Walking into a known trap in a enemy stronghold with no real backup and a fuzy plan that entirelyl depends on nothing going wrong is insanely risky, I'd hardly call that superior to anything.
And how do you feel about walking into an actual trap, getting your noble allies killed, and almost getting possessed if not for Cole during the templar mission.
You didn't understand, I never said that Science and religion cannot coexist. I said that Science, regards of the beliefs of any human being, it's a methodology by which knowledge is build on empirical evidence and it only concerns things which can be tested through rigorous empirical methods.
A scientist can be religious or not, what matters is that his or her theory has underwent rigorous scrutiny from empirical evidence, review and confirmation by other scholars utilizing the same methods by which the theorist used to prove his or her hypothesis.
Science has sustained the theory that our World and our Universe are billions of years old based on empirical evidence from centuries of radiological, geological, arqueological and mathematical research versus the belief without proof that it was made in seven days like the recipe from a book of unknown and dubious authorship.
Oh, I absolutely understood what you said. What you glossed over in this reply is my point that the scientific method is (in the hands of humans) subject to just as much corruption as humanity will subject to anything else, including religion. I didn't need an overview of how science works, thanks.
I don't think Champions of the Just is anywhere near the quality others believe (I found the Fade to be a letdown). And narratively, I think it makes DA:I a great deal worse by essentially neutering Corypheus. In the In Hushed Whispers path, we see a broken and apocalyptic world led to ruin because the Elder One won. We don't need to see Corypheus - we see all of the horror and death he wrought on the world. It's a hokey concept, but at least it makes the Elder One seem to be threatening. And most of all, it features red lyrium - an ever encroaching blight that is devouring the world.
None of that pays off in the quest - but it sure as hell pays off in In Your Heart Shall Burn (one of, IMO, the best sequences Bioware has ever done). After you see a broken world, twisted into an abominable state because the Elder One won, you have the twisted form of Corypheus and his monstrous Red Templars attack you - and they represent the same death and devastation for the world that you saw in the bad future. Without you and the Inquisition, you know that Corypheus wins. Corypheus losing in this case is a reprieve from the build up he's already had.
Contrast that with just a bunch of mundane mages. Instead of Corypheus being threatening, his first introduction is his defeat in In Your Heart Shall Burn. He looks like a chump, because he essential loses with the templars, and then loses once again with the Venatori. You never see the ruin he brings, so there's nowhere near the same desperation to the mid-game quests.
I felt they had differing strengths. In the lead-in and execution, I do think the Mages have the better route- the buildup is a more pressing problem, the faction representative (Fiona) has a better role, and the content of the mission itself really does sell the stakes the best. The world is at stake, because you've seen it after the end, and like you say it gives a good sense of the scale.
Thing is, though? I feel Champions of the Just does better carrying on afterwards.
Inquisition always struggled with what Corypheus was supposed to be. Is he the leader of an army, who can be beaten in the field? Or is he a shadowy, manipulative force, to be fereted out and uncovered like, well, an Inquisition? The mage route presumes the former- the Red Templars as the arch-enemy faction, the gambits for one army after another- but the thing is, you almost never actually need an army of your own to stop him. Most of the time the issue not knowing where Corypheus is in the first place, and there's not a clear use or role for the mages after sealing the breach because, well, what are they supposed to do? They aren't your garrison forces at that point. And they aren't a dedicated military force either. Most of the Mage missions amount to trying to bring in the hiding mages and keep the mages under your banner, rather than doing significant good with them for everyone.
The Templar route plays that better. The Venatori are schemers and conspirators and most of all maleficars. The Templars are used to that- it's practically their job- and they provide the more plausible numbers and networking to expand your anti-Corypheus force to formidable proportions. They've the political ties, the popular support, and the better reputation to feed the Inquisiton's growth. Actual anti-mages to fight the evil mages, rather than... mages to fight the corrupted anti-mages they already lost to, before they went on crack?
Even if we ignore Fiona's previous failings, there's only a one-sided comparison for afterwards. Fiona stays in the tower, does nothing particularly significant, and complains a lot and shows a lack of general self-awareness or improvement upon the Circle, because everything else about the Circle is ultimately at the whims of the Divine. While Barris the Badass goes out, stops demons, protects the innocent, and acts like an ally in hunting down Corypheus, dealing with the consequences of the Breach, and actively helping us stop the maleficar trying to gambit their way to victory through the Dangers of Magic.
