There's also the fact that Balak DOES kill again if Shepard lets him go. Balak was the one behind the Alliance cruiser crashing, and the mix-up of medicines leading to the deaths of Alliance soldiers in ME 3.
Now sure, if the player did kill Balak in Bring Down the Sky, ME 3 still has 'Not' Balak commit those actions...
I was unaware of that.
Shepard let's him go! It doesn't matter that he believes he can catch him later, that's just bravado on Shepard's part. You have tried to downplay my choice of stopping him then and there by acting as if it was always a fact that Balak would be caught or no longer a threat and pointing to ME3 as proof. However all it proves is that Balak ultimately did fail to get another plan off the ground before the reapers hit. But it is ultimately irrelevant in ME1 unless you're meta-gaming.
And it's funny that you failed to notice that ME3 shows that Shepard never did catch him. Instead he found Shepard.
Okay, so the dilemma that really works for you is not BDTS, but the second meeting of Balak. Funny you failed to notice that all I've said about it was they they presented Balak as an essentially powerless figure. Indeed, you now do have some evidence that he's been using Batarian codes to sabotage terminals on the Citadel and a better dilemma exists... Do you let him go to gain the Batarian fleet (small as it is) or do you shoot him? You can't solve for both in this case because you have no reason to believe that you can both shoot him (or even just capture him) and still gain the fleet. It would be a tougher (and a better presented) dilemma if the Batarian fleet were larger so that its presence or absence against the reapers would have more of a difference.
So, again without arguing which decisions are right or wrong here - I would argue that the Batarian Codes dilemma works better than BDTS... and your original premise WAS that BDTS was the only moral dilemma presented in the game that really worked for you. In BDTS, it doesn't matter whether Shepard's confidence in himself is well placed or misplaced... the dilemma is presented as his dilemma (as they all are since the player's POV is that of Shepard throughout all the games). The moment Shepard is given the opportunity to believe he could do both at the same time, the dilemma for him (from his POV) just doesn't exist. If the writers had of made it abundantly clear that the only two options available to Shep were to absolutely let Balak go or sacrifice the hostages to catch him, then we'd have a "working" dilemma - regardless of how different people chose to solve it.
There's also the fact that Balak DOES kill again if Shepard lets him go. Balak was the one behind the Alliance cruiser crashing, and the mix-up of medicines leading to the deaths of Alliance soldiers in ME 3.
Now sure, if the player did kill Balak in Bring Down the Sky, ME 3 still has 'Not' Balak commit those actions...
I still don't see how one could use this as a "justification" for choosing to kill Balak in BdtS. IMO, a moral dilemma cannot be resolved by just counting the number of lives lost in the long run, especially if you assume that Shepad cannot foresee the future. I made a very similar argument just recently in the Shiala thread.
IMO, the main imperative is to make sure that Balak doesn't get a chance to kill any more here and now. My Shepard would of course still report what happened and would hope that Balak gets hunted down and arrested/killed by others before he can commit another act of terrorism. The fact that this is not the case is sad but it doesn't invalidate the decision to help the hostages on X47.
Okay, so the dilemma that really works for you is not BDTS, but the second meeting of Balak. Funny you failed to notice that all I've said about it was they they presented Balak as an essentially powerless figure. Indeed, you now do have some evidence that he's been using Batarian codes to sabotage terminals on the Citadel and a better dilemma exists... Do you let him go to again the Batarian fleet (small as it is) or do you shoot him? You can't solve for both in this case because you have no reason to believe that you can both shoot him and still gain the fleet. It would be a tougher (and a better presented) dilemma if the Batarian fleet were larger. So, again without arguing which decisions are right or wrong here - I would argue that the Batarian Codes dilemma works better than BDTS... and your original premise that BDTS was the only moral dilemma presented in the game that really worked for you.
No, that's not what I'm saying at all. I see their second meeting as it's own thing and certainly not much of a dilemma given that all he has to offer Shepard is an insignificant force that is made up of what is left of the batarian hegemony.
If you see it from that perspective it's not pointless and consuming fiction in this way is not just a fun waste of time but an opportunity for reflection and discussion.
