314 réponses à ce sujet

[BSpud]

I find IHW far more satisfying and "fitting" for MY continuity, and though I like to take jabs at the hardcore CotJ evangelists (they go a little too far as evidenced by the OP, imo), I honestly do not begrudge people who prefer the Templar path. I definitely appreciate the upsides of that choice (particularly Calpernia, even though it's pretty much a cliche to point that out at this point). What tends to stick in my craw are the "this is what the devs preferred" and "time travel is automatically a bad storytelling device" arguments.

 

In the end, I echo the sentiment of those who think both paths should NOT have been mutually exclusive. At least, Samson and Calpernia should have remained as co-existing mini-bosses along with their respective quests.

[Ghost Gal]

It's all subjective. Some feel the Templars are better, some feel the mages are better, but it's pure arrogance to think yours alone is "objectively" better or more story relevant.

[nightscrawl]

Personally, I generally go for the mages because the game seems clearly geared toward following the Redcliffe plot thread, since we get much more exposition into the situation at Redcliffe, whereas whatever is going on at Therinfal Redoubt is a total mystery. For all we know they could just be having a big Templar orgy and holing up waiting for the world to fix itself. The only introduction we have into the Templar plot is basically potatoface Lucius puffing up in your face and telling everyone to screw off, thus exceeding my capacity to distribute f*cks to give. That this gaggle of lyrium-chugging magicops is being hostile and dismissive, save for one underling feebly pleading and ultimately failing gives me little reason to think of anything beyond:

 

 

And I'm supposed to want to bend over backwards to convince these guys to help me? As if. 

 

I appreciate that the game has a substantial quest that's mutually exclusive, allowing for a different experience, but I feel that the story doesn't provide me, or rather my protagonist, with enough incentive to care to go see them when a stronger opportunity presents itself much earlier. 

 

I just love everything about this post, right down to the Tombstone gif.

 

I generally feel the same about the Templar path. After some thinking, I was able to come up with a suitable enough RP reason (for myself) so I could actually play through it. Sadly, I never completed that game so I've never seen the culmination of the Calpernia storyline. I figure I've got a while before DA4 to finally get around to it...

 

As I've said elsewhere, to me the most unfortunate thing in having to choose one from the other is the exclusivity in the Dorian and Cole content. Even though I prefer Dorian generally, it is the only time in the game that the player, and their character, gets to experience Cole doing his thing on a personal level. Sure, you can ask him later on, "What do I feel like to you?" but I don't feel that that has the same impact. The In Hushed Whispers player can only experience him vicariously though other people, mostly through party banter.

[Dai Grepher]

Templars are objectively better and more story relevant.

 

If you go to Redcliffe, you essentially lose the entire game. Period.

[BSpud]

Templars are objectively better and more story relevant.

 

If you go to Redcliffe, you essentially lose the entire game. Period.

 

And here we go.

[thesuperdarkone2]

Templars are objectively better and more story relevant.

 

If you go to Redcliffe, you essentially lose the entire game. Period.

Congrats on being a perfect example of what BSpud was talking about. No evidence, no acknowledgement of the facts supporting the mages.

 

Seriously, the fanatic pro-templars are just getting silly. Funny how my counterargument is getting more support. Guess we know who people think has better support

[Witch Cocktor]

Seriously, the fanatic pro-templars are just getting silly.

Please, you are the most fanatic pro-mage person I've ever seen in this forum. You are about as bad as them.

 

There is no right choice, and there is no better choice between mages and templars.

[thesuperdarkone2]

Please, you are the most fanatic pro-mage person I've ever seen in this forum. You are about as bad as them.

 

There is no right choice, and there is no better choice between mages and templars.

Yet apparently you don't have a problem with a pro-templar making a thread saying the templars are factually better in every conceivable way. Sorry, but I smell double standards.

[Blood Mage Reaver]

ALERT! TROLLING SENSORS AT DANGEROUS LEVELS! DIRECT INTERVENTION IS NECESSARY!

[Dai Grepher]

And here we go.

 

 

No reason to go to Redcliffe. No reason to meet with Alexius. No reason to walk into a trap at the castle. No reason to risk yourself against time magic. No reason at all.

 

With templars you get to handle a problem within the ranks of the Chantry, Inquisition, and Templar Order. You are well within your jurisdiction. You also get to meet Lord Abernache and Ser Barris and hear their banter. Multiple ways to handle the mission, multiple outcomes. You save templars from being killed or corrupted. In Redcliffe it's as if nothing even happened! Need I go on?

 

You fight a demon with your brain. You can even outsmart it. Then you destroy it in the real world. Need I go on?

 

Your dialogue choices actually MATTER. Nothing you say in Redcliffe makes any difference. Leliana does what she wants.

