No, you close it. That's what everyone is celebrating when Cory attacks. He reopens it at the end of the game, trying to suck the whole world in.
No, you don't. Just like you don't close it the first time in Wrath of Heaven. You can tell quite easily because the sky doesn't look the same when you seal it after recruiting the mages and templars and after you seal it using the full power of the anchor as augmented by the foci Corypheus took from Solas.
What you do after Haven is a stop-gap.
I feel compelled to post:
*snip*
And, of course, the ambient music that works phenomenally well with Red Templars:
One thing Trevor Morris did very well in DA:I is remix his tracks for the scene. You really see his music shine in that regard in In Your Heart Shall Burn and Trespasser.
Agreed. And thanks, I couldn't find the ambient version!
Yes, they had.
No. They really weren't. If they had been "crushed" then why would the Inquisition even have seen them as a viable option? Why would the Templars have agreed to the Conclave? Why would there have even been a Conclave? Why was the Divine, if she had lived, prepared to call another Inquisition if the result of the war was a forgone conclusion? The notion that anyone was "crushed" is in complete opposition to the games premise and set up and various individuals throughout the game.
No. They really weren't. If they had been "crushed" then why would the Inquisition even have seen them as a viable option? Why would the Templars have agreed to the Conclave? Why would there have even been a Conclave? Why was the Divine, if she had lived, prepared to call another Inquisition if the result of the war was a forgone conclusion? The notion that anyone was "crushed" is in complete opposition to the games premise and set up and various individuals throughout the game.
"we are losing this war"
-Fiona
"we are losing this war"
-Fiona
Fiona was being manipulated by Time Magic and misinformation. Others were not.
"They envisioned the war over quickly; a single battle that would see the mages' resolve crumble, after which they would meekly return to confinement. That did not happen. This conflict could drag on forever, with advantage on neither side. Both templars and mages see this, and thus they have agreed to come to the Conclave." - Codex Entry: The Conclave Divine Justinia V
"This war could last forever." - Cassandra Pentaghast
"By defying Meredith and our Order, Hawke became a beacon for mage rebellion, that gave the mages hope, rallied them. They fought back. And here we now stand, on the eve of Divine Conclave, seeking peace before their rebellion destroys us all." - Knight-Commander Marteu
Fiona was being manipulated by Time Magic and misinformation. Others were not.
This. People either fail to understand or refuse to understand that when someone messes with time and performs time travel, it usually results in alternate timelines where the same people are different.
As I explained previously, Leliana in the Dark Future is not the Leliana we know because we are in a different timeline thanks to Alexius. Similarly, the companions trapped in the dungeons are not the companions we know because they are in a different timeline, a different reality. The Fiona we see in Val Royeaux, the Fiona we meet in the Redcliffe Castle and the Fiona we meet in the Dark Future are three different people from three different timelines, courtesy of time magic by Alexius.
For reference, think of J.J. Abrams' Star Trek movies. In the first one, Spock says that Nero's meddling with the timeline has created a completely different / alternate timeline where the fate of everyone in it have been altered, making them different people. Heck, we get to meet two very different Spock in the movie.
The Rebel Mages were manipulated by one of the, if not the most fundamental aspect of reality - Time. By contrast, the Templars were manipulated by the one of the many things they are supposed to fight - Demons. In addition, the Templars were manipulated by their order's framework - That is, they follow order from superiors without question.
So let's weigh those two:- Reality Altering Time Magic vs. Demons & Inherent Flaw Within Command Structure.
Couple this with the fact that Redcliffe is close to Haven, that we have (or rather Leliana has) an intimate knowledge of the castle and with the fact that it is under the control of Tevinter Magister. On the other hand, we have Templars in Therinfal Redoubt, a secluded training location far from Haven / far from civilization for that matter, which quite frankly looks like a form of training exercise of sorts and the requirement to meet them is far more demanding (we have to recruit nobles)
There is no contest - Mage path is superior.