The lack of space fascists though is disheartening and makes me reluctant to engage in meaningful conversation about it when I am not in the mood to.
I mean Zeon are my favorite faction and have been since I was kid for a reason o...o
I still don't see how one could use this as a "justification" for choosing to kill Balak in BdtS. IMO, a moral dilemma cannot be resolved by just counting the number of lives lost in the long run, especially if you assume that Shepad cannot foresee the future. I made a very similar argument just recently in the Shiala thread.
IMO, the main imperative is to make sure that Balak doesn't get a chance to kill any more here and now. My Shepard would of course still report what happened and would hope that Balak gets hunted down and arrested/killed by others before he can commit another act of terrorism. The fact that this is not the case is sad but it doesn't invalidate the decision to help the hostages on X47.
Well truth be told, I'm generally indifferent to the decision. 
It's true that Shepard can't know what will happen in the future, I'm just pointing out that killing him there on the asteroid does stop him from killing anyone again.
Though I do agree with UpUpAway95 in that the decision on what to do with Balak in ME 3 is a bit more of a dilemma. Do you let a known murder and terrorist go hoping that his experience will help the allied fleets, or do you kill him and lose that last remnant of the Batarian navy?
The lack of space fascists though is disheartening and makes me reluctant to engage in meaningful conversation about it when I am not in the mood to.
I think the galaxy deserves a better class of fascist. Cerberus is too stupid to effectively institute human dominance.
I think the galaxy deserves a better class of fascist. Cerberus is too stupid to effectively institute human dominance.
Sieg Zeon?
The what if scenario: If Zeon had won the One Year War.
Forced peace on Earth, mass migration to space, unconditional control of the planet and its resources, Zeon is the highest authority in the newly formed Zeonic provinces of Earth. I mean ultimately though? Look at the video, after the war its peacefully because Zeon has for the first time in history created a weapon that can effectively silence the suicidal impulse of humanity to war against itself, because this weapon threatens the preservation of Earth itself, a massive laser housed within a hollowed out colony capable of wiping away countries in its piercing light.
Zeon parked it in orbit after they won as a sort of encouragement for the Federation to surrender.
Gihren Zabi: Supreme Commander of the military forces of Zeon is named Sovereign of Side Three and is basically the defacto dictator of all of humanity given he's the highest authority in either the colonies or Earth now, he's basically the Emperor of Mankind o.o
Sieg Zeon?
Only a fictional and stupid government like the Alliance would let a disaster, which resulted in a substantial decrease in power of it's rival, go to complete waste.
No, that's not what I'm saying at all. I see their second meeting as it's own thing and certainly not much of a dilemma given that all he has to offer Shepard is an insignificant force that is made up of what is left of the batarian hegemony.
I did say it would be a tougher dilemma if the fleet were larger (sigh). In BDTS, the entire dilemma essentially disappears because Shepard is allowed (by the writers) to believe he could do both at the same time. That allows him to simply not have to really choose between one option or the other. It effectively let's him off the hook.
Dilemma: "a situation in which you have to make a difficult choice." http://www.merriam-w...tionary/dilemma
I did say it would be a tougher dilemma if the fleet were larger (sigh). In BDTS, the entire dilemma essentially disappears because Shepard is allowed (by the writers) to believe he could do both at the same time. That allows him to simply not have to really choose between one option or the other. It effectively let's him off the hook.
Dilemma: "a situation in which you have to make a difficult choice." http://www.merriam-w...tionary/dilemma
You're still hung up on this "I'll get you someday!" line from Shepard. Get over it.
Tuchanka is not completely uninhabitable... the Krogan were still living there.