 

Do I need to mention the fact that you can solo Therinfall? Do I need to mention that in Redcliffe you are FORCED to take Dorian and two other companions who just pop out of nowhere if you go alone?

 

Do I need to mention the fact that Redcliffe looks nothing like it did in Origins? Do I need to mention how Therinfall is a brand new area?

 

Need I go on?

 

Is it the fact that Connor's dialogue and death scene are bugged? Is it the fact that your companions keeping their armor and weapons while imprisoned makes no sense? Is it the fact they magically receive armor and weapons from the future even though they didn't go there? Need I go on?

 

In Therinfall you get to command your teammates in the great hall to defend the templars. You cannot tell your third and fourth mandatory companions how to respond to the demons and Venatori breaking in. None of the mages help you, other than Dorian. The templars actually HELP. They are useful.

 

Need I go on?

 

Better dialogue options in Therinfall, and better use of the Knowledge perks. More relevant to the story, especially a mage. Cole. The ability point bonuses. The awesome loot! Need I go on?

 

Need I go on? Because I can. The templar path is up here --->

 

The mage path is down here...

 

Spoiler

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And that's you if you took the mage path. You get puked on. Redcliffe was one big drainage pipe of red and green barf.

[Witch Cocktor]

Yet apparently you don't have a problem with a pro-templar making a thread saying the templars are factually better in every conceivable way. Sorry, but I smell double standards.

 

I read this thread as an opinion. I appreciated their point of views, but I disagree that it's the best route in narrative purposes. Because that's objective to me personally. So spare me the '' HUHUHUH, HYPOCRITE, DOUBLE STANDARDS '' drivel.

 

For a mage-lover, you should know that you should be using your staff to fight, not cramming it far up your arsehole.

[thesuperdarkone2]

 

No reason to go to Redcliffe. No reason to meet with Alexius. No reason to walk into a trap at the castle. No reason to risk yourself against time magic. No reason at all.

 

With templars you get to handle a problem within the ranks of the Chantry, Inquisition, and Templar Order. You are well within your jurisdiction. You also get to meet Lord Abernache and Ser Barris and hear their banter. Multiple ways to handle the mission, multiple outcomes. You save templars from being killed or corrupted. In Redcliffe it's as if nothing even happened! Need I go on?

 

You fight a demon with your brain. You can even outsmart it. Then you destroy it in the real world. Need I go on?

 

Your dialogue choices actually MATTER. Nothing you say in Redcliffe makes any difference. Leliana does what she wants.

 

Do I need to mention the fact that you can solo Therinfall? Do I need to mention that in Redcliffe you are FORCED to take Dorian and two other companions who just pop out of nowhere if you go alone?

 

Do I need to mention the fact that Redcliffe looks nothing like it did in Origins? Do I need to mention how Therinfall is a brand new area?

 

Need I go on?

 

Is it the fact that Connor's dialogue and death scene are bugged? Is it the fact that your companions keeping their armor and weapons while imprisoned makes no sense? Is it the fact they magically receive armor and weapons from the future even though they didn't go there? Need I go on?

 

In Therinfall you get to command your teammates in the great hall to defend the templars. You cannot tell your third and fourth mandatory companions how to respond to the demons and Venatori breaking in. None of the mages help you, other than Dorian. The templars actually HELP. They are useful.

 

Need I go on?

 

Better dialogue options in Therinfall, and better use of the Knowledge perks. More relevant to the story, especially a mage. Cole. The ability point bonuses. The awesome loot! Need I go on?

 

Need I go on? Because I can. The templar path is up here --->

 

The mage path is down here...

 

Spoiler

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And that's you if you took the mage path. You get puked on. Redcliffe was one big drainage pipe of red and green barf.

Not sure if troll or just stupid

[Mr Fixit]

I think a lot of this incessant Templars make more sense! No, mages make more sense! back-and-forth is really down to one thing. Namely, the lack of a Templar introductory quest, much like how you have the opportunity to go to Redcliffe, meet Dorian and Alexius, and generally get a solid grasp on the situation *before* needing to make up your mind. Unfortunately, there's nothing to this effect on the Templar side, leading many people to contend that BioWare basically pushed the mage quest down the players' throats. I personally don't agree with this interpretation and of course support the position of those people who believe that both options are valid and that both give you more or less solid RP reasons for choosing them. That said, I do think it might have been better to give us a bit more prior insight on the Templar side of things, a little introductory quest, or even an extended chain of convos with several relevant NPC (beside Lucius' ravings in Val Royeaux as they are hardly illuminating in any way.) Include something to that effect and I believe a lot of complaints go away.

[Blood Mage Reaver]

 

No reason to go to Redcliffe. No reason to meet with Alexius. No reason to walk into a trap at the castle. No reason to risk yourself against time magic. No reason at all.

