186 réponses à ce sujet

[Iakus]

 

- Strike from several angles or feint: This kind of tactic usually works when there is a limited number of enemy troops and the enemy has to prioritize. There is every indication that this is not the case.

Except in this case there is a limited number of enemy troops.  Specifically, there is one:  Harbinger.

 

As for the rest, not gonna argue that because, as you have noticed the Reapers are complete idiots when it comes to combat, and imo, Shepard never should have gotten to Mars, let alone escaped the system at the start of the game in ME3.

[MrFob]

Except in this case there is a limited number of enemy troops.  Specifically, there is one:  Harbinger.

 

As for the rest, not gonna argue that because, as you have noticed the Reapers are complete idiots when it comes to combat, and imo, Shepard never should have gotten to Mars, let alone escaped the system at the start of the game in ME3.

 

But this assumes again that Harby at this point is the only one withing a few miles or whatever.

 

I rather assume that the reapers formed 3D perimeter around the beam which is impenetrable on all sides. Just we poked through at the weakest point (where that destroyer was). We had to throw all our troops at that weak point to even get through there and once we did that, we have no choice but to send them all straight at the beam. You can't go around Harbinger because their are more reapers at his back and at his flanks (besides, at this point it's also just a matter of time until they close up that gap again) so you have to try and push through.

 

Harby went there (probably alone because he's Harby the old arrogant bastard) and kills everyone. Then, when the perimeter is intact again and all Alliance guys are dead, he leaves. Only he missed Shep and Anderson who actually survived and wake up inside the perimeter. Again, this is stupidity on the side of the reapers for missing them, not on the side of the Alliance.

 

And I know I am making stuff up here but so are you.

[themikefest]

There were more reapers at Harbingers back and flank? As he was heading to Earth, yes, but not when he was firing his beam of doom at everyone.

 

What's funny is Anderson at the fob says no stepping back, no retreat, but yet heads to Shepard's position instead of heading to the beam while the destroyer and the uglies head to where Shepard is after the first set of missiles are fired.

 

I would also like to know where Anderson was to avoid Harbingers beam of doom. Another funny thing is he doesn't tell everyone to ignore that order to head to the buildings to regroup when the area was clear after Harbinger flew away. That would be a perfect time to get as many as possible up the beam. I guess BioWare only wanted Anderson and Shepard on the Citadel for that touchy-feely scene.

[MrFob]

There were more reapers at Harbingers back and flank? As he was heading to Earth, yes, but not when he was firing his beam of doom at everyone.

 

What's funny is Anderson at the fob says no stepping back, no retreat, but yet heads to Shepard's position instead of heading to the beam while the destroyer and the uglies head to where Shepard is after the first set of missiles are fired.

 

I would also like to know where Anderson was to avoid Harbingers beam of doom. Another funny thing is he doesn't tell everyone to ignore that order to head to the buildings to regroup when the area was clear after Harbinger flew away. That would be a perfect time to get as many as possible up the beam. I guess BioWare only wanted Anderson and Shepard on the Citadel for that touchy-feely scene.

 

I meant reaper troops, not necessarily reapers (although who knows). And when I say rear and flank I don't mean 2 meters next to him. We might not have seen them but they would still prevent other forces to attacking from other directions than from that one direction where we came from. I mean, the whole of London is apparently crawling with reaper troops.

 

Therefore, it also makes perfect sense that Anderson came to Shepard's position before heading for the beam since that would be the only corridor to get to it (for a limited time before more reaper troops come in and close the breach).

I really don't see how this is so difficult to imagine unless you don't want to.

 

I give you that Anderson's silence and whereabouts before we hear from him on the citadel is strange. My headcanon is that he woke up just before Shepard, was barely conscious, stumbled into the beam (he would have not known if others already made it through) and then was out of contact of course because the Citadel arms are still closed. But it's a stretch, I'll admit. The more interesting question is actually why Shepard didn't use his radio before stumbling into the beam. We know that it still works (he uses it later) and we know he is lucid enough to shoot husks and marauders.

 

The thing that I really don't get is: If we are imagining things (e.g. how they could have played this differently) why this focus on imagining how things didn't work, rather than imagining how they could have worked?

