314 réponses à ce sujet

[thesuperdarkone2]

Neither. My post is irrefutable.

Lol now I can tell you are just trolling

[Dai Grepher]

Then refute my post, if you can.

[AlanC9]

Templars are objectively better and more story relevant.

If you go to Redcliffe, you essentially lose the entire game. Period.

Is this one of those threads where you start using a bizarre definition of "lose" that nobody but you understands?

[thesuperdarkone2]

 

 
A bad future you caused by getting pwned by Alexius, whom you knew had set a trap and controlled time magic.
 

 

You also seem to forget how the Envy Demon straight up tried to possess you and would have succeeded if Cole wasn't there. Is it better to walk into a trap and be prepared for it or unkowingly walk into a trap. Funny how in Redcliffe, the plan goes off without a hitch until Alexius surprises you whereas Envy would have won without Cole to help you out.

 

 

 

 

Not the Inquisition's problem. Let the Ferelden crown deal with it.

 

 

 

It is your problem because you know that time rifts will start growing, you have a tevinter cult who is obsessed with you and are the closest thing to a lead on finding out who caused the Breach, and they are preparing for an attack, likely on your own homebase so it would be smart to try and remove that threat before they attack you

 

 

Address the immediate problem by walking into the trap and hoping it goes well for you? No way. Assembling the Orlesian nobles shouldn't take long at all. It was only 10 Orlesian houses, and they may have already been at Haven. Some Orlesians have relatives in Ferelden already.
 

 

Forgetting that the templar mission does wind up being a trap with you being ambushed by red templars and almost getting possessed by Envy who would have succeeded if some random spirit just happened to be there to help you. Also, you seem to forget how a war table mission shows that some nobles are angry at you because you wound up getting their relatives killed.

 

Also, what exactly would you have done if the templars straight up said no? At least if you help the mages, you'd have a group of people grateful to you for rescuing them from slavery, as opposed to hoping the templars bow to you essentially threatening them.

 

 

War with Ferelden? How? By attacking mages that displaced an arl from his castle?

Yes because Josephine explains it:

https://youtu.be/FvY80AKS584?t=59s

 

Basically, the Inquisition is seen as Orlesian and thus an armed force would be seen as a bunch of Orlesians invading Ferelden territory and would start a war given how much Fereldens dislike Orlesians. That's also ignoring how Redcliffe Castle is one of the most defensible fortresses in Ferelden.

[Dai Grepher]

IS this one of those threads where you start using a bizarre definition of "lose" that nobody but you understands?

Alexius hits you with his time spell, which you should have been expecting. It leaves a burn mark on the floor. Then all of southern Thedas is destroyed over the next year. Your friends and associates get tortured, others are tortured to death. Good job.

[thesuperdarkone2]

Alexius hits you with his time spell, which you should have been expecting. It leaves a burn mark on the floor. Then all of southern Thedas is destroyed over the next year. Your friends and associates get tortured, others are tortured to death. Good job.

Envy Demon possesses you. No Cole means Envy conquers Thedas as a tyrant. Your friends are killed, tortured, or imprisoned.  Good Job

[Mlady]

I can see your point OP, but the game does clearly hint at the mages right from the start. It's then up to you to decide if investigating the Lord Seeker is more important than Fiona's cryptic invite. It constantly goes both ways leaving you to make the choice you see fit. For example, Cullen will hint at skipping the mages and going after the Templars right before you meet the Magister, but by then the threat to Redcliffe is so great, it would be crazy not to help out. 

 

I logically choose the mages because of what needs to be done to seal the breech, but Cullen does make a good point about the Templars abilities to suppress magic, so again it's always left up how I choose to play my Inquisitor. Basically siding with the Templars gains you respect politically (Orlais ball gossip lol).

 

Sometime I just choose the path the dwarf at Haven suggests when I first end up there LOL and it's always random I've noticed.

[AlanC9]

Alexius hits you with his time spell, which you should have been expecting. It leaves a burn mark on the floor. Then all of southern Thedas is destroyed over the next year. Your friends and associates get tortured, others are tortured to death. Good job.

Since we undo all of that, it never happens. What have we "lost"?

[Ashagar]

The Templar route probably takes months to arrange and execute. Realistically, it's quite a gamble if your Inquisitor already knows that Redcliffe is under control of a hostile force that has some form of time-bending magic and the ability to open rifts.

 

 It also doesn't involve walking into what's a painfully obvious trap in a enemy stronghold with no real backup and requires you believing that pouring more magic into magic you know nothing about is a good idea which are big gambles as well.

 

Both missions have their drawbacks and risks that some might find unacceptable even if they are playing mages. Its for me it was only my elven inqusitior who was willing to accept the risk of going to redcliff castle.

