314 réponses à ce sujet

[BansheeOwnage]

While to me it was hard to justify a good character from a andrestian background and side with the murderous, the ends justifies the means, mages who betrayed their hosts at the first sign they might did attacked, at best abandoned the trainquil assuming at least some of them weren't actively helping the ventari and before the conclave had no issue killed their fellow mages even if they wren't a threat to 'free them in death' for being chantry loyalists or wanting to stay neutral. Of course my knowledge of how in premodern societies violations of the host guest relationship is one of the worse possible crimes one could commit likely factors into it, its what made what Howe did even worse than simply killing the couslands because he was a guest in their home.

 

Its a matter of perspective and neither side is better than the other.

Well, something I should point out here is that there are many non-combatants within the mage faction, such as children and the elderly, and many mages who don't actually want to fight at all. You can't paint the whole group as murderous fanatics, so recruiting them for their sake could also be an argument.

[Xerrai]

I am one of those that finds it sort of a dilemma.   I actually enjoy the whole 'envy' demon scenario.   Love the idea that you are fighting off its possession in your mind.   I also like Calpernia better as Cory's henchmen(henchwoman?).

 

However, for most of my characters, they just sort of feel dirty helping the Templars.   Its hard for me to justify roleplaying a character who claims to be 'good' and helping an organization full of oppressive thugs.    For this reason alone, I mostly aid the mages.  

I wouldn't really call them "thugs". Several have shown the capability to sympathize with the mages and their plight, as well as some who hold traditional views (i.e Cullen) but have a high degree of honor and cordial conduct when dealing with Mages.

 

But I get what you're saying. if Asunder made anything clear it was that some/several Templars have too much power that can be abused--sometimes to radical degrees. A peaceful vote turned into a massacre, supposed oversight by the Divine was all but proven to be lip service only, the protection of mages in Circles often reduced from protector-wards relations to guard-prisoner relations.

 

But if there was one fatal flaw that I could ascribe to the Templars as a general whole (exceptions notwithstanding), it is that they refuse to question. Conservative ideals aside, all attempted discussion to improve the lives of mages have usually met with either deaf ears (typically when it comes from mages) or stubborn refusal (as seen with the Divine). Many are so self-assured that they are right that they do not even try to look for evidence or explanations. Others who do question are usually encouraged not to--if not blatantly ordered not to--by more conservative high figures who basically rule many of its upper positions. For an organization that is supposed to investigate the potential corruption of mages, their inability to even try and identify their own is their great folly.

 

A folly that culminated in the quest Champions of the Just. Demon or not, red lyrium had obvious ill effects that should have been easily detected by even the smallest ingestion (itching, irritation, sometimes burning and hallucinations etc.) that coupled with its unusual amount of power. Yet somehow, all of the Templars' higher chains of command become addicted to the stuff (barring a few noted deaths that also go unnoticed). The corruption of their higher tier going unnoticed only highlights how the Templar's zealous devotion to 'duty' by unquestioning obedience is taken to a dangerous extreme. One that could spell their downfall if not for the intervention of the Inquisition.

[KaiserShep]

The only Templars worth a damn were already part of the Inquisition. To the void with the rest. 

[GoldenGail3]

The only Templars worth a damn were already part of the Inquisition. To the void with the rest.

GASPS! What about Sir Barris? He's.... Grand!

[Dai Grepher]

No, you were trying to make the point that the Inquisitor would have to fight their way into the castle thus making it a less attractive option. You failed.

And not authorized by Ferelden? Since when? It's obviously being held by a foreign power. Ferelden is more than happy that you take the castle away from the enemy and give it back to Ferelden.

No, I never made such a point. I was referring to the fact that Ferelden, specifically Arl Teagan or the Ferelden monarch(s), gave you no authorization to be inside Redcliffe Castle. Compare that to Therinfal, which is a Seeker base, not a Ferelden base. So you don't need Ferelden's permission to be there.

Since when? Understand that this is regarding the point in time before you decide to go to Redcliffe castle. Josephine speculated that Ferelden would interpret the "Orlesian" Inquisition's actions as a provocation of war. My point is, at this point in time, an infiltration of Redcliffe would be seen as no different from a direct assault on Redcliffe. Heck, even going to Redcliffe Castle by answering Alexius' invite could have been seen as a provocation against Ferelden.

Ferelden is fine with you getting rid of the Venatori and taking the mages off their hands, but this is after the fact. We were discussing the point in time before IHW begins when you don't know how Ferelden will feel about it.

There's (literally) an infinite number of approaches he could try, and an infinite amount of time to find the most optimal ones. That is assuming he has the powers the Inquisitor is supposed to assume he has, which he doesn't. 
 
Because as of speaking with Dorian in the Chantry, we know it is very experimental, crude, and constrained by location. 
 
They have the advantages of a fortified location (famous for being the most defensible castle in Ferelden, no less), having a large amount of mages being able to cast spells from said location, and they also have the ability to open rifts and let demons do their work for them. Even in the event that they suffer significant losses (which I doubt), it would be a crippling blow to Ferelden and a death sentence for the surrounding Hinterlands. 
 
No, it would take months. 
 
No.

