58 réponses à ce sujet

[MidnightWolf]

No returning character please, new cast of companions. Return only Solas and Morrigan/Mythal, well because reasons, maybe some other if plot needs it.

I object to seeing Morrigan again. Time to get rid of the wench once and for all.

[Blood Mage Reaver]

For Thom Rainier, that's up to and on the Orlesians, not me. It is them he wronged, so it is them who should decide his fate. Unlike a lot of other situations, the Inquisition has no valid voice in that matter. Even then there are times I free him, but then have him serve as a conscript(until Trespasser since at that point the Wardens claim him), having him spend the rest of his life fighting to protect others. And yes, Calpernia almost certainly would. But considering she and her people killed thousands to tens of thousands of people and inflicted suffering on millions, while planning to do it to literally everyone on the planet who won't submit, that's not an unreasonable ruling. 

 

And? As you said, my character can have a different mindset. It's not unfounded, since other characters have the same or similar mindsets. In all of my many playthroughs of DAI, I've never done the execution option when it came to judgements. Unlike Thom Rainier and Calpernia, my Inquisitors aren't murderers. 

 

Ok, you really didn't bother searching about Calpernia's character at all. She is the only character amongst the Venatori who isn't an arrogant blue blooded mage that sees others as inferior and she certainly wasn't planning to inflict suffering and slavery over the rest of Thedas as her endgoal.

 

Calpernia actually believes that Corypheus will unleash a paradise on Earth, she wants to see a reborn Tevinter Imperium free of slavery and creating all sorts of wonders.

 

She is basically just like Leliana whose ultimate goals and beliefs are absolutely good and altruistic but is willing to dirt her hands to no avail to obtain them.

 

Leliana basically wants to solve every problem of the Inquisition through murder, threats or blackmail yet is depicted as the most idealistic and good intentioned character after Josephine.

 

Calpernia's problem is no different than that of many German commanders who had nothing to do with the Holocaust yet fought adamantly for the sake of their homeland, they actually believed the mad man in power wanted to create an utopia.

 

You can't judge an enemy general based on casualties he inflicted on the battlefield, that is expected of his position and is covered by the laws of war. Unlike Samson, Calpernia had no direct involvement in much of the atrocities commited by the Venatori and her side plot makes abundantly clear that Corypheus never gave her true command over said faction because her true purpose from the beggining was to become his bounded slave after drinking from the Well of Sorrows.

[Joseph Warrick]

I would seriously laugh if Calpernia returns in DA4 and an Inquisitor who sided with the mages has no idea who she is. Considering the default is ally with mages, I wouldn't be surprised if this somehow happens

Wouldn't be different to Inquisition half-expecting us to know who Celene, Briala, Cole and Fiona are because they appeared in some comic.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Ok, you really didn't bother searching about Calpernia's character at all. She is the only character amongst the Venatori who isn't an arrogant blue blooded mage that sees others as inferior and she certainly wasn't planning to inflict suffering and slavery over the rest of Thedas as her endgoal.

Yes I have. You need to stop making assumptions about others. Just because someone disagrees with you doesn't mean they are ignorant on the subject.

The ends don't justify the means. Her means involved committing or assist in committing atrocity after atrocity. 

 

Calpernia actually believes that Corypheus will unleash a paradise on Earth, she wants to see a reborn Tevinter Imperium free of slavery and creating all sorts of wonders.

And yet she endorse the mass slavery of thousands of people. 

 

She is basically just like Leliana whose ultimate goals and beliefs are absolutely good and altruistic but is willing to dirt her hands to no avail to obtain them.

 

Leliana basically wants to solve every problem of the Inquisition through murder, threats or blackmail yet is depicted as the most idealistic and good intentioned character after Josephine.

Again, ends do not justify the means. I do not support Leliana's actions and almost never use her in the War Table. 

