314 réponses à ce sujet

[The Baconer]

Post.

We're supposed to believe that Alexius, hypothetically in a controllable Groundhog Day/Edge of Tomorrow situation, has thoroughly tested most conceivable approaches to engaging the Inquisitor, and has reasoned that Redcliffe castle is literally the only location that it could work successfully. Again, this is a hypothetical we know for a fact isn't true, and so the only point of discussing this at length is if we assume the Inquisitor follows this same train of thought to determine whether they should go to Therinfal or Redcliffe castle... and that is absolutely absurd.

As for his forces, he possesses one large enough to feasibly repel an attack by the Templars, and to evict the Arl while taking control of the entire village and castle.

Regarding Orzammar and the Imperial Highway: why you would try to define the road from Orzammar as "hazardous", despite being along the same highway you are using to determine a trip from Haven to Therinfal, and despite the path being no more twisted than the one that navigates around Lake Calendar from Haven, I can only assume a number of possibilities. Either you were initially mistaken in your assessment of the road that runs to and from Orzammar, or you are being intentionally dishonest in order to make a journey to Therinfal seem significantly shorter in spite of the significantly longer distance and the need to leave the Imperial Highway. It's probably the latter.

Regarding horses: No, I do not mean that horses can't gallop at 30 miles per hour, and you know that. You could run at, say, 7 miles an hour, yes?

Now, just do that for 12 hours straight, every day for over a week. Simple, right?

I would give you the "benefit" of the doubt and assume you are just being dishonest for the sake of your argument again, instead of genuinely thinking 360 miles per day is anywhere near a reasonable measurement... but I honestly don't know which one is worse.

[Dai Grepher]

Cassandra is no longer a member of the Seekers by the start of Inquisition, since they rebelled against the Chantry. Technically, Cassandra's position within the Chantry's ranks is debatable, though many still acknowledge her as the Left Hand of the Divine.

The Inquisition established an armed presence throughout the Hinterlands as well. This complaint rings hollow since it was absolutely necessary yet no one else had the capacity to do anything about it. Teagan is only complaining after the threat to Thedas was neutralized.

 

1. A fair point, though one I would still argue. Cassandra is one I would describe as a Seeker loyal to the Chantry. As opposed to Lucius, a Seeker who separated from the Chantry. Technically, both are Seekers despite their opposite choices. In that case I would argue that Therinfal belongs to the side that founded it. If the Seekers founded it before merging with the Chantry, then the non-Chantry Seekers might own it. If it was founded during the time when the Seekers swore to the Chantry, then I would say the Chantry at least has half ownership if not full ownership.

 

But even in this the issue is questionable. If the original order was the Inquisition, and merging with the Chantry is what split them into the Seekers and the Templars, then the Seekers simply leaving the Chantry does not make them the Inquisition again. The Chantry reestablishing the Inquisition makes for the Inquisition again. So it could be argued that the official Inquisition is in authority over Therinfal regardless of Lucius' rank, title, or affiliation.

 

In any event, Ferelden's crown has no problem with the Inquisition going to Therinfal. That's the point.

 

Also, Cassandra is the Right Hand. Leliana is the Left Hand.

 

2. Right. But the point is that the man will complain about anything. So at the time of choosing, it would probably be best to avoid Redcliffe Castle to avoid possibly angering the Arl, whom you know is handling the matter himself. Now I know there is no way to tell what angers Teagan or not at that point, but it is still wise to assume your going to the castle will be viewed negatively, as an act of interference in a sovereign nation's affairs.

[robertthebard]

1. A fair point, though one I would still argue. Cassandra is one I would describe as a Seeker loyal to the Chantry. As opposed to Lucius, a Seeker who separated from the Chantry. Technically, both are Seekers despite their opposite choices. In that case I would argue that Therinfal belongs to the side that founded it. If the Seekers founded it before merging with the Chantry, then the non-Chantry Seekers might own it. If it was founded during the time when the Seekers swore to the Chantry, then I would say the Chantry at least has half ownership if not full ownership.

 

But even in this the issue is questionable. If the original order was the Inquisition, and merging with the Chantry is what split them into the Seekers and the Templars, then the Seekers simply leaving the Chantry does not make them the Inquisition again. The Chantry reestablishing the Inquisition makes for the Inquisition again. So it could be argued that the official Inquisition is in authority over Therinfal regardless of Lucius' rank, title, or affiliation.

 

In any event, Ferelden's crown has no problem with the Inquisition going to Therinfal. That's the point.