I wouldn't call it an infinite number of approaches, though he theoretically could have an infinite number of attempts (provided he doesn't slip up one of those times). Alexius would still be limited by the numbers of seconds, places, and resources that would be available to him within that window. Because of these limits, his approaches are not infinite, but they are numerous. You could say he has 19 trillion options, but I think 99% of those options are only slight variations, and thus insignificant. Out of all the viable options available to him, getting the Herald to Redcliffe Castle is the best one for him. Everything else is worse. That alone makes avoiding the trap the better option for the Herald by default. Now, of the options Alexius has of attacking the Herald in the wild, these are all options that feature unfamiliar ground for Alexius. There is more likelihood that he will mess up on one of his infinite attempts. So as long as the Herald can make it so that none of Alexius' attempts can possibly succeed, then the Herald is safe from Alexius. It's like being dropped in front of Gurd Haroffson while you're at level 1. Have as many reloads as you want, you'll never win. That's how it was for Alexius if the Herald went to Therinfal. There was no way he could win, so instead of make the attempt he simply moved the mages north to meet up with the main Venatori force.

But what I mean is, wouldn't it be better to be cautious and assume that Alexius' power has no limits? Assuming that it has limits is unsafe and unwise, don't you think? Also, I don't remember Dorian phrasing it like that exactly, but assuming he did and the magic works based on location, wouldn't it be wise to avoid that location?

Yes, but the Venatori can't rightly carry Recliffe Castle miles over to Haven. They would have to come out of the castle. And if they stay in, they can't attack Haven. As for the Hinterlands, well, they would have to come out of the castle for that too. And as for summoning demons... summon them where exactly? Inside Redcliffe Castle? How would that benefit the Venatori? Redcliffe Castle is on a cliff surrounded by water. There's nowhere for the demons to go. Ferelden's soldiers could just blow the bridge and starve everyone inside. Again, that's Ferelden's problem. The Inquisition's problem is the Breach. If Ferelden wants help destroying the mages that took over one of their castles, then let them petition the Inquisition for assistance.

Prove it would take months, especially since the game shows the Orlesian houses ready to go at the same time you can choose to go to Redcliffe Castle to meet with Alexius.

I'll have to verify Dagna's statement later.

Lol, who the frak cares about authorization? Evil wizards that back an even evil-er wizard with super cooties that want to become god kings upon Thedas kicked Redcliffe's rightful ruler out of his own home. Teagan might be pissing and moaning 2 years after the fact, but he'd welcome any friendly forces that can oust them at the time.

Josephine, for starters. Wise Heralds most importantly. No, Teagan didn't welcome anyone except Ferelden's monarch(s). Yes, evil mages are trespassing in a Ferelden castle. So why would you go to meet with them in that castle, as if they are a legitimate group? They have no right to be there, and they have no right to use the castle as a place of negotiating anything.

How were we "unauthorized" to be a Redcliffe? We were invited. The purpose of going to Therinfal was not to recruit "some" Templars, the Inquisition already had some, the purpose was to recruit the Order Which made it clear that they were not interested in joining and the plan was to make them via noble pressure.

You do not learn FACTS from Champions of the Just. Only that the enemy WANTS to kill Celene and summon a Demon army. In Hushed Whispers you LEARN that they actually succeed in doing so and see the aftermath firsthand.

Fiona and everyone in Redcliffe were being fed false information and being manipulated with Time Magic. Before the Mages moved to Redcliffe they had been fighting the Templars for over a year on their own and had not in any way been "crushed". Templar > Mage IS NOT A FACT. Even in the best case scenario for Templars, the annulment of a Circle Tower, Templars take heavy casualties. It is not the fact that they are Templars that they win but that they are trained to fight and Mages are not. It is that they have greater resources and numbers as the martial arm of the Chantry. There are dozens of examples in-game and in lore that depict Templars falling to Mages and other Magical forces. It is also in the very premise of the game that BOTH sides agreed to the Conclave because NEITHER saw an end. People on both side throughout the game stated this. There was no "crushing" going on anywhere.

In the Hinterlands, within the ruined Fort Connor, a besieged Templar base, is this codex entry painting the victory for the Mages in that arena.

"It proved its fortitude against darkspawn during the Fifth Blight, suffering damage only when the darkspawn deployed emissaries. Eamon said proudly at the time that Fort Connor was "unbreakable by anything short of magic, and for that, thank the Maker we have templars." - Codex Entry Fort Connor

It is also stated by one of the quest people there helping the refugees that the Mages were pushing the Templars back. It was also easy to note the many Templar corpses lying around.

It is strongly suggested that Envy had taken Lucius's shape by at least the time he encountered the Inquisitor at Val Royeaux. Between then and it's death, Envy had spent weeks if not months in full view of the bulk of Templar forces.

Tevinter does have armies of non Magical fighters but their main strength has always been in their Magic. Various convos and codex entries point to Tevinter Mages fighting on the front lines and those who have been trained in combat during the four Exalted Marches have undoubtedly encountered Templars and as I pointed out the Templars have yet to strike a victory.

You were invited by a foreign enemy of Ferelden to negotiate with them inside a Ferelden castle they took over illegally. You were not authorized to be in the castle by those who legitimately owned it.

But maybe I'm getting ahead of myself. Yes, Fiona invites you to speak with the mages. How cordial of her. So okay, you have a better reason to approach the mages at this point. But that all changes once you get to Redcliffe Village. Fiona is no longer in charge. You only have a hostile foreign magister to talk to now. He invites you to a castle he wrongfully stole from the legitimate lord. You are not authorized to negotiate with this trespasser on stolen land. The owners of Redcliffe Castle have not given you permission to be there.

Yes, making them join was the plan. But I thought you wrote that the templars made it clear they had no interest in joining you. Some wanted to (interest in joining), but their duty to follow their commanders prevented them from leaving. It was only the bold people like Cullen and Lisette who had the guts to take the risk and walk away from the order and join the Inquisition. But the fact that some showed interest in joining the Inquisition means they were not beyond reaching. All you had to do was go there with influence and cunning to convince them to your side.