All of this, however, doesn't change the different power dynamic of leadership being portrayed. Wrex rules because the Krogan allow him to rule... He needs to convince them of a reason to fight alongside their old enemies the Turians or they just won't join in on the fight and they'll remove him as leader. The Rachni Queen has the ability to rule absolutely and, additionally, to absolutely determine what her children believe in without allowing them any latitude to decide that for themselves. I entered this debate because the implication was the Wrex was not a "good leadership candidate" because, apparently, he chooses to represent the wishes of his people to the Turian Primarch during a moment when the Turian general is negotiating with him for his support as opposed to just throwing in with the Turian general regardless of how his people might feel about it. In reality, a democratic leader IS expected to represent the views of his people ahead of his own... or risk being replaced in power. If Wrex had of just instantly sided with the Primarch without trying to get a "good deal" for the Krogan in the process, that's when he'd be more of a traitor to his people instead of a "good leader" for them. Wrex is not at that table representing the Turians, Salarians, or Humans... he's there representing the Krogans. To expect him to just sell out the Krogans to the Turians without so much as even trying to cure the genophage is, IMO, just plain unrealistic. Regardless of whether or not YOU agree with the Krogan viewpoint or like them in the least, as their leader, Wrex has to represent that viewpoint whether even he fully agrees with it or not.
Tuchunka might be technically livable by the extreme standards of a species like the Krogan or Rachni, but it was in no way viable for a sizable population, nor was it ever going to make a recovery from the self imposed nuclear winter until the Salarians built the Shroud that is; but I digress.
Back to original discussion though, I agree that it was logical to assume that Wrex would push for the Genophage cure once he knew one existed; that I don't necessarily have a problem with. It's how he goes about it. Look at Primarch Victus, the Turian leader, once he knew that the Krogan wouldn't budge on the Genophage issue, and once he knew that a cure was easily available he was ready to assist in order to get things moving. He sides with Wrex in forcing the Dalatrass to release the females. He even sends badly needed troops from Palaven in order to help the Krogan with their goal, providing fighter support at the Shroud tower, plus sacrificing an entire cruiser's worth of soldiers to ensure that a Cerberus plot wouldn't destabilize the Krogan. Victus is making concessions and working with Wrex over the negotiations. You know what Wrex and the Krogan do for the Turians during that whole time that the galaxy is playing doctor? Nothing.
The Turians and even the Salarians (to an extent) are on board with seeing the cure through for the Krogan, and yet Wrex doesn't send a single platoon of Krogan help alleviate Palaven until after the Genophage cure is deployed. Nothing, not even a token fighting force as an olive branch and a sign of the two species working together. Wrex makes the rest of the galaxy, but the Turians in particular, wait before setting any boots on Palaven. How does this help? It's not like a battalion of warriors are going to make a difference to the population of a cured Krogan. The current population of Tuchunka is over 2 billion, even if the Palaven campaign would require half of that number (it doesn't), its not like their species would die out once the Genophage cure as deployed. Why then allow for the deaths of millions of beings a day, and the destruction of much needed infrastructure and the scarce few fleets remaining?
Being, incredibly generous here, let's assume that every day one million people die at the hands of the Reapers throughout the galaxy, let's also assume that the entire Genophage Arc takes place over the course of a single week. That's seven million people dead, and the loss of untold amounts of ships, supplies, and manufacturing power just because the Krogan refuse to send aid. What's more, once the Genophage has been deployed, and the galaxy lives up to Wrex's ultimatum against all advanced life in the Milky Way, he still has his people spend enough time back home to knock up a sizable portion of the Krogan females before he sends aid.
Even if one was a staunch Genophage cure supporter, that kind of response is really kinda sh***y.
And what kind of light does that place the Krogan in with the rest of the galaxy? Sure, they show up, eventually, but only after all the other species do exactly what they want. That their delay indirectly leads to the deaths of millions of people. Even with the massive chip on their shoulder, the Krogan populace has to realize the dire circumstances that the Reaper invasion is imposing on the galaxy. Surely, they can't be so petty as to bury their heads in the sand while Plaven and Earth burn, and all those ships; the things that the Krogan don't have, but are relying on to help protect them; are destroyed?
Tuchunka might be technically livable by the extreme standards of a species like the Krogan or Rachni, but it was in no way viable for a sizable population, nor was it ever going to make a recovery from the self imposed nuclear winter until the Salarians built the Shroud that is; but I digress.
