314 réponses à ce sujet

[BSpud]

Scientific progress has brought us the wonders of racially based discrimination, eugenics, social Darwinism, and so on.

 

Lol

[Dai Grepher]

"I admit my calculations were off by hundreds of miles per day and over a month when accounting for time... but you are the one who is wrong! You're arguing a losing point! Admit it!"

It's all the same to me Dai Grepher. You may continue proving me "wrong" for however long your capacity for embarrassment will allow.

That was not a serious calculation. That was a rough estimate. You wrote yourself that it was impossible to know the distance based on what little information we are given through Dagna's statement, yet you want to criticize the estimate for not being exact.

Well now I have done more research on the subject and also obtained evidence on how long it would take to get from Haven to Therinfal Redoubt based on Dagna's estimate. As before, your claim of "months" is wrong and I will prove it.

First off, we will assume for the sake of argument that Dagna's estimate is correct. We will assume a dwarven lady who has never even seen the surface can accurately estimate how long it takes to get from Orzammar to the Circle based on maps given to her by others. So assuming the maps are accurate, and assuming Dagna knows of all the normal means of transportation such as the best horses and boats (excluding hitching a ride on a High Dragon or something extreme like that), and assuming she charted her route to travel the Imperial Highway from Orzammar to the shore of Lake Calenhad west of the Circle where she would then take a boat to the island thus bypassing that long stretch of road around the northern part of the lake, then I have calculated that her route when overlapped with the route from Haven to Therinfal slightly less than four times.

Assuming it takes 17 days to reach the shore from Orzammar (land travel only), that means 17 days times 4 is 68 days. A month in Thedas is exactly 30 days. So this would be two months and eight days.

However, this is only an estimation based on Dagna's average rate of travel, her total trip time multiplied by four. The Herald's trip would actually be much shorter because most of his distance traveled is spent on the Imperial Highway that runs through level terrain. Most of Dagna's trip is spent on the highway that runs through mountainous terrain. Which means she would spend less days journeying over smooth terrain compared to the Herald. As a result, the Herald's journey would be four times the distance, but over terrain that allows for a faster rate of travel.

In the following illustrations the Herald would have 24 days on the red line (slower path) and 32 days green line (faster path), compared to Dagna having 12 days on the red line and only 5 days on the green line.

According to orbis.stanford.edu an average horse's distance traveled in one day is 34.8mi.

Assuming Dagna gets an above average and well conditioned horse, and pushes it to 40 miles per day, over mountainous terrain the horse would still only be able to do about 20 miles per day. Finding a place to ford a river or swim across deeper water, climbing over obstacles, going uphill, or just avoiding hazards will all take miles off your day. Dagna would likely only face hazardous slopes in the road and possibly cliffs where she would have to take it slow so as not to fall off.

Here is the calculation I am using, found by someone else who calculates distances on real maps and fantasy maps for writing purposes. Credit to "fifty" for the info.

http://www.cartograp...ll=1#post193881
 

..anyway this is the list of distances (in miles per day) I've come up with from a variety of sources that I shall be using personally:

On Roads / trails
Level or rolling terrain: 40
Hilly terrain: 30
Mountainous terrain: 20

Off-Road (or unkempt trails etc)
Level/rolling grasslands: 30
Hilly grasslands: 25
Level/rolling forest/thick scrub: 20
Very hilly forest/thick scrub: 15

Un-blazed Mountain passes: 10
Marshland: 10

The underlined numbers will be relevant to this discussion.

I have Dagna's path being 12 days on the mountainous road (Gherlen's Pass) at 20 miles per day, and 5 days on the level or rolling terrain road at 40 miles per day. I illustrate this on the following map...

Orzammar to Shore illustration: https://lh3.googleus...eG=w646-h319-no

The blue cross is Orzammar's location, according to the Dragon Age 2 Official Player's Guide as well as other map sources, Orzammar is directly north of the second small lake west of Gherlen's Pass. There is a gap between Orzammar and the Imperial Highway that runs through Gherlen's Pass. This may slow Dagna down, but I will credit her as moving over this unpaved terrain as she would if the road reached all the way to Orzammar. If this unpaved stretch takes her longer, then the total distance is shorter, thus more in favor of the Herald.