[themikefest]

Therefore, it also makes perfect sense that Anderson came to Shepard's position before heading for the beam since that would be the only corridor to get to it (for a limited time before more reaper troops come in and close the breach).

It doesn't make sense. Shepard was keeping the destroyer focused on him/her along with the uglies leaving the way to the beam clear. It was the best time to get to the beam. Would Anderson run into any uglies? Maybe, but that opportunity was taken away the moment he chose to head to Shepard's location. Once he gets there, what does he do? He walks around like he's back on the block wasting time. They end up talking about what might happen once they get on the Citadel. Get in the vehicle and talk about that crap instead of wasting time
 

I really don't see how this is so difficult to imagine unless you don't want to.

I really don't see how difficult it is for you to realize Anderson had the best time to get to the beam unless you don't want to.

 

[MrFob]

It doesn't make sense. Shepard was keeping the destroyer focused on him/her along with the uglies leaving the way to the beam clear. It was the best time to get to the beam. Would Anderson run into any uglies? Maybe, but that opportunity was taken away the moment he chose to head to Shepard's location.

Right, and if Anderson and his convoy come closer, than that would have not changed things at all. And that assumes there was another route that vehicles can even take without being blocked by buildings, rubble or more reaper troops.

 

Once he gets there, what does he do? He walks around like he's back on the block wasting time. They end up talking about what might happen once they get on the Citadel. Get in the vehicle and talk about that crap instead of wasting time

This is a new point and it's very true. There really is no logical excuse for this that I can see.

 

I really don't see how difficult it is for you to realize Anderson had the best time to get to the beam unless you don't want to.

Well, I can see how in a certain set of circumstances it could have been, definitely but we don't know all of them for sure. I am not saying that the story is super well written, I think we can all agree that it's not. What I am trying to do here is to find reasons why the game could make sense regardless. It just is more fun for me than doing the opposite. So yea, I really don't want to and I think with what we see in the game, I can construct a plausible scenario as to why he didn't.

[Iakus]

But this assumes again that Harby at this point is the only one withing a few miles or whatever.

 

I rather assume that the reapers formed 3D perimeter around the beam which is impenetrable on all sides. Just we poked through at the weakest point (where that destroyer was). We had to throw all our troops at that weak point to even get through there and once we did that, we have no choice but to send them all straight at the beam. You can't go around Harbinger because their are more reapers at his back and at his flanks (besides, at this point it's also just a matter of time until they close up that gap again) so you have to try and push through.

 

Harby went there (probably alone because he's Harby the old arrogant bastard) and kills everyone. Then, when the perimeter is intact again and all Alliance guys are dead, he leaves. Only he missed Shep and Anderson who actually survived and wake up inside the perimeter. Again, this is stupidity on the side of the reapers for missing them, not on the side of the Alliance.

 

And I know I am making stuff up here but so are you.

If the perimeter was impenetrable, and there was no place to go but forward, then where did Major Coates and the survivors retreat to?  For that matter, why did they pull back at all?

[MrFob]

If the perimeter was impenetrable, and there was no place to go but forward, then where did Major Coates and the survivors retreat to?  For that matter, why did they pull back at all?

 

We don't know how far behind Shepard they were they might have hit the perimeter as the reaper troops closed the breach and may have tried to retreat towards the less hostile area of the FOB when they realized that they were too late and didn't have a chance to get through anymore..

[themikefest]

We don't know how far behind Shepard they were they might have hit the perimeter as the reaper troops closed the breach and may have tried to retreat towards the less hostile area of the FOB when they realized that they were too late and didn't have a chance to get through anymore..

That would make whoever passed the message to Hackett that someone made it to the beam even harder to believe. Who was it that saw someone go up the beam? Coates did say no one made it to the beam. Hackett assumes Shepard made it up and then a moment later says we need to give them time to open the arms. Within a few seconds it goes from someone to them.

[gothpunkboy89]

Air support.  Cains.  Fly a gunship into the beam from above.  Strike from several angles.  Feint and strike again once Harbinger leaves.  

 

What this plan was amounted to trying to fight off a lion by dousing yourself in barbecue sauce.