Back to original discussion though, I agree that it was logical to assume that Wrex would push for the Genophage cure once he knew one existed; that I don't necessarily have a problem with. It's how he goes about it. Look at Primarch Victus, the Turian leader, once he knew that the Krogan wouldn't budge on the Genophage issue, and once he knew that a cure was easily available he was ready to assist in order to get things moving. He sides with Wrex in forcing the Dalatrass to release the females. He even sends badly needed troops from Palaven in order to help the Krogan with their goal, providing fighter support at the Shroud tower, plus sacrificing an entire cruiser's worth of soldiers to ensure that a Cerberus plot wouldn't destabilize the Krogan. Victus is making concessions and working with Wrex over the negotiations. You know what Wrex and the Krogan do for the Turians during that whole time that the galaxy is playing doctor? Nothing.
The Turians and even the Salarians (to an extent) are on board with seeing the cure through for the Krogan, and yet Wrex doesn't send a single platoon of Krogan help alleviate Palaven until after the Genophage cure is deployed. Nothing, not even a token fighting force as an olive branch and a sign of the two species working together. Wrex makes the rest of the galaxy, but the Turians in particular, wait before setting any boots on Palaven. How does this help? It's not like a battalion of warriors are going to make a difference to the population of a cured Krogan. The current population of Tuchunka is over 2 billion, even if the Palaven campaign would require half of that number (it doesn't), its not like their species would die out once the Genophage cure as deployed. Why then allow for the deaths of millions of beings a day, and the destruction of much needed infrastructure and the scarce few fleets remaining?
Being, incredibly generous here, let's assume that every day one million people die at the hands of the Reapers throughout the galaxy, let's also assume that the entire Genophage Arc takes place over the course of a single week. That's seven million people dead, and the loss of untold amounts of ships, supplies, and manufacturing power just because the Krogan refuse to send aid. What's more, once the Genophage has been deployed, and the galaxy lives up to Wrex's ultimatum against all advanced life in the Milky Way, he still has his people spend enough time back home to knock up a sizable portion of the Krogan females before he sends aid.
Even if one was a staunch Genophage cure supporter, that kind of response is really kinda sh***y.
And what kind of light does that place the Krogan in with the rest of the galaxy? Sure, they show up, eventually, but only after all the other species do exactly what they want. That their delay indirectly leads to the deaths of millions of people. Even with the massive chip on their shoulder, the Krogan populace has to realize the dire circumstances that the Reaper invasion is imposing on the galaxy. Surely, they can't be so petty as to bury their heads in the sand while Plaven and Earth burn, and all those ships; the things that the Krogan don't have, but are relying on to help protect them; are destroyed?
Here we go again... someone trying to argue overall morality here when I've been intentionally trying to avoid it. Everything I've said is merely geared to disputing the notion that Wrex himself is being a bad leader by representing the wishes of his people in a strategic negotiation with an "enemy" nation. It doesn't matter whether I agree or disagree with the Krogan people's viewpoint... Wrex has to, he is there leader. To expect him to just throw in with the enemy and not try to get consideration for what his people want is unrealistic... basically expecting him to be a traitor to his people.
You're still hung up on this "I'll get you someday!" line from Shepard. Get over it.
... and you're still hung up on wanting to argue that "my morality" is "wrong"... even though you have no idea what my morality on this really is. Get over it. My only points have gone towards only stating that the dilemma as presented in the game itself is poorly constructed and doesn't work.
Tuchunka might be technically livable by the extreme standards of a species like the Krogan or Rachni, but it was in no way viable for a sizable population, nor was it ever going to make a recovery from the self imposed nuclear winter until the Salarians built the Shroud that is; but I digress.
Back to original discussion though, I agree that it was logical to assume that Wrex would push for the Genophage cure once he knew one existed; that I don't necessarily have a problem with. It's how he goes about it. Look at Primarch Victus, the Turian leader, once he knew that the Krogan wouldn't budge on the Genophage issue, and once he knew that a cure was easily available he was ready to assist in order to get things moving. He sides with Wrex in forcing the Dalatrass to release the females. He even sends badly needed troops from Palaven in order to help the Krogan with their goal, providing fighter support at the Shroud tower, plus sacrificing an entire cruiser's worth of soldiers to ensure that a Cerberus plot wouldn't destabilize the Krogan. Victus is making concessions and working with Wrex over the negotiations. You know what Wrex and the Krogan do for the Turians during that whole time that the galaxy is playing doctor? Nothing.