 

Also, Cassandra is the Right Hand. Leliana is the Left Hand.

 

2. Right. But the point is that the man will complain about anything. So at the time of choosing, it would probably be best to avoid Redcliffe Castle to avoid possibly angering the Arl, whom you know is handling the matter himself. Now I know there is no way to tell what angers Teagan or not at that point, but it is still wise to assume your going to the castle will be viewed negatively, as an act of interference in a sovereign nation's affairs.

Here's yet another flaw:  The crown doesn't have a problem with you going to Redcliffe, at the time.  They have a problem with what Fiona did.  You weren't involved in that decision, it was already made when you got there.

[Dai Grepher]

I'm just going to point out a serious flaw in your logic here:  If Alexius' control of time magic is so great, then Felix being sick wouldn't matter, because "time travel".  Your logic seems to indicate that he'd only be capable of one action.  This is blatantly false, he could easily assign troops to deal with the Inquisitor and tend to Felix himself.  He would, after all, know before he did it that he'd have to do it.

 

Correct. And suppose Alexius did this and his men failed. Then what? He would have to go back in time again to undo the failed attempt. In which case he would be right back where he started, and he would still have to treat Felix when the time came.

 

Just because Alexius can reload his previous save doesn't mean the sequence of events change for him. It also doesn't give him more forces with which to capture the Herald.

[Dai Grepher]

Here's yet another flaw:  The crown doesn't have a problem with you going to Redcliffe, at the time.  They have a problem with what Fiona did.  You weren't involved in that decision, it was already made when you got there.

 

You are arguing after the fact though. This discussion is about the point in time before you know how Ferelden will react to the Inquisition's interference. This is about the choice to go to Redcliffe Castle or Therinfal Redoubt. If you go to the castle, you run the risk of upsetting Ferelden's crown or Arl Teagan. If you go to Therinfal, you run no such risk.

[Knight of Dane]

I rationalized it by slaying the Fereldan Frostback and then completing the "Celebrate the Dragon Slaying" operation on the Chore Table by hosting a party. That is sure to impress the Orlesian nobles, and it explains their presence in Haven when needed for the trip to Therinfal.

 

Okay, but you are not supposed to do that. Telling the story properly is Biowares job, not thier audience.

[Dai Grepher]

We're supposed to believe that Alexius, hypothetically in a controllable Groundhog Day/Edge of Tomorrow situation, has thoroughly tested most conceivable approaches to engaging the Inquisitor

No, the Herald is logically supposed to assume this. From our perspective, that is we the players, we can conclude that Alexius likely only tested this out theoretically by imagining what would happen if he attempted to go back in time and attack the Herald at the Gull and the Lantern. He likely concluded that it would not have worked, and so he did not make the attempt.
 

and has reasoned that Redcliffe castle is literally the only location that it could work successfully.

Maybe not the ONLY place, but certainly the BEST place. It had the highest chance of success for Alexius.
 

Again, this is a hypothetical we know for a fact isn't true, and so the only point of discussing this at length is if we assume the Inquisitor follows this same train of thought to determine whether they should go to Therinfal or Redcliffe castle... and that is absolutely absurd.

Fine. All you need to do then is reduce it to its most simplistic form. Redcliffe Castle is a trap. Best to avoid the trap and let Ferelden crush Alexius.
 

As for his forces, he possesses one large enough to feasibly repel an attack by the Templars, and to evict the Arl while taking control of the entire village and castle.

We don't know the circumstances of Teagan's ousting or Fiona being saved from templars. Perhaps Redcliffe's knights were out protecting the countryside, and Alexius took the castle by magic, or just shut Teagan out with the castle's own fortifications.
 

Regarding Orzammar and the Imperial Highway: why you would try to define the road from Orzammar as "hazardous", despite being along the same highway you are using to determine a trip from Haven to Therinfal, and despite the path being no more twisted than the one that navigates around Lake Calendar from Haven, I can only assume a number of possibilities. Either you were initially mistaken in your assessment of the road that runs to and from Orzammar, or you are being intentionally dishonest in order to make a journey to Therinfal seem significantly shorter in spite of the significantly longer distance and the need to leave the Imperial Highway. It's probably the latter.

Or you could have just asked why I think the road from Orzammar to the lake is hazardous. But that's cool Baconer, assume the worst about me.

Observe the part where it turns into a hairpin curv. That is usually indicative of a cliff side. The road has to slope down one way, turn sharply back, and the slope down the other way in order to get down the cliff. Orzammar's entrance is also located in a mountainous area.
 