Which, of course, the Templars are supposed to oppose in the first place.
So yeah- Hushed Whispers has a better mission on its own terms. But Champions of the Just carries the aftereffects better in terms of the conflicts we have.
I felt they had differing strengths. In the lead-in and execution, I do think the Mages have the better route- the buildup is a more pressing problem, the faction representative (Fiona) has a better role, and the content of the mission itself really does sell the stakes the best. The world is at stake, because you've seen it after the end, and like you say it gives a good sense of the scale.
Thing is, though? I feel Champions of the Just does better carrying on afterwards.
Inquisition always struggled with what Corypheus was supposed to be. Is he the leader of an army, who can be beaten in the field? Or is he a shadowy, manipulative force, to be fereted out and uncovered like, well, an Inquisition? The mage route presumes the former- the Red Templars as the arch-enemy faction, the gambits for one army after another- but the thing is, you almost never actually need an army of your own to stop him. Most of the time the issue not knowing where Corypheus is in the first place, and there's not a clear use or role for the mages after sealing the breach because, well, what are they supposed to do? They aren't your garrison forces at that point. And they aren't a dedicated military force either. Most of the Mage missions amount to trying to bring in the hiding mages and keep the mages under your banner, rather than doing significant good with them for everyone.
The Templar route plays that better. The Venatori are schemers and conspirators and most of all maleficars. The Templars are used to that- it's practically their job- and they provide the more plausible numbers and networking to expand your anti-Corypheus force to formidable proportions. They've the political ties, the popular support, and the better reputation to feed the Inquisiton's growth. Actual anti-mages to fight the evil mages, rather than... mages to fight the corrupted anti-mages they already lost to, before they went on crack?
Even if we ignore Fiona's previous failings, there's only a one-sided comparison for afterwards. Fiona stays in the tower, does nothing particularly significant, and complains a lot and shows a lack of general self-awareness or improvement upon the Circle, because everything else about the Circle is ultimately at the whims of the Divine. While Barris the Badass goes out, stops demons, protects the innocent, and acts like an ally in hunting down Corypheus, dealing with the consequences of the Breach, and actively helping us stop the maleficar trying to gambit their way to victory through the Dangers of Magic.
Which, of course, the Templars are supposed to oppose in the first place.
So yeah- Hushed Whispers has a better mission on its own terms. But Champions of the Just carries the aftereffects better in terms of the conflicts we have.
Except Barris never actually does anything if you conscript.
Oh, I absolutely understood what you said. What you glossed over in this reply is my point that the scientific method is (in the hands of humans) subject to just as much corruption as humanity will subject to anything else, including religion. I didn't need an overview of how science works, thanks.
*facepalm*
The scientific method is by far the most unbiased and human-idiocy proof tool conceived because regardless of what human A thinks, reality will make experiment X give result Y every time and support human B's theory if such theory actually describes why phenomena X is explained by Y.
Reality is as it is regardless of human interpretation, it is precisely because the scientific method is a rigorous empirical observation reflecting the physical laws imposed by reality that makes it inherently superior to religion as a source of knowledge.
It was the scientific-method tested Standard Model (Quantum Physics, Particle-Wave Duality, Heisenberg Uncertainty, etc...) which allowed us to build computers and cellphones, it was Molecular Chemistry which allowed us to create fuels and polymers used to make cars and airplanes and it was the Theory of Evolution (including later driven discoveries such as DNA) which proved that every human being was fundamentally identical at the nanoscopic level thus discrediting all delusions about the White Man's Burden.
Which modern confort or racial equitative measure did the Bible, the Quran, the Torah or whichever else religious source ever gave to humanity?
While there are twisted ideologies which try to cherry pick discoveries made through the scientific method to justify their views, the method itself quite easily dismantles their entire belief system because they don't follow empirical evidence to sustain each step of the construct.
By contrast, just amongs YHWH's religions, you have splits amongst Christians (Catholics, Evangelicals, Neo-Pentecoastals, etc..) and Muslims (Shia, Sunni, every Sunni school, etc...) which repeatedly caused bloody conflicts throughout history because neither divergent views could discredit the others through logical arguments.