Poppycock, neither mission is objectively superior. There are risks and chances with either but no superiority.
By its very nature time travel is self-defeating because for one thing if you went back in time to change something then you wouldn't have needed to go back in time in the first place therefore causing a paradox, its pointedly why Alexis kept failing and why what Nero did was impossible in the first place. Its also noted in game that the time distortions only happen in and around redcliff where Alexis is and which the Fereldan army is apparently going to be rightfully marching on to deal with the mages treacherous act.
Also with Redcliff castle, we know we would be walking into a trap in enemy controlled fortress utterly dependent on Leilana getting a small squad to help you, at the right time, and if Leilana fails either by being caught or delayed then all would be lost and the elder one has you at his mercy.
On the other hand when going to the rebout its not known what is going on but you at least have some form of local support and in theory at least at least some of the nobles brought along could defend themselves. As for the demon its pointed out in game that only senior high ranking Templars can see envy demons for what they are which is why Corypheus gambit was only possible by the Templar leadership being wiped out at the conclave and why the Knight-Vigilant was murdered after surviving the conclave explosion.
I think both pathes are viable decisions.
What I dont like about them though is how they define whether you get Calpernia or Samson as secondary villain.
I vastly prefer Calpernia, so I'm not really willing to make that sacrifice by playing the Mage route.
They should've given us both Samson and Calpernia.
Poppycock, neither mission is objectively superior. There are risks and chances with either but no superiority.
By its very nature time travel is self-defeating because for one thing if you went back in time to change something then you wouldn't have needed to go back in time in the first place therefore causing a paradox, its pointedly why Alexis kept failing and why what Nero did was impossible in the first place. Its also noted in game that the time distortions only happen in and around redcliff where Alexis is and which the Fereldan army is apparently going to be rightfully marching on to deal with the mages treacherous act.
Also with Redcliff castle, we know we would be walking into a trap in enemy controlled fortress utterly dependent on Leilana getting a small squad to help you, at the right time, and if Leilana fails either by being caught or delayed then all would be lost and the elder one has you at his mercy.
On the other hand when going to the rebout its not known what is going on but you at least have some form of local support and in theory at least at least some of the nobles brought along could defend themselves. As for the demon its pointed out in game that only senior high ranking Templars can see envy demons for what they are which is why Corypheus gambit was only possible by the Templar leadership being wiped out at the conclave and why the Knight-Vigilant was murdered after surviving the conclave explosion.
Did you forget how going to Therinfal was a trap too and the only reason envy didn't possess you was because Cole just happened to be nearby?
No. They really weren't. If they had been "crushed" then why would the Inquisition even have seen them as a viable option?
Because the Inquisition wants to close the Breach, not win the mage's war for them by defeating the Templars in battle.
Cullen reacts shocked when the Templars attack and we know they only did it because of Corypheus.
Why would the Templars have agreed to the Conclave? Why would there have even been a Conclave? Why was the Divine, if she had lived, prepared to call another Inquisition if the result of the war was a forgone conclusion?
I have already addressed this. Would it kill you to give more than a couple of minutes thought to what the people who are replying to you have said?
For politeness' sake if nothing else.
Ferelden was sheltering the mages and the Templars did not dare initiate hostilities against a nation state. Therefore, they were locked into a situation where neither side could defeat the other hence why a Conclave was needed.
Fiona was being manipulated by Time Magic and misinformation. Others were not.
"They envisioned the war over quickly; a single battle that would see the mages' resolve crumble, after which they would meekly return to confinement. That did not happen. This conflict could drag on forever, with advantage on neither side. Both templars and mages see this, and thus they have agreed to come to the Conclave." - Codex Entry: The Conclave Divine Justinia V
"This war could last forever." - Cassandra Pentaghast
"By defying Meredith and our Order, Hawke became a beacon for mage rebellion, that gave the mages hope, rallied them. They fought back. And here we now stand, on the eve of Divine Conclave, seeking peace before their rebellion destroys us all." - Knight-Commander Marteu
Ok fine, what misinformation was this?