The Turians and even the Salarians (to an extent) are on board with seeing the cure through for the Krogan, and yet Wrex doesn't send a single platoon of Krogan help alleviate Palaven until after the Genophage cure is deployed. Nothing, not even a token fighting force as an olive branch and a sign of the two species working together. Wrex makes the rest of the galaxy, but the Turians in particular, wait before setting any boots on Palaven. How does this help? It's not like a battalion of warriors are going to make a difference to the population of a cured Krogan. The current population of Tuchunka is over 2 billion, even if the Palaven campaign would require half of that number (it doesn't), its not like their species would die out once the Genophage cure as deployed. Why then allow for the deaths of millions of beings a day, and the destruction of much needed infrastructure and the scarce few fleets remaining?
Being, incredibly generous here, let's assume that every day one million people die at the hands of the Reapers throughout the galaxy, let's also assume that the entire Genophage Arc takes place over the course of a single week. That's seven million people dead, and the loss of untold amounts of ships, supplies, and manufacturing power just because the Krogan refuse to send aid. What's more, once the Genophage has been deployed, and the galaxy lives up to Wrex's ultimatum against all advanced life in the Milky Way, he still has his people spend enough time back home to knock up a sizable portion of the Krogan females before he sends aid.
Even if one was a staunch Genophage cure supporter, that kind of response is really kinda sh***y.
And what kind of light does that place the Krogan in with the rest of the galaxy? Sure, they show up, eventually, but only after all the other species do exactly what they want. That their delay indirectly leads to the deaths of millions of people. Even with the massive chip on their shoulder, the Krogan populace has to realize the dire circumstances that the Reaper invasion is imposing on the galaxy. Surely, they can't be so petty as to bury their heads in the sand while Plaven and Earth burn, and all those ships; the things that the Krogan don't have, but are relying on to help protect them; are destroyed?
I wouldn't paint the turians' involvement on Tuchanka as some generous gesture. This was strictly out of self-interest. Victus proposes that they get help from the krogan, who are basically sworn enemies of the empire, and commits some forces to ensure that this plan actually pulls through. His only concern about destabilizing the krogan is that it may drastically affect whether or not he gets the forces he needs. If the Primarch believed that the turians could fight the war without the krogan, he would probably have left them to rot, just like anyone else would.
As for the krogan sending troops to Palaven in the interim, I'm not sure what this would even accomplish except to send a handful of krogan off to die on Palaven as some symbolic gesture. The turians go to Tuchanka to perform some specific tasks to make good on a deal that the Primarch agreed to. There would be no such objective on Palaven.
Here we go again... someone trying to argue overall morality here when I've been intentionally trying to avoid it. Everything I've said is merely geared to disputing the notion that Wrex himself is being a bad leader by representing the wishes of his people in a strategic negotiation with an "enemy" nation. It doesn't matter whether I agree or disagree with the Krogan people's viewpoint... Wrex has to, he is there leader. To expect him to just throw in with the enemy and not try to get consideration for what his people want is unrealistic... basically expecting him to be a traitor to his people.
But that's the thing, I wasn't even saying that Wrex would have to "sell out" to the Turians without getting the cure, the Krogan were already getting it. Yet they don't send aid.
Being a good leader may be about getting your people's point across, but it would also have to include not crapping on your nation's allies when they are trying to help you.
I would prefer that every decision be difficult in some way, but they don't all have to be morality-based. Like choosing between Ash and Kaidan. It's (supposed to be) a difficult decision, but it's not really a moral one.
IMO, ME 2 should have been a side-quel with the actual ME 2 dealing with how the galaxy was going to prepare for the Reaper invasion, and then ME 3 dealing with how well those preparations would have played out, as well as how the players' choices effected things.
As well liked as the second game might be, it did practically nothing to advanced the plot on how to stop the Reapers.
