53 réponses à ce sujet

[Mark (Gekrakel)]

I have a question about elemental mines; I read something.. somewhere.. about the hunter that claimed the alchemist was a much better character for elemental mines.  However, having now played a good amount of hunter and a small bit of alchemist, I have my doubts.

 

First, the hunter's weapon has a much larger base damage and the mines skills are both 50% damage.

 

Second, the hunter gets the Set Them Up passive, which increases damage by 25% more for mines and traps.  

 

Considering neither one has a real crunch for stamina due to slow time outs and nothing to really decrease the timeouts, it seems like hunter would be far superior.

 

First, their weapon hits for like twice the base damage of the alchemist, and then another 25% on top of that.  So, it seems a hunter's elemental mines would hit for 2.5x the alchemists.

 

I know an alchemist can spam the mines with the fire potion, but that doesn't seem to offset it to me.  And it costs another slot anyway.

 

Opinions?  Experiences?

[JiaJM98]

To me, alchemist is usually the mine spam or shatter guy, because she has little else to offer besides this (or you can build her as a nerfed assassin, but why would you?) Plus elemental mine spam just simply feels good  Hakkon dagger has 2 stamina passives which is pretty good for mine spam (plus the shatter combos) and you can pair up with bloody bargain to let you throw more volleys per fire flask, or use bosuns for monster damage if you are the patient / strategical type who knows how to play.

 

I never had much love for hunter if I'm honest. For me, he is essentially a hybrid between nerfed version of archer, nerfed version of alchemist and super nerfed version of SS.

 

Hook and tackle then leap shot on the face feels good, but no thanks for the CD without opportunity knocks.

The occasional elemental mine is nice, but come on... CD + depletes all stamina and you don't get a lot of good opportunities to use it. In most cases for hunter stealth spike mine will simply do better. But then you think of his big brother archer, and you realise, why don't you just switch to archer and spam spike mines?

Throwing blades is always nice with the armour pen and damage. But Geeze... Still, no Opportunities knocks or Flow of battle, what's the joy if you can't spam it like a SS? (Plus you get Throwing blades from lv1 as SS, unlike hunter which only becomes available at pretty high levels given you will probably want go deep into both trees and need to invest lots of skill points before the build is complete. What's the point of playing a class that you can only start to rock after you reached level 16+? A couple more matches and you will be back to the start again.)

Tez bane plus full draw is pretty sweet I admit. But I will never give up on Hakkon plus the pace is just... too slow. No love for that either.

[lcneed]

Fire flask put down like 1000 mines... flank attack instantly put you back in stealth.  In between fire flask refresh, you could play like a short assassin apprentice.   I think alchemist won.    It is great when you are in a group.  But if you are soloing... every foe freezes when you go in stealth and they don't step on your mines.    So you really need a friend when you play alchemist.

[Mark (Gekrakel)]

The occasional elemental mine is nice, but come on... CD + depletes all stamina and you don't get a lot of good opportunities to use it. In most cases for hunter stealth spike mine will simply do better. But then you think of his big brother archer, and you realise, why don't you just switch to archer and spam spike mines?

 

I don't bother with stealth for the hunter, when I can help it.  I can see how the stealth / spike mine would be nice though.

 

"Why not switch to archer and spam spike mines?"  Because I don't want to take a single skill off my archer.  Once you get Opportunity Knocks and Dance of Death with the archer, he becomes a damage dealing machine.. so I don't want to be messing around with little spikes and being up in people's faces when I could just sit back and fire long shot and explosive shot every second, with a good group.

 

And I do agree on your general take on the hunter.  He never suddenly "turns the corner" to become godlike, unlike the archer.

 

Still, playing with the mines is kind of fun, and has worked out well in the FC level 4 a couple times.   

[Mark (Gekrakel)]

Fire flask put down like 1000 mines...

 

Yeah, I need to try this for sure.  It seems like it would be a damn overkill, and then eventually just explode on their own.. but will try this in a couple hours.

[lcneed]

Yeah, I need to try this for sure.  It seems like it would be a damn overkill, and then eventually just explode on their own.. but will try this in a couple hours.

 

Make sure you do not upgrade the Elemental Mine if you are using Fire Flask.

[Thesexyscot]

guh i shudder at the thought of playing hunters, much prefer being an alky

[LordOfPit]

Elemental Mines? My Alchemist is too busy killing stuff to stand around and throw skittles.

 

Between Bloody Bargin's RAMPAGE and Savage Thorn (Guard on Hit) with Ice+Fire flasks, Flank Attack and Stealth I'm just running around slaughtering...

[JiaJM98]

Elemental Mines? My Alchemist is too busy killing stuff to stand around and throw skittles.

Between Bloody Bargin's RAMPAGE and Savage Thorn (Guard on Hit) with Ice+Fire flasks, Flank Attack and Stealth I'm just running around slaughtering...

Savage thorn is for scrubs SS don't need it, and everyone else has ultra fragil guard anywhere.

Might change my mind if they introduce % guard on kill though...

[JiaJM98]

I don't bother with stealth for the hunter, when I can help it. I can see how the stealth / spike mine would be nice though.