Can you name any war which was caused on the basis of different academic interpretation of a scientifically proved theory?
Case in point, religion denies reality and evidence to assert iself which in turn allows for massive wars between indoctrinated intolerants to take place whereas Science humbly follows what reality and evidence imposes on her which in turn rewarded us with massive technological and social progress.
Whenever someone tries to put them on equal terms it always becomes a laughable example of why people without scientific education keeps holding our society back.
Except Barris never actually does anything if you conscript.
The fact that they haven't attacked it in the six months the mages have been living there, for one.
http://dragonage.wik...n_Anora_Mac_Tir
And the fact that the Templars were ordered to gather at Therinfall Redoubt which is nowhere near Redcliffe.
Both the Templars and mages fighting in the Hinterlands are offshoots who split from their main groups. The Templars in particular refused to obey the order to disengage and gather at Therinfall.
If the Templars just attacked a sovereign nation, not only would they suddenly find the monarch's armies fighting alongside the mage rebellion against them; not only would they have to face the enmity of other nations who would begin asking themselves how long until the Templars violated their own sovereignty; but they would also have to face the real possibility of the people of Thedas seeing them as the agressors and having the mage rebellion legitimized in their minds.
Hence why the Templars did not attack Ferelden in the six months the mages spent there and had no intentions of doing so whatsoever unless taken over by Corypheus.
Your point being?
So, in other words, no, you don't have any codex entries to support your claim. Redcliffe is a village, just as the Crossroads, and yet both factions attacked the Crossroads right when you arrive the first time. The fact that both are "splinter" groups is irrelevant, they are mages and Templars fighting the war, in Ferelden, and attacking villages as they see fit, or did we imagine the part burnt to the ground through the tunnel out of the Crossroads?
Then how do you explain the Inquisitor saying they closed the Breach twice?
The short answer is "You don't, because it's inconvenient to their point". Any time something presented in game is "inconvenient" it must be ignored.
Except Barris never actually does anything if you conscript.
a bug, in the keep its possible to have him as the new Knight Commander of the Templars after being conscripted so I think its safe to assume that's a canonical option.
Ignorance? The Breach is clearly not closed after either Wrath of Heaven or during IYHSB. The Inquisitor is also repeatedly called divine and the Herald of Andraste, but that doesn't make it true.Then how do you explain the Inquisitor saying they closed the Breach twice?
https://youtu.be/fPdeL3kPIbw?t=2m19s
Ignorance? The Breach is clearly not closed after either Wrath of Heaven or during IYHSB. The Inquisitor is also repeatedly called divine and the Herald of Andraste, but that doesn't make it true.
The actual answer is likely that IYHSB is a very late addition - I belive it was one of the last quests added. The plot was likely structured so the Breach is only closed once, at the end.
To the extent there's an inconsistency, what the Inquisitor says - even via auto dialogue - has to be trumped by what we see unless there is a clear WOG determination.
Yes, hence why the Inquisitor comments on closing it twice, because it was only done once. You can ignore this all you want, but unless you have something official, the game does not support your claim.
Ignorance? The Breach is clearly not closed after either Wrath of Heaven or during IYHSB. The Inquisitor is also repeatedly called divine and the Herald of Andraste, but that doesn't make it true.
The actual answer is likely that IYHSB is a very late addition - I belive it was one of the last quests added. The plot was likely structured so the Breach is only closed once, at the end.
To the extent there's an inconsistency, what the Inquisitor says - even via auto dialogue - has to be trumped by what we see unless there is a clear WOG determination.
I'm glad I wasn't the only one who thought that.
Anyway, it does seem inconsistent. There are times where characters explicitly state that it was closed after IYHSB, or closed twice total, but also times where people act like it's still open after IYHSB and before DUatW. Even the visuals seem inconsistent sometimes. For instance, in the fade, it looks like the Breach was only plugged after IYHSB, not closed, but even when you close it completely, the sky is still "scarred", which I assume looks like it does after IYHSB. So... I dunno.
I'm glad I wasn't the only one who thought that.