 

With templars you get to handle a problem within the ranks of the Chantry, Inquisition, and Templar Order. You are well within your jurisdiction. You also get to meet Lord Abernache and Ser Barris and hear their banter. Multiple ways to handle the mission, multiple outcomes. You save templars from being killed or corrupted. In Redcliffe it's as if nothing even happened! Need I go on?

 

You fight a demon with your brain. You can even outsmart it. Then you destroy it in the real world. Need I go on?

 

Your dialogue choices actually MATTER. Nothing you say in Redcliffe makes any difference. Leliana does what she wants.

 

Do I need to mention the fact that you can solo Therinfall? Do I need to mention that in Redcliffe you are FORCED to take Dorian and two other companions who just pop out of nowhere if you go alone?

 

Do I need to mention the fact that Redcliffe looks nothing like it did in Origins? Do I need to mention how Therinfall is a brand new area?

 

Need I go on?

 

Is it the fact that Connor's dialogue and death scene are bugged? Is it the fact that your companions keeping their armor and weapons while imprisoned makes no sense? Is it the fact they magically receive armor and weapons from the future even though they didn't go there? Need I go on?

 

In Therinfall you get to command your teammates in the great hall to defend the templars. You cannot tell your third and fourth mandatory companions how to respond to the demons and Venatori breaking in. None of the mages help you, other than Dorian. The templars actually HELP. They are useful.

 

Need I go on?

 

Better dialogue options in Therinfall, and better use of the Knowledge perks. More relevant to the story, especially a mage. Cole. The ability point bonuses. The awesome loot! Need I go on?

 

Need I go on? Because I can. The templar path is up here --->

 

The mage path is down here...

 

Spoiler

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And that's you if you took the mage path. You get puked on. Redcliffe was one big drainage pipe of red and green barf.

 

Chooses templars over mages because of aesthetics, a bug and dialogue options, ignores that time travel plot involves averting bad future and pukes on people because of it. 

[KaiserShep]

Templars are objectively better and more story relevant.

If you go to Redcliffe, you essentially lose the entire game. Period.

Wat. It's not objectively better. You could just as well go with the idea (which is presented first btw) that the mages can help close the breach. Solas, the one who actually managed to suppress the mark so that the Inquisitor survived, is the one who presented the idea in the first place. Story relevance doesn't make sense, since either path presents you with an enemy faction that you face throughout the game, one of which being a cult that worships the ancient darkspawn.

But the thing that bothers me most about the Templar path was brought up by someone else. Even if you get the Templars, you still face legions of red Templars anyway. It's like the rachni queen all over again.

[Kantr]

It's a shame that going the Mage route effectively locks you out of finding out anything on Corypheus. Whereas if you go templar you can listen to his memory crystals/diary 

[KaiserShep]

It's a shame that going the Mage route effectively locks you out of finding out anything on Corypheus. Whereas if you go templar you can listen to his memory crystals/diary

That's one of the big pluses of Champions of the Just. I just dislike that I don't get any clues in the story for my character go work with to care to go to them (beyond Cassandra's suspicion about Lucius being mad. I don't know him and don't care to really take her word since I don't know her either). I basically feel like I have to be pro-Templar to bother.

[DebatableBubble]

Ha, how very subtly relevant

Spoiler

Your Inq's hot.

[DebatableBubble]

Narratively speaking, in my opinion, the Mages are the obvious choice in both hindsight and foresight. In foresight, when you meet their leaders it is obvious that they are not interested in working with you, their ability to close the Breach is theoretical and they started the war in the first place. The Mages on the other hand invite you to their base. In hindsight, the quest "In Hushed Whispers" has EVERYTHING! A future where you SEE the results of you failure and learn FACTS about your enemies movements. The nostalgia of Redcliffe, Connor, the sympathetic villain Alexius trying to protect his son, Leliana's sacrifice - OMG, the Ferelden monarch cameo and the possibility of having Fiona and her son in the same room - SQEEEE!!! "Champions of the Just" has no Mabari in this fight.

The games have been pushing players towards supporting (or at least sympathizing with) the mages and this is no exception.

[The Baconer]

The Templar route probably takes months to arrange and execute. Realistically, it's quite a gamble if your Inquisitor already knows that Redcliffe is under control of a hostile force that has some form of time-bending magic and the ability to open rifts.

[Shechinah]

The Templar route probably takes months to arrange and execute. Realistically, it's quite a gamble if your Inquisitor already knows that Redcliffe is under control of a hostile force that has some form of time-bending magic and the ability to open rifts.

 

On the other hand, I think one could use this as the reason as to why their character would seek out the Templars knowing this since the Templars are trained to counter magic.
 

[The Baconer]

On the other hand, I think one could use this as the reason as to why their character would seek out the Templars knowing this since the Templars are trained to counter magic.

