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[Nixou]

meanwhile the worst things ever happened to the Da world (i.e, the Chantry and Solas) are seen as okay or even outright good

 

 

Just wait until DA4 includes a romanceable Tamassran: you'll get your pro-Qunari in droves afterward.

[kann.nix9mm]

We've known that isn't true for a long time. 

 

Example?

[The Baconer]

Example?

World of Thedas vol.1

Belief in gods like the Maker will be stopped, even with violence if necessary.

[Kurogane335]

 

Just wait until DA4 includes a romanceable Tamassran: you'll get your pro-Qunari in droves afterward.

 

It won't happen. It's prettu clear that Bioware as dropped the ball on playable Qunari or a Qunari side story, if there ever was such a ball to begin with.

 

World of Thedas vol.1

Belief in gods like the Maker will be stopped, even with violence if necessary.

 

Because the Maker actively undermine the Qun. It profess a world were the "brilliant few" are exalted over the "mediocre many" (to quote Solas), and said exaltation is not based on what one can do to the society as a whole, but how much he is supposed to stand in the regard of a being which is inscrutable. The Chantry promote an inegalitarian system whose foundations rest on the accumulation of sanctified power in the hands of a select few (women in the South, men in Tevinter) and served as the foundation of feudal order in the South (One Maker, one Prophetess, one Ruler). While, to my knowledge, it is certain yet, it is a reasonable assumption to say that the first nobles, or at least those who rose to prominence during Drakon's reign and perhaps before, in Orlais were the most devout followers of the Maker and Andraste.

 

Also, the Qunari know well that if the elves are such downtrodden people in Southern Thedas it is because of the Chantry, which didn't not (and probably still does not) promote the idea of "Enlighten the elves to the glory of the Maker so they could be our equals" but more "repent forever for the paganism of your ancestors". It runs pretty contrary to the tenets of the Qun : no matter who you are, you have a respectable place; no matter your race, if you have a certain rank (lets say Sten) you are equal to any other Sten (a "Kossith" Sten don't hold more respect or power than an elven one. perhaps more clout, and even then it is debatable, because if the Elvish Sten is really devout, he could have more clout).

 

We also know that the Qunari don't let outsiders step into their cities, and that their full-society is seen there, so it is doubtful that "Potemkin" villages are set up. And since we know that the Qun is mostly followed, with rebellions mainly happening in situations where there society is not fully functional (DA II, with the Arishok forces stranded in foreign lands for years, or Seheron which suffer a century long war, even if Tallis's master seems to be an exception and we don't know why he became a Tal-Vashoth). So far, it seems that Par Vollen is free from this trouble, and so is Rivaïn (where it seems that Viddathari are allowed to retain some cultural practices (and apparently their religion and the Qun is, if not similar, at least compatible). Which makes me want to see how the Qunari act toward the Rivain hedge witches. After all, they should have been leashed or killed by them if they were bas-saarebas and it should have led to the Rivainis to reject the Qun, since the hedge witches are so integral to their culture.

[AlanC9]

It won't happen. It's prettu clear that Bioware as dropped the ball on playable Qunari or a Qunari side story, if there ever was such a ball to begin with.

Because it wouldn't be workable in Tevinter?

[The Baconer]

Because the Maker actively undermine the Qun.

We also know that the Qunari don't let outsiders step into their cities, and that their full-society is seen there, so it is doubtful that "Potemkin" villages are set up. And since we know that the Qun is mostly followed, with rebellions mainly happening in situations where there society is not fully functional (DA II, with the Arishok forces stranded in foreign lands for years, or Seheron which suffer a century long war, even if Tallis's master seems to be an exception and we don't know why he became a Tal-Vashoth). So far, it seems that Par Vollen is free from this trouble, and so is Rivaïn (where it seems that Viddathari are allowed to retain some cultural practices (and apparently their religion and the Qun is, if not similar, at least compatible). Which makes me want to see how the Qunari act toward the Rivain hedge witches. After all, they should have been leashed or killed by them if they were bas-saarebas and it should have led to the Rivainis to reject the Qun, since the hedge witches are so integral to their culture.

