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Moral Dilemmas: Yea or Nay?


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#276
Il Divo

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^Confirmed is probably overly strong a word to use. And Wrex and the Genophage were probably the best examples of the ME import system working. But I'd also go so far as to say it was pretty much the sole exception in the entire series. 

 

It's certainly possible Bioware has an ace up their sleeve and something extremely interesting could happen via the import/Dark Ritual. I suspect though we're more likely going down the route of the Collector Base or saving/killing the Council, amongst others, simply given the difficulties it presents. 



#277
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I quite liked the N7 javelin missile mission in ME2, where you could either save the spaceport(preserving the viability of the colony) or the civilians.

I'd be all for there to be a smattering of these sort of choces.

I didn't.  IMO, it was very poorly done.  Rather than a moral dilemma, it fell more like a forced rash decision (due to the time clock) and a test to see if the player was paying enough attention to actually activate the button they were intending to activate.  There wasn't even really any sort of depiction of the consequences, just a screen going blank.

 

This situation somewhat repeated in the Arrival DLC.  In that case, the scenario was set up much better... except that the player wasn't given any option as to how Shepard would solve the dilemma.  The game basically had to force the solution onto the player since not activating the project and allowing the reapers to come through the relay would have basically broken the game.  Classic case of the developers writing themselves into their own box.



#278
Vortex13

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You are taking this too literally. Wrex is being facetious calling the Council cowards because they needed the krogan to save the galaxy and then the Council cripples them. He's making a point that they are spineless and not real warriors. Instead of fighting the krogans honorably, the salarians used deception to trick and infect all krogan with a disease that would plague them indefinitely.

 

The krogan were expansionists and aggressive, but they were hardly the threat the rachni were. The Council failed to understand krogan culture, and again, goes back to uplifting a species they did not know enough about. No matter how you try to rationalize it, the genophage was wrong. The krogan were greedy, but what they received in return was far more terrible than any crime the krogan committed.

 

Wrex is certainly not perfect, but that's why he has Eve by his side to provide sense and direction. Wrex is a warrior and is effective at keeping the clans in line and bending to his will. Eve is much more the diplomat and orator who can temper their aggression and encourage the krogan to build a better future not consumed by war and tragedy.

 
You keep mentioning how the Council  species, the Salarians especially, are cowards, or without honor, but how do either of those factor into war and espionage? How do these descriptors apply to a people who are fighting for their very survival? Would you consider a scientist created vaccine for a plague to be "cowardly", that real warriors would try and deal with the sickness on their own?
 
As sH0tgUn JUiA says, where was the 'honor' of the Krogan when they dropped asteroids on three Turian worlds? How many Turian children did they kill? How many plant and animal species did they cause to go extinct on those worlds? Real 'noble warriors' those Krogan.
 
And contrary to popular opinion, the Council did show honor towards the Krogan in the centuries leading up to the Rebellions. They looked the other way when the Krogan annexed other species' worlds, and then when they took the Asari colony of Lusia the Council chose to talk the Krogan down, rather than immediately resort to conflict like they did when the Batarians did something similar.  They showed the Krogan the up most respect, and what to the Krogan do? They (essentially) flip the Council the bird and then physically assault the other Council members (as per the Citadel DLC). 
 
tumblr_nu4e2dkKJs1tx94zko1_500.jpg
 
If we are going to be talking about 'honor' then the Krogan threw theirs out first.
 

The other thing about the Krogan: in 4000 years since they blew up Tuchanka, they have not rebuilt. There are over 3 billion Krogan living on the world and they have not rebuilt. They would prefer to work on weapons of mass destruction rather than restoring their civilization. 

 

This as well. Tuchanka has been a radioactive garbage pile for longer than the Rachni Wars, and the Krogan have made zero attempts to rebuild or clean up their planet. Indeed, the whole part of hope with little spots of green shown during ME 3 wasn't because of anything the Krogan had done, it was all thanks to the Salarians and the Shroud.  