Each light-blue dot marks the end of one day's journey (or conclusion of the entire journey where indicated). The red and green lines from Dagna's route were copy/pasted and cut various times into pieces to fit the Herald's path. The end points marking the end of each day of travel were copy/pasted from Dagna's route, either from the red path for slower terrain, or the green path for faster terrain. The points were placed the same distance from each other to account for accuracy by rotating the following point around the previous point as an anchor until it fit the Herald's path.

So...

Dagna's Calculation
Orz to Highway
Terrain: On Roads / trails - Mountainous terrain: 20
20 mi per day.
Est 12 days.
= 240mi

Terrain: On Roads / trails - Level or rolling terrain: 40
40 mi per day Highway to lake shore.
Est 5 days.
= 200mi

Total: 440mi

Multiplied by 4 = 1,760mi

The Herald's journey is a little less than the full four, but 1,760mi is a decent estimate.

Now let's assume that the Herald travels at Dagna's pace, which she estimates is the fastest possible time in her region.

The Herald's Journey

Haven to Highway
Terrain: On Roads / trails - Mountainous terrain: 20
20 mi per day.
Est 6 days.
= 120mi

Highway to Redcliffe
Terrain: On Roads / trails - Level or rolling terrain: 40
40 mi per day.
Est 9 days.
= 360mi

Haven to Redcliffe illustration: https://lh3.googleus...sx=w451-h349-no

Redcliffe to Lothering
Terrain: On Roads / trails - Level or rolling terrain: 40
40 mi per day.
Est 13 days.
= 520mi

Redcliffe to Lothering illustration: https://lh3.googleus...AC=w596-h264-no

Lothering to Southron Hills
Terrain: On Roads / trails - Level or rolling terrain: 40
40 mi per day.
Est 11 days.
= 440mi

Lothering to Southron Hills illustration: https://lh3.googleus...Hv=w524-h339-no

Southron Hills to Therinfal Redoubt
Terrain: Off-Road (or unkempt trails etc) - Level/rolling forest/thick scrub: 20
20 mi per day.
Est 17.5 days.
= 350mi

Southron Hills to Therinfal illustration: https://lh3.googleus...8c=w447-h321-no

Total: 1,790mi over 56.5 days at Dagna's rate.

So if Dagna calculated the fastest rate of travel in her region, then the Herald matching her pace over his own bad and good terrains would put him at Therinfal Redoubt in 56.5 days. He would be arriving at Therinfal in the afternoon, which seems to be the correct time of day in-game.

This is less than the "months" you claimed, and this is with Dagna's journey being as quick as possible for her, and as long as possible for the Herald. I assumed worse terrain out of Haven and into Therinfal, but this could possibly be better terrain in which case his time is shorter.

This is also assuming Therinfal Redoubt is that far away from the Imperial Highway, which it probably isn't. I'm just going off what DA:I's chore table map (inaccurate map) displays. Notice that Redcliffe Castle's quest marker is also set further southeast than where it should be geographically (on an island in the lake).

This is also assuming that Dagna took a boat, and did not go all the way around the northern shore of the lake. And of course this is assuming Dagna is correct, when in reality this figure was likely just something random that some BioWare filler writer pulled directly from his butt in order to stress the point that Dagna is obsessed with getting to the Circle.

So even with all the factors working in your favor Baconer, the Herald can still get to Therinfal in under two months even at Dagna's fastest pace. So your claim is wrong.

However, to take this further, you might have noticed yellow dots marking some of the ends of each day's journey. This is to mark the fastest possible time of the Herald, and all the resources available to him.

He has access to Master Denet's horses, multiple Inquisition camps, various towns/bannorns/arlings from Rainesfere, to Redcliffe, to Lothering, to South Reach and any unknown village in-between. Dagna on the other hand only had Gherlen's Pass and the lake shore. Her journey would require her to take enough food for the horse to make the journey. The Herald can travel light and restock at various camps and towns. His path is populated with civilization. Dagna's path is remote and isolated.

As such I would also like to point out that the Herald's access to Master Denet's horses could include those that can travel longer distances than even above average horses. In the real world, the Arabian Horse competes in the Tevis Cup, which is a 100 mile race over mountainous terrain, and the average completion time is 17 hours.

The Arabian Horse's top distance in 17 hours is 100 miles over mountainous terrain. Which means this is approximately 80mi per 13.5 hours. That's 80mi per 1 day for every 4 of Dagna's days on Mountainous Highway.