You see the aftermath of Redcliffe being taken. You don't really see the countryside. You just hear about it. You see visions of the demon army in your mind, and you do find facts on Celene's assassination in that room, among many other things. The problem with IHW is you only learn the two basic things about the next plots. Nothing else. You learn Celene was assassinated, but you don't learn that it was Florienne who did it and that it was Gaspard who got the blame. Why? You don't learn that the Grey Wardens summoned the demon army because they are being controlled by Corypheus, whom Varric should have been able to identify. As is that all that happened in that year worthy of note? Shouldn't be. For example, the red templars. Oh yeah. With no Herald the red templars should emerge from Therinfal. Yet no mention of this. Why not? I would think we would need to know that so we can go to Therinfal right after getting back to the present so we can prevent that too.

No, Fiona admits the mages are losing. It doesn't matter how long they held out, being whittled away little by little. They were losing. Fiona needed Ferelden to grant them protection in Redcliffe because they were losing.

Templars take heavy casualties against abominations and demons, not mages. Um, clearly their ability to fight plays a part, but that's part of being a templar. But clearly their magic resistance benefits them against mages. Pretty much all a templar needs to do is Holy Smite. It's almost like an "I win" move against a mage. But yes, if a single templar is getting blasted every which way by multiple mages, that's different.

Sorry, how does that codex prove anything? It states that Fort Connor survived physical attack by Darkspawn, but not magical attack. And that templars defeat magic. Not sure what your point is with this. If anything that codex is proving that the templars can beat the mages, because the only thing that can destroy Fort Connor is magic, and yet there it is, still standing, thanks to the templars that defeat magic.

As I wrote before. Sell swords are the reason why the templars were dying. Alistair says it clearly in Origins. To a non-mage he's just a guy in a suit of armor.

What suggests that the Lucius in Val Royeaux was Envy? I would think that role would be far too important to leave to anyone but the real Lucius. Again, Envy Lucius may have had limited contact with the templars. Denam may have been the one controlling most daily operations. The senior templars were also affected by the red lyrium. So they would also serve Envy willingly.

Magic has always been Tevinter's main strength against the Qunari, but not the other human nations. Templars have struck victories, but sacking Minrathous is a different matter entirely. None of this addresses your original point however. Just because the Chantry has not toppled Tevinter does not mean templars are ineffective against their mages. The reason the Exalted Marches didn't work is because of the factors I wrote about in my previous post to you. Soporotti. It wasn't a case of Chantry templars vs. Tevinter mages. In fact, I doubt there were that many templars in the Chantry army, as they would be needed in the Circles to watch the mages.
 

Well, something I should point out here is that there are many non-combatants within the mage faction, such as children and the elderly, and many mages who don't actually want to fight at all. You can't paint the whole group as murderous fanatics, so recruiting them for their sake could also be an argument.

I disagree. All those people could have chosen to leave the mage rebellion and join the Inquisition right then and there. They had no obligation to stick with Fiona or sell themselves to Tevinter.

The only Templars worth a damn were already part of the Inquisition. To the void with the rest.

Like Ser Barris?

[The Baconer]

I wouldn't call it an infinite number of approaches, though he theoretically could have an infinite number of attempts (provided he doesn't slip up one of those times). Alexius would still be limited by the numbers of seconds, places, and resources that would be available to him within that window. Because of these limits, his approaches are not infinite, but they are numerous. You could say he has 19 trillion options, but I think 99% of those options are only slight variations, and thus insignificant. Out of all the viable options available to him, getting the Herald to Redcliffe Castle is the best one for him. Everything else is worse. That alone makes avoiding the trap the better option for the Herald by default. Now, of the options Alexius has of attacking the Herald in the wild, these are all options that feature unfamiliar ground for Alexius. There is more likelihood that he will mess up on one of his infinite attempts. So as long as the Herald can make it so that none of Alexius' attempts can possibly succeed, then the Herald is safe from Alexius. It's like being dropped in front of Gurd Haroffson while you're at level 1. Have as many reloads as you want, you'll never win. That's how it was for Alexius if the Herald went to Therinfal. There was no way he could win, so instead of make the attempt he simply moved the mages north to meet up with the main Venatori force.

 

It is the best one available to him according entirely to you, working within the scope of a hypothetical we know for a fact isn't true. This is absolutely pointless. 

 

 

But what I mean is, wouldn't it be better to be cautious and assume that Alexius' power has no limits? Assuming that it has limits is unsafe and unwise, don't you think? Also, I don't remember Dorian phrasing it like that exactly, but assuming he did and the magic works based on location, wouldn't it be wise to avoid that location?

 

We don't need to assume it has limits, we know it has limits, as of being in the Chantry... and as of still being alive to decide whether to leave or not. 

 

 

Yes, but the Venatori can't rightly carry Recliffe Castle miles over to Haven. They would have to come out of the castle. And if they stay in, they can't attack Haven. As for the Hinterlands, well, they would have to come out of the castle for that too. And as for summoning demons... summon them where exactly? Inside Redcliffe Castle? How would that benefit the Venatori? Redcliffe Castle is on a cliff surrounded by water. There's nowhere for the demons to go. Ferelden's soldiers could just blow the bridge and starve everyone inside. Again, that's Ferelden's problem. The Inquisition's problem is the Breach. If Ferelden wants help destroying the mages that took over one of their castles, then let them petition the Inquisition for assistance.

 

Open a rift outside the castle walls, just like they did with the village. 

 

What is Ferelden going to blow the bridge with? Buckets of Lyrium? The castle isn't even limited to bridge access anymore, the landscape got retconned. 

 

 

Prove it would take months, especially since the game shows the Orlesian houses ready to go at the same time you can choose to go to Redcliffe Castle to meet with Alexius.