Anyway, it does seem inconsistent. There are times where characters explicitly state that it was closed after IYHSB, or closed twice total, but also times where people act like it's still open after IYHSB and before DUatW. Even the visuals seem inconsistent sometimes. For instance, in the fade, it looks like the Breach was only plugged after IYHSB, not closed, but even when you close it completely, the sky is still "scarred", which I assume looks like it does after IYHSB. So... I dunno.
Well it is important to remember that Inquisition was originally going to be twice as long before it was shorted because of production time. In their effort to essentially squeeze all of the important bits in, they likely had to rush in some areas in order to get it ready for release day. I wouldn't be surprised to learn that the breach was actually supposed to close in the later half of the intended story arc, but was later changed to occur earlier in order to accommodate for the new, shorter, story.
Yes, hence why the Inquisitor comments on closing it twice, because it was only done once. You can ignore this all you want, but unless you have something official, the game does not support your claim.
That's not proof. Cassandra says you're chosen by the Maker. Will you honestly say that's proof of the Maker existing and literally choosing the Inquisitor? The things we see depicted are more concrete evidence than the things character say based on information and belief. That's the same standard we apply IRL.
Unless you have a narrative convention for why we should disbelieve Cassandra (and other characters) who say the Inquisitor is divine but believe them when they talk about the Breach, a phenomenon so beyond their understanding they might as well be talking about string theory.
I'm glad I wasn't the only one who thought that.
Anyway, it does seem inconsistent. There are times where characters explicitly state that it was closed after IYHSB, or closed twice total, but also times where people act like it's still open after IYHSB and before DUatW. Even the visuals seem inconsistent sometimes. For instance, in the fade, it looks like the Breach was only plugged after IYHSB, not closed, but even when you close it completely, the sky is still "scarred", which I assume looks like it does after IYHSB. So... I dunno.
It's not just that I believe it - a dev confirmed it. I believe it was Lukas Kristtjanson (whose name I just butchered, and who I believe is the writer). This was in a thread on the Dawn Will Come sequence, as I recall.
Well it is important to remember that Inquisition was originally going to be twice as long before it was shorted because of production time. In their effort to essentially squeeze all of the important bits in, they likely had to rush in some areas in order to get it ready for release day. I wouldn't be surprised to learn that the breach was actually supposed to close in the later half of the intended story arc, but was later changed to occur earlier in order to accommodate for the new, shorter, story.
That depends on whether we think they split the story in two - Solas as the second half antagonist being punted to DA4 - or just cut half the content in the full story they wanted to tell (basically, trimmed the fat and a bunch of the meat).
That's not proof. Cassandra says you're chosen by the Maker. Will you honestly say that's proof of the Maker existing and literally choosing the Inquisitor? The things we see depicted are more concrete evidence than the things character say based on information and belief. That's the same standard we apply IRL.
Unless you have a narrative convention for why we should disbelieve Cassandra (and other characters) who say the Inquisitor is divine but believe them when they talk about the Breach, a phenomenon so beyond their understanding they might as well be talking about string theory.
It's not just that I believe it - a dev confirmed it. I believe it was Lukas Kristtjanson (whose name I just butchered, and who I believe is the writer). This was in a thread on the Dawn Will Come sequence, as I recall.
Actually, I can state w/out hesitation that we were chosen by the Maker. BioWare chose the protagonist, barring specific details, and they are the Maker, so Cass is right. Then you can solve the whole debate: Link the thread, or the quote. In the meantime, I'm going to take the game's word over yours.
Actually, I can state w/out hesitation that we were chosen by the Maker. BioWare chose the protagonist, barring specific details, and they are the Maker, so Cass is right. Then you can solve the whole debate: Link the thread, or the quote. In the meantime, I'm going to take the game's word over yours.
Oh, your rationale is nonsense. Well, in that case, sure, absolutely anything is possible.
Oh, your rationale is nonsense. Well, in that case, sure, absolutely anything is possible.
It was supposed to be kinda funny. It's actually where my brain automatically went every time NPCs threw the "Chosen One" at me when I was adamantly denying it Inquisitor.
Except Barris never actually does anything if you conscript.