Also consider the Pony Express, in which the top distance traveled in one day was 250 miles. Riders accomplished this by riding their horses for roughly 30 miles to checkpoint stations, and then switching horses. So figure 240 miles per day = 6 of Dagna's days on the highway. Or, 120 miles in a half day = 3 of Dagna's days on the highway. The Inquisition scouts and troops could easily be given word ahead of time to take horses to certain checkpoints outside their various towns or camps and await the Herald and company to arrive.

So the yellow dots represent the fastest Herald (without running the horses into the grave)...

Day 1: 80mi mid-point Haven to Highway with long distance horses.

Day 2: 40mi to Highway, 1st half with long distance horses. 120mi on Highway 2nd half with faster horses that travel less distance.

Day 3: 240mi Highway to Redcliffe. Faster horses with less distance from here until Southron Hills.

Day 4: 240mi Redcliffe to mid-point toward Lothering.

Day 5: 240mi to mid-point to Lothering.

Day 6: 240mi Lothering to mid-point toward Southron Hills.

Day 7: 240mi mid-point to Southron Hills.

Day 8: 80mi toward Therinfal Redoubt. Back to long distance horses from here to Therinfal Redoubt.

Day 9: 80mi toward Therinfal Redoubt.

Day 10: 80mi toward Therinfal Redoubt.

Day 11: 80mi toward Therinfal Redoubt.

Day 12: 30mi toward Therinfal Redoubt, 1st half of day, arrival at noon.

Total travel time: 11.5 days

Total distance traveled: 1,790 miles

So again, even with all factors working against the Herald, it is possible for the mission to take days, not months.

[The Baconer]

So even with all the factors working in your favor Baconer, the Herald can still get to Therinfal in under two months even at Dagna's fastest pace. So your claim is wrong.

 

So the Inquisitor can arrive in 1.8 months. In regards to my original claim, I am wholly unperturbed.

 

Even with that in mind, we are ignoring one important factor in the Orlesian noble families, who will all be traveling with their own retinues. Even if the Inquisitor manages the impressive 11 day journey to the fortress, it amounts to nothing when it only leads to more time spent waiting around  for the families to arrive. This was definitely not worth the homework. 

[Dai Grepher]

So the Inquisitor can arrive in 1.8 months. In regards to my original claim, I am wholly unperturbed.
 
Even with that in mind, we are ignoring one important factor in the Orlesian noble families, who will all be traveling with their own retinues. Even if the Inquisitor manages the impressive 11 day journey to the fortress, it amounts to nothing when it only leads to more time spent waiting around  for the families to arrive. This was definitely not worth the homework.

Except that the mere 10 Orlesian houses are likely already in Ferelden at the time and arrive at Therinfal ahead of the Herald.

[The Baconer]

Except that the mere 10 Orlesian houses are likely already in Ferelden at the time and arrive at Therinfal ahead of the Herald.

 

Neither of those assumptions are confirmed with any certainty, no. 

[Dai Grepher]

Yep. Marquis DuRellion is Orlesian and you see him in Haven at the start of the game. He's married to Lady Machen of Denerim. There are plenty of Orlesian nobles in Ferelden who have estates or marriages, such as Isolde to Eamon. And besides that, there are those who are staying in Ferelden because they came to witness the peace talks at the conclave. So it's a certainty that the Orlesian nobles were already in Ferelden at the time.

Also, Abernache is already waiting for you at Therinfal when you arrive, and there are plenty of Orlesians ahead of you at Therinfal already.

[Phoe77]

It's not like the Inquisition just chose the closest available Orlesian nobles for that outing.  The whole point was to assemble a delegation that was too influential for the Lord Seeker or anyone else to ignore.  It seems more reasonable to believe that the ten most powerful noble families of Orlais are based in and around Val Royeaux than in the Ferelden countryside.

 

It definitely is certain that there are Orlesian nobles in Ferelden, but we certainly don't know that the ones that were assembled for Champions of the Just are among them.  

[In Exile]

It's not like the Inquisition just chose the closest available Orlesian nobles for that outing.  The whole point was to assemble a delegation that was too influential for the Lord Seeker or anyone else to ignore.  It seems more reasonable to believe that the ten most powerful noble families of Orlais are based in and around Val Royeaux than in the Ferelden countryside.