[BSpud]

IS this one of those threads where you start using a bizarre definition of "lose" that nobody but you understands?

 

It's like I'm playing an RPG and Dai is playing--what, a sports game?

 

Losing for me would be "I picked the least narratively-satisfying path for my PC."

 

For Dai, losing seems to be "My PC made a mistake--GAME OVER, TRY AGAIN."

[AnimalBoy]

Why even engage posters so thick headed that they won't even listen to the opposing points of view?

[Dai Grepher]

You also seem to forget how the Envy Demon straight up tried to possess you and would have succeeded if Cole wasn't there. Is it better to walk into a trap and be prepared for it or unkowingly walk into a trap. Funny how in Redcliffe, the plan goes off without a hitch until Alexius surprises you whereas Envy would have won without Cole to help you out.

Tried to.

Proof that Envy would have succeeded had Cole not been there?

In all likelihood Cassandra, Vivienne, Solas, or at least Barris would have been able to see that the Herald's mind was under attack, and would have freed him before Envy could complete its task. That's assuming the Herald wouldn't have figured it out himself, which he would have. He was doing just fine as he was.

It's better to avoid known traps and be prepared for anything. Besides, Therinfall was not a trap. You arrived too early for Envy, and messed up its and Samson's plans. The trap was at Val Royeaux, and Lucius' attempt to discourage you from seeking out the templars. If you went to Redcliffe, you fell for two traps. Way to go.

You wrote that about Cole already. Running out of ideas so soon? "Redcliffe goes off without a hitch until..." means Redcliffe did not go off without a hitch.
 

It is your problem because you know that time rifts will start growing, you have a tevinter cult who is obsessed with you and are the closest thing to a lead on finding out who caused the Breach, and they are preparing for an attack, likely on your own homebase so it would be smart to try and remove that threat before they attack you

But you don't know that stopping Alexius will stop the time rifts.

How is the cult a lead on who caused the Breach? Fiona points to Lucius as being involved when you meet her in Val Royeaux. He's just as likely to give answers as to who caused the Breach.

An attack that would have failed. They didn't have the numbers to take Haven at that time. Leliana was just worried about them being hostile and close. She did not say they would attack in a force large enough to destroy Haven. The only reason they were at all formidable was because of Redcliffe's walls and water. Attacking directly would have cost them everything.

You can't remove the threat of Alexius without either putting yourself at great risk, or getting the templars first. It's time magic. Think about it. Theoretically, any plan you have to beat Alexius has already been tried and has been accounted for from Alexius' perspective because he has already gone back in time to counter it. Which means, for all you know he already knows what you are going to do. So instead it's better to avoid the trap and let him waste his time magic on Ferelden's soldiers.
 

Forgetting that the templar mission does wind up being a trap with you being ambushed by red templars and almost getting possessed by Envy who would have succeeded if some random spirit just happened to be there to help you. Also, you seem to forget how a war table mission shows that some nobles are angry at you because you wound up getting their relatives killed.

... So are you going to repeat all your points in the same reply, or just certain ones? Therinfall wasn't a trap. You arrived too early, and Envy's hand was forced. You foiled his plans by going to Therinfall. By going to Redcliffe you let Envy succeed. Again, any proof that Envy would have possessed you had it not been for Cole?

Feigned outrage. All part of The Game. Picking Leliana reveals this. I think Josephine's method actually has the lord feeling genuine sadness for the lost relative though, and committing to your cause in response. Can't remember Cullen's result.
 

Also, what exactly would you have done if the templars straight up said no? At least if you help the mages, you'd have a group of people grateful to you for rescuing them from slavery, as opposed to hoping the templars bow to you essentially threatening them.

"Rescuing" them from slavery... that they willingly sold themselves into? And this cuts both ways. What if the mages had just refused to follow you?

No to what? Recognition from the nobility, which is what they wanted, and we had? It's theoretical after that, but I imagine we would have tried to convince as many senior templars as possible to join us. Had that not worked, then threats to cut them off from society entirely. Some nobles were already mentioning that if you listen to their conversations with the templars. Worst case scenario, simply make more templars of your own.
 

Yes because Josephine explains it:
https://youtu.be/FvY80AKS584?t=59s
 
Basically, the Inquisition is seen as Orlesian and thus an armed force would be seen as a bunch of Orlesians invading Ferelden territory and would start a war given how much Fereldens dislike Orlesians. That's also ignoring how Redcliffe Castle is one of the most defensible fortresses in Ferelden.

Josephine is referring to if they attacked at that time. That doesn't factor in the Herald gaining the templars from Therinfall. Besides, how is infiltrating a castle through the family's secret exit not seen as an act of war if attacking the castle outright is?