 

No, she isn't. There are other characters who are easily more idealistic and good intentioned than Leliana. For example Cole, whose entire reason for being with us is to help. No ulterior motive, just because he wants to. 

 

Calpernia's problem is no different than that of many German commanders who had nothing to do with the Holocaust yet fought adamantly for the sake of their homeland, they actually believed the mad man in power wanted to create an utopia.

Not a valid comparison since Calpernia had a direct hand in some of the atrocities committed. She isn't an Erwin Rommel character who repeatedly disagreed with and ignored their superior's orders when it meant causing suffering to those who don't deserve it.

 

You can't judge an enemy general based on casualties he inflicted on the battlefield, that is expected of his position and is covered by the laws of war. Unlike Samson, Calpernia had no direct involvement in much of the atrocities commited by the Venatori and her side plot makes abundantly clear that Corypheus never gave her true command over said faction because her true purpose from the beggining was to become his bounded slave after drinking from the Well of Sorrows.

I'm not judging her on the casualties inflicted on the battlefield. I'm talking about the atrocities committed on non-combatants when there wasn't a battlefield, like all the Tranquil that were killed by the Venatori to turn their skulls into Ocularum, the countless civilians killed while enslaved by the Venatori through inhumane work conditions or giving them to the Red Templars to grow more Red Lyrium, possibly burn half of Denerim to the ground, etc. And yes, she did have a direct hand in those. Corypheus did give her true command over the Venatori, just like he did with Samson for the Red Templars. Both led their factions yet answered to him, like a general would their commander in chief. Samson was also planned to be a vessel candidate for the Well of Sorrows, and yet you aren't using the same defense despite him and Calpernia being in the exact same position. 

[Fiery Phoenix]

Yes, I want to see her back. Even if it involves fighting her again.

 

I object to seeing Morrigan again. Time to get rid of the wench once and for all.

 

I object to this post.

[AnimalBoy]

Minor characters have had their roles expanded before due to fan popularity so why not her too?

 

I'm a very forgiving person and believe in giving people second chances so i rarely sentenced anyone to death. I'd have no problem giving her a chance. Florianne for example, is alive in my game because i like her.

[Blood Mage Reaver]

Yes I have. You need to stop making assumptions about others. Just because someone disagrees with you doesn't mean they are ignorant on the subject.

The ends don't justify the means. Her means involved committing or assist in committing atrocity after atrocity. 

 

And yet she endorse the mass slavery of thousands of people. 

 

Again, ends do not justify the means. I do not support Leliana's actions and almost never use her in the War Table. 

 

No, she isn't. There are other characters who are easily more idealistic and good intentioned than Leliana. For example Cole, whose entire reason for being with us is to help. No ulterior motive, just because he wants to. 

 

Not a valid comparison since Calpernia had a direct hand in some of the atrocities committed. She isn't an Erwin Rommel character who repeatedly disagreed with and ignored their superior's orders when it meant causing suffering to those who don't deserve it.

 

I'm not judging her on the casualties inflicted on the battlefield. I'm talking about the atrocities committed on non-combatants when there wasn't a battlefield, like all the Tranquil that were killed by the Venatori to turn their skulls into Ocularum or the countless civilians killed while enslaved by the Venatori through inhumane work conditions, giving them to the Red Templars to grow more Red Lyrium, possibly burn half of Denerim to the ground, etc. And yes, she did have a direct hand in those. Corypheus did give her true command over the Venatori, just like he did with Samson for the Red Templars. Both led their factions yet answered to him, like a general would their commander in chief. Samson was also planned to be a vessel candidate for the Well of Sorrows, and yet you aren't using the same defense despite him and Calpernia being in the exact same position. 

No you didn't, you basically ignored everything I said and kept insisting that Calpernia was behind every Venatori crime despite the game showing repeated evidence that she wasn't and that Corypheus was using her as a puppet leader.