 

It definitely is certain that there are Orlesian nobles in Ferelden, but we certainly don't know that the ones that were assembled for Champions of the Just are among them.  

 

That's probably unreasonable. It's more likely that these families are spread throughout Orlais, with various holdings and estates. Maybe they are all in Val Royeaux, but there's no reason to assume they are all in Val Royeaux. 

[The Baconer]

Yep. Marquis DuRellion is Orlesian and you see him in Haven at the start of the game. He's married to Lady Machen of Denerim. There are plenty of Orlesian nobles in Ferelden who have estates or marriages, such as Isolde to Eamon. And besides that, there are those who are staying in Ferelden because they came to witness the peace talks at the conclave. So it's a certainty that the Orlesian nobles were already in Ferelden at the time.

Also, Abernache is already waiting for you at Therinfal when you arrive, and there are plenty of Orlesians ahead of you at Therinfal already.

 

We know of one individual in Haven, yes, but the Inquisition is looking for some of Orlais' most renowned families, not scattered individuals like Isolde. There is absolutely no certainty that the nobles who came along with us were already staying in Ferelden. 

 

All the cutscene shows is the Inquisitor and a collection of aristocrats approaching a gatehouse before the Redoubt. That Abernache and some other dude were hanging around on the bridge ahead of the group doesn't mean the nobles beat the Inquisitor to the Redoubt. It wouldn't even make sense for them to beat us to the Redoubt.  

[straykat]

Funnily, I like the Templar story, but also like Divine Leli. I haven't played this way, but kind of want to. The Templars sort of become a wandering group of do-gooders (instead of Circle guardians), and without Lyrium or Seekers rebuilt, I feel like this is the most mundane victory I could possibly have. I'd have free mages from Leli, but normal people (Templars) would be taking care of any problems rising up. No Fade stuff, no wonky substance to combat future problems. It might sound like the most risky ending, but it's the most "natural" one to me (as far as nature goes in this setting).

 

I suppose it depends on how much faith you have in normal people.

[Dai Grepher]

It's not like the Inquisition just chose the closest available Orlesian nobles for that outing.  The whole point was to assemble a delegation that was too influential for the Lord Seeker or anyone else to ignore.

Describe "too influential to ignore". Maybe it overlaps with "closest available".

It seems more reasonable to believe that the ten most powerful noble families of Orlais are based in and around Val Royeaux than in the Ferelden countryside.

OR... that out of all the most powerful families of Orlais, there just happens to be at least one representative from ten of those families visiting Ferelden. This makes sense, because out of all the Orlesian families there are, only the most influential ones would be able to visit Ferelden in the first place. Yes? Similar to how Bryce Cousland was influential enough to visit Orlais a month before the events of Origins.

It definitely is certain that there are Orlesian nobles in Ferelden, but we certainly don't know that the ones that were assembled for Champions of the Just are among them.

Well Abernache confirms that 10 families are there. That's proof enough, isn't it?

Consider this possibility. There are roughly 100 noble families in Orlais (just as an example). 25 of the most influential families have at least one family member in Ferelden. Of those 25, 10 of them are close enough to Therinfal to lend a hand. Makes sense, right?

Now logically, most of these family members would not be staying at Haven, which is basically in the middle of a wasteland (unless they are devout or something like that). They wouldn't stay at Redcliffe either. They would likely only be at either Highever, Waking Sea, Amaranthine, Denerim, South Reach (which is an arling), or possibly some other bannorn or arling we haven't heard of yet that the Orlesians would find tolerable. Mmmmaybe Gwaren. So Highever and Amaranthine are too far. Denerim might work. South Reach is near Therinfal, and there could be other bannorns and arling in the Southron Hills. And Gwaren might work.

So these Orlesians would be guests at these close locations, receive word from the Inquisition, and agree to help.

We know of one individual in Haven, yes, but the Inquisition is looking for some of Orlais' most renowned families, not scattered individuals like Isolde. There is absolutely no certainty that the nobles who came along with us were already staying in Ferelden.

We don't need certainty, just the possibility. And it is possible. The fact that they show up at Therinfal is confirmation enough. DeRellion's wife, although Fereldan, could still wear her husband's crest and present on behalf of the DuRellion family. So even if the Marquis is stuck in Haven, his wife can make the trip for him and it would count as that noble family being represented at the meeting.