 

I already did when I posted a figure derived from Dagna's assessment and the distance between Haven and Therinfal. You are free to try and prove otherwise anytime you'd like. 

[Knight of Dane]

No, not narratively speaking. I think it's the better choice, but narratively speaking getting the mages makes more sense.

 

You can get them earlier, the templars make a clear statement of non-support in Val Royeaux, and you actually know the mages are in real danger when you unlock the mission to go to Redcliffe Castle.

 

Narratively speaking you have to either not go to Redcliffe to meet Fiona in the first place or play a sctrict pro-templar/anti-mage character for it to make sense to appeal to the Templars once more.

For that matter the "power" trait is more immersion breaking in that quest because it just translates into Orlesian noble alliance ASAP. No build up to get it besides completing random Hinterlands quests and requisitions.

 

At least in the mage quest you still have to infiltrate the castle with just the Inquisition as the small order you are supposed to be.

[Mr Fixit]

A folly that culminated in the quest Champions of the Just. Demon or not, red lyrium had obvious ill effects that should have been easily detected by even the smallest ingestion (itching, irritation, sometimes burning and hallucinations etc.) that coupled with its unusual amount of power. Yet somehow, all of the Templars' higher chains of command become addicted to the stuff (barring a few noted deaths that also go unnoticed). The corruption of their higher tier going unnoticed only highlights how the Templar's zealous devotion to 'duty' by unquestioning obedience is taken to a dangerous extreme. One that could spell their downfall if not for the intervention of the Inquisition.

 

It may also highlight the overly silly and binary plotting. Not one of Bioware's best.

[robertthebard]

It may also highlight the overly silly and binary plotting. Not one of Bioware's best.

Or it could simply be what it was written to be, an example of the dangers of fanaticism.

[BansheeOwnage]

I disagree. All those people could have chosen to leave the mage rebellion and join the Inquisition right then and there. They had no obligation to stick with Fiona or sell themselves to Tevinter.

Even the children, who don't understand what's going on? Of course, it would have helped if they actually showed any children in the game...

[sjsharp2011]

I don't know how many times this needs to be said, but I'll say it as many times as I need to: There is no wrong way to go between mages or Templars. Both paths are viable and make sense depending on player biases and roleplaying,

Yeah I agree I just let my character choose for themselves which way they want to go. For example in my current playthrough my Topal felt that she had enough sword and shield companions and was one herself that she probably could handle the job well enough to not need more. But she did feel she wanted moer magical experts on the Inquisition team.Also given she was dealing with an unknown magical event, and with her people being strong in magic being a Dalish elf even if she wasn't a mage herself she knew and felt she needed more magic on her side to deal with what was likely to come up next. As she suspected that whoever caused the breach was also extremely likely to be strong in magic also.

[Mr Fixit]

Or it could simply be what it was written to be, an example of the dangers of fanaticism.

 

I have no doubt that's what they wanted to depict, but there is something to be said about subtlety.

[robertthebard]

I have no doubt that's what they wanted to depict, but there is something to be said about subtlety.

Heh, have you been reading these forums?  If it didn't hit some of them in the head with a tractor trailer, they didn't get it.

[Almostfaceman]

No, I never made such a point. 

 

I know you didn't. Like I said, you tried and failed. You can't be honestly trying to sell anyone that they shouldn't go into Redcliffe castle and save it for Ferelden because... because? 

 

Silly troll attempt is silly. 

 

[KaiserShep]

Josephine, for starters. Wise Heralds most importantly. No, Teagan didn't welcome anyone except Ferelden's monarch(s). Yes, evil mages are trespassing in a Ferelden castle. So why would you go to meet with them in that castle, as if they are a legitimate group? They have no right to be there, and they have no right to use the castle as a place of negotiating anything.

 

Josephine doesn't disapprove because of "authorization", she disapproves because of the danger, which the Herald is in just as much as at Thereinfal Redoubt. You don't know what Teagan approves or disapproves of, because the Venatori kicked him out of his own castle. It's a fair bet that he'd gladly take the group comprised of [former] Chantry forces if it meant ousting the evil wizards and giving it back to him. 

 

No one is acknowledging the Venatori as a legitimate group. The Inquisition entered the castle with the express intent of neutralizing a "hostile power", retaking Redcliffe and taking the mages away from them, or did you miss the Venatori agents getting their throats slit in the throne room? 

 

Like Ser Barris?

 

 

He never joined the Inquisition. He walked out of Val Royeaux at the heel of some holy thugs, presumably to get stomped on by a behemoth later. 

[thesuperdarkone2]

Josephine doesn't disapprove because of "authorization", she disapproves because of the danger, which the Herald is in just as much as at Thereinfal Redoubt. You don't know what Teagan approves or disapproves of, because the Venatori kicked him out of his own castle. It's a fair bet that he'd gladly take the group comprised of [former] Chantry forces if it meant ousting the evil wizards and giving it back to him. 

 

No one is acknowledging the Venatori as a legitimate group. The Inquisition entered the castle with the express intent of neutralizing a "hostile power", retaking Redcliffe and taking the mages away from them, or did you miss the Venatori agents getting their throats slit in the throne room? 

 

 

He never joined the Inquisition. He walked out of Val Royeaux at the heel of some holy thugs, presumably to get stomped on by a behemoth later. 

1) Not to mention that the templars never give you authorization to go to Therinfal. The Inquisition essentially threatens the templars with a bunch of nobles. Even if they did invite the Inquisition, I doubt the templars invited a bunch of nobles who threaten action against them.

