171 réponses à ce sujet

[Arvaarad]

To me, it feels a little nonsensical to treat cultural morality as a formula. Tot up the good in one column, the bad in the other, and a single number pops out! Look, culture A is 50% evil, but culture B is only 34% evil! Culture B must be better!

 

Now, I'm not saying "every culture has the same amount of good and evil." I'm just saying that it's not a very meaningful quantity. I found a number, great, now I join culture B! But we've just established that culture B is 34% evil. Maybe if I had taken the good parts of culture A, and combined them with the good parts from culture B, I'd end up with something better.

 

My parents grew up in two very different countries, so I think about this a lot. Yet I've never thought to myself "oh, I'll stick with my father's culture because it's better" or "I'll go with my mother's culture because it's better". Does one of them have more positives than the other? Almost certainly. But I'd rather judge each of those positives and negatives individually. Why should I force myself to accept cultures as a package deal?

 

For example, here are some aspects of Qunari society that I like:

• they put emphasis on technological advancement, and are objectively ahead of the rest of Thedas when it comes to engineering
• they make room for people that the rest of Thedas neglects, such as those with disabilities and enslaved elves
• they spend more time thinking about their own responsibility to society
• with some caveats, talent determines someone's job - not prior connections or family lineage

And here are some that I don't like:

• unprovoked aggression toward other nations
• coercive application of what should be a personal philosophy
• indoctrination of children
• much of their technological advancement is being wasted on instruments of war
• the gender-linking just seems inefficient; preventing ideal job-to-person matchings

 

Again, I'm not asserting that Qunari society is equally as good as other Thedosian cultures. I'm not saying that if the good and bad are summed together, I'll get the same sum for every culture. But most cultures have some elements that are good, and can be taken and used. And other elements that are bad, which we can discard.

 

IMO, that's a far more useful exercise, vs. arguing over how to perform math on morality. 

[Donquijote and 59 others]

well what make the elfs gods better than the Qun .

The mother of the Halla!

[Donquijote and 59 others]

Honestly, I don't think that countries like Ferelden (let's decide who will be king by duel!), or Orlais with its Game stand any chance in conflict.

Did you ever tried to duel Loghain with the mabari?
A Dog who will decide the new ruler!
that's how Ferelden politics work...

[Navasha]

 

Again, I'm not asserting that Qunari society is equally as good as other Thedosian cultures. I'm not saying that if the good and bad are summed together, I'll get the same sum for every culture. But most cultures have some elements that are good, and can be taken and used. And other elements that are bad, which we can discard.

 

IMO, that's a far more useful exercise, vs. arguing over how to perform math on morality. 

 

The problem here is authoritarianism.   The more controlled a society is the less 'picking and choosing' you are allowed.    You don't get to think 'heretical' thoughts in the Qun.    You either accept ALL of it, or you are taken in and lobotomized.   

 

That's the difference.   In 'free' cultures, you have choices.    You don't like something, then don't practice it.   You want to make changes?   Then convince others to see it from your point of view.    If you can't make anyone else see your point of view, you are free to leave those cultures.  Nothing like that exists within the Qun.    You can't even leave from the Qun, or they hunt you down and kill you.  

[In Exile]

From an in-game perspective, nothing in DAO hints that what we've learned about Qunari culture weren't facts. Facts seen through the perception of the characters who lived under the Qun, but there aren't really hints of dissent until the mass Tal Vashoth desertions on the Wounded Coast and Tallis in MotA. I don't think it's fair that people who saw a change in Qun doctrine between DAO and DAI were "wrong" because they didn't know Bioware's intentions behind the scenes; they were working on information available to them through the game. So yeah, Bioware hopefully had a plan on how we would learn more about the Qunari and how it's not as unified as outsiders think it is, and that was done well so far, I think. But they provided this information through an unreliable narrator in IB, who confesses to being a spy and liar, and in Trespasser can be shown to be more of a liar than we thought. 

 

Sten only talked in insane troll logic. The things he said simply don't accord with reality. People who see a change are wrong because there's no inconsistency. New information that doesn't contract what's established isn't a change. 