All the cutscene shows is the Inquisitor and a collection of aristocrats approaching a gatehouse before the Redoubt. That Abernache and some other dude were hanging around on the bridge ahead of the group doesn't mean the nobles beat the Inquisitor to the Redoubt. It wouldn't even make sense for them to beat us to the Redoubt.

It would if they were closer to it than the Herald was. Abernache was waiting at the front gate, which means he was there before the Herald, and there are plenty of nobles far ahead at the actual castle who look as though they have been there speaking to some templars already. It's logical that the Herald approached Therinfal Redoubt immediately upon arrival. He would not have kept the nobles waiting if he had been there before them.

[The Baconer]

We don't need certainty, just the possibility. And it is possible. The fact that they show up at Therinfal is confirmation enough. 

 

No, that doesn't follow at all. 

 

Abernache himself isn't someone who would already be in Ferelden. 

 

 

It would if they were closer to it than the Herald was. Abernache was waiting at the front gate, which means he was there before the Herald, and there are plenty of nobles far ahead at the actual castle who look as though they have been there speaking to some templars already. It's logical that the Herald approached Therinfal Redoubt immediately upon arrival. He would not have kept the nobles waiting if he had been there before them.

 

Why would ten of the most esteemed noble families in Orlais be closer to Therinfal Redoubt than the Inquisitor? Again, a bunch of individuals who married into Ferelden holdings are not the make of esteemed Orlesian families. 

[straykat]

It took me awhile to realize what you guys were even talking about.

 

Your dispute is that Orlesian families are in Southern Ferelden so quickly? I guess that's fair. I wouldn't say it's the better story, as the OP, does. I like them both about equally.

 

If it was up to me though, half of the game would have been about mages and templars. Not some small mission tied to a completely different plot. They both kinda suck just for that alone. And that's a problem with both ME and DA.. they promote this whole "import" idea about story continuation potential, but in the end, they just keep making games that can be jumped into easily by noobs. Actually having a better look at the mage/templar war is too much for them to handle or something.

[Phoe77]

That's probably unreasonable. It's more likely that these families are spread throughout Orlais, with various holdings and estates. Maybe they are all in Val Royeaux, but there's no reason to assume they are all in Val Royeaux. 

 

All I meant is that it's more likely that those families would be more likely to be located primarily in Orlais than in Ferelden.  When I said "in and around Val Royeaux", I meant throughout Orlais.

[Phoe77]

 

 

OR... that out of all the most powerful families of Orlais, there just happens to be at least one representative from ten of those families visiting Ferelden. This makes sense, because out of all the Orlesian families there are, only the most influential ones would be able to visit Ferelden in the first place. Yes? Similar to how Bryce Cousland was influential enough to visit Orlais a month before the events of Origins. 

 

If they're so influential, then how the empress never saw fit to address the Marquise's claim on Haven?  It's ridiculous to assume that only influential Orlesian nobles would be able to visit Ferelden or vice versa.  There is, to my knowledge, no ban on travel between the two countries, despite their lukewarm opinions of each other.

 

I also find it unlikely that those families would be content to send a distant relative to represent their interests in the meeting.  Abernache himself makes a big deal out of the fact that Barris is a second son and therefore not born to diplomacy with nobles such as himself.

[In Exile]

All I meant is that it's more likely that those families would be more likely to be located primarily in Orlais than in Ferelden. When I said "in and around Val Royeaux", I meant throughout Orlais.

I know. Tongue was firmly in cheek.

[Dai Grepher]

No, that doesn't follow at all. 
 
Abernache himself isn't someone who would already be in Ferelden.

If they are at Therinfal (and they are), then it follows that they were able to make the journey to Therinfal. If Dagna's estimate is correct, and the mileage is correct, then it follows that they must have been close.

The alternative is that they were all in Orlais and it took them roughly a year to get to Therinfal since their journey would be of ridiculous length and their rate of travel would be arduously slow. They would also have to take Dagna's path through Gherlen's Pass. Unless they went by ship through the Waking Sea and then down the eastern coast. Either way, I don't see that journey being made in anything short of a year, if at all (the nobles might not bother themselves with it).

And why wouldn't Abernache already be in Ferelden? He seemed familiar with Ser Barris' Fereldan family. Perhaps it is his role to meet various Fereldan freeholders and supply the Empress with information on Ferelden's wealth. Perhaps he is the kind to make deals with various freeholders. Josephine does warn you to sign nothing he offers.
 