"Why not switch to archer and spam spike mines?" Because I don't want to take a single skill off my archer. Once you get Opportunity Knocks and Dance of Death with the archer, he becomes a damage dealing machine.. so I don't want to be messing around with little spikes and being up in people's faces when I could just sit back and fire long shot and explosive shot every second, with a good group.

And I do agree on your general take on the hunter. He never suddenly "turns the corner" to become godlike, unlike the archer.

Still, playing with the mines is kind of fun, and has worked out well in the FC level 4 a couple times.

Lol spike trap on archer is for carpet bombing and abuse assassins.

My favourite archer style:
litter the map with spike traps as you move
spam long shot and draw aggro (did they nerf archer's threat gen some point? I'm getting almost no aggro with long shot now, compared to the ultimate map wide taunt machine back then)
when those idiots walk towards you, leap shot on their face. no need to keep walk up close any more XD

when I see enemy archers build up, i know it's time for me to advance

Shame archer don't have hook and tackle, otherwise I'd be playing a hypster ninja archer all the time... Spamming evade to close up to enemies waste too much stamina whilst you are not hitting or killing.

[LordOfPit]

Savage thorn is for scrubs SS don't need it, and everyone else has ultra fragil guard anywhere.

Might change my mind if they introduce % guard on kill though...

Scrubs shmubs... that dagger is one of the best I've got, of course I'll use it!

[dhexer]

Upgraded caltrops, mine, explosive shot and leaping shot was my favourite abilities on archer since they nerfed longshot. On topic i think they are too different to compare. On harder difficulties alchy any day, she is just good in a very unbalanced way above perilous.

[Proto]

Make sure you do not upgrade the Elemental Mine if you are using Fire Flask.

....

[Jugger nuggss]

Make sure you do not upgrade the Elemental Mine if you are using Fire Flask.

Were you having a stroke as you wrote that?

[lcneed]

Were you having a stroke as you wrote that?

 

You know when I was playing alchemist.. I didn't have Hakkon.  I remember that if you upgrade mines, you used up all your stamina in the first throw... and you have nothing left to go back into stealth either by Stealth or Flank Attack.   With Hakkon, it maybe different when the mines kills gave back stamina....

[Jugger nuggss]

You know when I was playing alchemist.. I didn't have Hakkon.  I remember that if you upgrade mines, you used up all your stamina in the first throw... and you have nothing left to go back into stealth either by Stealth or Flank Attack.   With Hakkon, it maybe different when the mines kills gave back stamina....

Upgraded Mines lets you throw Moar and upgraded FF ignores cooldowns. Sooooooo mannnnyyyy mines!

[Proto]

Hang3d Man had 250 games on the alchemist without upgrading them.

You all make me smile.

[Jugger nuggss]

Hang3dman is a scrub and shall be treated accordingly. Go play Smite, Pronto.

[Silversmurf]

Upgraded Mines lets you throw Moar and upgraded FF ignores cooldowns. Sooooooo mannnnyyyy mines!

So many space mines sometimes too Always makes me giggle.

[lcneed]

Upgraded Mines lets you throw Moar and upgraded FF ignores cooldowns. Sooooooo mannnnyyyy mines!

 

I just tested it and upgraded mine only let you throw more mines in the first throw.  First throw drain your stamina completely so you have nothing left.  So the next 5 or 6 throws (from upgraded FF no cooldown) will keep your stamina drained but not adding many more mines (1 extra mine for every 5 stm and you have no stm left so no extra mine).  And mine kills don't seem to trigger HoK most of the time.  So if you got hit a few times while throwing the mines... you are left with no stamina, half health, and only using basic attack to try to get some HoK waiting for stamina to get back up to go back in stealth.   For me, the extra mines on the first throw and extra point spent don't seem to offset the complete drain of stamina in the process.

[Mark (Gekrakel)]

I just tested it and upgraded mine only let you throw more mines in the first throw. 

 

Exactly.. confirmed.. I tested this last night and that is what I saw.  Not sure if this was nerfed somewhere along the way.

[lcneed]

Exactly.. confirmed.. I tested this last night and that is what I saw.  Not sure if this was nerfed somewhere along the way.

 

Maybe?  The first time I tried it I was expecting extra mines on every throw and kept full stamina all the time... it was not the case.   Since then I have never taken the mine upgrade until yesterday to just to test it again.

[Proto]

snip

 

Go take a look at your damage numbers after a mine spam with the upgrade. Then do a mine spam without the upgrade.

 

Damage is much higher with the upgrade. 

 

Like you mentioned, stamina isn't really an issue with the Hakkon dagger and dance of death.

[JiaJM98]

Go take a look at your damage numbers after a mine spam with the upgrade. Then do a mine spam without the upgrade.

Damage is much higher with the upgrade.

Like you mentioned, stamina isn't really an issue with the Hakkon dagger and dance of death.

I don't play alch much, but I have to side with pronto on this occasion...

[Mark (Gekrakel)]

Well, despite the fact the fire flask says "your abilities cost no stamina", using the upgraded elemental mines ability does in fact, use ALL your stamina.  So, clearly they don't work with one another the way some think they do.

 

Proto, are you saying despite the fact the first and second casts of elemental mines under fire flask appear vastly different in mine density, that the second mines you cast are somehow more powerful than the first?  The second time I cast mines, I probably get 1/3 the number of mines from the first cast.