Yeah I read that to refresh my memory - but it is not clear (what a surprise) what the shroud is either. Sometimes it's something orbit, sometimes it's something in the atmosphere. Or both.
Very true.
Oh and sorry for the crazy looking post, dang copy and paste formatting 
Given you used the term "realistic" I am merely illustrating that if such a choice had to be made in "real life" such a choice would likely end up being extremely troubling to the person who had to make it. Literally deciding who lives and who dies based on...what? What did they live for, and what did they die for?
If a story (and games like Mass Effect are stories as much as games) who lives and who dies should have meaning. Not be relegated to an intellectual of philosophical exercise.
But what if someone doesn't see an effective "lesser" evil? What if they are all equally bad? Or so bad that even the "lesser" evil is so repugnant as to be a non-starter? I refer you to the meme i posted a few pages back. Sure "lesser evils" can make for interesting debate. But it requires a given value of "lesser". It has to be a choice the player can live with.
I don't see the actual problem here. Except possibly a resource issue, since you'd need to accomodate different PC reactions. Someone like Quarian Master Race wouldn't want his Shepard to care about picking an option like Destroy, and as a matter of RP that's a completely legitimate desire.
I agree. Thessia was another spot where people wished they could laugh at Joker's stupid commend on the asari. Or be more angry at losing the beacon to Cerberus than the fall of Thessia.
In practice, doesn't this principle mean limiting choices to whatever the most-sensitive player can handle?
I'd say it's more of a case of not going overboard with the darkness. I mean, really, are you going to accuse people who have a problem with genocide as being "overly sensitive"?
How many people complained about DAO's endings?
^DA:O was pretty much the reverse scenario. I think DA:I pretty much confirmed the (overall) irrelevance of the Dark Ritual.
^DA:O was pretty much the reverse scenario. I think DA:I pretty much confirmed the (overall) irrelevance of the Dark Ritual.
I'd say choices actually mattering across games are very much the exception rather than the rule. So I wouldn't hold that up as an important criteria,
I agree. Thessia was another spot where people wished they could laugh at Joker's stupid commend on the asari.
Yes I wanted Shepard to laugh at the joke. I also wanted Shepard to tell her own joke about what happened on Thessia
Or be more angry at losing the beacon to Cerberus than the fall of Thessia.
I wanted Shepard to tell the councilor Cerberus may not of got away with the information if her species revealed the artifact earlier. Then I would hang up on her.
Given that the Shroud tower was destroyed in ME3, doesn't it make curing the genophage rather moot as everyone is going to die from the solar radiation / out of control climate change the Krogan caused in the first place by nuking themselves?
Also, if the ending slide had shown the reality - a clutch of 1000 new born krogan instead of a rather humanesque krogan holding one baby - that might have helped matters.
But then Bioware could never make their mind up about Krogan biology or the genophage,
Agree completely with bolded part. Don't think it was their intention to make up "our" minds about the genophage itself, but rather leave it open enough for the players to draw their own conclusions about the nature of it and whether or not it represented an "abortive" or "preventative" form of birth control... a sensitive subject in modern society. The ending slide, though, definitely should have shown a "clutch" of newborn krogan.
I'd say choices actually mattering across games are very much the exception rather than the rule. So I wouldn't hold that up as an important criteria,
But the talk is oriented around the balance of moral dilemmas, it's definitely relevant. We have been talking about Bioware's balance in confirming actions as right vs. wrong.
Mass Effect 3's ending is still better in that regard because it doesn't have a single "best" outcome....for now. 
But the talk is oriented around the balance of moral dilemmas, it's definitely relevant. We have been talking about Bioware's balance in confirming actions as right vs. wrong.
Mass Effect 3's ending is still better in that regard because it doesn't have a single "best" outcome....for now.
And that's why I like DAO's endings. None of the options are particularly "right" or "wrong". Not even the Dark Ritual. With or without DAI.
And that's why I like DAO's endings. None of the options are particularly "right" or "wrong". Not even the Dark Ritual. With or without DAI.
Wait, how is the Dark Ritual in any capacity not the best ending in the context of DA:I? There's no counter-balance to it.