Why would ten of the most esteemed noble families in Orlais be closer to Therinfal Redoubt than the Inquisitor? Again, a bunch of individuals who married into Ferelden holdings are not the make of esteemed Orlesian families.

Because the Herald only has Haven as a base of operations, while the Orlesian nobles have surrounding bannorns and arlings to stay at.

DuRellion was just an example of an Orlesian who was present in Ferelden. So that proves it is possible that other Orlesians were in Ferelden as well. Not claiming any of the ten families had a Fereldan family member representing them there, but this would not be beyond the realm of possibility, and even thought they would not be the embodiment of Orlais, they would at least count as representatives of those particular Orlesian houses.

One more thing... and I know you'll probably think "typical Dai Grepher" or whatever... but now that you know the general distance calculation between locations in Ferelden, or at least the fact that you think the distance between Haven and Therinfal Redoubt would take "months" or even weeks on horseback...
 

Spoiler

Do you really still believe the Triumvirate approved Dragon's Breath and planned to conquer all of Ferelden and Orlais with the Anntam after Viddasalla blew up a few key locations and assassinated a few top nobles? I mean really. They were going to travel all that distance with what few forces they had and face miles and miles of Ferelden soldiers? Really? All those towns and bannorns full of people capable of fighting? They were going to spread across all those lands? Seriously? You think that was a legitimate operation that the Triumvirate approved of let alone knew about? Viddasala wasn't just some nutcase acting on her own? Really?

If they're so influential, then how the empress never saw fit to address the Marquise's claim on Haven?

Josephine states that the Marquis would have to get Celene to recognize it. So he probably hasn't done so yet. Also, Celene had bigger problems at that time, like not getting killed. Also, DuRellion's position or property has nothing to do with the Orlesian nobles we see at Therinfal.
 

It's ridiculous to assume that only influential Orlesian nobles would be able to visit Ferelden or vice versa.  There is, to my knowledge, no ban on travel between the two countries, despite their lukewarm opinions of each other.

The more influential ones would be able to appeal to lords and ladies in Ferelden to give them safe lodging and food. A trip to Ferelden is likely expensive, which only the rich would be able to afford. Some Orlesian nobles may also have family in Ferelden, or relation to Banns or Arls (like Isolde's marriage to Eamon), and thus they would have estates they could stay at while visiting.
 

I also find it unlikely that those families would be content to send a distant relative to represent their interests in the meeting.  Abernache himself makes a big deal out of the fact that Barris is a second son and therefore not born to diplomacy with nobles such as himself.

Well, if their family members are the only ones close enough to attend, then they would have no choice, would they? And I doubt most of them would want to have their family's head to attend the meeting anyway, since it is a risk. Abernache may have been the head of his family, but if so, he attended because he saw it as an opportunity for himself.

As for his dismissal of "second sons", first you have to realize that Abernache was there to make the templars feel as if they were beneath the nobility, and that they needed their recognition in order to be worthy of respect. He had also just been ignored by Barris when he didn't even bother to hear Abernache's name announced. So it was a dig back at Barris. It might not be that Abernache has any problem with secondary heirs, except that they aren't first to inherit. He might not mind them representing their families though.

[The Baconer]

If they are at Therinfal (and they are), then it follows that they were able to make the journey to Therinfal. If Dagna's estimate is correct, and the mileage is correct, then it follows that they must have been close.

The alternative is that they were all in Orlais and it took them roughly a year to get to Therinfal since their journey would be of ridiculous length and their rate of travel would be arduously slow. They would also have to take Dagna's path through Gherlen's Pass. Unless they went by ship through the Waking Sea and then down the eastern coast. Either way, I don't see that journey being made in anything short of a year, if at all (the nobles might not bother themselves with it).

 

The Templars themselves made that trip, which would have been even slower given that they were the largest organized army of Templars at the time. Has over a year passed by the time we return to Haven from Val Royeaux, in order to discuss them staying at Therinfal? 

 

And why wouldn't Abernache already be in Ferelden? He seemed familiar with Ser Barris' Fereldan family. Perhaps it is his role to meet various Fereldan freeholders and supply the Empress with information on Ferelden's wealth. Perhaps he is the kind to make deals with various freeholders. Josephine does warn you to sign nothing he offers.