 

She is openly anti-slavery and even killed slavers who treated their charges badly, she piously believed that Corypheus would restore Tevinter to glory while ending slavery yet you claim she had a hand in slaving civilians and giving them to be used for red lyrium production.

 

You just don't bother searching for anything you say and keep acting like other people attack you to earn sympathy for unfounded arguments.

 

Had you actually researched, you would know that Samson was fully aware of the fact red lyrium would mutate him and rob him of his free will but kept serving Corypheus because he wanted to go out in a blaze of glory.

 

Samson never had noble goals, he was a lyrium addled junkie who turned against the Chantry because his ax crazy Knight Commander kicked him out for petty reasons.

 

Even if you reinstated him as a templar on DA2 he still joins Corypheus and goes on to corrupt innocent templars and harvest innocent people just to fuel his own glory seeking suicidal tantrum.

 

Calpernia by contrast was a mistreated slave led to Venatori service under misterious circumstances and who conveniently rose to leadership position just as Corypheus took power over the organization.

 

Unlike Samson who knew that Corypheus was using him and simply didn't care so long as he got more lyrium for it, Calpernia was deliberately left in the dark about a huge deal of his plans while other Venatori agents commited numerous crimes which considerably clashed with her goals and ideals.

 

In hindsight, considering that the rebel mages were largely opposed to joining the Venatori it wouldn't be surprising if Corypheus appointed Calpernia as Commander simply because she, besides being powerful, was a relately benign and sympathetic figure who could convince them of following her cause.

 

In a nutshell, evidence from the game blatantly points towards Calpernia not knowing the true colors of her faction much less having direct control or involvement in said faction's crimes.

 

You can either ignore the evidence and disregard all logic regarding her character arc or you can learn to search before judging people based on unfounded assumptions.

[Gervaise]

Would just point out that if you let her go, Dorian approves and says that Tevinter could do with more people like her, so clearly he doesn't believe she is responsible for all the bad things that the Venatori have done because he wants the majority of them dead as being bad for Tevinter.   She actually goes father than Dorian in her ambitions for a reformed Tevinter because he defends slavery, whilst she, an ex-slave, wants everyone freed and made citizens of the Imperium.  

 

She may not reappear but the ambiguity over her death and her appearance in Mage Killer, suggest that we probably haven't seen the last of her.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

No you don't, you basically ignored everything I said and kept insisting that Calpernia was behind every Venatori crime despite the game showing repeated evidence that she wasn't and that Corypheus was using her as a puppet leader.

You're doing exactly the same, just with the opposite viewpoint. 

 

She is openly anti-slavery and even killed slavers who treated their charges badly, she piously believed that Corypheus would restore Tevinter to glory while ending slavery yet you claim she had a hand in slaving civilians and giving them to be used for red lyrium production.

Because she did. 

 

You just don't bother searching for anything you say and keep acting like other people attack you to earn sympathy for unfounded arguments.

I never acted like you attacked me. I said you shouldn't assume that people who don't agree with you are ignorant on the matter. How is that acting like a victim?

 

Had you actually researched, you would know that Samson was fully aware of the fact red lyrium would mutate him and rob him of his free will but kept serving Corypheus because he wanted to go out in a blaze of glory.

Here you go saying I haven't researched again. Yes, I know Samson was fully aware of what his fate was. Calpernia was also fully aware of everything she and her organization did for Corypheus.

 

Samson never had noble goals, he was a lyrium addled junkie who turned against the Chantry because his ax crazy Knight Commander kicked him out for petty reasons.

 

Even if you reinstated him as a templar on DA2 he still joins Corypheus and goes on to corrupt innocent templars and harvest innocent people just to fuel his own glory seeking suicidal tantrum.

Noble is a subjective thing. There have been and are many cultures that see going out in a blaze of glory as a noble thing for a warrior to do. Even in Thedas we see this, with groups like the Legion of the Dead and the Grey Wardens. I'm not supporting his actions by any stretch, but stating how it can be more nuanced that you are depicting it. 