Wait, how is the Dark Ritual in any capacity not the best ending in the context of DA:I? There's no counter-balance to it.
There's still an Old God soul out there. Free to do Maker-knows what.
There's still an Old God soul out there. Free to do Maker-knows what.
Ironically, the "Maker" is responsible (directly or indirectly) for much more death and suffering than any one of the old gods, assuming that the chantry version of the "Black City" story is correct.
After all, the blight is his punishment, and I couldn't think about a worse weapon when it comes to indiscriminately destroying and killing the living.
Assuming factors remain constant, which can be dangerous. In the long term, is the plan to keep a guard surrounding the self-professed genocidal aliens to make certain they don't achieve FTL ever again? What about Rachni-birth rates? If I recall correctly, those are also fairly high. In the long term, survival means the potential for renewed warfare. And what separates the Rachni from any other military conflict, is that there is no such indicator that they can at least be convinced to lay down their "arms" so to speak. So there's more than a few factors at play which make just leaving them on their home planet difficult.
There is another point to consider: It's unclear in the lore, but the Rachni may be using "organic technology" similarly to other creepy-crawly tropes.
Also: The Rachni have genetic memories. Those two factors combined make it next to impossible to prevent them from reaching the stars again.
(and relatively quickly too)
No, but I wouldn't kill her either. For the life of me, I can not imagine why: "Leave the Rachni in containment for the Council to decide." wasn't an option in ME 1 but I digress.
Even if the Queen was shown to be just as aggressive and non-communicative as reports of the Rachni Wars indicated I still wouldn't kill her for the same reason why I wouldn't kill a dinosaur that scientists had cloned just because the creature in question was dangerous. A "mindless" Rachni under our control has enormous possibilities for warfare and colonization efforts.
For the warfare side of it; thoughts of sending legions of remote controlled Rachni into battle aside; we could stand to learn a lot from the natural weapons and armor of this species. If we could isolate the genes and enzymes that lead to the development of the Rachni's exoskeletons we would be able to 'grow' our own suits of armor that are resistant to modern weapons. Likewise for their acid spit and claws, if we could weaponize those elements for frontline troops they would be able to completely by pass kinetic barriers and modern armor.
For the colonization side of things, we could easily send a clutch of drones and warriors to a planet to set up colony foundations. They wouldn't even have to be 'sane' Rachni either, we could just as easily make due with the insane variants. These bugs could be engineered with genetically encoded "kill switches" that activate after several weeks. In the meantime these Rachni would set up proto-colonies; perfect footprints for colonization efforts of other species; utilizing only the natural tools at their disposal, and all without the need for expensive pressurized suits, oxygen or other supplies.
There is no reason to kill the Queen, even if she was insanely hostile, the research potentials for the species is too great a chance to throw away.
Of course all of this is moot anyway since the Rachni are sentient, and actually do live up to their word.
Well, my answer was aimed at another question entirely: Whether it is morally acceptable to kill a hostile alien that has no ability or interest in communicating with you, despite the fact that this hostile may be the last of its species.
But yeah, if you want to go all the way to Cerberus type morality, than sure, it makes sense to take the Queen for experimentation.
The problem you will face then is more technical in nature: The site was about to be nuked from orbit per emergency contamination procedures,
unless you activated the purge yourself. There was no way to leave the queen there, and there was no way to take her cage with you on foot.
Well, my answer was aimed at another question entirely: Whether it is morally acceptable to kill a hostile alien that has no ability or interest in communicating with you, despite the fact that this hostile may be the last of its species.
But yeah, if you want to go all the way to Cerberus type morality, than sure, it makes sense to take the Queen for experimentation.
The problem you will face then is more technical in nature: The site was about to be nuked from orbit per emergency contamination procedures,
unless you activated the purge yourself. There was no way to leave the queen there, and there was no way to take her cage with you on foot.
Cerberus and the Peak 15 scientists had the right idea when it came to wanting to study the Rachni, after all no one knew that they were capable of communicating. However they were all beyond stupid when it came to containing them. I mean really? A species that is documented to have reverse engineered FTL drives and engaged in an interstellar war with the known galaxy, and you think that a futuristic dog kennel is enough to hold them? If anything I would have taken those idiots and fed them to the Rachni test subjects for being a waste of genetic material.