 

Also, considering if you side with the mages, Teagan says that "Redcliffe remembers its savior", I'm willing to bet he supported you kicking out the Venatori

 

2) Don't forget to mention that if you conscript the templars, Barris stops having ANY relevance in the game.

[teh DRUMPf!!]

Go, Go, Go!

 

 

The mages in someone else's game are depending on you!! 

[Ashagar]

Well, something I should point out here is that there are many non-combatants within the mage faction, such as children and the elderly, and many mages who don't actually want to fight at all. You can't paint the whole group as murderous fanatics, so recruiting them for their sake could also be an argument.

 

Something that's always bugged me is the lore seems to make clear the templars are generally recruited at a very young age even if they don't take their final vows until much later... so how many child trainees got brought along when the Templars broke with the chantry and how many were force fed red lyrium.... Ugh, another source of nightmare fuel there like I needed more after envy.

 

Also any military order like the Templars would have lots of support staff, cooks, stable hands, armorers, blacksmiths and other staff that would be required to keep the group running smoothly. No matter how you look at it is a mess on either side. There are always going to be noncombatants on any side... well excluding the darkspawn that is.

 

It still ultimately boils down to what one considers to be the greatest risk, which side they think will be must helpful, wither you think suppressing magic would be more useful or pouring more magic into something you don't understand hoping you don't blow up or turn into a abomination and who you you trust the most... And to me that was admittedly Cassandra, Josephine and Cullen and not princess stabby stab of the stab kingdom. Which is admittedly why my Andrastian humans and stone following dwarf had a different choice than my elven inquisitor did. I imagine if I had a Avvar or Tevinter character they'd likely also have a different choice than what the southern andrastian humans and dwarf picked.

[Dai Grepher]

It is the best one available to him according entirely to you, working within the scope of a hypothetical we know for a fact isn't true. This is absolutely pointless.

We don't need to assume it has limits, we know it has limits, as of being in the Chantry... and as of still being alive to decide whether to leave or not.

Open a rift outside the castle walls, just like they did with the village. 

What is Ferelden going to blow the bridge with? Buckets of Lyrium? The castle isn't even limited to bridge access anymore, the landscape got retconned. 

I already did when I posted a figure derived from Dagna's assessment and the distance between Haven and Therinfal. You are free to try and prove otherwise anytime you'd like.

According entirely to fact. It's the reason why he invites the Herald there, it's the reason he sets his trap there. You know Redcliffe is a trap and that Alexius can go back in time. Therefore avoiding the trap is the best option, since any counter you have may have been accounted for already through time magic.

Alexius didn't know you were in the Chantry though. Alexius can only work off what he knows and what forces he has. He can go back in time when he sees you pass by Redcliffe, but go back to when? And do what once he gets there? He can go back to the Gull and the Lantern, but he thought he had to take Felix back to the castle to treat him. So after that? He doesn't know where you are. Before that? He has no forces to take you on. If he had the forces at that time, he would have just done that instead of send the invitation. The invitation proves he can only go back in time to before you leave Haven to go to either Redcliffe Castle or Therinfal if he wishes to attack you. Meaning everything leading up to you making your choice in Haven is safe. So, is it better to walk into the trap where Alexius has more control, or is it better to up your security and ride straight for Therinfal and take any potential fight out into the wild where the battlefield is more leveled? It makes no sense to walk into the trap where Alexius can simply go back in time to ensure that you won't succeed in any counter-strategy you have.

Here's an example. You go to Redcliffe and you gain the upper hand. Alexius observes how you did so and goes back in time. Alexius then makes preparations to counter your plan. Which means Alexius would not be surprised by Felix telling you everything, he would not be surprised by Dorian's involvement, and he wouldn't be surprised by the Inquisition scouts that infiltrated the castle. He would have a plan for all of them (drug Felix to make him sleep, have Fiona stay with him, have some extra Venatori seal off the rogues). He can do this because he controls the battlefield. But from your perspective you're trying your plan for the first time.

They didn't open that rift themselves. That opened at random partly because of time magic but mainly because of the Breach. After the Breach is closed with the help of the templars the rifts would stop appearing. Any rifts that appear before that can be closed by the Herald. So let there be rifts. Just makes the Herald more needed by Ferelden's crown.

The landscape wasn't reworked (retcons apply to storyline). Redcliffe Castle can be seen in the distance from the village. It is surrounded by water. The bridge is on the side of the castle we cannot see. Ferelden would blow the bridge with explosives, or else knock it out with trebuchets.

Okay, I'll prove it then. Dagna states that it takes 2 weeks and 4 days minimum to get to the Circle from Orzammar, and Alistair can comment that he gets the feeling Dagna's hobby is finding the quickest routes to the Circle. So, 18 days minimum, which necessarily means the fastest possible mode(s) of transportation as well as the most efficient routes. Agreed?

First, the road from Orzammar to the west side of Lake Calanhad is twisted and curved. It can be assumed this is because the road has to work its way down cliffs and rocky terrain. Second, once you reach the lake, you could take a ship to the Circle's island. This is the most efficient route that would take the minimum amount of time. Now, the question is, can horses get down these twisted roads? I would think that journey would be slow and hazardous. That's compared to a road on flat ground that would allow for a high-speed burn. So the distance between Orzammar and the west side of the lake is short (compared to going around the lake), but it also involves traversing uneven terrain. And this is of course assuming that Dagna calculated this to include a boat as opposed to traveling around the lake on land (most likely). This is also assuming she is correct. While I believe in Dagna's dedication and mathematical skills, she may not have been given the best of information. She has never left Orzammar at this point, so she would be relying on maps given to her by others, and the accuracy of maps is always in question in an era without satellites.

