186 réponses à ce sujet

[gothpunkboy89]

Huh? In fact, the dialogue for squad members on the Normandy in ME3 changes, depending whether they were ground side for a mission or not. Vega will often tell you that he wished he was there when you leave him on the ship. If he was with you, he'll have the appropriate comment for that instead.

 

I thought that was pretty neat.

 

Also, this.

 

 

Different squads. They don't get picked to go with Shepard so they go with other members playing support roles for Shep's squad. Vega was pissed enough he had to leave the fight on Earth. You really think he would willingly spend the entire war sitting in the Normandy quietly?

 

As for your earlier statement about them reducing fire rate from their ships. They wouldn't need to reduce it very much. Explosions release all their energy  at the same time in an area effect. The cannon rounds release all their energy in a very specific spot when it impacts. Just because it has the impact energy of a tactical nuke doesn't mean it will explode like one.

[gothpunkboy89]

Where did you get your vast understanding of military strategy? Did you serve? Do you teach at the War College? Are you a student of military strategy? Maybe wrote some books or papers about specific battles? I mean, really, let us know. Because a few episodes of the History Channel doesn't cut it.

 

 

Your knowledge comes from?

[Monica21]

Your knowledge comes from?

I'm not the one arguing military strategy, you are. So I'm asking you to back up your claims. It's really a more than reasonable request. If you do have experience that is something other than playing Call of Duty, please share.

[MrFob]

Different squads. They don't get picked to go with Shepard so they go with other members playing support roles for Shep's squad. Vega was pissed enough he had to leave the fight on Earth. You really think he would willingly spend the entire war sitting in the Normandy quietly?

Where are you getting this from? First time I ever heard about this. Also, what do they do, e.g. on Grunt's mission or on Tuchanka?
 

As for your earlier statement about them reducing fire rate from their ships. They wouldn't need to reduce it very much. Explosions release all their energy  at the same time in an area effect. The cannon rounds release all their energy in a very specific spot when it impacts. Just because it has the impact energy of a tactical nuke doesn't mean it will explode like one.

First of all, it's not the rate of tire but the velocity of the projectiles that needs to be reduced.

Second, ahhh, hello, force of a nuclear bomb! Even if it's purely kinetic energy and not all is converted straight up into a shock wave and thermal (and even if we assume that it gets slowed down and reduced in mass a little by the atmosphere), it would still be unpleasant. The only real reference that we have is that a dreadnought slug impacts with the force of 38 kilotons TNT. Let's say these are mainly cruiser and frigate size ships firing. Let's also be generous and say that they have maybe 1/10th of the power of a dreadnought. that would still be dropping a bomb of 38 tons of tnt about 50 meters in front of you. Good luck with that.

Why do you think that ships are not allowed to assault other ships that have a garden world at their back according to Citadel conventions?

[gothpunkboy89]

I'm not the one arguing military strategy, you are. So I'm asking you to back up your claims. It's really a more than reasonable request. If you do have experience that is something other than playing Call of Duty, please share.

 

But you are claiming my statements of military strategy are under question. Which means you think my statements are wrong. To claim they are wrong you would need your own source of information to make the statement they are incorrect.

 

I used CoD as a basic example of how choke points operate. Because using said door can let 1 person take down an entire team that would normally slaughter him by limiting the number of people he faces to 1 or 2 at a time.

 

As for my knowledge comes from grandpa (both sides) serving in the military. My Uncle, Brother, few friends as well as mild interest in battle strategies and a number of RTS games. I actually brought this talk up to my brother who was in the Marines for 4 years who also played the game. He supports most of what I said. His only variation is to attack 2 AA guns at once then one or the other group rush the beam. But that option still falls when it comes to the fact Harbinger touched down at the beam as a last ditch effort to protect it. No matter which side made the run they would be force to charge right though his beam.

 

He points out time is the factor that requires this as the battle in space is the deciding factor. Once the space battle is over the Crucible will be destroyed and the Reapers can then turn their full force on the ground units. Once the crucible is gone nothing they do matters anymore because it is game over.

 

They have numerical superiority, they have superiority fire power, they have near limitless supplies as well as air and space superiority. Given the timer counting down it is the only course of action he sees as well. He doesn't like the set up but understands why it was done that way.