 

Yes, he and the Red Templars do all those things. You know who else does? Calpernia's Venatori, as shown on multiple occasions throughout the game, like for example how they were smuggling Red Lyrium to Tevinter to bolster their numbers with Tevinter slaves and poor citizens. 

 

Calpernia by contrast was a mistreated slave led to Venatori service under misterious circumstances and who conveniently rose to leadership position just as Corypheus took power over the organization.

 

Unlike Samson who knew that Corypheus was using him and simply didn't care so long as he got more lyrium for it, Calpernia was deliberately left in the dark about a huge deal of his plans while other Venatori agents commited numerous crimes which considerably clashed with her goals and ideals.

So to use your own words she's throwing a tantrum against the people who oppressed her? Interesting how you condemn Samson for it yet praise Calpernia. 

I want you to provide proof she was in the dark about what her lieutenants were up to. The only thing she was in the dark about was Corypheus' plans for her. 

 

Meanwhile here is an example of proof that she did know of what was happening: 

Esteemed Magisters:

It shames me to notice bickering among some of you. We perform a great work here. The dwarven relics in the tombs are instructions on replicating the masterpieces of one of their finest Paragons. Lady Calpernia wishes us to retrieve them with all haste, and you know she speaks for the Elder One in all things. He remembers a time when this place was not a blasted wasteland, and if He desires its secrets brought up to the light, we shall obey. Gladly. Without strife that delays us.

 

I trust this will no longer be a concern.

 

Overseer Jullex

http://dragonage.wik...atori_Magisters

 

She knew of the mission in the Hissing Wastes, which involved using slaves to excavate Dwarven ruins. 

 

In hindsight, considering that the rebel mages were largely opposed to joining the Venatori it wouldn't be surprising if Corypheus appointed Calpernia as Commander simply because she, besides being powerful, was a relately benign and sympathetic figure who could convince them of following her cause.

Calpernia was already leader of the Venatori before the events of Inquisition, so no that's not the reason. 

Besides which the rebel mages did not join voluntarily but were mind-controlled, similar to the Templars. So yeah, how was she not supportive of using slaves when she literally had an army of them? 

 

In a nutshell, evidence from the game blatantly points towards Calpernia not knowing the true colors of her faction much less having direct control or involvement in said faction's crimes.

 

You can either ignore the evidence and disregard all logic regarding her character arc or you can learn to search before judging people based on unfounded assumptions.

No, it doesn't. At best it shows she is ambivalent about what they are doing, which I have never disagreed with. I know she has her doubts about Corypheus and their methods, but she is willing to continue to do so since in her mind the ends justify the means. 

 

I've researched and discussed the topic since the game came out, so I'm judging her on the facts presented in the game. But it is clear that you won't be swayed by seeing her as an innocent victim, so I suggest we agree to disagree.

[Cyrus Amell]

I never played a game where I sided with the Templars and had the pleasure of meeting her, so I don't quite know what the big deal is. 

 

Still, even if the player kills her there is always the chance that they just left her for dead and she survived. Would be an interesting figure to meet again, and I would love a party member with such an interesting background. 

[Mistic]

I think most of the problems that arise when judging Calpernia is that we don't know how much she was involved in the Venatori's worst actions. Given that we never have time to really interrogate her, both positions ("She knew all along, she was an accomplice in crimes against Thedas" versus "she was naive and deluded, she wasn't aware of what other Venatori commanders were doing") can be supported.

 

Or there's a third one. It wouldn't be the first time that people in important positions willingly close their eyes for the good of the cause, even if they personally don't like it or would never do it. Out of sight, out of mind.

[Secret Rare]

I object to seeing Morrigan again. Time to get rid of the wench once and for all.

Why i love this post?