Now, the distance between Haven and Therinfal is greater, but it also provides for a straighter journey. The Inquisition could ride at high speeds along the Imperial Highway, travel in a straighter line, and possibly even travel at night since this is on a highway, not treacherous terrain. Figuring the boat ride across the lake takes about a day, if you uncoil the road from Orzammar to the lake and lay that across the road from Haven to Therinfal, and I'm just eyeballing this, it seems like three times the length. So three 17 day stretches is 51 days. So 1 month 21 days at the speed which you would travel from Orzammar to the lake. But now factor in high-speed travel. Figure 30mph on horse (gallop), compared to maybe moving at 5mph down slopes. So you're moving 6 times faster. Shorthand, that works out to 8.5 days. 51 days divided by 6 times the rate is 8.5 days.

Or, if you want the longer answer...

Figure you travel 12 hours a day total, 4 hours for rest stops and eating, 8 hours for sleep.

Orzammar to the west side of the lake = 17 days (the 1 day for the boat isn't counted since we need to know travel time by land.)

17 x 12 = 204 hours of travel.

Distance = Rate x Time

(T)204 travel hours x ( R )5mph = (D)1,020 miles from Orzammar to the west side of the lake.

Now for the distance from Haven to Therinfal.

1,020 miles x 3 = 3,060 miles (estimated).

And now the distance divided by rate.

Time = Distance ÷ Rate

(D)3,060 miles ÷ ( R )30mph = (T)102 travel hours.

Divide that by 12 hours since you can only travel 12 hours per day...

8.5 days.

Now don't quote me on the miles, because I don't know what BioWare figures Ferelden's size to be in comparison to our world, but 3,060 seems pretty far. The U.S./Mexican border is only 1,954 miles by comparison. So the mile calculation could use more review (ask the Game Theory guy, this is like drugs to him), but the time estimate is pretty solid. I mean, maybe Dagna is factoring in faster rates of travel along the Orzammar path at certain points, but for an estimate this works well enough. If anything, 1,020 miles seems way too long for Orzammar to the west side of Lake Calanhad. So maybe Dagna's rate of travel is like... 2mph or something, which would be 408 miles. That seems more realistic. But in that case the travel time to Therinfal is even less.
 

For that matter the "power" trait is more immersion breaking in that quest because it just translates into Orlesian noble alliance ASAP. No build up to get it besides completing random Hinterlands quests and requisitions.

At least in the mage quest you still have to infiltrate the castle with just the Inquisition as the small order you are supposed to be.

I rationalized it by slaying the Fereldan Frostback and then completing the "Celebrate the Dragon Slaying" operation on the Chore Table by hosting a party. That is sure to impress the Orlesian nobles, and it explains their presence in Haven when needed for the trip to Therinfal.
 

Even the children, who don't understand what's going on? Of course, it would have helped if they actually showed any children in the game...

Especially the children.    In fact, I'm sure the children were scared to go to Tevinter. Really, what kind of kid wouldn't run off to join the Inquisition? An evil Vint kid, that's what kind.

But seriously, that's sad and all, and some probably got killed, but oh well. There are plenty of other kids out there relying on the Inquisition's success, and that is better secured by avoiding the trap at Redcliffe Castle.
 

I know you didn't. Like I said, you tried and failed. You can't be honestly trying to sell anyone that they shouldn't go into Redcliffe castle and save it for Ferelden because... because? 
 
Silly troll attempt is silly.

I didn't try to make the point you're accusing me of trying to make. You're just imagining things.

My point was that Ferelden did not authorize the Inquisition to enter Redcliffe Castle. So whether they attacked the castle or just infiltrated in an attempt to launch a surprise attack on the Venatori, Ferelden did not authorize the Inquisition's involvement. So if its an act of war Josephine is worried about, infiltration or even answering the invitation is a provocation as well and could have easily been taken the wrong way by the crown.

You were just attempting to troll? Oh, okay then.
 

Josephine doesn't disapprove because of "authorization", she disapproves because of the danger, which the Herald is in just as much as at Thereinfal Redoubt. You don't know what Teagan approves or disapproves of, because the Venatori kicked him out of his own castle. It's a fair bet that he'd gladly take the group comprised of [former] Chantry forces if it meant ousting the evil wizards and giving it back to him.

No one is acknowledging the Venatori as a legitimate group. The Inquisition entered the castle with the express intent of neutralizing a "hostile power", retaking Redcliffe and taking the mages away from them, or did you miss the Venatori agents getting their throats slit in the throne room?

He never joined the Inquisition. He walked out of Val Royeaux at the heel of some holy thugs, presumably to get stomped on by a behemoth later.

Josephine mentions that an "Orlesian" Inquisition marching into Ferelden would be considered an act of war. So my point is, even going there to meet with the Magister could be misinterpreted by Ferelden's crown or Arl Teagan. They might consider it to be you giving the Magister legitimacy by meeting with him, even if it is to overthrow him, because the Magister invited you into a castle that was not his, and you accepted as if you were welcomed there by its true lord. I'm just arguing, if Josephine is so worried about angering Ferelden then answering the invitation should also be taken off the table, because like you wrote, we don't know what Teagan approves or disapproves of. We have not been given permission to intervene. Ferelden's crown was on its way to deal with the problem anyway. Any interference beforehand might cause offense. Better to go to Therinfal, where you have every right to intervene.

I know what the Inquisition went there for, but Ferelden doesn't know it. They might just see an "Orlesian" Inquisition infiltrating one of their castles, or possibly trying to ally with the mages that took over the castle. Better to just stay away and let Ferelden take their own castle back.