[Monica21]

But you are claiming my statements of military strategy are under question. Which means you think my statements are wrong. To claim they are wrong you would need your own source of information to make the statement they are incorrect.

To be fair, I think most of what you say is either guesswork or yes, flat out wrong. And you can't use guesswork to prove a point. I have reasons to mistrust most of what you say. You have a long history of being unable to respond to the point in question and redirecting to an entirely different point, thus taking every argument down a path it doesn't need to go.
 

I used CoD as a basic example of how choke points operate. Because using said door can let 1 person take down an entire team that would normally slaughter him by limiting the number of people he faces to 1 or 2 at a time.

Have you thought about just describing a choke point?
 

As for my knowledge comes from ....

Not based on personal experience or any kind of study then. Okay. By the way, "my brother agrees with me" gives you about as much credibility as using your mom as an alibi. Which is not much.

[gothpunkboy89]

Where are you getting this from? First time I ever heard about this.
 

First of all, it's not the rate of tire but the velocity of the projectiles that needs to be reduced.

Second, ahhh, hello, force of a nuclear bomb! Even if it's purely kinetic energy and not all is converted straight up into a shock wave and thermal (and even if we assume that it gets slowed down by the atmosphere), it would still be unpleasant. The only real reference that we have is that a dreadnought slug impacts with the force of 38 kilotons TNT. Let's say these are mainly cruiser and frigate size ships firing. Let's also be generous and say that they have maybe 1/10th of the power of a dreadnought. that would still be dropping a bomb of 38 tons of t&t about 50 meters in front of you. Good luck with that.

Why do you think that ships are not allowed to assault other ships that have a garden world at their back according to Citadel conventions?

 

I never pick Vega for my squad mate save for the 2 missions that require him to be there. Do you think he would willingly sit out the entire war in the cargo hold?

 

Never said it would be pleasant. Explosions like TNT or nukes release their energy in an omnidirectional explosion. Bullets work by transferring energy in a unidirectional method on impact.  a 14.5x114mm round impacts at  ~ 32,000 joules.  The impact of a round traveling at muzzle velocity of an ME gun would be much higher obviously. But the impact would and I can't put any better term then atomize the round on impact

 

 

The round would be much smaller then a car and traveling faster then 600 MPH.

 

All that kinetic energy is transferred right to the Reaper as it takes the impact of it.

 

They don't fire on towards garden worlds because said round can cause damage if they hit population centers. A stray round new a reactor and it could cause a melt down. A stray round impacts near the base of a building and it can take the whole building down.  I make no claim that these shot couldn't do serious damage but they would need to impact the ground to do it. Hitting a Reaper would transfer all the energy directly to the Reaper not the ground. At worse Shepard would get hit with a presure wave but sealed in a hard suit he might get blown around a bit. But he would survive protected from the pressure wave by the suit.

 

In the interest of protecting the planet I no doubt they scaled back the velocity but they wouldn't need to completely neuter the guns to kill the Reaper. And either way the velocity of those rounds would still be much higher and the impact stronger then anything a gun ship or Makko could unleash on Harbinger.

[gothpunkboy89]

To be fair, I think most of what you say is either guesswork or yes, flat out wrong. And you can't use guesswork to prove a point. I have reasons to mistrust most of what you say. You have a long history of being unable to respond to the point in question and redirecting to an entirely different point, thus taking every argument down a path it doesn't need to go.
 

Have you thought about just describing a choke point?
 

Not based on personal experience or any kind of study then. Okay. By the way, "my brother agrees with me" gives you about as much credibility as using your mom as an alibi. Which is not much.

 

 

As do you. I've seen you do it many a time. As for describing a choke point I did twice already. Pointing out if squads made it into the beam they could fortify their position and create a choke point at the beam entrance. needing less soldiers to hold that point against any Reaper troops following them.  This was ignored twice and tried to claim the buildings were choke points even though during the mission you actively move in between building  to get to were you need to go. Showing these really aren't choke points because there are multiple ways around.  I even quoted a historical battle that was even made into a movie to highly what choke points can do for armies.  It was even made into a successful if not completely historically inaccurate film that shows just that.  300 Spartans picking an area that forces the millions solderers army of the Persian army to be forced to take on the 300 Spartans in a confined area that remove their numerical advantage in the battle. You know besides the fact they could lose more people without having their numbers significantly effected.