[robertthebard]

Tried to.

Proof that Envy would have succeeded had Cole not been there?

In all likelihood Cassandra, Vivienne, Solas, or at least Barris would have been able to see that the Herald's mind was under attack, and would have freed him before Envy could complete its task. That's assuming the Herald wouldn't have figured it out himself, which he would have. He was doing just fine as he was.

It's better to avoid known traps and be prepared for anything. Besides, Therinfall was not a trap. You arrived too early for Envy, and messed up its and Samson's plans. The trap was at Val Royeaux, and Lucius' attempt to discourage you from seeking out the templars. If you went to Redcliffe, you fell for two traps. Way to go.

You wrote that about Cole already. Running out of ideas so soon? "Redcliffe goes off without a hitch until..." means Redcliffe did not go off without a hitch.
 

But you don't know that stopping Alexius will stop the time rifts.

How is the cult a lead on who caused the Breach? Fiona points to Lucius as being involved when you meet her in Val Royeaux. He's just as likely to give answers as to who caused the Breach.

An attack that would have failed. They didn't have the numbers to take Haven at that time. Leliana was just worried about them being hostile and close. She did not say they would attack in a force large enough to destroy Haven. The only reason they were at all formidable was because of Redcliffe's walls and water. Attacking directly would have cost them everything.

You can't remove the threat of Alexius without either putting yourself at great risk, or getting the templars first. It's time magic. Think about it. Theoretically, any plan you have to beat Alexius has already been tried and has been accounted for from Alexius' perspective because he has already gone back in time to counter it. Which means, for all you know he already knows what you are going to do. So instead it's better to avoid the trap and let him waste his time magic on Ferelden's soldiers.
 

... So are you going to repeat all your points in the same reply, or just certain ones? Therinfall wasn't a trap. You arrived too early, and Envy's hand was forced. You foiled his plans by going to Therinfall. By going to Redcliffe you let Envy succeed. Again, any proof that Envy would have possessed you had it not been for Cole?

Feigned outrage. All part of The Game. Picking Leliana reveals this. I think Josephine's method actually has the lord feeling genuine sadness for the lost relative though, and committing to your cause in response. Can't remember Cullen's result.
 

"Rescuing" them from slavery... that they willingly sold themselves into? And this cuts both ways. What if the mages had just refused to follow you?

No to what? Recognition from the nobility, which is what they wanted, and we had? It's theoretical after that, but I imagine we would have tried to convince as many senior templars as possible to join us. Had that not worked, then threats to cut them off from society entirely. Some nobles were already mentioning that if you listen to their conversations with the templars. Worst case scenario, simply make more templars of your own.
 

Josephine is referring to if they attacked at that time. That doesn't factor in the Herald gaining the templars from Therinfall. Besides, how is infiltrating a castle through the family's secret exit not seen as an act of war if attacking the castle outright is?

You know what I don't know, right from the very beginning of the game?  How, exactly, Templars are going to help close the Breach.  The truth be told, I don't know how having the mages is going to do any good either.  From this perspective, wasting my valuable time chasing either faction is a waste of time, and I should just bolt as soon as I can get out of Haven.  That is, narratively speaking, the absolute best option:  Run the hell away.

 

At the time that the decision is made, for all I know, splinter cells from both groups caused the Breach in the first place.  This is further supported by the fact that both faction's leaders weren't at the conclave, which points straight at it being a conspiracy concocted by said splinter groups, led by their very own leaders.  Explain to me how, exactly, I'm supposed to believe that neither faction is going to try to kill me as soon as I show up?  Surprise surprise, guess what:  They both do, right at the very beginning of both quests.  Guess what:  That means that my premise is the absolute best option for the PC. 

[Dai Grepher]

Since we undo all of that, it never happens. What have we "lost"?

 

It happened to you. It was real for ugly Leliana. You lost against Alexius' time spell, and it required southern Thedas suffering for a year to let you avoid the consequences of your loss.

 

It's like I'm playing an RPG and Dai is playing--what, a sports game?

 

Losing for me would be "I picked the least narratively-satisfying path for my PC."

 

For Dai, losing seems to be "My PC made a mistake--GAME OVER, TRY AGAIN."

 

But you did pick the least satisfying narration path for your custom character.

 

Your PC got caught in the trap.

 

You know what I don't know, right from the very beginning of the game?  How, exactly, Templars are going to help close the Breach.  The truth be told, I don't know how having the mages is going to do any good either.  From this perspective, wasting my valuable time chasing either faction is a waste of time, and I should just bolt as soon as I can get out of Haven.  That is, narratively speaking, the absolute best option:  Run the hell away.