 

Reapers have air superiority. Seriously listen to NPC at the forward base they talk about how the Reapers decimated the first wave of hammer troops. Only half if that got though.  AA guns around the beam and the fact most ships were engaged in battle in space to protect Destroyers and Frigates and such from the little orb ships which are the Reaper's air ship.  Seriously you saw what 3 of them could do to the Normandy. Multiply it by thousands and that fight would be over faster then you could blink.

 

They have no gun ships to be used. Remember this is a galaxy attacking a fortified Reaper position AFTER MONTH of fighting them else were in the galaxy. So this applies to your Cain example as well. Military supplies are limited they have been used an exhausted else were already. And any Air ship would need to fly above the building level which would put them in sight of every AA gun in the area. And this isn't modern fire arm were you pull the trigger and there is a chance to miss due to bullet delay over long distances. This is pull the trigger and it is there near instantaneously.  Air Ships would get slaughtered the same way the landing shuttles were slaughtered. Cain's would help but again limited weapon access and limited ammo for it. So it's use while helpful would be extremely limited.

 

How would they strike from several angles? They barely was able to open up a single path let alone multiple points of attack. Which would only spread the troops out to paper thin lines against the Reaper's much larger force. One of those points break leaves the flanks of the others near it wide open. So not only would they be fighting Reaper troops from the front but from the side and behind as well.  Militarily speaking that is called being fucked royally.

 

You don't seem to understand the basics of military combat yet you claim all this was avoidable. After the initial strike Reapers can order their troops to move into new positions once they know were we are attacking from. The point of the attack was to strike quickly before the Reapers can move their troops into position. To fall back and attack again during that time Reapers have now moved more troops or given them time to get into position. So now not only have you suffered casualties but the Reapers and their troops know were you are at and what gear you have available to be used against them and they vastly out number you.

[Iakus]

Reapers have air superiority. Seriously listen to NPC at the forward base they talk about how the Reapers decimated the first wave of hammer troops. Only half if that got though.  AA guns around the beam and the fact most ships were engaged in battle in space to protect Destroyers and Frigates and such from the little orb ships which are the Reaper's air ship.  Seriously you saw what 3 of them could do to the Normandy. Multiply it by thousands and that fight would be over faster then you could blink.

 

They have no gun ships to be used. Remember this is a galaxy attacking a fortified Reaper position AFTER MONTH of fighting them else were in the galaxy. So this applies to your Cain example as well. Military supplies are limited they have been used an exhausted else were already. And any Air ship would need to fly above the building level which would put them in sight of every AA gun in the area. And this isn't modern fire arm were you pull the trigger and there is a chance to miss due to bullet delay over long distances. This is pull the trigger and it is there near instantaneously.  Air Ships would get slaughtered the same way the landing shuttles were slaughtered. Cain's would help but again limited weapon access and limited ammo for it. So it's use while helpful would be extremely limited.

 

There were gunships in the freaking Gallipoli-like charge for the beam!  Makos too!

 

But instead of trying to harass Harbinger, draw it out of position, or even draw fire away from the soldiers crossing that open terrain (like the Tuchanka plan), they plunge headlong with the rest and get blown up!

 

 

 

How would they strike from several angles? They barely was able to open up a single path let alone multiple points of attack. Which would only spread the troops out to paper thin lines against the Reaper's much larger force. One of those points break leaves the flanks of the others near it wide open. So not only would they be fighting Reaper troops from the front but from the side and behind as well.  Militarily speaking that is called being fucked royally.

 

They're only up against one Reaper.  Spreading out would actually work to their advantage.  They're not trying to kill Harbinger, just slip past it and get to the beam.  This is not a stand-and-deliver fight.  It's a last-ditch scramble.

 

 

You don't seem to understand the basics of military combat yet you claim all this was avoidable. After the initial strike Reapers can order their troops to move into new positions once they know were we are attacking from. The point of the attack was to strike quickly before the Reapers can move their troops into position. To fall back and attack again during that time Reapers have now moved more troops or given them time to get into position. So now not only have you suffered casualties but the Reapers and their troops know were you are at and what gear you have available to be used against them and they vastly out number you.

So now you're a military combat expert as well as a literary expert?  Harbinger already knew where they were attacking from.  The thing came right down in front of the beam and essentially aid "come at me, bro!"

