53 replies to this topic

[Vazgen]

Wasn't that 150 "operatives"? Each leading a cell. They could also had a lot of people working for them without knowing. Reaper augmentations made them into an army. Add Sanctuary to the mix.

Overall I agree with the sentiment, though I don't think it's as large an asspull as it sometimes is made out to be.

[The Real Pearl #2]

Wasn't that 150 "operatives"? Each leading a cell. They could also had a lot of people working for them without knowing. Reaper augmentations made them into an army. Add Sanctuary to the mix.

Overall I agree with the sentiment, though I don't think it's as large an asspull as it sometimes is made out to be.

your kind aint welcome round here

[Serillen]

Wasn't that 150 "operatives"? Each leading a cell. They could also had a lot of people working for them without knowing. Reaper augmentations made them into an army. Add Sanctuary to the mix.

Overall I agree with the sentiment, though I don't think it's as large an asspull as it sometimes is made out to be.

It was 150 operatives spread out over 3 cells. TIM never had more than a dozen cells operating becuase he liked to pull the strings of every cell himself. Cerberus was never big hence their shock trooper experiments with rachni, creepers, and husks.

[Vazgen]

It was 150 operatives spread out over 3 cells. TIM never had more than a dozen cells operating becuase he liked to pull the strings of every cell himself. Cerberus was never big hence their shock trooper experiments with rachni, creepers, and husks.

Ah, yes, you're correct, forgot about that!  

 

I like to pretend that they simply had a lot of employees who did not know that they were working for Cerberus. One cell can encompass, say, three companies with only the operatives knowing about the connection to Cerberus and other employees simply working like for any regular company. Then, one day, a mandatory medical evaluation is ordered... Bam, you have a bunch of Reaper-augmented soldiers  

 

While this is headcanon and I'm not trying to force it on anyone, it does help me with immersion

[Dantriges]

There are big front companies to make/launder money, so in theory you coud, but still wpuldn´t work. These guys probably work on developed worlds, the implants seem to need surgery, so you would need huge facilities hidden in your building or more time than one day and uh well if a hundred people ship out with equal and visible implants or even only show up, someone will notice.

 

The big problem is the equipment and logistics anyways to build the starbases, local bases, fighters, shuttles, cruisers, mechs, armor, weapons and other equipment. Ok armor and smaller equiment can probably be fabricated with small omnigel converters or so, but everyone above that is stretching it. Cruisers break the whole thing apart. You need established infrastructure and skilled crews to maintain a shipyard and build ships. This is a galaxy where the construction of warships is controlled. The treaty of Farixen only cares about the big guys, but inspection teams will probably visit other sites, too, just in case this cruiser looks awfully similar to a dreadnaught. Refitted freighters ok, a frigate yeah ok..., cruisers which are better than their Alliance counterpart, nope.

And assault forces in these numbers are pipedreams unless we assume that only Shepard and only him/her fights them, which is a stretch.

[Vazgen]

What if those were Alliance ships? Manufactured for the Alliance on the paper but in reality, sent to Cerberus. There can also be decomissioned ships, written off as faulty but in reality being up to date and more. Paper manipulation and bribes can go a long way. They had Udina on their side as well, so things could've gone quite smoothly. They are present in a lot of places, true, but they rarely operate with large fleets.

Don't get me wrong, the difference between their portrayal in books and ME2 and then in ME3 is jarring. Drew himself has admitted that Cerberus was not planned to be a major part of the series at all (link in my signature).

[ZipZap2000]

Hardly surprising, seems Cerberus is using intelligence dampening fields. Even Shep gets dumber than usual every time they show up.

This logic


1

With this image.




Instead of this logic, with this image.






Muahahahahahahahahahaha!

[Dantriges]

What if those were Alliance ships? Manufactured for the Alliance on the paper but in reality, sent to Cerberus. There can also be decomissioned ships, written off as faulty but in reality being up to date and more. Paper manipulation and bribes can go a long way. They had Udina on their side as well, so things could've gone quite smoothly. They are present in a lot of places, true, but they rarely operate with large fleets.

Don't get me wrong, the difference between their portrayal in books and ME2 and then in ME3 is jarring. Drew himself has admitted that Cerberus was not planned to be a major part of the series at all (link in my signature).

 

So someone greenlighted a new batch of cruisers, got the funds released, a contract issued to several shipyards and then got a Cerberus crew on board with proper papers, probably with implants (I doubt that Cerberus has enough trained personnel able to crew a fleet of warships without Reapertech) and took off? 10 times? 20? 30? 50? The fleet is small but you need some ships to pull off what Cerberus did. So no one realized this like the Navy, the bean counters in the Navy, Alliance Parliament, national governments, their accountants, the treasury, internal auditing departments, Alliance Intelligence, intel departments of other Earth nations Council organisations Spectres, military attaches of foreign powers, the press, other competitors who complain to their reps that there wasn´t a public bid, the civilians who spent their free time talking about all things military, watching ships bing built etc.