Regarding horses: No, I do not mean that horses can't gallop at 30 miles per hour, and you know that. You could run at, say, 7 miles an hour, yes?

Now, just do that for 12 hours straight, every day for over a week. Simple, right?

But I didn't write 12 hours straight. I allotted 4 hours for rests and eating, and 8 hours for sleep.

[Dai Grepher]

Okay, but you are not supposed to do that. Telling the story properly is Biowares job, not thier audience.

 

I most certainly agree that it's BioWare's job. But still, that's how I played mine.

[SonnyKohler]

But the templars are a bunch of a**hol** just like the BoS in Fallout.

 

Do not and will not ever play the paramilitary powermad jerks in any game, particularly if they have anything to do with religiosity.  Would rather play the foolish underdog.

[The Baconer]

No, the Herald is logically supposed to assume this. From our perspective, that is we the players, we can conclude that Alexius likely only tested this out theoretically by imagining what would happen if he attempted to go back in time and attack the Herald at the Gull and the Lantern. He likely concluded that it would not have worked, and so he did not make the attempt.


Fine. All you need to do then is reduce it to its most simplistic form. Redcliffe Castle is a trap. Best to avoid the trap and let Ferelden crush Alexius.


We don't know the circumstances of Teagan's ousting or Fiona being saved from templars. Perhaps Redcliffe's knights were out protecting the countryside, and Alexius took the castle by magic, or just shut Teagan out with the castle's own fortifications.


Or you could have just asked why I think the road from Orzammar to the lake is hazardous. But that's cool Baconer, assume the worst about me.

Observe the part where it turns into a hairpin curv. That is usually indicative of a cliff side. The road has to slope down one way, turn sharply back, and the slope down the other way in order to get down the cliff. Orzammar's entrance is also located in a mountainous area.


But I didn't write 12 hours straight. I allotted 4 hours for rests and eating, and 8 hours for sleep.

And the Inquisitor has no reason to assume this any longer after Chantry conversation. Not that they would assume it before, as that would be before Dorian tells them about time magic in the first place.

Better, yet far from objective.


We do know a general context. The Venatori force arrived on the pretense of protecting the mages from a templar attack. Alexius then sent Teagan away and took control of the Arling.

Why would this descent be more hazardous than a trip from Haven, which is also located on the Frostbacks, and doesn't even have the advantage of quick access to the Highway, which Orzammar does. Next, why would this reduce the trip to a constant 2-5 mph, considering it eventually levels off around Lake Calenhad. Your projection of Haven to Therinfal, on the other hand, somehow maintains a constant 30mph, even though it is also coming from a mountainous region, and goes off the highway in two different places. This is why I assume the worst of you.

Because that is so much more reasonable. I forgot all those times someone rode a horse 360 miles a day for a week.

[Dai Grepher]

And the Inquisitor has no reason to assume this any longer after Chantry conversation. Not that they would assume it before, as that would be before Dorian tells them about time magic in the first place.

Better, yet far from objective.

We do know a general context. The Venatori force arrived on the pretense of protecting the mages from a templar attack. Alexius then sent Teagan away and took control of the Arling.

Why would this descent be more hazardous than a trip from Haven, which is also located on the Frostbacks, and doesn't even have the advantage of quick access to the Highway, which Orzammar does. Next, why would this reduce the trip to a constant 2-5 mph, considering it eventually levels off around Lake Calenhad. Your projection of Haven to Therinfal, on the other hand, somehow maintains a constant 30mph, even though it is also coming from a mountainous region, and goes off the highway in two different places. This is why I assume the worst of you.

Because that is so much more reasonable. I forgot all those times someone rode a horse 360 miles a day for a week.

 

I didn't suggest it would be before Dorian explains it. The Herald has every reason to assume it if you listen to the conversation with Dorian. You are in fact living in an altered timeline. You were supposed to have just met with Fiona and worked out an agreement to close the Breach. But none of what you experienced in that original timeline exists, because Alexius went back in time. So you have already been affected. That should give your Herald pause to consider just how dangerous time magic is, especially when Dorian states it could unravel all of existence.

 

It is objective fact. You know Alexius has gone back in time to prevent you from succeeding already. Your Herald has every reason to assume Alexius will have done it again if you go to Redcliffe. You can't refute this fact.

 

You know nothing of the specifics. How did Alexius just send Teagan away?