 

Strike quickly before the Reapers can move troops into position?  Wait, what happened to them having to protect their flanks or they'll be fighting Reapers from every side?  If the Reapers aren't in position, what are they surrounded by?

 

Falling back and trying again might cost lives, but ya know, charging headlong at a Reaper dreadnought cost a lot more.

[Monica21]

So now you're a military combat expert as well as a literary expert?

Also a weapons expert:

And this isn't modern fire arm were you pull the trigger and there is a chance to miss due to bullet delay over long distances.

A modern day Leonardo DaVinci!

[Iakus]

Also a weapons expert:


A modern day Leonardo DaVinci!

Hah!  I missed that over the other nonsense!

[themikefest]

So now you're a military combat expert as well as a literary expert?

He/she reminds me of David7204 aka Bob from Accounting aka Babypuncher. A jack of all trades, a master of none

[MrFob]

That would make whoever passed the message to Hackett that someone made it to the beam even harder to believe. Who was it that saw someone go up the beam? Coates did say no one made it to the beam. Hackett assumes Shepard made it up and then a moment later says we need to give them time to open the arms. Within a few seconds it goes from someone to them.

 

As I said, Shepard's radio is still working. I could imagine it includes some kind of locator/transponder (that also makes sense because Shep often gets picked up in locations where no one should expect him (e.g. Arrival DLC)). Thus, the guys would be able to at least tell that the signal is there at one moment, gone the next. Additionally, we never see what the beam to the citadel looks like when it transports somebody up there. Maybe it looks like the ring transporter's matter streams in Stargate and you can clearly see it when something is going through. That way, people would know that

a) more than one person made it and

b ) it's likely that Shepard is one of them since his transponder signal was lost exactly at the time the second person went through.

 

Problem solved, next question?

[themikefest]

Maybe it looks like the ring transporter's matter streams in Stargate

Why did you mention this? I know nothing about Stargate. So your comment doesn't mean anything to me.

 

next question?

Why didn't Hackett send a shuttle to Shepard's location after she passed out? Time is not on his side. He has no idea what happened to her. Why wouldn't he send a shuttle to investigate. If Shepard died, how long would he of waited before doing anything? Of course I would be curious why Shepard made no effort to try to make contact with Hackett when she regains consciousness

[gothpunkboy89]

There were gunships in the freaking Gallipoli-like charge for the beam!  Makos too!

 

But instead of trying to harass Harbinger, draw it out of position, or even draw fire away from the soldiers crossing that open terrain (like the Tuchanka plan), they plunge headlong with the rest and get blown up!

 

They're only up against one Reaper.  Spreading out would actually work to their advantage.  They're not trying to kill Harbinger, just slip past it and get to the beam.  This is not a stand-and-deliver fight.  It's a last-ditch scramble.

 

So now you're a military combat expert as well as a literary expert?  Harbinger already knew where they were attacking from.  The thing came right down in front of the beam and essentially aid "come at me, bro!"

 

Strike quickly before the Reapers can move troops into position?  Wait, what happened to them having to protect their flanks or they'll be fighting Reapers from every side?  If the Reapers aren't in position, what are they surrounded by?

 

Falling back and trying again might cost lives, but ya know, charging headlong at a Reaper dreadnought cost a lot more.

 

Yes there were gun ships and makos and they were blown up all the same trying to get to the beam. Soldiers of any kind are not kittens that can be distracted from things because they move really fast by them. Particularly the disposable way Reaper's use troops. The gun ships would only retain attention as long as they were around the troops. Which means they would also be targets to be shot at and killed. Thessia already showed the effect of trying to use a Gun ship to protect ground troops for extended periods. It works short term then the Reapers target it and blow it out of the sky.  Tunchunka was close to jets then gun ships which are more like modern day helicopters. And they even admit that they had limited attacks only 2 maybe 3 passes before they were rendered useless. Part of the tension of the run up to it. Because they had to get there now before the Turian ships use up all their missiles and are rendered useless.

 

Do I need to point out the use of explosives on already crumbling buildings before troops have to walk though that area isn't the greatest of ideas?