[BansheeOwnage]

For Thom Rainier, that's up to and on the Orlesians, not me. It is them he wronged, so it is them who should decide his fate. Unlike a lot of other situations, the Inquisition has no valid voice in that matter. Even then there are times I free him, but then have him serve as a conscript(until Trespasser since at that point the Wardens claim him), having him spend the rest of his life fighting to protect others. And yes, Calpernia almost certainly would. But considering she and her people killed thousands to tens of thousands of people and inflicted suffering on millions, while planning to do it to literally everyone on the planet who won't submit, that's not an unreasonable ruling.

Those are really large numbers! I never felt like that many people were affected/killed. Do you have numbers, or are you guessing? I admit I don't have numbers either, but that just seems really high to me.

 

As for Calpernia returning, I definitely think she should in some capacity, since I think her character has potential. I'm not sure she should be a companion though, because it would hinder roleplay in some ways because of her past. But I'd like to run into her again, especially as the Inquisitor.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Those are really large numbers! I never felt like that many people were affected/killed. Do you have numbers, or are you guessing? I admit I don't have numbers either, but that just seems really high to me.

A bit of both. We know the documented population(unknown if they count people like the Avvar, Dalish, etc who live in within the borders) of Ferelden is 1 million during the events of Dragon Age: Origins. Using common sense, the nations of Orlais and Nevarra have to have more than that, and the Free Marches around the same or maybe a little less. We also know that people beyond those nations were affected as well, like in Tevinter.

[rapscallioness]

Well, apparently she is a controversial character which is right up BW's alley.

 

So, she may indeed appear again. I would not be against it. Even as a companion.

[Blood Mage Reaver]

You're doing exactly the same, just with the opposite viewpoint.

Because she did.

I never acted like you attacked me. I said you shouldn't assume that people who don't agree with you are ignorant on the matter. How is that acting like a victim?

Here you go saying I haven't researched again. Yes, I know Samson was fully aware of what his fate was. Calpernia was also fully aware of everything she and her organization did for Corypheus.

Noble is a subjective thing. There have been and are many cultures that see going out in a blaze of glory as a noble thing for a warrior to do. Even in Thedas we see this, with groups like the Legion of the Dead and the Grey Wardens. I'm not supporting his actions by any stretch, but stating how it can be more nuanced that you are depicting it.

Yes, he and the Red Templars do all those things. You know who else does? Calpernia's Venatori, as shown on multiple occasions throughout the game, like for example how they were smuggling Red Lyrium to Tevinter to bolster their numbers with Tevinter slaves and poor citizens.

So to use your own words she's throwing a tantrum against the people who oppressed her? Interesting how you condemn Samson for it yet praise Calpernia.
I want you to provide proof she was in the dark about what her lieutenants were up to. The only thing she was in the dark about was Corypheus' plans for her.

Meanwhile here is an example of proof that she did know of what was happening:
Esteemed Magisters:
It shames me to notice bickering among some of you. We perform a great work here. The dwarven relics in the tombs are instructions on replicating the masterpieces of one of their finest Paragons. Lady Calpernia wishes us to retrieve them with all haste, and you know she speaks for the Elder One in all things. He remembers a time when this place was not a blasted wasteland, and if He desires its secrets brought up to the light, we shall obey. Gladly. Without strife that delays us.

I trust this will no longer be a concern.

Overseer Jullex
http://dragonage.wik...atori_Magisters

She knew of the mission in the Hissing Wastes, which involved using slaves to excavate Dwarven ruins.


Calpernia was already leader of the Venatori before the events of Inquisition, so no that's not the reason.
Besides which the rebel mages did not join voluntarily but were mind-controlled, similar to the Templars. So yeah, how was she not supportive of using slaves when she literally had an army of them?

No, it doesn't. At best it shows she is ambivalent about what they are doing, which I have never disagreed with. I know she has her doubts about Corypheus and their methods, but she is willing to continue to do so since in her mind the ends justify the means.