 

It would be more hazardous because of the layout of the road. The road to Haven is straighter. That indicates a shallower slope. Also keep in mind that many people have made pilgrimages to Haven since the Hero of Ferelden found it. The road to Haven would have been well traveled by 9:41. And I already stated that the rate of travel may increase to the lake once the hazardous terrain is passed. This was just an average estimate to prove that this wouldn't take months, as you claimed, but rather days. And as I told you twice now, the mile estimate is likely too high anyway.

 

After looking it up online, the best breed for these circumstances can travel 100 miles in 17 hours on good terrain at about 5.88mph. A far cry from 360 miles per day to be sure. However, the Inquisition could have easily arranged this so that they could simply change horses at certain destinations and continue on. So if you really want to keep arguing this losing point of yours, we can. Just know that the miles traveled will be examined more closely and the distance will likely be drastically reduced, thus reducing the number of days it will take. My distance estimation was an overestimate, which was actually more demanding on my claim, but even working with the 3,060 mile number, at 6 mph for 12 hours a day, that would be 42.5 days. Not the "months" that you claimed.

 

So do you want to admit you were wrong, or should I prove you wrong again?

[BSpud]

You are in fact living in an altered timeline. You were supposed to have just met with Fiona and worked out an agreement to close the Breach. But none of what you experienced in that original timeline exists, because Alexius went back in time. So you have already been affected. That should give your Herald pause to consider just how dangerous time magic is, especially when Dorian states it could unravel all of existence.

 

It is objective fact. You know Alexius has gone back in time to prevent you from succeeding already. Your Herald has every reason to assume Alexius will have done it again if you go to Redcliffe. You can't refute this fact.

 

You're approaching it too much like a 21st Century person who is comfortable and familiar with the notion of time travel. If your Inq is a mage, I can see him/her adjusting and adapting to all this crazy time travel business better. Anyone else should have some difficulty wrapping their heads around the implications. DA has a very contemporary bent to it, but not so much that anyone would be all that savvy about the idea of timelines, alternate timelines, first causes, and paradoxes, etc.

[Dai Grepher]

You're approaching it too much like a 21st Century person who is comfortable and familiar with the notion of time travel. If your Inq is a mage, I can see him/her adjusting and adapting to all this crazy time travel business better. Anyone else should have some difficulty wrapping their heads around the implications. DA has a very contemporary bent to it, but not so much that anyone would be all that savvy about the idea of timelines, alternate timelines, first causes, and paradoxes, etc.

 

Mine was a mage. But I get what you're saying. Some Herald's would not understand the dynamics of the situation. Still, in that case, wouldn't such Heralds elect to not even try to mess with it? Like, oh crap, I don't even understand time magic. No way am I going to attack someone who can wield it.

[BSpud]

I think that'd be one of the reasons not to do IHW, sure (depending on that particular Herald's tolerance for dealing with the barely comprehensible).

[The Baconer]

I didn't suggest it would be before Dorian explains it. The Herald has every reason to assume it if you listen to the conversation with Dorian. You are in fact living in an altered timeline. You were supposed to have just met with Fiona and worked out an agreement to close the Breach. But none of what you experienced in that original timeline exists, because Alexius went back in time. So you have already been affected. That should give your Herald pause to consider just how dangerous time magic is, especially when Dorian states it could unravel all of existence.

It is objective fact. You know Alexius has gone back in time to prevent you from succeeding already. Your Herald has every reason to assume Alexius will have done it again if you go to Redcliffe. You can't refute this fact.

You know nothing of the specifics. How did Alexius just send Teagan away?

So now one has to decide if you would rather try to stop this magic that could unravel all existence now, or risk letting it go unchecked for a not-insignificant amount of time while you go to the Templars for support. A gambit indeed.

We know Alexius sent Teagan packing because that is what the NPCS tell us.

[The Baconer]

It would be more hazardous because of the layout of the road. The road to Haven is straighter. That indicates a shallower slope. Also keep in mind that many people have made pilgrimages to Haven since the Hero of Ferelden found it. The road to Haven would have been well traveled by 9:41. And I already stated that the rate of travel may increase to the lake once the hazardous terrain is passed. This was just an average estimate to prove that this wouldn't take months, as you claimed, but rather days. And as I told you twice now, the mile estimate is likely too high anyway.

After looking it up online, the best breed for these circumstances can travel 100 miles in 17 hours on good terrain at about 5.88mph. A far cry from 360 miles per day to be sure. However, the Inquisition could have easily arranged this so that they could simply change horses at certain destinations and continue on. So if you really want to keep arguing this losing point of yours, we can. Just know that the miles traveled will be examined more closely and the distance will likely be drastically reduced, thus reducing the number of days it will take. My distance estimation was an overestimate, which was actually more demanding on my claim, but even working with the 3,060 mile number, at 6 mph for 12 hours a day, that would be 42.5 days. Not the "months" that you claimed.