The Maker can't undermine anything, because the Maker itself doesn't really do anything. Believing in the Maker doesn't necessarily coincide with believing in the Chantry.

As for Rivain, we do know they have a Tal-Vashoth presence. The original codex entry for Tal-Vashoth was from a journal taking place in Rivain, after all.

The Qunari themselves only have a foothold in Kont-Aar. If they were able to sink their teeth into the southern areas more vigorously, I'm sure those Seers would know proper Qunari hospitality :>

[Kurogane335]

The Qunari held all of the North, except for Minrathous at one point in time, and for several years, even decades in some places. We know that they arrived in 6:30 Steel, conquered the whole of Antiva (and thus Rivain before that) by 6:32 and that the New Exalted Marches began in 6:85 and lasted until 7:84. So they held Rivain for more than a century ! And yet their treatment of the hedge witches didn't elicit violent revolt among all the Rivainis, or even most of them (the existence of Kont-Aar seems to imply that Rivain isn't trying to dislodge them). It appears that here, their treatment of the mages did not lead to resentment among the locals. Perhaps it is a mistake from the developers, but perhaps it is something else.

[Heimdall]

The Qunari held all of the North, except for Minrathous at one point in time, and for several years, even decades in some places. We know that they arrived in 6:30 Steel, conquered the whole of Antiva (and thus Rivain before that) by 6:32 and that the New Exalted Marches began in 6:85 and lasted until 7:84. So they held Rivain for more than a century ! And yet their treatment of the hedge witches didn't elicit violent revolt among all the Rivainis, or even most of them (the existence of Kont-Aar seems to imply that Rivain isn't trying to dislodge them). It appears that here, their treatment of the mages did not lead to resentment among the locals. Perhaps it is a mistake from the developers, but perhaps it is something else.

Actually we know that shortly after the Qunari were jettisoned something of a religious cleansing occurred in Rivain, with Andrastian Rivaini slaughtering and attempting to purge the Qunari. That they were not dislodged from Kont-Aar was not for lack of effort. It remains mostly either because nobody is willing to muster the effort or fear of reprisal from Par Vollen (As doing so is a violation of the treaty)

[Kurogane335]

Actually we know that shortly after the Qunari were jettisoned something of a religious cleansing occurred in Rivain, with Andrastian Rivaini slaughtering and attempting to purge the Qunari. That they were not dislodged from Kont-Aar was not for lack of effort. It remains mostly either because nobody is willing to muster the effort or fear of reprisal from Par Vollen (As doing so is a violation of the treaty)

 

But we also know that the Chant is weak in Rivain and that the Andrastian are a minority there. So technically the ethnic cleansing was done by a minority helped by foreign powers toward another minority. The main religious group in Rivain remained neutral and it appears to be not opposed to the Qunari, otherwise they would have tried to destroy Kont-Aar during the Exalted Marches, since even a settlment as mighty as that one would have fallen if the locals had fully supported its destruction. Even then, the survival of the ancient religion after a century of occupation lead me to believe that the Qun was not so horrible and totalitarian against the Rivaini, or else it wouldn't make sense for the inhabitants to even be neutral toward the Qun. And they allow Qunari preachers in some of their villages, at least.

[Heimdall]

But we also know that the Chant is weak in Rivain and that the Andrastian are a minority there. So technically the ethnic cleansing was done by a minority helped by foreign powers toward another minority. The main religious group in Rivain remained neutral and it appears to be not opposed to the Qunari, otherwise they would have tried to destroy Kont-Aar during the Exalted Marches, since even a settlment as mighty as that one would have fallen if the locals had fully supported its destruction. Even then, the survival of the ancient religion after a century of occupation lead me to believe that the Qun was not so horrible and totalitarian against the Rivaini, or else it wouldn't make sense for the inhabitants to even be neutral toward the Qun. And they allow Qunari preachers in some of their villages, at least.