 

I know Cerberus has the superpower spies/infiltrators everywhere but we are talking about a level where they wouldn´t need to steal from the Alliance because they are the Alliance.

 

"Faulty" ships would run into the same issue. 10-20 faulty ships? That would be a major scandal, heads would roll.

 

Udina? AFAIK he threw in with Cerberus after the other council races were unwilling to help Earth and he wasn´t a Cerberus puppet earlier. Anyways he´s still beholden to the Alliance parliament and a diplomat. Ok he has many friends but somehow I doubt that many were willing to get shot for high treason working on a plan that could only fail.

 

It seems Cerberus controls Cord-Hislop Aerospace which was probably intended as the lampshade but that´s more or less the problem mentioned above. Ship building costs would have to be doubled for the bribes to the IRS alone. Uh yeah we totally built some warships someone ordered, it was the Alliance. Uh ehm what? Yes, there are no new ships in the Navy registry, here take a million credits and forget about it. No, no it´s not tax fraud or moonlighting.

 

In the end the explanation "God waved his hand and gave them a fleet" is more believable.

[Vazgen]

I know Cerberus has the superpower spies/infiltrators everywhere but we are talking about a level where they wouldn´t need to steal from the Alliance because they are the Alliance.

 

But they "were" Alliance, have they not? They could stop a rear admiral from investigating the death of his own marines in ME1. 

How many ships did they have anyway?

1 cruiser at Tuchanka,

1 cruiser at Omega

1 cruiser at Grissom

 

Do you have the numbers? I'm currently replaying the game but only got out from Eden Prime and don't remember the specifics.

[Dantriges]

It was more than one cruiser at Omega. I think I saw 10 in one scene alone without counting Aria´s ship or the Elbrus, but it was a bit blurry, could be 7-8. They also asked for ID, so Aria´s captured one wasn´t the last one. Don´t know how many cruisers were lost there. There is a scene at Cronos with about 20 ships stationed around the starbase. Seems the ones shown in that scene were all Cerberus. They looked more like a fleet in defensive position and/or waiting, not like part of the assault fleet.

 

Liara crashed one at Hagalaz, the Tuchanka cruiser is lost.

 

However you spin it, it´s not a handful.

[Iakus]

But they "were" Alliance, have they not? They could stop a rear admiral from investigating the death of his own marines in ME1. 

How many ships did they have anyway?

1 cruiser at Tuchanka,

1 cruiser at Omega

1 cruiser at Grissom

 

Do you have the numbers? I'm currently replaying the game but only got out from Eden Prime and don't remember the specifics.

Liara destroyed a Cerberus Cruiser at Hagalaz by ramming it with the Shadow Broker Ship

 

Aria stole a cruiser which was used to sneak to Omega where there was one or more cruisers guarding it.  And possibly a dreadnought as well.

 

Kronos Station still had enough of a fleet around it that Hackett had to move considerable forces to attack it

[Vazgen]

I remember the cutscene at Cronos showing both Alliance and Cerberus ships with only three being distinctively Cerberus (colors and crest). Overall, there were about 6-7 in the cutscene. Omega DLC opening cutscene also showed about 6-7. To compare, Aria's fleet shows about the same number of warships.

I don't remember any mentions of dreadnoughts. 

They probably had a lot of fighters, given the seemingly endless supply of them generated from the station. Those also appeared not to have any pilots. A swarm of expendable fighters like this will require a sizeable amount of forces to take down. 

And Cerberus had quite a lot of time to build a force like this, if you count not from the time of ME1 but earlier. TIM established his manifesto right after the First Contact War and the Cord-Hislop Aerospace was around for a long enough time to become "well-respected". Don't know, it doesn't sound like improbable to me.

[Jukaga]

A few dozen cruisers and a division or two or troops (call it 15k soldiers in total) doesn't stretch the bounds of credibility for me. I never agreed with the Sith Empire Cerberus characterization as we never saw that many troops deployed at once. Even for the occupation of Eden Prime, Cerb had to resort to duplicity to hold down the colony as they only had a few hundred troops at most for the entire planet.

[The Real Pearl #2]

the one good thing about cerberus is that they are able to spawn endless meat bags out of thin air that i can splatter for fun

[teh DRUMPf!!]

 Does that surprise you? The Illusive Man is basically Mitt Romney in space -- a guy in perfect position to suceed, only to fail miserably. I should really take control of the organization. We would make Cerberus great again.

 

Jack Harper,

 

 

YOU'RE FIRED!

[KrrKs]

I just looked at the Chronos fight (Cat004_arrival_pt3.bik). Cerberus has at least 9 ships there.