[In Exile]

If the Qun stops messing with people who don't follow it, then we can start talking about respect. Though even then we'd have issues, since brainwashing people into accepting abuse doesn't make that abuse right.

I continue to support Anarcho-Qunism, personally.

 

Let's be fair here - the Qun strictly speaking doesn't recognize people who don't follow it. It recognizes apparently sapient objects that don't follow it. 

[Ieldra]

For example, here are some aspects of Qunari society that I like:

• they put emphasis on technological advancement, and are objectively ahead of the rest of Thedas when it comes to engineering
• they make room for people that the rest of Thedas neglects, such as those with disabilities and enslaved elves
• they spend more time thinking about their own responsibility to society
• with some caveats, talent determines someone's job - not prior connections or family lineage

And here are some that I don't like:

• unprovoked aggression toward other nations
• coercive application of what should be a personal philosophy
• indoctrination of children
• much of their technological advancement is being wasted on instruments of war
• the gender-linking just seems inefficient; preventing ideal job-to-person matchings

I'll add "attitude towards magic" to the downsides but otherwise I agree. The problem is that usually, cultures *are* package deals to some extent. You can disagree with the aspects you don't like, but you can't get away from them if they're encoded in law.

For me, the aspect that tips the balance is totalitarianism. Your typical authoritarian culture - and most of Thedas' cultures are that in the end - say "obey the ruler and you're otherwise free". The Qun attempts to invade and change your thoughts if you don't conform. To cultures like that, I'll always answer: "Yes, I know you all only want my best - but you won't get it".

[Wulfram]

I don't really see much evidence of current Qunari technological advancement. Basically, they arrived with cannon, they've still got them.

The people with the real emphasis on technological advancement seem to be the dwarves. For example, inventing smokless coal got Branka made a paragon

[Bayonet Hipshot]

I don't really see much evidence of current Qunari technological advancement. Basically, they arrived with cannon, they've still got them.

The people with the real emphasis on technological advancement seem to be the dwarves. For example, inventing smokless coal got Branka made a paragon

 

This. We see them using Vitaar and Gaatlok cannons but that's it. Their technology seems to be weapon focused, specifically chemistry focused instead of the Dwarves who have made technological advancements that are focused on general living and weapons. The exception to this is medicine since Qunari seem to have better overall health and healthcare.

 

I don't hear the Qunari having the steam powered mechanical thresher, seeding drills, spinning frames, repeating crossbows or smokeless fuel or Golems or what have you. They most certainly are not adept in technosorcery like the Ancient Elves with their Eluvians, Fade library constructs and Somnaboriums. The Codex does not imply that Qunari armors and weapons have some superiority to them over the weapons and armor of the other races.

 

If anything I would make the case that the Qunari are technologically adept in chemistry and medicine but not much else, simply because we do not see any evidence for it. I don't think they are the de-facto technologically advanced race in Thedas. Technological advancement requires innovation, a willingness to break away from the norm and think creatively. The Qun as a system simply does not allow for such mentality to exist.

[In Exile]

I don't really see much evidence of current Qunari technological advancement. Basically, they arrived with cannon, they've still got them.

The people with the real emphasis on technological advancement seem to be the dwarves. For example, inventing smokless coal got Branka made a paragon

Or a repeater crossbow. But apparently the Qunari have quite advanced medicine, according to an old post from Mary Kirby (on longevity). I think we have to accept a degree of technology in stasis given the nature of the setting.

Though I would say dwarves ingenuity is sometimes more about practical application of magic. Certainly golems are not really technology in the same way.

[Secret Rare]

Certainly golems are not really technology in the same way.

What you mean?

In so far we didn't see many golems but there are hints that there are many types of golems some are very advanced

[Navasha]

We also have no true indication that the Qunari actually developed the cannons or medicine either.    They have had them since we first heard about them arriving.   It could easily be stuff they stole from wherever it was they came from before they set foot in this part of Thedas.

[Bayonet Hipshot]

We also have no true indication that the Qunari actually developed the cannons or medicine either.    They have had them since we first heard about them arriving.   It could easily be stuff they stole from wherever it was they came from before they set foot in this part of Thedas.