 

And your personal experience or study of any kind is?

[Monica21]

And your personal experience or study of any kind is?

I've never argued what I can't back up through personal experience or study. And my graduate degree in History lets me counter your claim that the "not completely historically accurate" statement about the Battle of Thermopolyea is a gross understatement. My graduate degree and work in the library sciences and archives and records management (which I referred to previously and which you continued to argue with me about) counter your claim about how the National Archives works and, by extension, how a government would use information on the Citadel.

But nevermind that. You have your opinions, very few of which are based in fact, in study, or in experience.

[MrFob]

I never pick Vega for my squad mate save for the 2 missions that require him to be there. Do you think he would willingly sit out the entire war in the cargo hold?

It's not about Vega. My question was: Where in the game is this ever mentioned?
Also, I think he's a soldier and as such he should follow orders. If those orders are to stay on the ship then he'd better.
 

snip

So the round hits the reaper and the kinetic energy is dispersed/transformed. Yes, the round itself will be atomized and whatever doesn't transfer into thermal energy and a pressure wave (air burst) will transfer into the reaper. And where is the reaper standing? On the ground! It would need one hell of a shock absorption system to not pass any of this on.

I could even get behind this if we'd see the round hit a kinetic barrier but that doesn't happen either, the rounds hit that thing directly.

But, I'll hand it to you, I tried to make some calculations with the help of this site and it turns out this whole scene doesn't make any sense at all anyway because if we assume that the rounds they fire are 1 meter or smaller in diameter and that they are made of an extremely dense material like e.g. tungsten, then the round should still burn up in the atmosphere before reaching the ground.

If we assume that it's some super dense material, created with some crazy ME technology (so it can actually hit the surface as shown in the cutscene, I go with 30000 kg/m^3 which is of course ridiculous but there we go) and it does reach the reaper/ground (makes no difference) when fired at, say just 150 km/s (dreadnoughts can do way more but we said we'd go with less), it should generate a crater with a diameter of about 165 meters and an air burst that can topple buildings. The thermal radiation alone would ignite clothes more than 100 meters away.

So yea, not only nonsensical but also not pleasant at all.

[gothpunkboy89]

I've never argued what I can't back up through personal experience or study. And my graduate degree in History lets me counter your claim that the "not completely historically accurate" statement about the Battle of Thermopolyea is a gross understatement. My graduate degree and work in the library sciences and archives and records management (which I referred to previously and which you continued to argue with me about) counter your claim about how the National Archives works and, by extension, how a government would use information on the Citadel.

But nevermind that. You have your opinions, very few of which are based in fact, in study, or in experience.

 

 

You have no experience and yet you demand proof of mine? That is funny.

 

I stated the movie 300 was not historically accurate. The rest of it 7,000 Greeks of various cities holding off an army of Persians numbering in up to 150,000 men thanks to the fact the path narrows preventing the Persians from unleashing the full strength of their army against them. Thus allowing them to delay their advance a week is true.

 

So you don't take my brother being in the Marines and agreeing with me at face value. But I'm suppose to believe you have two graduate degrees both in history and a graduate degree in library sciences. You spent 6 years in college 4 studying history and 2 in library science. Since a normal masters would take 4 years and there would be classes that overlap. And I'm suppose to take that at face value? That is funny.

 

You pointed out they need large caves because they are naturally sturdy and need space for all the paper media. Everything is digitized in ME save a few relics like the M7 rifle from first contact war. You point out that DC is a vulnerable area to be targeted in case of war. I point out that the Citadel is the exact opposite. It is the single most fortified location in the entire galaxy. I also point out that there are multiple instance in game were the Council dictates who gets to colonize what planet. That short of any Black Ops planets like the moon of Palivan that you find Garuss on the Council has records and a say in who colonizes were as part of an effort to allow all races a chance to expand. Not just the more advanced ones like the Truian or Asari or later Humans.

[gothpunkboy89]

It's not about Vega. My question was: Where in the game is this ever mentioned?
Also, I think he's a soldier and as such he should follow orders. If those orders are to stay on the ship then he'd better.
 

So the round hits the reaper and the kinetic energy is dispersed/transformed. Yes, the round itself will be atomized and whatever doesn't transfer into thermal energy and a pressure wave (air burst) will transfer into the reaper. And where is the reaper standing? On the ground! It would need one hell of a shock absorption system to not pass any of this on.