 

Their are distinguishable from the Alliance ships by their Cerberus logo, (which is visible on at least one ship) the colour (3 ships), the different front/wing thingies and back thrusters, and the direction they face (9 for both)

While all share the same (cruiser) model, some appear to be smaller (about frigate sized).

Either that or Chronos station is way larger than I expected.

 

As for the Omega DLC movie: The ship Aria's cruiser was shooting at was definitely dreadnought, not a cruiser.

There are also at least 4 other Cerberus Cruisers in the area.

(I think I saw up to 6 at once, right before the cruiser starts shooting, but the picture is too blurry so it could also have been lit asteroids or something.)

Considering there is no mention of them being damaged or destroyed, I'd guess they escaped and where later part of the Chronos fleet.

 

So canonically Cerberus has had at least 12 cruisers and a dreadnought. (The 9 from Chronos, plus one destroyed each at Tuchanka, Hagalaz, and the one Aria captured.)

This seems to be way to many to get within 6 months. But with a cruiser crew compliment of around 300* (mentioned somewhere in the codex), Cerberus would have no use for them before the increased number of soldiers coming from Sanctuary.

 

*This is the number for Alliance cruisers. But even if Cerberus cruisers would have significantly lower crew compliments, it doesn't match up with the stated 150 operatives.

Edited by KrrKs, 10 March 2016 - 03:46 PM.

[KrrKs]

Follow up post about the 150 operatives in 3 Cells statement.

 

The '3' cells didn't even match with what was shown in ME2.

The (at any point during that game active) Cells we now of are: Lazarus, TIM's main base, and the other base prior to Freedom's progress --which seems to be their shipyard. These are already 3 cells, and it doesn't even include Cerberus' military wing (notably whatever Petrovsky did at that time), or the other science teams.

 

As for the 150 operatives statement. AFAIK the quote was 'Each cell is led by a single operative', not that there is only a single operative per cell.

IIRC, Miranda, Jakob and Wilson were all stated to be operatives.

 

But if the intend really was that there is only one or few operatives per cell, the Cruiser number could work.

[Vazgen]

Thanks for the investigation! I think there were independent operatives as well, like that one that you do an N7 mission to save.

[Jukaga]

Or... just a thought here... maybe, just maybe TiM didn't give EDI the whole story?

[Iakus]

Follow up post about the 150 operatives in 3 Cells statement.

 

The '3' cells didn't even match with what was shown in ME2.

The (at any point during that game active) Cells we now of are: Lazarus, TIM's main base, and the other base prior to Freedom's progress --which seems to be their shipyard. These are already 3 cells, and it doesn't even include Cerberus' military wing (notably whatever Petrovsky did at that time), or the other science teams.

 

As for the 150 operatives statement. AFAIK the quote was 'Each cell is led by a single operative', not that there is only a single operative per cell.

IIRC, Miranda, Jakob and Wilson were all stated to be operatives.

 

But if the intend really was that there is only one or few operatives per cell, the Cruiser number could work.

 

"Cerberus currently consists of approximately 150 agents and operators divided into three cells"

 

"Cerberus is organized into task-oriented cells.  Each operates in isolation .  Members of one cell cannot identify the members of another.  Each cell's agents are led by a single operator.   We are the Lazarus cell which is directed by Operator Lawson."

 

"Sp how many operations is the Cerbeurs running right now?"

"Never more than a dozen.  The Illusive Man likes to maintain personal oversight.  Too many projects strains his ability to multitask"

 

Relevant sections italicized.

 

It looks like there really are only 150 or so Cerberus agents.  "Operative" is a rank within Cerberus.  There are three cells which I suppose can be used to work on different projects (given both Shepard and the SR2 were part of the Lazarus cell) but never more than a dozen projects are going on at once.

 

Also appears that TIM is a complete liar or really sucks at his job, given he seems to maintain personal oversight over the projects, yet they keep going rogue or spinning out of control, getting people killed.

[Jukaga]

I don't think the 150 agents and operators counts the grunts, janitors, cafeteria workers, shipyard personnel, and other staff but refers to people like Jacob, Miranda, Dr Archer and such.

[Master Warder Z_]

 Does that surprise you? The Illusive Man is basically Mitt Romney in space -- a guy in perfect position to suceed, only to fail miserably. I should really take control of the organization. We would make Cerberus great again.

 

Go away Drumpf! 

[ImaginaryMatter]

 

"Cerberus is organized into task-oriented cells.  Each operates in isolation .  Members of one cell cannot identify the members of another.  Each cell's agents are led by a single operator.   We are the Lazarus cell which is directed by Operator Lawson."

 

You think it would be pretty easy to recognize other Cerberus cells... just look for the logo that will be plastered on all their equipment, clothes, clothing accessories, coffee mugs, and the littered bodies of all personnel that were killed when they tried to turn on their Geth microwave!

[kalasaurus]

Cerberus is too busy to worry about trivial things like that.

[Jukaga]

Poor engineer, left out of the lovin'