 

This is possible. It could be that Qunari medicine prowess is simply a byproduct of having a tightly regulated society. I mean if you control food production (indirectly control what people eat & drink) and make sure there are sufficient people to manage the sanitation, people are going to be naturally healthy. Additionally, Qunari biology could make them highly resistant or immune to many illness.

 

As for the Gaatlok cannons, I don't know. I guess a totalitarian society does not encourage inventions but you never know.

[Donquijote and 59 others]

We also have no true indication that the Qunari actually developed the cannons or medicine either.    They have had them since we first heard about them arriving.   It could easily be stuff they stole from wherever it was they came from before they set foot in this part of Thedas.

Qunari already have motorcycles in Par vollen,didn't you see the advertisement in this thread?

But they don't want to use it in Thedas

[Arvaarad]

I'll add "attitude towards magic" to the downsides but otherwise I agree. The problem is that usually, cultures *are* package deals to some extent. You can disagree with the aspects you don't like, but you can't get away from them if they're encoded in law.

Fair point, though neighborhood-to-neighborhood variation mitigates some of the "package deal" aspect. Ultimately laws are enforced (or left unenforced) by many people. The triumvirate can say "this is how it is" until they're blue in the face, but local Qunari decide how it actually plays out.

This effect is reduced in totalitarian regimes, for sure. But eventually, even the most dictator-y of dictators runs into a wall - they physically can't be in multiple locations at once.

Especially in pre- or early industrial cultures, the actual application of rules is going to come down to lots of local bureaucrats. There's simply no way for central authorities to monitor/personally interfere with everything.

And chances are, each of those local officials is going to have their own interpretation of the Qun, matching some of the "party line", but not all.

Based on what I've seen in real life, the vast majority of people do gravitate toward what's good in their religion/philosophy/political platform, and are almost always more moderate and sensible than the public perception of the community they belong to. I expect local Qunari bureaucrats (and local Tevinter bureaucrats, and local Orlesian bureaucrats, etc.) follow a similar pattern.

For example, would it really be worse to live under Iron Bull's tamassran, compared to living under Howe or Alrik or Zathrian or Petrice? And of course there are good non-Qunari leaders and bad Qunari leaders too. But my point is that, in the end, it's the local official that affects 95% of my day-to-day life.

[AlanC9]

Or a repeater crossbow. But apparently the Qunari have quite advanced medicine, according to an old post from Mary Kirby (on longevity). I think we have to accept a degree of technology in stasis given the nature of the setting.
Though I would say dwarves ingenuity is sometimes more about practical application of magic. Certainly golems are not really technology in the same way.

Note that Bio's got a huge degree of leeway here unless they've done something in the novels, since we've never come anywhere near qunari lands in the games.

This also goes to Arvaraad's point. Maybe it's like 1984, and it's really the Party members themselves who are the most reshaped by the system while the proles are just kept kinda stultified. Maybe it's like Ceaucescu's Romania, or North Korea today. More likely it's a bit like all, but not really like any.

[teh DRUMPf!!]

 I'm not pro-Qun, myself, but I feel like it gets so much hate from fans that it has become an under-appreciated entity within the setting. Generally speaking, I like the values they promote, but typically dislike the application. There are a few practices I very much agree with, though, and I do find at least some of the end result desirable. I like that there is racial equality, for instance, and that the majority seem to enjoy better standards-of-living to most others in Thedas.

 

I still see them as an enemy that needs to be stopped at just about any cost. I just regret a bit I have to fight an ideology with which I share lots of values. Not like Tevinter whom I can happily run through the meat-grinder and not think twice about it.

[Heimerdinger]

They are a culture from a far off land, designed to be different, I see no reason to hate them. Other cultures in Thedas aren't that great either. Now that I think about it, the traditionalist dwarven society has way more bullshit than the Qun...

[Kurogane335]

Yeah, more bullshit feast about the Qun... meanwhile the worst things ever happened to the Da world (i.e, the Chantry and Solas) are seen as okay or even outright good. Really incomprehensible...

 

It's not like people don't end up doing that under other systems. At least under the Qun you're not doing that because you're a pathetic loser who couldn't get a better job. (Well, except that you kind of are, since they wouldn't have put you in that job if they though you were capable of more important work.)