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#279
Vortex13

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So, in your opinion, a good leadership candidate is one who wants to see his people shown in a bad light and who doesn't want to stand up for them even after they've endured 1,000 years of non-voluntary population control?  I think you're being a little harsh on Wrex based on this single conversation... and to top it all off, you're insulting his intelligence based really on a rather narrow definition of the verb "neuter."  Per Merriam-Webster, neuter also means "to make (something) much less powerful or effective."   That the intent of the genophage was indeed to make the krogan less powerful can hardly be questioned. The bottom line is that Wrex IS listening to Shep's argument (not stubbornly sticking to his own point of view); and as a result, he backs down.

 

It could also be argued that in using the term "us all," Wrex is not only referring to the Krogan but all non-council races... considering that the various non-council races introduced in ME1 all seemed to feel, in some way, disenfranchised by the council races.  "We were tools for the council once" in this context could mean that Wrex is very much accepting responsibility on behalf of the Krogan for putting the council into a position where they could dominate over all the "lesser speciesr" (per Avina) in the galaxy for more than 1,000 years.

 

I never said that a good leader will look down on his people. A good leader will, however, recognize the faults of his people and actions they did in the past. A good, mature leader will own up to his people's mistakes and rise above them. Wrex doesn't. He won't recognize the fact that the Genophage was necessary (harsh, but necessary) because of how his species was destroying everything in sight. If he can't admit to a fault there, how can he possibly try to guide his people around that mistake and learn from it?

 

Wrex is not stupid, you are correct, but he is blindly stubborn at even trying to see things from the other side's point of view when it concerns the Krogan. 



#280
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I never said that a good leader will look down on his people. A good leader will, however, recognize the faults of his people and actions they did in the past. A good, mature leader will own up to his people's mistakes and rise above them. Wrex doesn't. He won't recognize the fact that the Genophage was necessary (harsh, but necessary) because of how his species was destroying everything in sight. If he can't admit to a fault there, how can he possibly try to guide his people around that mistake and learn from it?

 

Wrex is not stupid, you are correct, but he is blindly stubborn at even trying to see things from the other side's point of view when it concerns the Krogan. 

 

Which Wrex? Because ME1 and ME2 Wrex is really different from ME3 Wrex. 



#281
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Which Wrex? Because ME1 and ME2 Wrex is really different from ME3 Wrex. 

 

 

Correct me if I am wrong, but where in ME 3 does Wrex show that he is willing to see the other side's point of view, or admit to past Krogan wrongdoing?



#282
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I never said that a good leader will look down on his people. A good leader will, however, recognize the faults of his people and actions they did in the past. A good, mature leader will own up to his people's mistakes and rise above them. Wrex doesn't. He won't recognize the fact that the Genophage was necessary (harsh, but necessary) because of how his species was destroying everything in sight. If he can't admit to a fault there, how can he possibly try to guide his people around that mistake and learn from it?

 

Wrex is not stupid, you are correct, but he is blindly stubborn at even trying to see things from the other side's point of view when it concerns the Krogan. 

 

Ah... but you did imply it:  "Because he absolutely refuses to accept any other viewpoint that could show the Krogan in a bad light."  Now, is Wrex really guilty of not accepting ANY viewpoint that puts Krogan in a "questionable" light... of being, as you put it "blindly stubborn?".  The guy openly admitted to killing his own father for wanting to continue making war on the galaxy and openly says to Shepard that he's given up on the Krogan because, at that time, he believed they were basically beyond help.  Since he himself then paints the Krogan in a bad light to Shepard, I find it difficult to accuse him of "absolutely refusing to accept any other viewpoint that chould show the Krogan in a bad light."

 

In ME2, when he is portrayed as a leader (essentially after being convinced by Shepard to go back to try to help them), he's accused by several of his people and even a Salarian as being "too soft" and he's admittedly working with the female clan leader to get the Krogan clans to work together while still preserving the uniqueness of each clan. "It was Clan Leader Uta's idea."  So, between ME1 and ME2, there are several indications that Wrex is quite willing to compromise on his original viewpoint and accept the viewpoints/encouragements of others once he's come to respect them. 

 

In ME3, he again readily falls in with Eve's plan to use Kalross to stop the Reaper... and furthermore, he readily gives her the credit for it.  Yes, he stubbornly stands up to Uvenk and Wreav... but then if one is going to lead a strong, warlike people like the Krogan effectively towards peaceful solutions... one does have to stand up for themselves every now and then.  Leaders who don't ever actually believe in what they're doing  don't really make good leaders either.