Um, no, the Chantry is the dominant religion in Rivain. The practice of old Rivaini traditions has simply been accommodated by the local religious leadership, or folded into their faith. This is the kind of thing you see in real religious history all the time. My Thesis is studying this interaction in African slaves in North America, studying how the survival of west African religious sensibilities interacted with evangelical Christianity to produce a unique form of Christianity that allowed the slaves to convert on their own terms. In Rivain, this is best seen in the Chantry controlled Circle, where the Seers were seen as not a problem until southern Templars arrived.

Kont-Aar didn't fall because it's locals defended it from the disorganized hardline Andrastian locals outside it. If the Chantry had declared an Exalted March, they could have destroyed it, but that would have broken the treaty. Not destroying something doesn't mean they accepted it. It just means they tolerate it. The Chantry didn't kill Sten or the Arishock's Qunari for being Qunari (barring radicals).

[Nixou]

So they held Rivain for more than a century ! And yet their treatment of the hedge witches didn't elicit violent revolt among all the Rivainis, or even most of them [...] It appears that here, their treatment of the mages did not lead to resentment among the locals

 

 

Another possibility is that Qunari leaders during the sixth and seventh ages were more open minded than the current crop, whose worldview was most probably heavily influenced by the violence of the exalted marches against their predecessors and the bloody stalemate in Seheron.

[Heimdall]

Another possibility is that Qunari leaders during the sixth and seventh ages were more open minded than the current crop, whose worldview was most probably heavily influenced by the violence of the exalted marches against their predecessors and the bloody stalemate in Seheron.

Actually, do we even know that there was no rebellion or uprising? Or just that there was no successful one?

[Kurogane335]

Um, no, the Chantry is the dominant religion in Rivain.

 

That's not what the wikia says :

 

 

Unlike the majority of peoples in Thedas, the Rivaini are not Andrastians and don't believe in the Maker. Rather, they are pantheists who believe in the Natural Order. As such, many hold to the belief that their god and the universe are the same.^[1] Many, especially in Kont-aar, have also converted to the Qun, as their religion and the Qun are not very contradictory. According to Ferdinand Genitivi, a well-known Chantry scholar:

[Heimdall]

That's not what the wikia says :

And that's extrapolation from a codex entry that doesn't actually say that.

The Chant of Light never truly reached the ears of these people. Resistance to the Chant goes deeper than the Qunari Wars. The Rivaini refuse to be parted from their seers, wise women who are in fact hedge mages, communicating with spirits and actually allowing themselves to be possessed. The Chantry prohibition against such magical practices violates millennia of local tradition.

. It doesn't say they aren't Andrastian, rather Genitivi appears to be suggesting that the Chant didn't "truly" reach them in that they have not adopted Chantry orthodoxy, not that they rejected the religion entirely. The treatment of Seers in Andrastian Circles in Rivain supports this interpretation.

[The Baconer]

I would bet that many Rivaini practice their own version of the Qun, perhaps one truer to the philosophies of Koslun.

The idea of a "Seer" is anthema to Qunari society, and we also know from World of Thedas that bas mages are given brain bleach by default.

Furthermore, those pogroms were committed by the Rivaini Chantry and Rivaini nationalists, so there's probably more resistance to the Qunari than you're surmising.

[In Exile]

And that's extrapolation from a codex entry that doesn't actually say that.. It doesn't say they aren't Andrastian, rather Genitivi appears to be suggesting that the Chant didn't "truly" reach them in that they have not adopted Chantry orthodoxy, not that they rejected the religion entirely. The treatment of Seers in Andrastian Circles in Rivain supports this interpretation.

The link about pantheism is sourced to WOT. I'm not sure that codex entry addresses it.

[VorexRyder]

Or a repeater crossbow. But apparently the Qunari have quite advanced medicine, according to an old post from Mary Kirby (on longevity). I think we have to accept a degree of technology in stasis given the nature of the setting.

Though I would say dwarves ingenuity is sometimes more about practical application of magic. Certainly golems are not really technology in the same way.

Apart from the regression caused by Solas altering the fundamental laws of reality, there is no stasis in Thedas when compared to our own History, magic simply opens up another tech tree for Thedas to explore.