All of what you quoted is not evidence of misinformation being given to Fiona. It's all evidence of the deadlock which was caused by Ferelden and Ferelden only as I already explained.
So, what misinformation was Fiona given regarding the tactical advantages of the Templars?
From where I am sitting, the Templars control their own fortresses such as Therinfall Redoubt whereas the mages have been forced to retreat and seek refuge in a town that they don't even control.
The Templars are invited to Val Royeaux by both the Chantry and the Nobility whereas the mages have found closed doors anywhere but Redcliff.
The leader of the mage rebellion herself admits that they are losing and would rather see her people as indentured servants of the number one enemy of Southern Thedas than fight the Templars again.
Now, you say that Fiona has been given misinformation. Ok, what misinformation?
Was she told that the Templars have conquered mage-held fortresses where in reality these holdouts still stand?
Was the number of Templar forces reported to her exaggerated?
Was she told that her agents amidst the courts of Thedas have been discredited by Templars whereas they can still manipulated people in their favor?
If the only misinformation Fiona was given was "The Templars are going to attack Redcliff" when we know they aren't, then the fact remains that Fiona believed the mages were so doomed that even Ferelden couldn't or wouldn't protect them and thus chose to risk Tevinter rather than fight the Templars again.
Switching gears, I'm always confused b y the rationales that get thrown around for choosing the templars vs. mages. It always seemed to me that there was a strong case that the discovery of Tevinters and time magic weighed for going to the templars, despite their being jerks - an invasion of Tevinter cultists using magic never before seen in Thedas seems like a pretty good argument in favour of recruiting templars, even as a mage.
Switching gears, I'm always confused b y the rationales that get thrown around for choosing the templars vs. mages. It always seemed to me that there was a strong case that the discovery of Tevinters and time magic weighed for going to the templars, despite their being jerks - an invasion of Tevinter cultists using magic never before seen in Thedas seems like a pretty good argument in favour of recruiting templars, even as a mage.
Except your advisors straight up tell you the Venatori are mobilizing for war and will be gone by the time you manage to get the templars.
Thus, dealing with the venatori immediately is more pressing since there is no indication anything is going on with the templars apart from them being douchebags.
Did you forget how going to Therinfal was a trap too and the only reason envy didn't possess you was because Cole just happened to be nearby?
But that was a unknown trap while redcliff you knew you were walking into a trap in a known enemy stronghold.
Because the Inquisition wants to close the Breach, not win the mage's war for them by defeating the Templars in battle.
Cullen reacts shocked when the Templars attack and we know they only did it because of Corypheus.
I have already addressed this. Would it kill you to give more than a couple of minutes thought to what the people who are replying to you have said?
For politeness' sake if nothing else.
Ferelden was sheltering the mages and the Templars did not dare initiate hostilities against a nation state. Therefore, they were locked into a situation where neither side could defeat the other hence why a Conclave was needed.
Ok fine, what misinformation was this?
All of what you quoted is not evidence of misinformation being given to Fiona. It's all evidence of the deadlock which was caused by Ferelden and Ferelden only as I already explained.
So, what misinformation was Fiona given regarding the tactical advantages of the Templars?
From where I am sitting, the Templars control their own fortresses such as Therinfall Redoubt whereas the mages have been forced to retreat and seek refuge in a town that they don't even control.
The Templars are invited to Val Royeaux by both the Chantry and the Nobility whereas the mages have found closed doors anywhere but Redcliff.
The leader of the mage rebellion herself admits that they are losing and would rather see her people as indentured servants of the number one enemy of Southern Thedas than fight the Templars again.
Now, you say that Fiona has been given misinformation. Ok, what misinformation?
Was she told that the Templars have conquered mage-held fortresses where in reality these holdouts still stand?