Sucks to be you, then.
anyway, Bioware canon is that the mages are 'saved'
so that's saying something
anyway, Bioware canon is that the mages are 'saved'
so that's saying something
Default does not equal canon. Still, Asunder should be a pretty obviously show that Bioware is pro-mage. Heck, with Weekes in charge, I expect that to be more obvious.
*facepalm*
The scientific method is by far the most unbiased and human-idiocy proof tool conceived because regardless of what human A thinks, reality will make experiment X give result Y every time and support human B's theory if such theory actually describes why phenomena X is explained by Y.
Reality is as it is regardless of human interpretation, it is precisely because the scientific method is a rigorous empirical observation reflecting the physical laws imposed by reality that makes it inherently superior to religion as a source of knowledge.
It was the scientific-method tested Standard Model (Quantum Physics, Particle-Wave Duality, Heisenberg Uncertainty, etc...) which allowed us to build computers and cellphones, it was Molecular Chemistry which allowed us to create fuels and polymers used to make cars and airplanes and it was the Theory of Evolution (including later driven discoveries such as DNA) which proved that every human being was fundamentally identical at the nanoscopic level thus discrediting all delusions about the White Man's Burden.
Which modern confort or racial equitative measure did the Bible, the Quran, the Torah or whichever else religious source ever gave to humanity?
While there are twisted ideologies which try to cherry pick discoveries made through the scientific method to justify their views, the method itself quite easily dismantles their entire belief system because they don't follow empirical evidence to sustain each step of the construct.
By contrast, just amongs YHWH's religions, you have splits amongst Christians (Catholics, Evangelicals, Neo-Pentecoastals, etc..) and Muslims (Shia, Sunni, every Sunni school, etc...) which repeatedly caused bloody conflicts throughout history because neither divergent views could discredit the others through logical arguments.
Can you name any war which was caused on the basis of different academic interpretation of a scientifically proved theory?
Case in point, religion denies reality and evidence to assert iself which in turn allows for massive wars between indoctrinated intolerants to take place whereas Science humbly follows what reality and evidence imposes on her which in turn rewarded us with massive technological and social progress.
Whenever someone tries to put them on equal terms it always becomes a laughable example of why people without scientific education keeps holding our society back.
What does the silly religious and atheist fundamentalist arguments have to do with the topic of the thread?
Default does not equal canon. Still, Asunder should be a pretty obviously show that Bioware is pro-mage. Heck, with Weekes in charge, I expect that to be more obvious.
I don't think they are so much "pro-Mage" as they are anti-oppressive institutions. Mages aren't the only thing that the Chantry and Templars have repressed. I think the Mage/mundane/Templar dynamic is more subtle than Chantry/Templar VS, and I expect we will see more nuances of the concept if indeed DA4 takes place in Tevinter, where we will be, for the first time in-game, out of the White Chantry's influence.
anyway, Bioware canon is that the mages are 'saved'
so that's saying something
Never rely on the default word state.
What does the silly religious and atheist fundamentalist arguments have to do with the topic of the thread?
Nothing and they shouldn't be brought up again.
Agnosticism is the best thing there is, no one can say God or spirits actually exist or not because they don't manifest as any observable phenomena so it's not something which can be understood or used to favor any living and material being. I just saw enough evidence gathered through the scientific method to believe that every existing religion has absolutely no idea about what they are talking about and that humanity has better things to do than bickering about a bunch of mythological fables when God and the laws of nature are completely indiferent to their prayers.
Back on topic, the reason this derailment came to be is because certain people decided that what they think is more important than what evidence shows quite bluntly to make them wrong.
Stupid things like saying we didn't close the Breach twice when the Inquisitor screamed out of her lungs that "WE CLOSED THE BREACH TWICE AND MY OWN HANDS WANTS TO ****** KILL ME" just because the pattern in the sky twirled after you closed the Breach the first time.
Or even better, that the templar path is better than the mage one because aligning with the anti-mage faction who started the war and told the Inquisitor to **** off is the logical choice because they are trained to fight mages and demons. Nevermind that they never came close to defeating the numerically inferior mages for two years and failed to notice their leader was replaced by a demon.
So yeah, lets support the templars because they are better suited to fight the things they epically failed to defeat and mages can't fight enemy mages from a weakened faction that depended on their enthrallment to become relevant. INSANE TROLL LOGIC AT IT'S FINEST!
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