 

 

Harbinger isn't an idiot it knows the beam is the point they are trying to make. It won't leave the beam because some people start to shoot spit balls at it. The only reason Harbinger even shows up is specifically because they were able to break though the Reaper line and almost made it to the beam. It's arrival was at the right time to protect the beam by blowing the **** out of everyone near it.  You wouldn't be able to lure it away though a few rounds of a gun or a Makko cannon. Those are like butterfly kisses to them.

 

Reapers are guarding the entire area around the beam. Seriously you can't seem to follow basic logic and it is painful talking to someone who lacks even basic understanding of military strategies. The Reapers are spread out so the Allies pick a single attack route and hit it hard and fast. Break though the Reaper line and get into the beam before they can move troops to reinforce the area they are being attacked in. Once they reached the beam that would create a choke point for the Allies to hold off against any Reaper forces trying to follow them into the beam.

 

Seriously that was the entire point the Greeks picked the area to fight during the Battle of Thermopylae. The geographical location created a natural choke point. So even though the Persian Army massively out numbered them the narrow fighting area limited the number of troops they could use against the Greeks. Evening the fight a bit. 7,000 men held off 150,000 for 7 days because of that natural choke point.

[MrFob]

Why did you mention this? I know nothing about Stargate. So your comment doesn't mean anything to me.

Ah dam, when I was typing it, I was actually trying t find and link a youtube video where we can see it but i couldn't find a good one. Anyway, in Stargate, two transporter plattforms when active are connected by a white energy beam that looks kind of similar to the one in ME3. When something is transported through, you can see a "blib" moving along that beam so it's easy to tell when someone or something is transported even from far away. They could even see it from their spaceships. There is no reason why this shouldn't also happen when Shep and Anderson go through this beam.
 

Why didn't Hackett send a shuttle to Shepard's location after she passed out? Time is not on his side. He has no idea what happened to her. Why wouldn't he send a shuttle to investigate. If Shepard died, how long would he of waited before doing anything? Of course I would be curious why Shepard made no effort to try to make contact with Hackett when she regains consciousness

Who says he didn't? We don't know what Hackett did or did not do while Shep talked to the star kid. Maybe he sent a shuttle and it was shot down (during this conversation, the reapers do continue happily blowing up Alliance ships for some reason after all).

[themikefest]

Those so-called bufferfly kisses, that you call them, did distract the destroyer in that cutscene when it was fired upon from small arms fire. So yes, those butterfly kisses would distract Harbinger

 

If Joker was able to fire on Harbinger from behind, Harbinger would know it. He would turn around to see who/what is firing at him. He has no idea its only the one ship firing. As large as he is, it would take a couple of moments for him to turn around and then turn back around again to fire on the suicide runners heading to the beam. It would give Shepard time to get to the beam uninjured. Maybe instead of just having Joker firing at Harbinger, have a few fighters as well. Look how easy the destroyer on Tuchanka was distracted by the turian fighters. Unfortunately there is no scene showing Joker firing at Harbinger

[themikefest]

Who says he didn't? We don't know what Hackett did or did not do while Shep talked to the star kid. Maybe he sent a shuttle and it was shot down (during this conversation, the reapers do continue happily blowing up Alliance ships for some reason after all).

I don't believe he did.

[MrFob]

I don't believe he did.

Why not?

[themikefest]

Why not?

Why do you believe he might have?

 

I'm sure if a shuttle was sent towards Shepard's location, there would've been a cutscene showing it being destroyed or at least hearing Hackett mention to hold back since the shuttle was destroyed. And trying to come up with another way to get to Shepard's location

[gothpunkboy89]

Those so-called bufferfly kisses, that you call them, did distract the destroyer in that cutscene when it was fired upon from small arms fire. So yes, those butterfly kisses would distract Harbinger

 

If Joker was able to fire on Harbinger from behind, Harbinger would know it. He would turn around to see who/what is firing at him. He has no idea its only the one ship firing. Has large as he is, it would take a couple of moments for him to turn around and then turn back around again to fire on the suicide runners heading to the beam. It would give Shepard time to get to the beam uninjured. Maybe instead of just having Joker firing at Harbinger, have a few fighters as well. Look how easy the destroyer on Tuchanka was distracted by the turian fighters. Unfortunately that never happens.

 

 

That is an entirely different fight with entirely different stakes with an entirely different Reaper. Destoryers were small class Reapers.