Was the number of Templar forces reported to her exaggerated?
Was she told that her agents amidst the courts of Thedas have been discredited by Templars whereas they can still manipulated people in their favor?
If the only misinformation Fiona was given was "The Templars are going to attack Redcliff" when we know they aren't, then the fact remains that Fiona believed the mages were so doomed that even Ferelden couldn't or wouldn't protect them and thus chose to risk Tevinter rather than fight the Templars again.
Where is it stated that the Templars weren't going to attack Redcliffe? Do you have some codex entries, or quotes? Or, more likely, is it something that you've told yourself to justify a choice that needs no justification? There were battles in the Mage/Templar war going on just outside the gate, right on top of the hill as you head to Redcliffe, so what's to stop them? Disapproval of a monarch? They aren't even caring if they have the approval of the Chantry, the institution that's supposed to have full control of both. Why would they care what one country thinks? I mean, it's not like we didn't learn in Origins that Templars are "above the law", so while I'm seeing you saying they cared about what the Fereldan Monarch thought, I'm not seeing it presented anywhere in game. The only time "act of war" is brought up is when a full frontal assault on the castle is considered in the war room, and that by an organization that is outside of anyone's jurisdiction but their own, the Inquisition.
At the time of this decision, you are an outlaw band. The Chantry has denounced you, and you have next to no political clout to wield anywhere. The only people that recognize that you have any clout whatsoever are your people.
But that was a unknown trap while redcliff you knew you were walking into a trap in a known enemy stronghold.
Did you have a different conversation in Val Royeaux than I did? Did one of the Templars not punch the Chantry sister out right in front of you? From listening to the Lord Seeker I wasn't convinced that it was a safe bet to head there, and what do you know, when you go, you not only spring a trap, but get a few nobles killed doing so. In so far as potential allies go, Redcliffe at least has the advantage of the only forces being in danger are your own. Knowing it's a trap is superior than finding out the hard way.
Except your advisors straight up tell you the Venatori are mobilizing for war and will be gone by the time you manage to get the templars.
Thus, dealing with the venatori immediately is more pressing since there is no indication anything is going on with the templars apart from them being douchebags.
It doesn't matter whether they'll be gone - it matters whether you think you can fight them. It's not about it being pressing- it's about it being feasible. The risk of the plan working vs. the chance the mages will be around and, if not (and as far as you know at the time) coming back with the entire might of the templars behind you.
It doesn't matter whether they'll be gone - it matters whether you think you can fight them. It's not about it being pressing- it's about it being feasible. The risk of the plan working vs. the chance the mages will be around and, if not (and as far as you know at the time) coming back with the entire might of the templars behind you.
Are you of the erroneous opinion that Templars could crush the mages out of hand as well? If so, why would you hesitate to go to Redcliffe, you do have Templars in your ranks. You know from Dorian that only Alexius can use the magic. So it's only one mage that you have to crush, surely, if you believe that the Templars could crush the mages, crushing one would be no problem at all?
Misinterpretation of facts can lead to big arguments later, such as "the breach isn't closed, and the people of Haven were overreacting when they had the "The Herald saved the world" party in Haven. But the sky, did you see the sky? Yeah, I saw it, no Breach. What I also saw was the animation when you get back to the War Room after you wrap up Mythal's temple, and how you see him reopen, and comment on the fact that he has reopened the Breach. I know we have to pretend that didn't happen, but it did. I believe the line runs along the lines of "I have to close it again".
I've observed how in game events have to be ignored when they're "inconvenient" to a position. However, I choose to not ignore them. I can't. They happened.
Where is it stated that the Templars weren't going to attack Redcliffe? Do you have some codex entries, or quotes?
The fact that they haven't attacked it in the six months the mages have been living there, for one.
http://dragonage.wik...n_Anora_Mac_Tir
And the fact that the Templars were ordered to gather at Therinfall Redoubt which is nowhere near Redcliffe.