#283
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Correct me if I am wrong, but where in ME 3 does Wrex show that he is willing to see the other side's point of view, or admit to past Krogan wrongdoing?

 

In ME1, Wrex sees his people as a lost cause. He doesn't think that the genocide is actually fatal to them; he's of the view that it's their nature that brought them down, and nothing can change that because he tried and failed.

 

In ME2, Wrex is suddenly a leader again, and embraces his vision for a new future for the krogan - one where they overcome the genophage by doing what they should have done in the first place: build a society, as best as possible, and work to overcome their bloodlust. He's not perfect, and not a moral paragon, but he seems to accept the genophage and believe he can build a new future for his people.

 

In ME3, he's obsessed with curing it, and basically turning the krogans back into what they were. But his whole point before was that the krogans - albeit victims - were leading themselves to extinction because of who they were, and that to save themselves they needed to change. This just screws with the whole moral arc. 


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#284
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In ME1, Wrex sees his people as a lost cause. He doesn't think that the genocide is actually fatal to them; he's of the view that it's their nature that brought them down, and nothing can change that because he tried and failed.

 

In ME2, Wrex is suddenly a leader again, and embraces his vision for a new future for the krogan - one where they overcome the genophage by doing what they should have done in the first place: build a society, as best as possible, and work to overcome their bloodlust. He's not perfect, and not a moral paragon, but he seems to accept the genophage and believe he can build a new future for his people.

 

In ME3, he's obsessed with curing it, and basically turning the krogans back into what they were. But his whole point before was that the krogans - albeit victims - were leading themselves to extinction because of who they were, and that to save themselves they needed to change. This just screws with the whole moral arc. 

 

 

Ah, I see. I agree that ME 3 Wrex was pulling a 180 on his stance about the Genophage and the Krogan and that it completely throws his arc off kilter.

 

Truth be told, I like ME 2 Wrex the best; he's working with the Krogan to create a society that seeks to change how the Krogan operate, plus he promises Shepard full support the moment the Reapers arrive. Flash forward to ME 3, and in addition to suddenly wanting to make the Krogan just like they were (as you said), but he's also refusing support unless his demands are met. 


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#285
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Ah... but you did imply it:  "Because he absolutely refuses to accept any other viewpoint that could show the Krogan in a bad light."  Now, is Wrex really guilty of not accepting ANY viewpoint that puts Krogan in a "questionable" light... of being, as you put it "blindly stubborn?".  The guy openly admitted to killing his own father for wanting to continue making war on the galaxy and openly says to Shepard that he's given up on the Krogan because, at that time, he believed they were basically beyond help.  Since he himself then paints the Krogan in a bad light to Shepard, I find it difficult to accuse him of "absolutely refusing to accept any other viewpoint that chould show the Krogan in a bad light."

 

In ME2, when he is portrayed as a leader (essentially after being convinced by Shepard to go back to try to help them), he's accused by several of his people and even a Salarian as being "too soft" and he's admittedly working with the female clan leader to get the Krogan clans to work together while still preserving the uniqueness of each clan. "It was Clan Leader Uta's idea."  So, between ME1 and ME2, there are several indications that Wrex is quite willing to compromise on his original viewpoint and accept the viewpoints/encouragements of others once he's come to respect them. 

 

In ME3, he again readily falls in with Eve's plan to use Kalross to stop the Reaper... and furthermore, he readily gives her the credit for it.  Yes, he stubbornly stands up to Uvenk and Wreav... but then if one is going to lead a strong, warlike people like the Krogan effectively towards peaceful solutions... one does have to stand up for themselves every now and then.  Leaders who don't ever actually believe in what they're doing  don't really make good leaders either.

 

 

All of those examples are Wrex disagreeing with other Krogan or using other Krogan's ideas though.

 

Yeah in ME 1, he's disenfranchised with his species, but Wrex's whole stance on the fight with his father and his view of the Krogan overall was just that they were too set in the old ways to want to work together. He never once brings up how his people's actions lead to the deployment of the Genophage, its just that he can't get them to focus on breeding. You will never see Wrex even trying to see the side of a non-Krogan when it concerns his species.

