to the Tal-vasoth. The response is that he lost none - because a "true" Qunari would never do it. That's not logic -that's the No True Scotsman logical fallacy. The most basic idea of the Qun is nonsense.
The Qun is a strange and alien set of presumptions that are totally divorced from reality and applied in an ad hoc and self serving way. It's been this way since DAO.
What we learn about the Qun in DAI is just more reality denying logic - it's a syllogism that works only on insane troll logic.
It used to seem logical. Everything from the strict roles to the assigned breeding to the denial of romance to the borg-like adherence to this hive mind and its' rules all point to a cold and logical society. This isn't something appealing but it's something that we can understand the reasoning behind. All the new stuff seems so random and ill-fitting like it was just thrown in, tacked on without thought to make the Qun seem more palatable.
If the Qun was random and nonsensical before (which I don't think it was) why just throw in more random nonsense rather than trying to nail down the concept for a believable culture?
As for re-education, you're missing the point. The IB was already re-educated. It failed. Everything about his story is about his trying to own up to the fact that he's already abandoned the Qun. He just can't get himself to own up to it until he has to actually abandon it to save the Chargers. That's why he breaks the moment they're sacrificed.
Every single thing he says about the Qun emphasizes how awful he views it to be - everything he says about Seheron and Par Vollen stresses how broken the society is
Iron Bull turned himself in for re-education but was instead assigned a less psychologically taxing job. I think you're the one missing the point. The point is that Iron Bull is caught between both worlds, just look at his personal quest. If you let the chargers die he fully commits to the Qun again and the effects of that are felt in Trespasser. Anyway, that still doesn't address the previously stated fact that "Qunari waste nothing" they don't try to bring Iron Bull back (he would have come willingly) for re-education or to be turned into a mindless worker. Why would a culture that is so big on brainwashing and not wasting resources not even try on this extremely useful asset that rather than being rebellious is lost and confused? Everything he says about Seheron and Par Vollen stresses how bad the war with Tevinter is and how it affects the regular people, it's not about the Qun. You can tell in certain parts that he's actively trying to portray the Qun in a good light.
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