 

• Harbinger: The first Reaper ever created, Harbinger appears to be of a unique subtype; Alliance intelligence identifies it as being the largest Reaper in the armada, and its design differs notably from the Capital Ship subtype, having only four main legs and multiple glowing "eyes". Exactly how much more powerful it is than a normal Reaper capital ship is unknown.
• Capital Ship: Also known as Sovereign-class, the two-kilometer-long Capital Ships are the most well-known Reaper subtype. Their main weapon is a spinal mounted "magnetohydrodynamic" cannon with a yield of 132 to 450 kilotons of TNT, which dwarfs the main gun of an Everest-class Alliance dreadnought.
• Destroyer: Destroyers are only 160 meters in height, but possess a formidable capacity for destruction despite their reduced stature, with their main gun easily capable of destroying cruisers in seconds. Unlike Capital Ships, they have four main legs, along with five jointed appendages encircling their "head". The frontal plates of a Destroyer can fold to the sides, exposing a powerful beam weapon.

You can not compare these two fights because it is with wildly different stakes and ships involved.

[themikefest]

Here the excuses come again. Just excuses. Reapers are easily distracted.

[Iakus]

Yes there were gun ships and makos and they were blown up all the same trying to get to the beam. Soldiers of any kind are not kittens that can be distracted from things because they move really fast by them. Particularly the disposable way Reaper's use troops. The gun ships would only retain attention as long as they were around the troops. Which means they would also be targets to be shot at and killed. Thessia already showed the effect of trying to use a Gun ship to protect ground troops for extended periods. It works short term then the Reapers target it and blow it out of the sky.  Tunchunka was close to jets then gun ships which are more like modern day helicopters. And they even admit that they had limited attacks only 2 maybe 3 passes before they were rendered useless. Part of the tension of the run up to it. Because they had to get there now before the Turian ships use up all their missiles and are rendered useless.

 

 

You know why those gunships and makos got blown up?

 

Because they were charging headlong at Harbinger not even trying to evade.  Seriously, what was the point of them even being there?

 

Now what was the strategy on Tuchanka?  Oh, yeah, gunships and vehicles distracting the Reaper (who knows they had to get t the Shroud) So Shepard and Mordin could slip past itAnd the only reason it failed was the tomkahs got held up.  But even two or three passes would have been a lot more coer than the infantry got on Earth.

 

 

 

 
Harbinger isn't an idiot it knows the beam is the point they are trying to make. It won't leave the beam because some people start to shoot spit balls at it. The only reason Harbinger even shows up is specifically because they were able to break though the Reaper line and almost made it to the beam. It's arrival was at the right time to protect the beam by blowing the **** out of everyone near it.  You wouldn't be able to lure it away though a few rounds of a gun or a Makko cannon. Those are like butterfly kisses to them.

We don't need Harbinger to leave the beam.  We need a few soldier to reach the beam alive.  What's Harbinger going to do then?  Chase them?  Inflicting any damage to Harbinger at all would simply be a bonus

 

 

 

Reapers are guarding the entire area around the beam. Seriously you can't seem to follow basic logic and it is painful talking to someone who lacks even basic understanding of military strategies. The Reapers are spread out so the Allies pick a single attack route and hit it hard and fast. Break though the Reaper line and get into the beam before they can move troops to reinforce the area they are being attacked in. Once they reached the beam that would create a choke point for the Allies to hold off against any Reaper forces trying to follow them into the beam.
 

Believe me, I know exactly how you feel 

Wait, If the beam is surrounded by Reaper forces to the point where only one spot in the reaper line can be punched through, where is this hypothetical "choke point" where the allies can hold off Reaper forces?  Won't they find themselves cut off and surrounded?     

 

Aren't the allies fighting their way through a Reaper choke point here, by your logic?  Which would be, frankly suicide.

 

 

 

Seriously that was the entire point the Greeks picked the area to fight during the Battle of Thermopylae. The geographical location created a natural choke point. So even though the Persian Army massively out numbered them the narrow fighting area limited the number of troops they could use against the Greeks. Evening the fight a bit. 7,000 men held off 150,000 for 7 days because of that natural choke point.

 

Didn't the Greeks lose Thermopylae because  the Persians found an alternate path that allowed them to surround the Greeks?