I disagree but it's also being discussed here,
http://forum.bioware...d-reaper-story/
But that's the thing, I wasn't even saying that Wrex would have to "sell out" to the Turians without getting the cure, the Krogan were already getting it. Yet they don't send aid.
Being a good leader may be about getting your people's point across, but it would also have to include not crapping on your nation's allies when they are trying to help you.
How did he "crap" on his nation's allies? When the meeting starts, they are not allies in anything. You want Wrex to send interim troops to Palaven... but keep in mind that it's during that interim he finds out that the Turians planted a bomb on his planet and have left it there for 1,000 years... for what purpose? As others have stated, neither the Turians nor the Krogan are at that table in a "good samaritan" state of mind. It's a tough negotiation driven out of necessity among nations that have a long history of being hostile to each other. In that setting, "good" leaders are going to be "tough" on each other. No one at that table, including the salarians, is being really irrational though given the nature of their relative histories and the nature of the negotiation... and that's why everything can work out in the end.
BTW, what I find really "sad" about that whole meeting is that the human political "leader" couldn't even be bothered to show up... nor even someone with a rank above "commander"... even though the whole premise of the game is "getting help for Earth."... too busy updating his database of notable birthdays, I guess.
There's also the fact that Balak DOES kill again if Shepard lets him go. Balak was the one behind the Alliance cruiser crashing, and the mix-up of medicines leading to the deaths of Alliance soldiers in ME 3.
Now sure, if the player did kill Balak in Bring Down the Sky, ME 3 still has 'Not' Balak commit those actions...
What confuses me in this argument is the fact that Balak is the load-bearing terrorist. As reality provides, killing the head terrorist very, very rarely collapses the cell - it might lead to different crimes, but very rarely does it lead to no crimes.
I wouldn't paint the turians' involvement on Tuchanka as some generous gesture. This was strictly out of self-interest. Victus proposes that they get help from the krogan, who are basically sworn enemies of the empire, and commits some forces to ensure that this plan actually pulls through. His only concern about destabilizing the krogan is that it may drastically affect whether or not he gets the forces he needs. If the Primarch believed that the turians could fight the war without the krogan, he would probably have left them to rot, just like anyone else would.
As for the krogan sending troops to Palaven in the interim, I'm not sure what this would even accomplish except to send a handful of krogan off to die on Palaven as some symbolic gesture. The turians go to Tuchanka to perform some specific tasks to make good on a deal that the Primarch agreed to. There would be no such objective on Palaven.
I never said it was some heartfelt, generous gesture on the Turians part; if I did I would have focused on how Victus lost his son trying to help the Krogan. I'm just pointing out that the Turians provide aid and help accomplish side tasks not even associated with the initial agreement. They are the ones making sure that the Krogans get their cure while the 2 billion Krogan just sit on Tuchanka twiddling their thumbs. What good does holding off aid for Palavan until after the cure is deployed do for anyone, including the Krogan, aside from letting them act all smug now that a "sworn enemy" has to help them now? That's just bad tactics.
For all anyone knew, the Reapers could make a massive push, break the tenuous hold the Turians have over their homeworld, and then fortify it against invasion, thereby rending the Krogan support moot, and dooming the entire galaxy to a slow, agonizing death. Even looking at the best case scenario, how many ships, and personal could have been saved; ships and personnel that could have been used elsewhere in the war; if the Krogan moved forward with deployment as soon as the accord was stuck? The Genophage cure isn't going to matter when the Reapers are bombarding those precious, newborn Krogan from orbit now is it?
It would be like the US refusing to send aid to England or France during WW2 unless they relinquished all extra territoriality to America; like say gold or diamond mines in Africa. And then, when both countries agree to this, the United States waits until they start receiving shipments of gold and diamonds from those holdings before they send a single troop to Europe. That's just asinine, tactically (as well as morally) since if the Axis succeeds then all those mines in Africa won't matter.
How did he "crap" on his nation's allies? When the meeting starts, they are not allies in anything. You want Wrex to send interim troops to Palaven... but keep in mind that it's during that interim he finds out that the Turians planted a bomb on his planet and have left it there for 1,000 years... for what purpose? As others have stated, neither the Turians nor the Krogan are at that table in a "good samaritan" state of mind. It's a tough negotiation driven out of necessity among nations that have a long history of being hostile to each other. In that setting, "good" leaders are going to be "tough" on each other. No one at that table, including the salarians, is being really irrational though given the nature of their relative histories and the nature of the negotiation... and that's why everything can work out in the end.