 

At the time that the decision is made, for all I know, splinter cells from both groups caused the Breach in the first place.  This is further supported by the fact that both faction's leaders weren't at the conclave, which points straight at it being a conspiracy concocted by said splinter groups, led by their very own leaders.  Explain to me how, exactly, I'm supposed to believe that neither faction is going to try to kill me as soon as I show up?  Surprise surprise, guess what:  They both do, right at the very beginning of both quests.  Guess what:  That means that my premise is the absolute best option for the PC. 

 

I can't argue with that. Haven had mages and templars loyal to the Inquisition. Why couldn't they be used?

 

But there is still value in getting the templars under control, even if it isn't to close the Breach.

[thesuperdarkone2]

Why even engage posters so thick headed that they won't even listen to the opposing points of view?

I don't even know why especially considering that Dai Grepher is TKS levels of stubborn and ignorant about how right they think they are about everything

[BSpud]

But you did pick the least satisfying narration path for your custom character.

 

Your PC got caught in the trap.

 

 

You must have a heart attack watching Raiders of the Lost Ark.

[Dai Grepher]

I thought the Raiders were of Oakland California.

[KaiserShep]

But you did pick the least satisfying narration path for your custom character.

 

Your PC got caught in the trap.

 

 

I'm not sure that i could buy the argument that getting caught in a trap makes for a less satisfying narrative path. The protagonist getting caught in a trap, thereby being in greater danger, could actually be more satisfying. 

[BansheeOwnage]

Your Inq's hot.

Ha, thanks, but I can't take the credit. My girlfriend created her.

 

 

Before I made a new character to go for the Champions of the Just, I played through it with my main Inquisitor after finishing my first playthough because I was too curious. I liked it quite a lot. In fact, I liked it enough that since then it became part of my headcanon with that character that she goes for the templars first because the mages seem to be more trouble than it's worth and the templars are trained to handle magic gone out of hand after all. In that headcanon the templars end up being beyond saving and the Inquisitor has to rely on the mages in the end after all. In practice, that means I play through the Champions of the Just (Only the quest itself and some dialogues with the companions and advisors afterwards, pick what I like from them for my story.), then go back and play In Hushed Whispers and continue the whole experience for real from there. I know it doesn't influence my game and the characters won't remember it, but I find it to be a very satisfying way to build my favourite Inquisitor's story. Maybe it's stupid of me, but whatever. It makes me happy.

Huh. That's an interesting idea! I feel like I've done something similar before, but can't remember what for some reason.

 

As for the topic at hand: I do find it a bit disheartening that IHW seems to be the path with more effort put into it. I have no proof, but that's how it comes across to me. Things like needing to recruit Cole twice, IHW having an intro quest you can play through before deciding which path to take, and Barris not being an NPC in Skyhold, unlike Fiona, makes it seem like they didn't give CotJ as thought as IHW. And this isn't about effort per se, but I think learning parts of Corypheus' plan because you're in the future makes a lot more sense and is less convoluted than learning it because Envy is careless.

 

And I want to point something out: Going after either faction doesn't mean you're pro-that-faction. You can easily conscript the mages to control them or leash the Templars because you want to free mages.

[Dai Grepher]

I'm not sure that i could buy the argument that getting caught in a trap makes for a less satisfying narrative path. The protagonist getting caught in a trap, thereby being in greater danger, could actually be more satisfying. 

 

Those were separate comments.

 

IHW is the least satisfying narrative path because of the previously stated reasons.

 

The Herald who goes to Redcliffe Castle loses because he gets caught in the trap.

[MisterJB]

Who is AlanC9? Did someone change their username?

Because he or she has over 30000 posts and I would remember someone with over 30 posts and yet, I have no idea who he or she is.

[MisterJB]

Barris not being an NPC in Skyhold, unlike Fiona,

Well, Barris is out there, protecting villages from demons and Venatori. Saving mages from mobs.

Fiona is sitting on her bony ass.

[Dai Grepher]

And if you ally with templars you can send Barris on missions and promote him.

[KaiserShep]

Well, Barris is out there, protecting villages from demons and Venatori. Saving mages from mobs.

Fiona is sitting on her bony ass.

 

 

Well, technically standing on her bony legs for days on end. But yeah, they dropped the ball with Fiona. She should have been off providing support for Inquisition forces along with some of her group. 

[KaiserShep]

Those were separate comments.

 

IHW is the least satisfying narrative path because of the previously stated reasons.

 

The Herald who goes to Redcliffe Castle loses because he gets caught in the trap.

 

 

I get that this is a matter of personal preference, but losing temporarily is one of those things that often make a plot more interesting. I can't help but note the irony in all of this, though. The game is sometimes criticized around here because it's felt that the Inquisitor doesn't really lose often enough.