But Barris wanted to join the Inquisition. I remember him saying something when you arrive at Therinfal, that he was the one who sent word to Cullen. So even though he left, he still contacted the Inquisition in hopes of having the templars join.

[Dai Grepher]

1) Not to mention that the templars never give you authorization to go to Therinfal. The Inquisition essentially threatens the templars with a bunch of nobles. Even if they did invite the Inquisition, I doubt the templars invited a bunch of nobles who threaten action against them.
 
Also, considering if you side with the mages, Teagan says that "Redcliffe remembers its savior", I'm willing to bet he supported you kicking out the Venatori
 
2) Don't forget to mention that if you conscript the templars, Barris stops having ANY relevance in the game.

 

1. Therinfal is a Seeker base. The templars have no authority over it. Cassandra is a Seeker, and the Inquisition is part of the Seeker order. She and it have every right to be there.

 

Until the Council begins. Then it's "You established an armed presence in Ferelden territory!". Besides, the argument is about how Ferelden might interpret it, not how they did. This is supposed to be before you choose to go to Redcliffe or Therinfal, and you are deciding what is best.

 

2. He always appears in the Arbor Wilds fighting two behemoths.

[correctamundo]

The level of ridiculous just reached transcendency.

[The Baconer]

According entirely to fact.

 

No. 

 

Alexius didn't know you were in the Chantry though. Alexius can only work off what he knows and what forces he has. He can go back in time when he sees you pass by Redcliffe, but go back to when? And do what once he gets there? He can go back to the Gull and the Lantern, but he thought he had to take Felix back to the castle to treat him. So after that? He doesn't know where you are. Before that? He has no forces to take you on. If he had the forces at that time, he would have just done that instead of send the invitation. The invitation proves he can only go back in time to before you leave Haven to go to either Redcliffe Castle or Therinfal if he wishes to attack you. Meaning everything leading up to you making your choice in Haven is safe. So, is it better to walk into the trap where Alexius has more control, or is it better to up your security and ride straight for Therinfal and take any potential fight out into the wild where the battlefield is more leveled? It makes no sense to walk into the trap where Alexius can simply go back in time to ensure that you won't succeed in any counter-strategy you have.

 

I know that Alexius was not aware of the Chantry conversation, I meant that being able to leave Redcliffe village at all means he doesn't have full control over time magic. 

 

Yes, Alexius had forces, that isn't debatable. 

 

 

They didn't open that rift themselves. That opened at random partly because of time magic but mainly because of the Breach. After the Breach is closed with the help of the templars the rifts would stop appearing. Any rifts that appear before that can be closed by the Herald. So let there be rifts. Just makes the Herald more needed by Ferelden's crown.

 

Alexius literally opens rifts by himself during the boss fight. 

 

 

The landscape wasn't reworked (retcons apply to storyline). Redcliffe Castle can be seen in the distance from the village. It is surrounded by water. The bridge is on the side of the castle we cannot see. Ferelden would blow the bridge with explosives, or else knock it out with trebuchets.

 

No. The main entrance is visible, there is no bridge. 

 

And what explosives? Seriously, what explosives? Ferelden is going to go out-of-pocket for Lyrium bombs?

 

 

First, the road from Orzammar to the west side of Lake Calanhad is twisted and curved. 

 

Dude, that's a f***ing river. Orzammar itself is right next to the Imperial Highway. The Highway wouldn't even run all the way to Therinfal. 

 

As for the rest: All of this is junk. The distance figures cannot be worked into a specific number with our given knowledge. Your estimate assumes a constant 360 miles per day traveled. It's junk. 

 

Also, the Inquisition is not part of the Seeker Order. 

[Dai Grepher]

No.

 

Yes. You can't refute my argument. Alexius controls Redcliffe Castle. He does not control the road to Therinfal. Therefore he is at his strongest in Redcliffe Castle. Logically, it should be avoided.
 

I know that Alexius was not aware of the Chantry conversation, I meant that being able to leave Redcliffe village at all means he doesn't have full control over time magic.

Not necessarily. He may have been able to go back in time and stop you from leaving Redcliffe, but CHOSE not to because of something more important. Something like Felix being in need of medical attention.
 

Yes, Alexius had forces, that isn't debatable.

I'm not debating that he had some men loyal to him. My point is he did not have enough soldiers, mages, or assassins to beat you at the time you meet him in the Gull and the Lantern. He had some forces, but not a force large enough to beat you.

Suppose he does go back in time to the Gull and the Lantern and brings his forces. They enter the tavern and a fight breaks out. Maybe he wins, maybe he doesn't. Either way, he is under the impression that at this time Felix starts to falter because of his illness. So can he really afford to risk a battle at a time when Felix needs medical treatment?

It's too much to risk. And Alexius can't have Fiona getting caught up in it either. He also cannot let the Herald die before Corypheus is able to attempt to take the anchor from him. There are just too many variables working against Alexius at this point in time, and he doesn't have enough Venatori to beat the Herald. That is why he does not go back to that point in time.
 

Alexius literally opens rifts by himself during the boss fight.

Irrelevant. The boss fight is in a timeline where the Breach is unstable and larger, in a castle filled with red lyrium and where the Veil is thin. Alexius has also increased his own power over the course of a year. You cannot apply this to the present time when the Breach is stable, Alexius is much weaker, and the Veil is much stronger. Besides, there is no way for your Herald to know any of this at that point in time.
 

No. The main entrance is visible, there is no bridge.

An entrance is visible. Not the only entrance. Besides, if there is no bridge and the castle just sits on an unconnected island, then that still means the Venatori would be isolated. They would still starve.
 

And what explosives? Seriously, what explosives? Ferelden is going to go out-of-pocket for Lyrium bombs?