The whole scene with the Rachni Queen really stands at odds with the narrative then if the site was about to be blasted from orbit. "Shepard, about 500 megatons of a bad day are about to come crashing down on our heads here." "Hang on, I want to slowly investigate this cage first." 
But in the interest of the original question, if one had to kill the Rachni or let them go, and they had all proven to be "mindless" murder machines, then yeah I would kill her. It makes no sense to keep let her escape if she was nothing but rampaging monster.
Though to be fair, the moment the Queen starts speaking is the moment that we realize that the Rachni are not "mindless" murder machines.
You know, in going back through Mass Effect 1 and reading the lore, I've noticed something about Wrex that would make him a horrible leader for his people in relation to the other species. I'm talking about his deep seated victim mentality. Just look at this scene from Virmire:
Notice the words he used when Shepard talked him down? "We were tools of the Council once. And to thank us for wiping out the Rachni they neutered us all." Aside from the fact that the Genophage doesn't "neuter" the Krogan, is Wrex really that dense?
The Council didn't enact the Genophage as a way of thanking the Krogan for their service. They deployed it because the Krogan were being massive d-bags to the rest of the galaxy and had caused extinction level events on three separate Turian worlds. You know what the Council did do as thanks for the Krogan's sacrifices? According to the codex entry on the Rebellions we have this (Council contributions bolded):
"The causes of the Rebellions stemmed from concessions the Citadel Council made to the krogan in gratitude for their service in the Rachni Wars. The krogan were given the conquered rachni planets along with several pristine, habitable worlds. However, due to the harsh conditions of their homeworld Tuchanka, krogan birth rates were quite high in order to sustain their numbers. When they spread to other planets, their naturally swift breeding cycle and lack of sufficient predators resulted in the krogan spreading throughout the galaxy like a plague.
The Council became concerned as the krogan began to annex territory form other Citadle races. The krogan became more aggressive as the other races tried to protect their worlds, until the krogan attempted to settle the asari colony of Lusia. When told by the Council to leave, the krogan refused. Their representative, Overlord Kredak, stormed out of the Council chambers, daring them to take their worlds back. War broke out afterword."
So in addition to a statue on the Citadel, the Council gave the Krogan several planets to own, and then even looked the other way when they began to annex other species' planets, all of this taking place over the course of 300 years. The Council was more than lenient with the Krogan, offering them olive branches on numerous occasions, and yet Wrex ignores all that history in order to paint his people as the target of an unjust punishment.
This tells us one of two things, 1) Wrex is severely uneducated about galactic events and posses the same intellectual prowess as a person who still believes the Earth is flat, or 2) Wrex is specifically ignoring any mention of his species' wrongdoings so as to paint them as poor, blameless victims. Heck, the only reason why Shepard is able to get Wrex to back off on Virmire is by playing to his preconceived notions of Krogan exploitation: "These Krogan are slaves Wrex!"
Why does this make him a horrible candidate for a leader of the Krogan species? Because he absolutely refuses to accept any other viewpoint that could show the Krogan in a bad light. How is this going to work for negations with other species, like the Turians and Salarians? How can they possibly make any headway with a leader that will not compromise or concede points based on the short comings of his people? If a deliberation over an unclaimed planet should possibly bring up Krogan actions of the pre-Rebellions is Wrex just going to stick his fingers in his ears and go "lalalalala" and derail talks because he cannot possibly fathom that his people were in anyway responsible for the Rebellions and the deployment of the Genophage?
<snip>
You are taking this too literally. Wrex is being facetious calling the Council cowards because they needed the krogan to save the galaxy and then the Council cripples them. He's making a point that they are spineless and not real warriors. Instead of fighting the krogans honorably, the salarians used deception to trick and infect all krogan with a disease that would plague them indefinitely.
The krogan were expansionists and aggressive, but they were hardly the threat the rachni were. The Council failed to understand krogan culture, and again, goes back to uplifting a species they did not know enough about. No matter how you try to rationalize it, the genophage was wrong. The krogan were greedy, but what they received in return was far more terrible than any crime the krogan committed.