But, I'll hand it to you, I tried to make some calculations with the help of this site and it turns out this whole scene doesn't make any sense at all anyway because if we assume that the rounds they fire are 1 meter or smaller in diameter and that they are made of an extremely dense material like e.g. tungsten, then the round should still burn up in the atmosphere before reaching the ground.

If we assume that it's some super dense material, created with ME technology (so it can actually hit the surface as shown in the cutscene, I go with 30000 kg/m^3 which is of course ridiculous but there we go) and it does reach the reaper/ground (makes no difference) when fired at, say 0.5% light speed (dreadnoughts can do more but we said we'd go with less), it should generate a crater with a diameter of about 165 meters and an air burst that can topple buildings.

So yea, not sensical but also not pleasant at all.

 

Isn't it completely odd why in ME2 everyone would jump on the shuttle and leave the Normandy completely exposed? Particularly since the team was so large there would be no reason to do that? That is how the game operates on a story telling basis. Game play wise you are limited to 2 people for game play reasons. And the same reason why Collectors and Reaper troops will drop standard issue thermal clips even though they have access to organic weaponry in the case of Collector and Cannibals.

 

There are multiple squads that operates Shepard takes a 3 man team and others split up into equal teams as well. This is hinted at during Virmire attack. Do you really think that what 6 Salarians and 1 human could take on and draw out Saren's entire base? The when the bomb is being unloaded the only soldiers you see besides the one you picked to stay behind with the bomb are all generic alliance soldiers.  During assault on the collector base you only control a 3 man team at a time. Yet the rest are off doing their own thing fighting against them. And again during the Archive attack when they split into 3 teams. The standard 3 man team with Shep and Mako and Hammer Head comprising the rest of the group.  Even by the stretching limits of it being a game the idea that a 3 person team alone could create a body count so high it should be considered a war crime is stretching it. Particularly when it is shown that entire battalion get wiped out when Shep and 2 other people manage to slaughter them.

 

They mention in ME2 that is is a 20 kilo ferrous slug 1.3% the speed of light. So roughly 3,897,301 m/s

 

 

I tried to use that calculator but never seemed to work for me. I don't think it can accept the concept of something moving  even 1.3% the speed of light.  As for what absorbs the blow from those shots. The Reaper's kinetic barrier absorbs the blows. Remember when the Alliance was standing still shooting at Sovereign when he was on the Citadel. Or when that one ship was taking shots at the Reaper in London.

 

Either way those shoots even if scaled back to prevent killing Shepard or to prevent causing damage to the planet would still retain more fire power damage then any single round from a gun or makko's cannon.

 

Can we agree on that?

[Monica21]

You have no experience and yet you demand proof of mine? That is funny.

I have both experience and study, both of which I explained to you.

So you don't take my brother being in the Marines and agreeing with me at face value. But I'm suppose to believe you have two graduate degrees both in history and a graduate degree in library sciences. You spent 6 years in college 4 studying history and 2 in library science. Since a normal masters would take 4 years and there would be classes that overlap. And I'm suppose to take that at face value? That is funny.

I don't care if you believe me, but that's not how a Master's degree works, which is yet another area of ignorance for you. But whatever.

[Dantriges]

Isn't it completely odd why in ME2 everyone would jump on the shuttle and leave the Normandy completely exposed? Particularly since the team was so large there would be no reason to do that? That is how the game operates on a story telling basis. Game play wise you are limited to 2 people for game play reasons.

 

Oh that´s so you can pick the ones you take with you on the mission. Miranda says so at the beginning. Which is more or less completely bonkers but the reason Miranda gives you. If the usual procedure was that everyone drops into the mission and operates in different squads they wouldn´t have to do that stunt at all. Your squaddies are on the planet, the Normandy is in orbit and wohoo sneak attack. 

 

There is no hint at all in any of the usual missions that there are more squadmates on the mission than the ones you see. There are no communications, no briefings what the other squads do, no dialogue with members of your own squad wondering how the others are doing. The only two missions where you interact with other crewmates who aren´t in your squad are the suicide mission and the Citadel DLC and there it´s clear that these missions involve everyone. You see them on a regular basis. At the beginning of the Archive mission, people ask Shep who (s)he wants to take with them and the answer is "why not everyone?"