 

Tevinter rose 2,000 years ago from city states to empire/republic(Antiquity Begins), then spent 1,000 years conquering Thedas before falling(Antiquity ends, Fall of Western Roman Empire, Middle Ages Begin), the Chantry and Orlais are founded by Kordillus(Carolignian Empire, Early Middle Ages), 300 years later you have the Construction of the Grand Cathedral of Val Royeaux, the founding of the Imperial Chantry and the Exalted Marches(Byzantine Empire, Crusades), 200-400 years after that the Clayne tribes untied to form Ferelden, Nevarra goes from Marcher City State to Full-blown Kingdom, Qunari Land in Par Vollen(High Middle Ages, Rise of Islam,).

 

They're so far keeping pace with us.

 

 

Tevinter = 2,000 yrs ago
Roman Republic = 500 BC
End of the Middle Ages = 1400-1500 AD

2,000 yrs from the rise of the Teviner Imperium to the Present.
2,000 yrs from the rise of the Roman Republic to the end of the Middle Ages.

[Mistic]

They're so far keeping pace with us.

 

You are so right. The idea that Thedas lives in a medieval stasis has always bugged me because it doesn't take into account what happened in real-life history.

 

First, some math. Since the Thedosian calendar was adopted (1:1 Divine), eight ages have gone (Divine, Glory, Towers, Black, Exalted, Steel, Storm and Blessed),while Trespasser happens in Dragon 9:44, so less than 850 years in total. Which seems a lot, until you remember that the Middle Ages lasted for about 1,000 years.

 

To add insult to injury, we even have the Tevinter calendar, which counts time from the foundation of the Imperium. According to that one, year 9:44 would be 2038 years after the founding of the Imperium. Again, it seems a lot... until you start counting from the (alleged) date of the founding of Rome. Classically, the date was 753 BC. Now add 2038 years and it would seem that the equivalent date in Earth would be the year 1286 (there's no year 0 in the Gregorian calendar, mind you). Right in the Middle Ages.

 

Thedas doesn't live in a medieval stasis, or at least no more than real civilizations did in our world.

[Wulfram]

The history of Thedas doesn't require there be a stasis, but stuff like the ancient Tevinter Juggernaut armour being the same design as Cailan's makes it feel rather static.

A lot of the time it feels like culturally/technologically there's basically, Elven, Tevinter, "Barbarian", Qunari and Southern Thedosian and they're all basically the same at all periods, though their borders might shift a bit.

Even when there's supposed to be significant change, like between Ancient Tevinter and Andrastean Tevinter, or between ancient elves and dalish elves, there's no real sense of this being reflected visually.

[Heimdall]

The history of Thedas doesn't require there be a stasis, but stuff like the ancient Tevinter Juggernaut armour being the same design as Cailan's makes it feel rather static.

A lot of the time it feels like culturally/technologically there's basically, Elven, Tevinter, "Barbarian", Qunari and Southern Thedosian and they're all basically the same at all periods, though their borders might shift a bit.

Even when there's supposed to be significant change, like between Ancient Tevinter and Andrastean Tevinter, or between ancient elves and dalish elves, there's no real sense of this being reflected visually.

Then there's the shifting visual style between games complicating the issue.

[straykat]

I agree about the armor.

 

I chalk up the sense of stasis to various/ongoing cataclysmic events (Blights or Andraste's rebellion or the fall of Arlathan), which might hold civilization back a bit and keep it in a perpetual self-discovery and rebuilding state.

 

Along with magic. With magic, there's less necessity for technology and ingenuity on anyone else's part. It sort of kills the imagination.

[Mistic]

Even when there's supposed to be significant change, like between Ancient Tevinter and Andrastean Tevinter, or between ancient elves and dalish elves, there's no real sense of this being reflected visually.

 

I'd blame technical limitations and RPG tropes for that. Image concepts in both volumes of World of Thedas make it pretty clear that there has been a very significant evolution.

 

Take, for example, Kordillus Drakon. His concept arc in WoT makes him look like a barbarian leader, a far cry from the Orlesians today. Which makes sense since current Thedas would match our 13th century, which would put Drakon in the 5th century.