 

In ME 3, when Primarch Victus comes to him for aid against the Reapers Wrex doesn't consider the how the Turians are in desperate need of help in defending their world from an actual Reaper invasion vs. just forward scouts on Tuchanka. His first words to Victus are: "What do I care if a few Turians go extinct?" And yet, his whole argument for wanting the Genophage cure is: "My people are going extinct."

 

 

EDIT:

 

It's funny that the Rachni Queen will freely admit to past harm done by her species, for actions that they weren't even in control of, but Wrex wont even consent to a differing opinion about his people.



#286
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All of those examples are Wrex disagreeing with other Krogan or using other Krogan's ideas though.

 

Yeah in ME 1, he's disenfranchised with his species, but Wrex's whole stance on the fight with his father and his view of the Krogan overall was just that they were too set in the old ways to want to work together. He never once brings up how his people's actions lead to the deployment of the Genophage, its just that he can't get them to focus on breeding. You will never see Wrex even trying to see the side of a non-Krogan when it concerns his species.

 

In ME 3, when Primarch Victus comes to him for aid against the Reapers Wrex doesn't consider the how the Turians are in desperate need of help in defending their world from an actual Reaper invasion vs. just forward scouts on Tuchanka. His first words to Victus are: "What do I care if a few Turians go extinct?" And yet, his whole argument for wanting the Genophage cure is: "My people are going extinct."

 

 

EDIT:

 

It's funny that the Rachni Queen will freely admit to past harm done by her species, for actions that they weren't even in control of, but Wrex wont even consent to a differing opinion about his people.

 

So, again you're implying that it's somehow "wrong" for a leader to show support his people when trying to negotiate with other nations - "wrong" to represent the views of his people.  When he says to the Turian in the War Room  "I won't tell you what I want, I'll tell you what I need," he's basically saying "I won't be able to get my people to follow me to fight for Palaven if you can't at least do this.  If you can't show that you care whether or not my people go extinct, why should my people care if 'a few Turians' die."  He's not even close to hinting that he wouldn't care if the Turian race went extinct.

 

Considering that his leadership is unpopular with various factions of Krogan, I think he's just honestly laying it on the line.  He knows that, as the Mechanic put it on Tuchanka in ME2, if he can't keep the support of his people, he's as good as dead and they replace him with the guy who "has the next best plan."

 

When the Rachni Queen "freely admits" to past harms done by her species she's not acting as a political representative of her species whose "subjects" would probably eat her if they felt she wasn't negotiating in their best interests nor was she being asked to convince her subjects to all lay their lives on the line to save an old enemy.



#287
sH0tgUn jUliA

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In ME1, Wrex sees his people as a lost cause. He doesn't think that the genocide is actually fatal to them; he's of the view that it's their nature that brought them down, and nothing can change that because he tried and failed.

 

In ME2, Wrex is suddenly a leader again, and embraces his vision for a new future for the krogan - one where they overcome the genophage by doing what they should have done in the first place: build a society, as best as possible, and work to overcome their bloodlust. He's not perfect, and not a moral paragon, but he seems to accept the genophage and believe he can build a new future for his people.

 

In ME3, he's obsessed with curing it, and basically turning the krogans back into what they were. But his whole point before was that the krogans - albeit victims - were leading themselves to extinction because of who they were, and that to save themselves they needed to change. This just screws with the whole moral arc. 

 

This is what is fascinating. The Krogan are portrayed as victims of the genophage which they brought upon themselves by attacking the galactic community. You were brought face to face with it during Mordin's loyalty mission on Tuchanka. You met the Krogan. They would burn their entire world down again - the Shaman said proudly, because the harshness of the environment on Tuchanka is what now keeps the Krogan strong. Then in ME3 Wrex wants the cure for the genophage if the Krogan are going to enter the fight against the reapers, even though he knows that all is lost anyway if he doesn't. 67% of people cure the genophage even though the end result is over 16 trillion in 300 years.

 

Now, we turn to the Quarians who created a race of synthetics that nearly wiped them out and took over every world they inhabited, and forced them to live in a deteriorating fleet of ships. The quarians are forbidden by treaty with the Council from taking any action in the Perseus Veil for fear of antagonizing the Geth. But when they finally have the means to take back their home world, they do so. The reapers have also invaded at the same time, which means that the Council won't bother them. They have not attacked any council world. But they're being seen as stupid pains in the ass.