That's where it becomes a gambit. One has to hope they don't turn Redcliffe into a demon-infested crater, or worse, during the time in which arrangements are made to meet the Templars. On the other hand, you can address the immediate problem, but can only hope that everything goes according to plan and you don't simply fall into a trap.

[Vanilka]

I've played through both paths and I think they both make sense. Especially when you roleplay. I don't see it from the "mages vs templars" perspective myself. I find that irrelevant in Inquisition. My job is sealing the hole in the sky. Period. I go more for the "best and most accessible tools for the job" kind of approach. And I like to make different decisions, based on that or not, with my characters.

 

Before I made a new character to go for the Champions of the Just, I played through it with my main Inquisitor after finishing my first playthough because I was too curious. I liked it quite a lot. In fact, I liked it enough that since then it became part of my headcanon with that character that she goes for the templars first because the mages seem to be more trouble than it's worth and the templars are trained to handle magic gone out of hand after all. In that headcanon the templars end up being beyond saving and the Inquisitor has to rely on the mages in the end after all. In practice, that means I play through the Champions of the Just (Only the quest itself and some dialogues with the companions and advisors afterwards, pick what I like from them for my story.), then go back and play In Hushed Whispers and continue the whole experience for real from there. I know it doesn't influence my game and the characters won't remember it, but I find it to be a very satisfying way to build my favourite Inquisitor's story. Maybe it's stupid of me, but whatever. It makes me happy.

 

In general, I've found both of the quests/paths to be worthwhile experiences that make sense for different Inquisitors and that makes them both very easy to justify. Your Inquisitor can't even have the exact same perspective the player does, in my opinion. So I suppose the question is whether I want to decide like the player that has all the lore, literature, wikis and previous games at their disposal to form their subjective preference, or make the decisions like the characters I have written in my head would make them. Which of the approaches is supposedly favoured more by the writers or supposedly makes more sense in the narrative is irrelevant to one's personal experience as long as one enjoys oneself.

[thesuperdarkone2]

On the other hand, I think one could use this as the reason as to why their character would seek out the Templars knowing this since the Templars are trained to counter magic.
 

Except your advisors straight up tell you that the Venatori are mobilizing for war and they'll be long gone by the time you get the templars. 

 

Also, in some reality where the Venatori didn't leave after all the time spent getting the Templars, did you forget Josephine outright stating a direct attack wouldn't work because it would start a war with Ferelden?

[Dai Grepher]

Not sure if troll or just stupid

Neither. My post is irrefutable.
 

Chooses templars over mages because of aesthetics, a bug and dialogue options, ignores that time travel plot involves averting bad future and pukes on people because of it. 

 
A bad future you caused by getting pwned by Alexius, whom you knew had set a trap and controlled time magic.
 

Wat. It's not objectively better. You could just as well go with the idea (which is presented first btw) that the mages can help close the breach. Solas, the one who actually managed to suppress the mark so that the Inquisitor survived, is the one who presented the idea in the first place. Story relevance doesn't make sense, since either path presents you with an enemy faction that you face throughout the game, one of which being a cult that worships the ancient darkspawn.

But the thing that bothers me most about the Templar path was brought up by someone else. Even if you get the Templars, you still face legions of red Templars anyway. It's like the rachni queen all over again.

 

But there's no reason to go for the mages when the templars can provide more help to you. The idea that the mages can help is based on the theory that they would pour their own magic into the mark, which could have adverse affects on the Herald.

 

You don't face legions of red templars. You face small groups.
 

The Templar route probably takes months to arrange and execute. Realistically, it's quite a gamble if your Inquisitor already knows that Redcliffe is under control of a hostile force that has some form of time-bending magic and the ability to open rifts.

 

If they have time-bending magic, then it doesn't matter how long it takes. They did whatever they were going to do already.
 

That's where it becomes a gambit. One has to hope they don't turn Redcliffe into a demon-infested crater, or worse, during the time in which arrangements are made to meet the Templars. On the other hand, you can address the immediate problem, but can only hope that everything goes according to plan and you don't simply fall into a trap.

 

Not the Inquisition's problem. Let the Ferelden crown deal with it.

 

Address the immediate problem by walking into the trap and hoping it goes well for you? No way. Assembling the Orlesian nobles shouldn't take long at all. It was only 10 Orlesian houses, and they may have already been at Haven. Some Orlesians have relatives in Ferelden already.
 

Except your advisors straight up tell you that the Venatori are mobilizing for war and they'll be long gone by the time you get the templars. 
 
Also, in some reality where the Venatori didn't leave after all the time spent getting the Templars, did you forget Josephine outright stating a direct attack wouldn't work because it would start a war with Ferelden?

 

Long gone is fine. As long as they are gone. And if they attack, then you have templars to repel magic.

 

War with Ferelden? How? By attacking mages that displaced an arl from his castle?