Yes. Placed in the right location they could destroy the foundations of the bridge and collapse it. Thus preventing any demons from coming across.
 

Dude, that's a f***ing river. Orzammar itself is right next to the Imperial Highway. The Highway wouldn't even run all the way to Therinfal.

I'm not referring to the river. I am referring to the white line next to it, which is the Imperial Highway.

(WARNING: Large file, remove spaces)

ht tp://vignette2.wikia.nocookie.n et/dragonage/images/8/80/ThedasMap.j pg/revision/latest/scale-to-width-down/1280?cb=20100721040624
 
I traced it from Orzammar, down through Gherlen's Pass, and to the west side of the lake across from the Circle's island.
 

As for the rest: All of this is junk. The distance figures cannot be worked into a specific number with our given knowledge. Your estimate assumes a constant 360 miles per day traveled. It's junk.

As I told you, do not quote me on the distance, since it is largely an unknown, and is unimportant. The point is that the math works out to travel time being short based on Dagna's calculation.

Now, I'm sure the actual distance is much shorter, but in that case so is the amount of time needed to get to Therinfal. So instead of 8.5 days it is probably something like 4 days.
 
And yes, I have 360 miles covered in 12 hours time. That's 30 miles per hour. Are you saying horses can't run 30 miles per hour?
 

Also, the Inquisition is not part of the Seeker Order.

Yes it is. The Inquisition is the Seeker Order. Justinia reestablished the Inquisition. That means Chantry Seekers and templars merge back into the original organization they were, which is the Inquisition. Cassandra has authority as a Seeker to be at Therinfal, and the rest of the Inquisition does as well.

[KaiserShep]

1. Therinfal is a Seeker base. The templars have no authority over it. Cassandra is a Seeker, and the Inquisition is part of the Seeker order. She and it have every right to be there.
 
Until the Council begins. Then it's "You established an armed presence in Ferelden territory!". Besides, the argument is about how Ferelden might interpret it, not how they did. This is supposed to be before you choose to go to Redcliffe or Therinfal, and you are deciding what is best.

Cassandra is no longer a member of the Seekers by the start of Inquisition, since they rebelled against the Chantry. Technically, Cassandra's position within the Chantry's ranks is debatable, though many still acknowledge her as the Left Hand of the Divine.

The Inquisition established an armed presence throughout the Hinterlands as well. This complaint rings hollow since it was absolutely necessary yet no one else had the capacity to do anything about it. Teagan is only complaining after the threat to Thedas was neutralized.

[robertthebard]

 

Yes. You can't refute my argument. Alexius controls Redcliffe Castle. He does not control the road to Therinfal. Therefore he is at his strongest in Redcliffe Castle. Logically, it should be avoided.
 

Not necessarily. He may have been able to go back in time and stop you from leaving Redcliffe, but CHOSE not to because of something more important. Something like Felix being in need of medical attention.
 

I'm not debating that he had some men loyal to him. My point is he did not have enough soldiers, mages, or assassins to beat you at the time you meet him in the Gull and the Lantern. He had some forces, but not a force large enough to beat you.

Suppose he does go back in time to the Gull and the Lantern and brings his forces. They enter the tavern and a fight breaks out. Maybe he wins, maybe he doesn't. Either way, he is under the impression that at this time Felix starts to falter because of his illness. So can he really afford to risk a battle at a time when Felix needs medical treatment?

It's too much to risk. And Alexius can't have Fiona getting caught up in it either. He also cannot let the Herald die before Corypheus is able to attempt to take the anchor from him. There are just too many variables working against Alexius at this point in time, and he doesn't have enough Venatori to beat the Herald. That is why he does not go back to that point in time.
 

Irrelevant. The boss fight is in a timeline where the Breach is unstable and larger, in a castle filled with red lyrium and where the Veil is thin. Alexius has also increased his own power over the course of a year. You cannot apply this to the present time when the Breach is stable, Alexius is much weaker, and the Veil is much stronger. Besides, there is no way for your Herald to know any of this at that point in time.
 

An entrance is visible. Not the only entrance. Besides, if there is no bridge and the castle just sits on an unconnected island, then that still means the Venatori would be isolated. They would still starve.

Yes. Placed in the right location they could destroy the foundations of the bridge and collapse it. Thus preventing any demons from coming across.
 

I'm not referring to the river. I am referring to the white line next to it, which is the Imperial Highway.

(WARNING: Large file)

http://vignette2.wik...=20100721040624

 

I traced it from Orzammar, down through Gherlen's Pass, and to the west side of the lake across from the Circle's island.
 

As I told you, do not quote me on the distance, since it is largely an unknown, and is unimportant. The point is that the math works out to travel time being short based on Dagna's calculation.

Now, I'm sure the actual distance is much shorter, but in that case so is the amount of time needed to get to Therinfal. So instead of 8.5 days it is probably something like 4 days.

 

And yes, I have 360 miles covered in 12 hours time. That's 30 miles per hour. Are you saying horses can't run 30 miles per hour?
 

Yes it is. The Inquisition is the Seeker Order. Justinia reestablished the Inquisition. That means Chantry Seekers and templars merge back into the original organization they were, which is the Inquisition. Cassandra has authority as a Seeker to be at Therinfal, and the rest of the Inquisition does as well.

I'm just going to point out a serious flaw in your logic here:  If Alexius' control of time magic is so great, then Felix being sick wouldn't matter, because "time travel".  Your logic seems to indicate that he'd only be capable of one action.  This is blatantly false, he could easily assign troops to deal with the Inquisitor and tend to Felix himself.  He would, after all, know before he did it that he'd have to do it.