BTW, what I find really "sad" about that whole meeting is that the human political "leader" couldn't even be bothered to show up... nor even someone with a rank above "commander"... even though the whole premise of the game is "getting help for Earth."... too busy updating his database of notable birthdays, I guess.
Allies? No, but the Turians have been providing Tuchunka with foodstuffs since the Rebellions, and the Salarians have the whole Shroud thing going on. Out of the three of them, two of these species have been aiding the Krogan for the past 1,000 years. The Genophage is irrelevant in this regard; you don't see the Krogan seeking to restore their planet, or grown their own food, those have both been supplied by their "sworn enemies". If the Turians and Salarians really were as antagonistic towards the Krogan, as they are to them, then Tuchunka would have been wiped clean of all life a long time ago.
And the bomb was planted there because the Krogan had just instigated a devastating war with the galaxy, and completely wrecked three Turian garden worlds; the Krogan should know, a good majority of them alive today were around when the Rebellions were going on. Wrex is pushing 900 years, so he should be completely aware of the state of affairs following the conflict. More than that, the government officials who ordered the placement of that device have been dead for the past six or seven generations, at least; the current administration is just cleaning up the mess left by their ancient predecessors.
Though, I agree that the human delegation of just Shepard was disappointing, and even a little insulting. We humans are expecting the Kogan to aid the Turians so that the Turians can aid us; dragging the leaders of both species to the table; and we can only be bothered to send a frontline soldier.
I never said it was some heartfelt, generous gesture on the Turians part; if I did I would have focused on how Victus lost his son trying to help the Krogan. I'm just pointing out that the Turians provide aid and help accomplish side tasks not even associated with the initial agreement. They are the ones making sure that the Krogans get their cure while the 2 billion Krogan just sit on Tuchanka twiddling their thumbs. What good does holding off aid for Palavan until after the cure is deployed do for anyone, including the Krogan, aside from letting them act all smug now that a "sworn enemy" has to help them now? That's just bad tactics.
For all anyone knew, the Reapers could make a massive push, break the tenuous hold the Turians have over their homeworld, and then fortify it against invasion, thereby rending the Krogan support moot, and dooming the entire galaxy to a slow, agonizing death. Even looking at the best case scenario, how many ships, and personal could have been saved; ships and personnel that could have been used elsewhere in the war; if the Krogan moved forward with deployment as soon as the accord was stuck? The Genophage cure isn't going to matter when the Reapers are bombarding those precious, newborn Krogan from orbit now is it?
It would be like the US refusing to send aid to England or France during WW2 unless they relinquished all extra territoriality to America; like say gold or diamond mines in Africa. And then, when both countries agree to this, the United States waits until they start receiving shipments of gold and diamonds from those holdings before they send a single troop to Europe. That's just asinine, tactically (as well as morally) since if the Axis succeeds then all those mines in Africa won't matter.
Allies? No, but the Turians have been providing Tuchunka with foodstuffs since the Rebellions, and the Salarians have the whole Shroud thing going on. Out of the three of them, two of these species have been aiding the Krogan for the past 1,000 years. The Genophage is irrelevant in this regard; you don't see the Krogan seeking to restore their planet, or grown their own food, those have both been supplied by their "sworn enemies". If the Turians and Salarians really were as antagonistic towards the Krogan, as they are to them, then Tuchunka would have been wiped clean of all life a long time ago.
And the bomb was planted there because the Krogan had just instigated a devastating war with the galaxy, and completely wrecked three Turian garden worlds; the Krogan should know, a good majority of them alive today were around when the Rebellions were going on. Wrex is pushing 900 years, so he should be completely aware of the state of affairs following the conflict. More than that, the government officials who ordered the placement of that device have been dead for the past six or seven generations, at least; the current administration is just cleaning up the mess left by their ancient predecessors.