 

So yeah the three people squad killing everyone is what actually happens. It might be totally bonkers and unbelievable but that´s what happens.

[MrFob]

@gothpunkboy89: The squad thing, nah, I don't have much of a problem imagining the others staying on the ship on stand-by. It's not a bad idea to have reserve troops for emergencies. We never see or hear of the others doing anything and there are some examples where it's even ruled out by the circumstances. The collector base is clearly a special case and they even mention this during the briefing. But, if I remember correctly, this point is pretty irrelevant to the conversation anyway, so if you want to imagine them out in the field, that's perfectly alright with me. After my little discussion with mikefest on the last page, I'd be a pretty bad hypocrite to argue too much against it. I was more interested to know if there was anything specific in the game that mentions this (because that would be news to me and I hate to miss stuff).

 

As for the quarian's shots: Well, that's the problem. That slug, that guy in the video is talking about should never reach the surface unless enhanced with some crazy ME tech. So it should either burn up in the atmo or cause some devastating damage on impact.

The kinetic barriers are a good point but as I said above we don't see any here (in all other instances they have some sort of visual effect) and even if we assume that the reapers have some special barriers that we don't see, at least the last couple of shots when the reaper goes down should really make a bang.

 

But anyway, ignoring all this physics nonsense, I'd agree, those shots should probably be more powerful than those of a MAKO cannon in the story.

[gothpunkboy89]

@gothpunkboy89: The squad thing, nah, I don't have much of a problem imagining the others staying on the ship on stand-by. It's not a bad idea to have reserve troops for emergencies. We never see or hear of the others doing anything and there are some examples where it's even ruled out by the circumstances. The collector base is clearly a special case and they even mention this during the briefing. But, if I remember correctly, this point is pretty irrelevant to the conversation anyway, so if you want to imagine them out in the field, that's perfectly alright with me. After my little discussion with mikefest on the last page, I'd be a pretty bad hypocrite to argue too much against it. I was more interested to know if there was anything specific in the game that mentions this (because that would be news to me and I hate to miss stuff).

 

As for the quarian's shots: Well, that's the problem. That slug, that guy in the video is talking about should never reach the surface unless enhanced with some crazy ME tech. So it should either burn up in the atmo or cause some devastating damage on impact.

The kinetic barriers are a good point but as I said above we don't see any here (in all other instances they have some sort of visual effect) and even if we assume that the reapers have some special barriers that we don't see, at least the last couple of shots when the reaper goes down should really make a bang.

 

But anyway, ignoring all this physics nonsense, I'd agree, those shots should probably be more powerful than those of a MAKO cannon in the story.

 

Even with the basic game concept that Shepard is an unstoppable juggernaut capable of killing a thresher maw with is pinky. Which is exactly how the game often depicts him. Even that premise gets stretched well beyond reason in many cases. To the point Shepard and his 3 man squad should not only be able to take on Harbinger alone but be able to beat him without even needing a gun.  His combined body count just of ME1 alone means a 3 man squad with him should have been able to kill every collector in the base and head butt the human reaper to death in one blow. That is the ridiculously extreme level they take Shepard to time and time again.  Suspension of belief can only be pushed so far. The idea that it isn't just a 3 man team but a multi team action with every member you recruit to your team participating reduces that level of ridiculously. Much like in ME2 during the final attack you constantly split your team up to take on objectives. Which makes the whole assaulting their base seem less stupid and over the top compared to just 3 people slaughtering their way though the whole base.

 

There really isn't anything directly in game that states it. It was from some bio ware employee who said it a while ago. I can't find the page I found it on and frankly to lazy to look it up and probably doesn't matter anyways. Basically stating that you only get 2 squad mates do to hardware limitations and game play reasons. And trying to control 6-12 squad mates at once with this being a third person shooter and not a RTS game would be to taxing for the system and aggravating for the players.  Now there are a few missions that would be limited to a 3 person squad mostly any vehicle mission. Noveria, most exploration missions ME1 and all hammer head missions ME2.