Wrex is certainly not perfect, but that's why he has Eve by his side to provide sense and direction. Wrex is a warrior and is effective at keeping the clans in line and bending to his will. Eve is much more the diplomat and orator who can temper their aggression and encourage the krogan to build a better future not consumed by war and tragedy.
Well there was always this version of Wrex. And it makes the decision in ME3 so much easier.
Well there was always this version of Wrex. And it makes the decision in ME3 so much easier.
Spoiler
Do you need a hug? I sense tension.
I like having Ashley fill him full of holes. The idiot put his weapon in my face. I return the favor and have him killed. Besides that, I like Wreav more than I like Wrex.
You know, in going back through Mass Effect 1 and reading the lore, I've noticed something about Wrex that would make him a horrible leader for his people in relation to the other species. I'm talking about his deep seated victim mentality. Just look at this scene from Virmire:
Notice the words he used when Shepard talked him down? "We were tools of the Council once. And to thank us for wiping out the Rachni they neutered us all." Aside from the fact that the Genophage doesn't "neuter" the Krogan, is Wrex really that dense?
The Council didn't enact the Genophage as a way of thanking the Krogan for their service. They deployed it because the Krogan were being massive d-bags to the rest of the galaxy and had caused extinction level events on three separate Turian worlds. You know what the Council did do as thanks for the Krogan's sacrifices? According to the codex entry on the Rebellions we have this (Council contributions bolded):
"The causes of the Rebellions stemmed from concessions the Citadel Council made to the krogan in gratitude for their service in the Rachni Wars. The krogan were given the conquered rachni planets along with several pristine, habitable worlds. However, due to the harsh conditions of their homeworld Tuchanka, krogan birth rates were quite high in order to sustain their numbers. When they spread to other planets, their naturally swift breeding cycle and lack of sufficient predators resulted in the krogan spreading throughout the galaxy like a plague.
The Council became concerned as the krogan began to annex territory form other Citadle races. The krogan became more aggressive as the other races tried to protect their worlds, until the krogan attempted to settle the asari colony of Lusia. When told by the Council to leave, the krogan refused. Their representative, Overlord Kredak, stormed out of the Council chambers, daring them to take their worlds back. War broke out afterword."
So in addition to a statue on the Citadel, the Council gave the Krogan several planets to own, and then even looked the other way when they began to annex other species' planets, all of this taking place over the course of 300 years. The Council was more than lenient with the Krogan, offering them olive branches on numerous occasions, and yet Wrex ignores all that history in order to paint his people as the target of an unjust punishment.
This tells us one of two things, 1) Wrex is severely uneducated about galactic events and posses the same intellectual prowess as a person who still believes the Earth is flat, or 2) Wrex is specifically ignoring any mention of his species' wrongdoings so as to paint them as poor, blameless victims. Heck, the only reason why Shepard is able to get Wrex to back off on Virmire is by playing to his preconceived notions of Krogan exploitation: "These Krogan are slaves Wrex!"
Why does this make him a horrible candidate for a leader of the Krogan species? Because he absolutely refuses to accept any other viewpoint that could show the Krogan in a bad light. How is this going to work for negations with other species, like the Turians and Salarians? How can they possibly make any headway with a leader that will not compromise or concede points based on the short comings of his people? If a deliberation over an unclaimed planet should possibly bring up Krogan actions of the pre-Rebellions is Wrex just going to stick his fingers in his ears and go "lalalalala" and derail talks because he cannot possibly fathom that his people were in anyway responsible for the Rebellions and the deployment of the Genophage?
So, in your opinion, a good leadership candidate is one who wants to see his people shown in a bad light and who doesn't want to stand up for them even after they've endured 1,000 years of non-voluntary population control? I think you're being a little harsh on Wrex based on this single conversation... and to top it all off, you're insulting his intelligence based really on a rather narrow definition of the verb "neuter." Per Merriam-Webster, neuter also means "to make (something) much less powerful or effective." That the intent of the genophage was indeed to make the krogan less powerful can hardly be questioned. The bottom line is that Wrex IS listening to Shep's argument (not stubbornly sticking to his own point of view); and as a result, he backs down.