So do you want to admit you were wrong, or should I prove you wrong again?

"I admit my calculations were off by hundreds of miles per day and over a month when accounting for time... but you are the one who is wrong! You're arguing a losing point! Admit it!"

It's all the same to me Dai Grepher. You may continue proving me "wrong" for however long your capacity for embarrassment will allow.

[robertthebard]

You are arguing after the fact though. This discussion is about the point in time before you know how Ferelden will react to the Inquisition's interference. This is about the choice to go to Redcliffe Castle or Therinfal Redoubt. If you go to the castle, you run the risk of upsetting Ferelden's crown or Arl Teagan. If you go to Therinfal, you run no such risk.

I'm arguing right at the time that Ferelden discovers your interference.  They don't say "What the hell are you doing in our castle" when they come in, whomever it may be, they call Fiona for her actions.  This is in the game, at the time that you conclude the quest.  It's not getting ready to start Tresspasser and having them show up and cuss you out for kicking Tevinter out of Redcliffe, which never happens, btw, they get mad about a keep you took though.

 

Also, regarding your other reply to me:  He can't go back in time if you defeat him.  His time traveling days are over.  I come away with the impression that all this time travel stuff is boggling your mind, but if you defeat him, which you do, then he can no longer traverse back and stop you from defeating him.  You have his amulet, not him.  He's done.

[DreamSever]

I prefer having dorians banter in hushed whispers to cole yet the templars you save are one in a hundred, loved barris more than fiona but long term, allying mages may show thedas to trust mages more. Its tough and i admit that i sat for 2 hours deciding

[Dai Grepher]

I'm arguing right at the time that Ferelden discovers your interference.  They don't say "What the hell are you doing in our castle" when they come in, whomever it may be, they call Fiona for her actions.  This is in the game, at the time that you conclude the quest.  It's not getting ready to start Tresspasser and having them show up and cuss you out for kicking Tevinter out of Redcliffe, which never happens, btw, they get mad about a keep you took though.
 
Also, regarding your other reply to me:  He can't go back in time if you defeat him.  His time traveling days are over.  I come away with the impression that all this time travel stuff is boggling your mind, but if you defeat him, which you do, then he can no longer traverse back and stop you from defeating him.  You have his amulet, not him.  He's done.

Yes, you are arguing after the fact. That's not what the discussion was about.

If you don't take the Keep, Teagan complains about your "armed presence" in the Hinterlands outside Redcliffe instead.

But that's if you defeat him, which you can't know for sure will be successful. And you didn't know about the amulet until he pulled it out.

[robertthebard]

Yes, you are arguing after the fact. That's not what the discussion was about.

If you don't take the Keep, Teagan complains about your "armed presence" in the Hinterlands outside Redcliffe instead.

But that's if you defeat him, which you can't know for sure will be successful. And you didn't know about the amulet until he pulled it out.

It doesn't matter what I know or don't know.  If I defeat him, he can't travel in time.  We do know about the amulet, however, it's how we got back in the first place.

 

The "but you have to do the quest to know" is sort of irrelevant.  No where is it indicated that Ferelden will go to war with you for taking Tevinter out.  They do point out that it could be viewed that way if you in force.  That's why you don't go in force, but send a small force through the escape tunnel.

[AlanC9]

Hey, isn't Alexius' mysterious death if you pick CotJ an awfully big plot hole?

[sniper_arrow]

Hey, isn't Alexius' mysterious death if you pick CotJ an awfully big plot hole?

 

There was an indication that Corypheus killed him off-screen.

[fhs33721]

Hey, isn't Alexius' mysterious death if you pick CotJ an awfully big plot hole?

Nah, It can be easily imagined what has most likely happened to him. Corypheus is after all a villain that seems to be very fond of the "You have failed me." trope.

[Dean_the_Young]

Hey, isn't Alexius' mysterious death if you pick CotJ an awfully big plot hole?

 

 

There was an indication that Corypheus killed him off-screen.

 

This. I'm trying to remember the source, but it basically amounted to that Alexius sold his plan and cooperation on grounds that he'd catch the Inquisitor. He didn't, and Corypheus was angry to lose the Templars, and so killed him for the failure.

[AlanC9]

My point was more that Corypheus doing that was really silly, since he seems to have lost the time-travel magic when he did so.