 

But the idea the concept that 3 people could slaughter fest their way though stuff that is shown to be killing  or capable of killing other soldiers by the dozens with no effort is just a step to far fro me. All threat all tension is removed from the story line. How were the Geth, Krogan, Collectors, Reaper troops, Thresher Maws or literally anything you face in game ever considered a threat when 3 people can slaughter them with no real effort. 

 

Priority Thessia is the single best example though there are plenty more. You watch as the Asari Military get torn apart by the Reaper invasion. Just about every Asari Commando that attempts to help you gets killed in some way shape or form. Seriously in the few seconds you touch down they attempt to show how badly the Asari are taking a beating by Reaper forces. Yet a 3 man team is able to fight the way though it without suffering a single casualty while what a dozen or so Asari die directly attempting to help you.  After the mission Shepard (at least on Paragon play though) is obviously upset and angry at the lost of the data and what happened to Thessia. And it is always such a jarring disconnect from what happens. 3 people managed to do what thousands of equally trained Asari Commandos were incapable of doing. Holding their own and advancing though Reaper troops and Reaper held territory.

 

Sorry if I seem to be rambling a bit here. Just that idea of only 3 people do all this pushes my suspension of belief for this game just a step to far. His entire squad participating then reduces the level of over the top suspension needed to accept everything Shep does during the trilogy.

 

I think the concept of the shots reaching the planet surface from orbit is legitimate. Though they were most likely slowed down heavily when they hit air resistance during the multiple mile drop to the ground. The rounds would be shaped and made out of sturdy materials to be shot. It is unlikely it would be taken apart by the heat of reentry. None of the video ever show the rounds penetrating the Reaper. They all impact but nothing every hits though him. I swear I remember reading in one of the Codex's that the Reapers have the same ability as the Relays to lock their form down at the quantum level to protect from damage. But doing so paralyzes them because they can't move.

 

My theory is the shots did damage that caused the Reaper to initialize the lock down to keep him functioning till the harvest is over and it can be repaired. Same applies towards the one on Tachunka.

 

Those shots from the Quarian fleet are what I'm getting at. Claiming gun ships or Makkos could some how to damage to Harbigner who is massively bigger then that Reaper destroyer is. Is just silly to me.  They would be shrugged off like we shrug off mosquito bites.

[themikefest]

Who was saying have Mako's and gunships fire at Harbinger? I was saying have the Normandy fire at Harbinger. No idea what damage it would do, if any, but it would get Harbingers attention. Swatting mosquitoe's is still distracting.

[gothpunkboy89]

Those so-called bufferfly kisses, that you call them, did distract the destroyer in that cutscene when it was fired upon from small arms fire. So yes, those butterfly kisses would distract Harbinger

 

If Joker was able to fire on Harbinger from behind, Harbinger would know it. He would turn around to see who/what is firing at him. He has no idea its only the one ship firing. As large as he is, it would take a couple of moments for him to turn around and then turn back around again to fire on the suicide runners heading to the beam. It would give Shepard time to get to the beam uninjured. Maybe instead of just having Joker firing at Harbinger, have a few fighters as well. Look how easy the destroyer on Tuchanka was distracted by the turian fighters. Unfortunately there is no scene showing Joker firing at Harbinger

 

 

This is you directly stating in the first reply that small arms fire would some how distract the largest most powerful Reaper.

 

Were Joker to fire any missile or round that would cause enough damage for Harbinger to even take one of his eye off the beam assault would need to be powerful enough to deal serious damage to surrounding area as well. Hurting the troops rushing the beam.  And that doesn't even take into account if Harbinger could break way from the fight at any moment he could call down more Reapers as needed. Turning this from a 1 vs 1 standing target to a 2 vs 1 when Normandy already has a disadvantage in the gravity well of the planet. Joker actively stares down Harbinger hoping to distract him for a short time. Enough to maybe get Shepard though the beam.

[themikefest]

This is you directly stating in the first reply that small arms fire would some how distract the largest most powerful Reaper.

Yeah. So what? If it can distract the destroyer, it can distract a capital ship. Why does firing at Harbinger have to damage it? Distracting an enemy doesn't mean damaging the enemy. If it does, great.
 