 

You know the Krogan would need to expand, right? But there are only so many garden worlds. And they are occupied by other races. Eventually that means wars.

 

So the blackmailing of the galaxy by Wrex with a solution that will overpopulate all of the garden worlds with Krogan is fine. The Quarians trying to take back their home world so they could drop off their civilian population, and join the fight against the reapers was looked at as bad. My guess is that the latter involved a synthetic race that they created. But it was still home to the Quarians. 

 

Now there is another way of looking at the Quarians' action that was never considered. They did the galaxy a favor. Do you really think that the Reapers would have allowed the Geth free will? Do you really think that the Reapers wouldn't have hacked the Geth servers and gained a huge synthetic army for themselves? Maybe by the time the Quarians got into the Tikkun System they finally did? Sure, Legion tells us the single reaper ship made the offer and that the Geth refused it until "the Creators attacked." But this is where there's a huge plot hole - I'm looking at you Patrick Weekes. The reapers never make an offer you can refuse. That was done strictly to manipulate the player into this artificial moral dilemma. And the player chooses to accept that Legion is telling the truth that only after the Quarians attacked that the Geth accepted the offer of the "Old Machines". Legion later, if the player chooses the renegade dialogue, admits to lying over and over again. But most players mindlessly hit upper right dialogue all the time because Bioware games reward upper right choices. 

 

Perhaps what you're doing is shutting down the reaper controlled geth so that you can finally get to the reaper, kill it, so that Legion can finally do what it wanted to do the entire time: create its own race of true AI synthetics that were not Geth at all - they only looked like Geth. You allowed Legion to completely reprogram them. You have to remember that the Geth are software. Legion completely overwrote their programming - no more runtimes. Now a completely new AI program in each Geth platform. The Pinocchio Program. These are no longer Geth. 

 

This is worse than rewriting the Heretics and changing their opinions on the reapers. This is fundamentally changing what the Geth are. The Geth were a networked intelligence. Legion is killing that. By allowing Legion to upload the code you also destroyed what the Geth were. So is letting the Quarians finish off the Geth any different? No. 


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#288
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Good point - reaper upgraded geth are no longer geth.
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#289
Cyberstrike nTo

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What does BioWare treating its fans as intelligent individuals have to do with being politically correct? To the contrary, I think BioWare's political correctness has gone to an extreme and actually undermined their games, but that's a discussion for another thread.

 

Political correctness is like UFOs in that there a very few cases that MIGHT have some legitimacy (and that is being extremely generous) to them but most of it is complete and total bull crap to give bad comedians, bigots, and bullies a shield to hide behind because they can't stand up to being called out for being bad comedians, bigots, and bullies.  

 

But please enlighten me how BioWare's so-called "extreme political correctness" has undermined their games. Because IMHO their "extreme PC" has made their games better from my view.

 

Also tell me what political correctness is because that I would love to know. 



#290
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Good point - reaper upgraded geth are no longer geth.

 

Exactly my point. The geth are dead regardless of which choice you make.

 

This was something that was overlooked by the players. And by the writers. Legion and the Geth VI's logic regarding the reaper code solution was flawed. It was not preserving their race at all. Legion contained the reaper code already and wanted to make the others like him - note how he was able to display the code in the war room. Legion was not the same one we met in ME2. In ME2 he was more cold logic. In ME3 he appealed more to the emotions of the player. The writers manipulated the players into making an emotional decision. If you choose the Quarians, the writers use Tali, who killed Legion, to try to make you feel guilty. 

 

Back in 2012, those who chose the Quarians were called monsters on this forum.


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#291
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Well, the quarians really are genocidal maniacs. Doesn't make them wrong, though.
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#292
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Well, the quarians really are genocidal maniacs. Doesn't make them wrong, though.

Exactly right. To conclude otherwise would require a blanket condemnation of genocide.

Tell that that to smallpox.

#293
Medhia_Nox

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@AlanC9:  Toasters don't have "genes" - so there cannot be any such thing as genocide of the Geth. 