 

His war table mission (should he survive) is based out of Orlais. He also met Vivienne at an Orlesian ball. 

 

 

Because the Herald only has Haven as a base of operations, while the Orlesian nobles have surrounding bannorns and arlings to stay at.

 

Why would that be the case? Fereldens don't like Orlesians. They don't like Isolde, DuRellion's claim to Haven is considered shaky at best due to his nationality. 

 

 

One more thing... and I know you'll probably think "typical Dai Grepher" or whatever... but now that you know the general distance calculation between locations in Ferelden, or at least the fact that you think the distance between Haven and Therinfal Redoubt would take "months" or even weeks on horseback.

 

"Typical Dai Grepher" was indeed my first thought, but yes. Occupation and pacification is always going to be a long process, and the Qunari know it. They are also fully committed to that regardless of how it may be applied, be it a plan like Dragon's Breath or a more conventional invasion. 

 

Also, Ferelden makes an exceedingly poor example. They are completely impotent throughout the entire timeline of Inquisition, and this was before the Dragon's Breath attack. "Miles and miles" of Ferelden soldiers don't exist. 

[KaiserShep]

Do you really still believe the Triumvirate approved Dragon's Breath and planned to conquer all of Ferelden and Orlais with the Anntam after Viddasalla blew up a few key locations and assassinated a few top nobles? I mean really. They were going to travel all that distance with what few forces they had and face miles and miles of Ferelden soldiers? Really? All those towns and bannorns full of people capable of fighting? They were going to spread across all those lands? Seriously? You think that was a legitimate operation that the Triumvirate approved of let alone knew about? Viddasala wasn't just some nutcase acting on her own? Really?

 

 

Don't forget potentially controlling a magical superhighway that those fops and doglords would catch their asses tracking down. In any case, why not? What would they have to lose? The Qunari can provide the Viddasala and her rather sizable group the resources they need to learn all they can about the eluvians, Solas and his allies, all the while denying through their teeth and maintain plausible deniability. Though honestly, is it really plausible? They can claim that they didn't approve of the Arishok's actions in Kirkwall, but there's an obvious pattern forming. Anyway, at worst, she fails and they can claim it was a fringe group that went on an unsanctioned mission, and at best, she succeeds in at least wiping out the Inquisition and the rebel elf that caused the breach in the first place and they reap the benefits. They would certainly not complain if she actually accomplished what she set out to do. Of course, they ended up being way out of their depth on that last one, but I suppose there's points gained for trying.

[Dai Grepher]

The Templars themselves made that trip, which would have been even slower given that they were the largest organized army of Templars at the time. Has over a year passed by the time we return to Haven from Val Royeaux, in order to discuss them staying at Therinfal?

Well clearly not since the game developers say it couldn't have been. Although someone using Dagna's estimate might argue otherwise.

In any case, if the templars can get to Therinfal from Val Royeaux in good time, then the Orlesian nobles can in better time since they would be traveling lighter. And like I wrote, if they can't, then all it means is the nobles were already closer to Therinfal to begin with.

His war table mission (should he survive) is based out of Orlais. He also met Vivienne at an Orlesian ball.

And this means he can't travel?

Why would that be the case? Fereldens don't like Orlesians. They don't like Isolde, DuRellion's claim to Haven is considered shaky at best due to his nationality.

His claim is shaky because it's through marriage, but as to how Fereldans feel about Orlesians, there has been an ongoing effort to improve peace between the two nations ever since Cailan ruled. An exchange of culture between nobles would be common, as was the case with Bryce going to Orlais before Origins, and Teagan going to Orlais in Masked Empire.

"Typical Dai Grepher" was indeed my first thought, but yes. Occupation and pacification is always going to be a long process, and the Qunari know it. They are also fully committed to that regardless of how it may be applied, be it a plan like Dragon's Breath or a more conventional invasion.

Committed, no doubt. Capable though?

Also, Ferelden makes an exceedingly poor example. They are completely impotent throughout the entire timeline of Inquisition, and this was before the Dragon's Breath attack. "Miles and miles" of Ferelden soldiers don't exist.

Impotent or indifferent? They just didn't have all that much involvement. But those Qunari sure were impotent. The whole lot of them were destroyed by anywhere between 1 to 4 people.

But I think my only point was that this is a lot of ground to cover. Did the Qunari really have the forces for that?