Were Joker to fire any missile or round that would cause enough damage for Harbinger to even take one of his eye off the beam assault would need to be powerful enough to deal serious damage to surrounding area as well. Hurting the troops rushing the beam.  And that doesn't even take into account if Harbinger could break way from the fight at any moment he could call down more Reapers as needed. Turning this from a 1 vs 1 standing target to a 2 vs 1 when Normandy already has a disadvantage in the gravity well of the planet. Joker actively stares down Harbinger hoping to distract him for a short time. Enough to maybe get Shepard though the beam.

So let Harbinger call for more. By the time the rest show up, Shepard would most likely be up the beam. Firing at Harbinger does not have to cause serious damage. The Normandy has thannix cannons, if the upgrade was purchased in ME2. It just needs to distract Harbinger. As large as the reaper is, it would take a moment for it to turn around to see who/what is firing at it. By that time, Joker would fly away and come around for another pass, if needed.

I'm sure you're going to say that Harbinger would shoot down the Normandy. It could, but why didn't it do that during the what-the-crap evac scene?

[gothpunkboy89]

Yeah. So what? If it can distract the destroyer, it can distract a capital ship. Why does firing at Harbinger have to damage it? Distracting an enemy doesn't mean damaging the enemy. If it does, great.
 

So let Harbinger call for more. By the time the rest show up, Shepard would most likely be up the beam. Firing at Harbinger does not have to cause serious damage. The Normandy has thannix cannons, if the upgrade was purchased in ME2. It just needs to distract Harbinger. As large as the reaper is, it would take a moment for it to turn around to see who/what is firing at it. By that time, Joker would fly away and come around for another pass, if needed.

I'm sure you're going to say that Harbinger would shoot down the Normandy. It could, but why didn't it do that during the what-the-crap evac scene?

 

You aren't comprehending the size scale between them. Frankly if you can't understand the difference in size between 180 M of the Destroyer you find on Tuchunka and Rannoch and 2,000M that is Harbinger. I can't help you at this point. There is a reason Dreadnoughts were limited by the Treaty of Farixen. They were bigger ships with more powerful weapons and better shileding able to take more damage and deal more damage then smaller class of ships could.

 

Again Harbinger wouldn't need to turn around to see the Normandy. Basic common sense let along military practice is very clear if you are guarding something and people are actively attacking you don't turn around because someone threw a pebble at your back. It actually hurts my head you genuinely think this would work. Tuchunka the Reaper was there to prevent you from accessing The Shroud because they poisoned it. You lure it away from that to the maw hammers. At that point it isn't protecting anything and attacks what ever attacks it. It's set up is simply trying to wipe out all forces in the area. Not protect a critical area anymore.  Rannoch it isn't trying to stop or protect anything. Only wipe out the people that are trying to shut down their control of the Geth.

 

You quite literally can not compare those to Harbinger. Not only are the Reapers involved completely different. But the objectives are equally completely different.

[themikefest]

You aren't comprehending the size scale between them.

You're assuming I don't when I do. You just can't accept that someone doesn't agree with what you're saying

 

Frankly if you can't understand the difference in size between 180 M of the Destroyer you find on Tuchunka and Rannoch and 2,000M that is Harbinger. I can't help you at this point.

Says the poster who claims the entire fleet took down the reaper on Rannoch and believes everyone on the citadel is dead after the crucible fires
 

There is a reason Dreadnoughts were limited by the Treaty of Farixen.

What does the treaty have to do with Harbinger and the beam run?

 

Basic common sense let along military practice is very clear if you are guarding something and people are actively attacking you don't turn around because someone threw a pebble at your back.

Did someone tell you that?

 

It actually hurts my head you genuinely think this would work.

Here's something for that hurt head of yours

Spoiler

 

[gothpunkboy89]

You're assuming I don't when I do. You just can't accept that someone doesn't agree with what you're saying

 

Says the poster who claims the entire fleet took down the reaper on Rannoch and believes everyone on the citadel is dead after the crucible fires
 

What does the treaty have to do with Harbinger and the beam run?

 

Did someone tell you that?

 

You seem to be stating that the weaponry capable of damaging one would do equal damage to another.  This is shown to be false on many different set ups both with Reapers and without Reapers. The entire reason the Destiny Ascension in ME1 even has the option given to save the council or not is because it's size allows much more powerful shields. Thus it can take more beating then other ships that were killed almost out right from the Geth ships. Why the SR-1 destroyed so easily by the Collector ship. Then when round 2 comes out with SR-2 which is a larger ship. With or without all the upgrades is able to stand up more in a fight.  Why the Geth Dreadnought took a Quarian Frigate to the face and only ended with a small hole in the side.  While the other ships were capable of being taken down by Quarian fleet.