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#294
Isaidlunch

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I wouldn't mind similar moral dilemmas to what we got in ME3, the way that the Krogan and Geth dilemmas were portrayed were very realistic as many people gave in to the "good" choice instead of doing what was actually right. It's upsetting to see people fall to emotional reasoning like Mordin's inability to deal with his guilt, or falling victim to the cold, calculating manipulations of the Geth that trick Shepard by whitewashing their actions, but similar things happen all the time in our daily lives. It makes it all the more satisfying when we refuse to give in, and instead make rational decisions for the greater good. False praise given to us by fictional characters may be rewarding, but it is no substitute for the satisfaction we get from rising above such tactics.



#295
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@AlanC9:  Toasters don't have "genes" - so there cannot be any such thing as genocide of the Geth. 

 

Is this a joke? That's not how genocide is defined. If not, the "right stuff" theory of self-awareness is stupid. 


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#296
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All this drama about the Genophage is moot because how do you reverse centuries of genetic modification in a few seconds?

 

The Genophage and the Geth-Quarian war did not need any resolutions in the 3rd game.



#297
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All this drama about the Genophage is moot because how do you reverse centuries of genetic modification in a few seconds?

 

The Genophage and the Geth-Quarian war did not need any resolutions in the 3rd game.

They did for the simple fact that they were poorly executed moral dilemmas BioWare wanted to wrap up because they knew they wouldn't be returning to those stories in a future game. The truth of the matter is ME3 just had to cover way too much material in a short amount of time. It's the reason many aspects of the game felt rushed because of so much story needing to be covered. It's also why many accuse the game of "auto-dialogue" due to BioWare trying to move the plot forward at a reasonable speed.


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#298
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The player should be presented with some tough choices, whether they're tactical, moral, ect. I'd love it if Andromeda lived up to the ad slogan used in that teaser for the original Mass Effect.

 

That said, Bioware would need to be careful with the consequences for those decisions. The player character shouldn't be making decisions that can result in entire species or factions disappear from the game universe. Instead they should be written in a way that is similar to the Orzammar story arc in Dragon Age: Origins. Player choice has a massive impact on the future of the dwarven city-state, but neither choice results in dwarves going extinct. All choice & consequence should be written with the possibility of a sequel in mind, and you can't adequately carry over player choices if one choice deletes whole factions from the game universe, and another doesn't.

 

Yeah... The whole kill X companion, Wipe out Y race is what really bogged down ME's choices in the Grand scheme of things... since Several of the choices should by all accounts DRASTICALLY change the game and how Shepard is viewed by others.

 

What you got was alot of plot railroading, less then stellar character substitutes  and This weird Shepard can do no wrong


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#299
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Is this a joke? That's not how genocide is defined. If not, the "right stuff" theory of self-awareness is stupid. 

You're right, it's a legal definition that only applies to people in both our and the ME universe. Toasters aren't people in either. Your moral outrage that the term insufficiently defines your blender is irrelevant. There's no such thing as genocide of the geth. At best it's a commercial recall in line with both Council (inculding human) and Quarian law.

Frankly, any Shep attempting to bring a bunch of revolting, highly dangerous, previously Reaper controlled illegal AI's back to the rest of the galaxy after Hackett gave specific orders to get the quarians on board should have been thrown in the loony bin, especially if they had just murdered 17 million actual people (they do have basic rights in Council space despite some discrimination) in order to get them. Shouldn't have been a moral dilemma at all for any sane individual, but biower was running out of time on its toasters are people too narrative and just threw a couple of stupid choices in without sufficient in universe buildup.



#300
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You're right, it's a legal definition that only applies to people in both our and the ME universe. Toasters aren't people in either. Your moral outrage that the term insufficiently defines your blender is irrelevant. There's no such thing as genocide of the geth. At best it's a commercial recall in line with both Council (inculding human) and Quarian law.

Frankly, any Shep attempting to bring a bunch of revolting, highly dangerous, previously Reaper controlled illegal AI's back to the rest of the galaxy after Hackett gave specific orders to get the quarians on board should have been thrown in the loony bin, especially if they had just murdered 17 million actual people (they do have basic rights in Council space despite some discrimination) in order to get them. Shouldn't have been a moral dilemma at all for any sane individual, but biower was running out of time on its toasters are people too narrative and just threw a couple of stupid choices in without sufficient in universe buildup.

Ah, I see, embarrassingly ignorant or probable troll it is then. Well, let it not be said that I didn't try to have an actual discussion on the subject.
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