Don't forget potentially controlling a magical superhighway that those fops and doglords would catch their asses tracking down.

Um... what?

In any case, why not? What would they have to lose? The Qunari can provide the Viddasala and her rather sizable group the resources they need to learn all they can about the eluvians, Solas and his allies, all the while denying through their teeth and maintain plausible deniability.

Eh, except when Ferelden or Orlais start cutting down Ben-Hassrath like grass, they will assume the Qunari have broken the Llomeryn Accords and join Tevinter in destroying Par Vollen.

[The Night Haunter]

So I'm playing Inquisition again after a long hiatus, and I have to say, it doesn't make much sense to me to even bother with the mages when it comes to forging alliances.

 

For one, the entire crux of the Mage/Templar war is that mages don't want to go back to the circle system and feel the templars are out of control, and the templars feeling that the mages have too much freedom and need to be put under more restrictions.

 

Siding with the mages doesn't accomplish anything in this initial breakdown, because the templars are still the lawful authority of the land who need to be persuaded against extremist actions and draconian restrictions, at least from the mages point of view. The templars are additionally the ones who are serving as the aggressors in this war, by that I mean the majority of the conflicts are templars going in to enforce the law, and mages responding with force. It doesn't seem likely that there are bands of marauding mages going around attacking templar encampments and such.

 

Bringing the templars under the power of the Inquisition not only allows the inquisition to have a nice bargining chip with the Mages, it also allows reforms to take place much quickly, thus resolving what the mages were rebelling about in the first place and removing one of the main reasons for their rebellion.

 

That's the practical side of things, story structure wise, here's why it's better.

 

Corypheus wants to bring tevinter into a new golden age, and make what is essentially a mage run paradise on thedas with him as god. Him going to the mages to turn them into his ideal form of mage makes sense, since he's such an ******* about mages being better then people. The entire plot unfolding with the Templars as well, from the intervention of Cole to the saving the order from self imploding to the characters involved, are all extremely well writen as well. Even the Envy demon is an extremely interesting boss battle as well as character.

 

Now let's compare that to the mage angle, which required time travel to explain away half of its plot points, and revolves around a character who does nothing but get in the way, and not even because of bad intentions, just because they suck at their jobs. Maybe its just me, but I don't think a plot should require time travel shinnanigans to hold its main storyline together, IE stopping the venatori from being dicks with time machines.

 

Additionally, I would argue that Calpernia makes a much more interesting villian than nothing templar Samson. A new character from tevinter who breaks the caste system and turns against her master, VS a jobber from the previous game who just did what he did for the lolz and the edge.

 

Overall, I think the story writers had 1 path they really wanted the story to go. And that was the inquisition saving the templar order, and as many mages as it can. Not the other way around.

I came in expecting a Templar gush and Mage hate thread, and what I found was well reasoned, thematic, and interesting arguments. I approve.

 

My original DAI run did the mage route (I can see the arguments for all of the options, free mages, return to circles, something in the middle), but the one my first character approved of was free the mages. That quest was a whole lot of fun and I loved it to bits. That said I do wish I had more opportunity to save Templars (there are a few Operations were you can get Templars to join up). The Templar path (disbanding the order and inducting Templars into the Inquisition) seems the best path long term anyway. If you want free mages, then controlling the Templars is how you do it. If you want a return to the Circles then by controlling the Templars you hold that power. The Templars make less sense against the breach, but more sense in fighting Cory (imo).

[Cainhurst Crow]

This thread isn't locked yet? Jezz these mods really don't do their jobs.

[sniper_arrow]

This thread isn't locked yet? Jezz these mods really don't do their jobs.

 

Based on what?

[Dabrikishaw]

Based on what?

He probably thinks the other posters broke several forum rules.

[KaiserShep]

Um... what?Eh, except when Ferelden or Orlais start cutting down Ben-Hassrath like grass, they will assume the Qunari have broken the Llomeryn Accords and join Tevinter in destroying Par Vollen.

Cutting down Ben-Hassrath? Sure, if they can spot them. More than likely, it'll result in a greater level of indiscriminate abuse of city elves, while human qunari freely observe. Join Tevinter? You have more faith in Thedosians than I do. At any rate, it's my belief that the qunari feel the situation is desperate because of Solas, who they probably feel is too great a threat to ignore, but can't trust the southerners to help, because their organizations have been infiltrated.