 

Sovergin already showed the sheer power of their shielding. Taking on the entire 5th Fleet (or what was left of it depending on choice) while they fired at point blank range. Even if the entire 5th fleet was nothing but Frigates those ships would be capable of dealing so much more damage then a rifle, Mako or gunship could do.

 

I have proof in game you claim there isn't any because it only shows like 7 ships. Well on Thessia it only shows like 80-100 Reaper troops. Does that mean that Theassia wasn't really being over run? How about on the Citadel were the population is suppose to be in the millions. Yet the numbers across all 3 games barely reach the 100's. I can go to my local Publix and in the space of an hour see more people. Does that mean that only 100 people live on the Citadel? Horizen has a population of nearly 1 Million colonist. yet in  game we see like a dozen or two.  To create the Human-Reaper would require thousands if not millions of humans yet we only ever see a dozen in the ship alive and in harvesting mode anyways.

 

Just because it isn't shown 100% on screen doesn't mean it doesn't happen or doesn't exist. If you required 100% of all things to be shown in game then this trilogy falls apart during the first 3 minutes of ME1.

 

The Treaty exists because the Dreadnoughts are the single most powerful warships the species of the galaxy is capable of creating. Thus the limitation of it. Reaper Capital Ships (Sovereign) are shown to be able to take hits from them and keep going.  Only being destroyed though concentrated continuous fire from ships. If those Reapers can take the force of a tactical Nuclear strike the impact from any fire arm or mako cannon wouldn't do jack squat to Harbinger.  You might as well be throwing feathers at him for all the damage it would do. If those could cause any damage he would have gotten it during the initial invasion when Earth still had full military force and was throwing everything they could at the invading Reapers. Yet in that entire fight not a single Reaper was destroyed.

 

Your entire argument is based around warping the game logic to suit your need. And when the game clearly states anything opposed to your idea you ignore it anyways. The only possible way to even hope to make Harbinger even blink would to have a dozen or so frigates fire their main guns at him.

[themikefest]

snip

I'm not going to waste anymore time responding to you. Its very clear that you have a problem with people not agreeing with what you post and it bothers you. You end up talking down to them. Telling them they don't understand. And whatever else you say to get whatever point you want across. Folks have responded to your posts explaining that you're wrong on some of the stuff you post. Instead of admitting that you're wrong, you deflect to make it sound like the poster doesn't understand what you posted.

 

I'm sure you'll reply with a long winded post. Go ahead. One other thing. Make sure when you reply to give an analogy or two, if you like, since I get a good laugh out of reading those

[Arcian]

can anybody tell me why citadel was brought on sol system and particularity near earth (mass effect 3) ! and how exactly breaking from indoctrination which happens within Shepard's mind make any difference ! i mean neither it destroys reaper or end the cycle ! 
(according to the indoctrination theory)

The citadel was presumably brought to Earth because it's the only installation that can create new Reapers.

The indoctination theory doesn't postulate what happens after Shepard "wakes up". Their idea was that DLC would fill in that gap.

[gothpunkboy89]

I'm not going to waste anymore time responding to you. Its very clear that you have a problem with people not agreeing with what you post and it bothers you. You end up talking down to them. Telling them they don't understand. And whatever else you say to get whatever point you want across. Folks have responded to your posts explaining that you're wrong on some of the stuff you post. Instead of admitting that you're wrong, you deflect to make it sound like the poster doesn't understand what you posted.

 

I'm sure you'll reply with a long winded post. Go ahead. One other thing. Make sure when you reply to give an analogy or two, if you like, since I get a good laugh out of reading those

 

 

I have no problem with people disagreeing with me. As long as they don't massively warp any and all game logic to try and arrive at that point. And this isn't even a discussion about post ending effects were massive speculation is the norm.

 

I have responded to every one of your points with logic. Backing up examples when ever I can with information directly from the game. At every point you attempt to brush it off calling it excuses. Or out right ignoring or warping the game reality to suit your needs rather then what it actually states. Unless we are talking about the philosophical ramification of the 3 game endings. Making **** up to suit your need doesn't fly with me.