 

The difference with the rest of the world is that the s***-shover is actually held in just as much high esteem than any other role in the society. Meaning that even an Arishok wouldn't look at him despising him. It changes a lot.

 

I would also like to point out the fallacy inj Solas "example" of a baker :

 

He says she does that as an act of rebellion, at her level. That's great. Except that if the Qunari don't have cookies, it's because they don't have leftover from when they bake cakes or breads. It means that they are given just the ingredient necessaries to do the rations they are tasked with. Which means that the bakers actually get the supplementary sugar from someone delivering it to her. This person get the sugar from the place it is made into sugar. This place get the sugar from the plantations used to grow plants which produce sugar once transformed. If the baker put even only a little more sugar in everything she bake, the difference end to be enormous, even during only one day.

 

And the supervisors of the baker will note of the extra sugar, and so will do those who get her bread. Before long a Ben-Hassrath will learn of that. And he will do nothing about it, as he has apparently done for quite some time in Solas' example. Why ? Because it is not a rebellion, not even a little. Perhaps the Ben-Hassrath actually love the supplementary sugar in his bread ? Perhaps he actually believe that the extra sugar provide a very slight marginal input of productivity for the whole society, because the people who get the bread from the baker are actually all the more happy to do their duty and help the baker if need arise ? Perhaps it is not at all an act of rebellion, because the Qun doesn't care about so little a details, which would break the "Qun = totalitarism" which is the only "argument" used to defile it.

 

We don't know what the Ben-Hassrath thinks. But we know one thing for sure : as long as you don't actually and actively undermine the Qun, the Ben-Hassrath won't care about your personal beliefs, how much you care for the complexities of the Qun and all that. That's what I got from the example used by Solas. He wanted to use it to prove that even among drones, some individuality survived. I see it as him not having understood anything about the Qun, the lives of Qunari or the fact that they are actually just as much people than himself or anybody else.

[Mistic]

We don't know what the Ben-Hassrath thinks. But we know one thing for sure : as long as you don't actually and actively undermine the Qun, the Ben-Hassrath won't care about your personal beliefs, how much you care for the complexities of the Qun and all that. That's what I got from the example used by Solas. He wanted to use it to prove that even among drones, some individuality survived. I see it as him not having understood anything about the Qun, the lives of Qunari or the fact that they are actually just as much people than himself or anybody else.

 

As a former rebel leader, Solas has a knee-jerk reaction to anything that smells like totalitarianism. He imagines everybody suffering and wanting to rebel, overlooking that in almost every society, fictional or not, most people tend to live their lives and get by the best way they can. Which is logical and in-character for him. Doesn't mean people would prefer his "veil falls, everybody dies" approach to solve world problems, though.

[In Exile]

The difference with the rest of the world is that the s***-shover is actually held in just as much high esteem than any other role in the society. Meaning that even an Arishok wouldn't look at him despising him. It changes a lot.

 

We don't know that's true. The Qunari say that's true, but so did the Communists, and it really wasn't. We've never seen their society yet.

[Bayonet Hipshot]

We don't know that's true. The Qunari say that's true, but so did the Communists, and it really wasn't. We've never seen their society yet.

 

This. Remember the Potemkin Villages ? I would not be surprised if the Qun has some of these in their homeland to impress outsiders and subtly persuade them to join the Qun.

[In Exile]

This. Remember the Potemkin Villages ? I would not be surprised if the Qun has some of these in their homeland to impress outsiders and subtly persuade them to join the Qun.

I don't think the Qun converts that way. From what we see they are strong believers in forced reduction camps. Not sure they'd bother with the pretense.

[9TailsFox]

I don't think the Qun converts that way. From what we see they are strong believers in forced reduction camps. Not sure they'd bother with the pretense.

I don't know I think Qun would use propaganda it's great tool, they could create revolts and win easy without using any solders. Or just to get wiling followers. Like city elfs well it's not really propaganda life is really better for elf.

[The Baconer]

We don't know what the Ben-Hassrath thinks. But we know one thing for sure : as long as you don't actually and actively undermine the Qun, the Ben-Hassrath won't care about your personal beliefs, how much you care for the complexities of the Qun and all that. 

 

We've known that isn't true for a long time.