There were battles in the Mage/Templar war going on just outside the gate, right on top of the hill as you head to Redcliffe, so what's to stop them?
Both the Templars and mages fighting in the Hinterlands are offshoots who split from their main groups. The Templars in particular refused to obey the order to disengage and gather at Therinfall.
Disapproval of a monarch? They aren't even caring if they have the approval of the Chantry, the institution that's supposed to have full control of both. Why would they care what one country thinks? I mean, it's not like we didn't learn in Origins that Templars are "above the law", so while I'm seeing you saying they cared about what the Fereldan Monarch thought, I'm not seeing it presented anywhere in game.
If the Templars just attacked a sovereign nation, not only would they suddenly find the monarch's armies fighting alongside the mage rebellion against them; not only would they have to face the enmity of other nations who would begin asking themselves how long until the Templars violated their own sovereignty; but they would also have to face the real possibility of the people of Thedas seeing them as the agressors and having the mage rebellion legitimized in their minds.
Hence why the Templars did not attack Ferelden in the six months the mages spent there and had no intentions of doing so whatsoever unless taken over by Corypheus.
The only time "act of war" is brought up is when a full frontal assault on the castle is considered in the war room, and that by an organization that is outside of anyone's jurisdiction but their own, the Inquisition.
At the time of this decision, you are an outlaw band. The Chantry has denounced you, and you have next to no political clout to wield anywhere. The only people that recognize that you have any clout whatsoever are your people.
Your point being?
Are you of the erroneous opinion that Templars could crush the mages out of hand as well? If so, why would you hesitate to go to Redcliffe, you do have Templars in your ranks. You know from Dorian that only Alexius can use the magic. So it's only one mage that you have to crush, surely, if you believe that the Templars could crush the mages, crushing one would be no problem at all?
Misinterpretation of facts can lead to big arguments later, such as "the breach isn't closed, and the people of Haven were overreacting when they had the "The Herald saved the world" party in Haven. But the sky, did you see the sky? Yeah, I saw it, no Breach. What I also saw was the animation when you get back to the War Room after you wrap up Mythal's temple, and how you see him reopen, and comment on the fact that he has reopened the Breach. I know we have to pretend that didn't happen, but it did. I believe the line runs along the lines of "I have to close it again".
I've observed how in game events have to be ignored when they're "inconvenient" to a position. However, I choose to not ignore them. I can't. They happened.
There was still a breach. You're literally ignoring what's happening in front of your eyes. This is the open breach:
Notice the swirling clouds. This is different from the growing Breach in Wrath of Heaven:
This is the active breach - before the Herald first stabilizes it.
Watch 2:33. You can see the Clouds swirl around the breach. The Green light is gone, but the breach isn't closed completely. This is conclusively proven based on what we see when we go into the physical Fade.
Did you have a different conversation in Val Royeaux than I did? Did one of the Templars not punch the Chantry sister out right in front of you? From listening to the Lord Seeker I wasn't convinced that it was a safe bet to head there, and what do you know, when you go, you not only spring a trap, but get a few nobles killed doing so. In so far as potential allies go, Redcliffe at least has the advantage of the only forces being in danger are your own. Knowing it's a trap is superior than finding out the hard way.
Walking into a known trap in a enemy stronghold with no real backup and a fuzy plan that entirelyl depends on nothing going wrong is insanely risky, I'd hardly call that superior to anything.
There was still a breach. You're literally ignoring what's happening in front of your eyes. This is the open breach:
Notice the swirling clouds. This is different from the growing Breach in Wrath of Heaven:
This is the active breach - before the Herald first stabilizes it.
Watch 2:33. You can see the Clouds swirl around the breach. The Green light is gone, but the breach isn't closed completely. This is conclusively proven based on what we see when we go into the physical Fade.
Then how do you explain the Inquisitor saying they closed the Breach twice?
https://youtu.be/fPdeL3kPIbw?t=2m19s
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