It could also be argued that in using the term "us all," Wrex is not only referring to the Krogan but all non-council races... considering that the various non-council races introduced in ME1 all seemed to feel, in some way, disenfranchised by the council races. "We were tools for the council once" in this context could mean that Wrex is very much accepting responsibility on behalf of the Krogan for putting the council into a position where they could dominate over all the "lesser species" (per Avina) in the galaxy for more than 1,000 years.
I like having Ashley fill him full of holes. The idiot put his weapon in my face. I return the favor and have him killed. Besides that, I like Wreav more than I like Wrex.
Put yourself in his shoes. His entire people are suffering and dying. The answer to all of his problems has just been found, and some punk human wants to take all of that away. Would you just go quietly without trying to save your people from extinction?
Put yourself in his shoes.
That would be hard to do since he doesn't wear shoes and even if he did, they would be too big for my feet. hahaha
His entire people are suffering and dying. The answer to all of his problems has just been found, and some punk human wants to take all of that away. Would you just go quietly without trying to save your people from extinction?
I wouldn't pull out my weapon at Shepard knowing that it wouldn't do anything. Even if I was able to shoot Shepard, the salarians and Ashley would gun me down within seconds. And even if I was able to convince Shepard to save the cure, the salarians would not let that happen.
Oh that? Those were from "what did you do in the Mass Effect Trilogy Today". We were doing our little screenshots and rewrites of the plot. My Shepard was a real ***** from hell, and dumb. Plus I prefer my Shepards do their own dirty work. She thought Asari needed other species to reproduce. She was also aware of all the plot points in ME2 and ME3. So.... we had some fun. I don't take role playing in games seriously.
The other thing about the Krogan: in 4000 years since they blew up Tuchanka, they have not rebuilt. There are over 3 billion Krogan living on the world and they have not rebuilt. They would prefer to work on weapons of mass destruction rather than restoring their civilization.
You are taking this too literally. Wrex is being facetious calling the Council cowards because they needed the krogan to save the galaxy and then the Council cripples them. He's making a point that they are spineless and not real warriors. Instead of fighting the krogans honorably, the salarians used deception to trick and infect all krogan with a disease that would plague them indefinitely.
The krogan were expansionists and aggressive, but they were hardly the threat the rachni were. The Council failed to understand krogan culture, and again, goes back to uplifting a species they did not know enough about. No matter how you try to rationalize it, the genophage was wrong. The krogan were greedy, but what they received in return was far more terrible than any crime the krogan committed.
Wrex is certainly not perfect, but that's why he has Eve by his side to provide sense and direction. Wrex is a warrior and is effective at keeping the clans in line and bending to his will. Eve is much more the diplomat and orator who can temper their aggression and encourage the krogan to build a better future not consumed by war and tragedy.
Really? Hardly the threat of the rachni?
Well the problem with the Krogan was that the train had already left the station. They'd already been uplifted, and once that was done, you can't un-uplift them. As a reward for their services in the Rachni war they were given Garvug which they promptly overpopulated, and from which they expanded taking one world after another.
During the Krogan Rebellions this expansionist race made several garden worlds uninhabitable by launching asteroids at them. Once they were on a roll, they had won every single battle except on Cyone. The mighty Turians made their last stand on Menae before unleashing the genophage.
So when a space faring race is launching asteroids at your worlds, how do you respond with honor? Ask the souls of the dead if honor matters. Their silence is your answer.
You're not equipped to fight a ground war against the Krogan. You have one choice available: nuke them back to the stone age. That shouldn't be that hard. Nuke the hell out of Garvug and Tuchanka from orbit and let the radioactive fallout take care of things. Sure it's a war crime, but you saved the galaxy from the Krogan horde. Or was the genophage a better choice. At least their species continues.
^DA:O was pretty much the reverse scenario. I think DA:I pretty much confirmed the (overall) irrelevance of the Dark Ritual.
That has yet to be proven. The series is not over and Kieran and the Old God Soul may both play roles we know nothing about yet. Wrex in ME is a good example of a similar situation. I'm sure there were plenty of people that said that Wrex's fate in ME1 had no impact on ME2 but it was not until ME3 that his full role in the story came to fruition.
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