I've researched and discussed the topic since the game came out, so I'm judging her on the facts presented in the game. But it is clear that you won't be swayed by seeing her as an innocent victim, so I suggest we agree to disagree.

Those are fine points, at least you are actually backing up what you said with text from the game.

The second text doesn't make it clear wether Calpernia knew that slaves were involved but at least support the notion that she was willing to ignore the consequences of her ruthless pursuits.

I don't recall exactly how the mages came to be under mind control, need to do more research on the subject but according to Alexius they would receive full citizenship after 10 years which would explain how Calpernia wouldn't see them as slaves.

One thing we can agree on is that we both want her to return, be it do redeem her or punish her for her crimes.

[Dai Grepher]

For the record, I think the people used as slaves for minding red lyrium were all gathered up by the Freemen of the Dales, with the exception of those in Sharnia that were sold by Mistress Poulin. I think Carrol had some slaves too, but maybe he was just receiving them from whoever we kill in that one chateau.

 

I think Calpernia was freeing her slaves and having them work as spies or researchers.

[BansheeOwnage]

A bit of both. We know the documented population(unknown if they count people like the Avvar, Dalish, etc who live in within the borders) of Ferelden is 1 million during the events of Dragon Age: Origins. Using common sense, the nations of Orlais and Nevarra have to have more than that, and the Free Marches around the same or maybe a little less. We also know that people beyond those nations were affected as well, like in Tevinter.

Wow, there are more people in Thedas than I thought! From the size of the cities we've seen, and how sparse settlements seem to be, I'm surprised.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Wow, there are more people in Thedas than I thought! From the size of the cities we've seen, and how sparse settlements seem to be, I'm surprised.

Yeah, but really it's not that surprising if you think about it. The state of Montana has a population of around one million people, and it is famous for how sparse the population is. Plus with both DAO and DAI they weren't really able to capture the full scale of the major cities due to technological limitations. 

[MaxQuartiroli]

Wouldn't be different to Inquisition half-expecting us to know who Celene, Briala, Cole and Fiona are because they appeared in some comic.

 

And just brought back a character from a DLC as the main antagonist...

[Patricia08]

 

I hope so she is so pretty 

[Ranadiel Marius]

I'm hoping we'll see her again. I'm hoping she'll be a companion. Let's make her romancable while we are at it. Hell let's throw Marius as a companion in for good measure and make them Bioware first polyamorous romance. I'd probably have my DA4 protagonist go for it.

[Big I]

I predict both Calpernia and Maevaris will be DA4 companions in order to give contrasting looks at the Imperium. I assume Dorian is going to get the NPC treatment like Morrigan did.

[Ieldra]

Odd, I was under the impression that Calpernia bought slaves to free them and was generally well treating of her subordinates. It's also important to notice that unlike Samson she didn't have full control over her faction's actions as the Venatori are comprised of several members who joined for different reasons.

 

It's just that, for all the damage she does, Calpernia is portrayed as a good intentioned but misguided character.

 

I could see her reappearing after losing her affiliation to the Venatori and trying to find a new path. For all intents and purposes she isn't morally worse than Thom Rainier who slaughtered an entire family and let his subbordinates be hanged just for money, if you can forgive him for trying to make amends then you can forgive her.

No surprise here - Hanako Ikezawa hates everyone who isn't morally perfect.

 

I like Calpernia exactly because she's two-faced - hero to some, villain to others - and I'd rather like to see her return in DA4. I've heard Patrick Weekes likes her and her fate was ambiguous exactly because the DA team wanted to be free to include her in future games. Add that the next game will likely be set in Tevinter, and I think the her chances are very good.

[Ieldra]

I predict both Calpernia and Maevaris will be DA4 companions in order to give contrasting looks at the Imperium. I assume Dorian is going to get the NPC treatment like Morrigan did.

People who become companions tend to lose stature. I'd rather have Calpernia not suffer that fate and have her as a possible ally instead, depending on a choice you make in the game.