Though, I agree that the human delegation of just Shepard was disappointing, and even a little insulting. We humans are expecting the Kogan to aid the Turians so that the Turians can aid us; dragging the leaders of both species to the table; and we can only be bothered to send a frontline soldier.
Nations here on earth have been sending foodstuffs to "impoverished" nations that are not allies for ages. There can also be ulterior motives to those actions (which Mordin alludes to in ME2). Wrex can't afford to just assume that the motives the Turians or Salarians have for that aid are inherently "good" for his people. I'm not saying that Wrex was a good guy in all of this... just that he was a "good" leader - i.e. one representing the interest of HIS people. Krogan society IS portrayed as a society that supports differences of opinion. Wherever you go in ME2 where you encounter Krogan, you overhear them arguing and that makes Wrex's situation as a leader very complex.(along with the fact that they tend to replace their leaders by killing them off). The Turians have a culture that is portrayed as having a greater sense of respect for their leadership (except for Renegade Garrus who doesn't consider himself to be a "very good Turian.") You do hear some dissenting voices, but not as many and not as strongly expressed as the Krogan. The Rachni - well, you NEVER hear but one voice from them, so that's the extreme of a very autocratic culture. The Salarians are into backdoor dealings and espionage. The humans - a combination of all of it.
The whole political structure of the game is to create a moral dilemma around what sort of government(s) the player leans towards. It's actually pretty well constructed (with a few problems like having to put Shepard, a minor ranking character, into a position of real power because he happens to be the player's character). There's no really good answer in it for everyone and everyone can "argue" the overall morality of it for infinity and not come up with one. Of all the moral dilemmas in the game, it is THE one that works the best for me no matter which moral direction I decide to lean in any given playthrough... and it's what the ending(s) are really all about (IMO, just saying).
I quite liked the Balak dilemma, seeing Kate and the other two die was rough, but letting Balak go wasn't an option, and thankfully the game gave us the option to torture him a bit for information before finally executing him. I probably enjoyed that much more than I should have tbh
On the Krogan arc, I went in with the intention of destroying it, and my resolve was solidified once I discovered Mordin was the mole and traitor and was the only reason the Krogan knew about the Krogan females, something which he did in order to sooth his conscious about the Genophage, something which I distinctly remember him telling me he had gotten over after his LM in Mass Effect 2, only to find 6 months later that he had been leaking information to the Brutes of the Mass Effect universe.
I'm fine with leakers when they leak things that the public deserves to know, like if their government is spying on them, but Mordins leak was in his self interest and his alone, no matter how he tries to dress it up, and because of it the talks with Wrex/Wreave were put in complete jeopardy once they heard about the Krogan females, and the galaxy could have been completely doomed because of it. There was no way I was going to let such recklessness go unpunished, so of course i shot him when I was given the opportunity and I destroyed the Genophage cure out of pure spite at that point, though like I said I was always going to destroy it anyway, I just did it with more malicious intent. I just don't take kindly to people, friend or not, who make galaxy changing decisions with their hearts instead of their heads and put everything at risk because of it.
You'd think the STG would have psyche tests to weed out individuals like Mordin and Padok Wiks though(how the hell was Padok even allowed to join the STG with his views?), they really need to go back through and sort out that ****.
On the Rannoch choice my decision had nothing to do with whether I thought the Geth were alive or some utter nonsense like that, I chose them because the chance to have billions of immortal robots on my side was too good to pass up lol.
It never fails to make me chuckle whenever I see posters on BSN hugely over inflate the importance of human/organic life to a hilariously ridiculous degree, when it really doesn't mean ****. Honestly, if the best argument that you could possibly come up with to justify your existence over a Geth is that you have a "soul"( ), then I'm sorry but you're not worth saving.
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You, sir, are a terrible human being. I'm not sure any moral dilemma would ever truly be a "dilemma" for you as you seem to lack any sort of moral compass to start. Please never write any dialogue for future BioWare games. Thank you.
That was an easy choice. Stop the terrorists.But it was so stupid. Who's going to leave the guy there to suffer other than a person who's already a sadistic *******? The choice in Bring Down the Sky is the only decision in all of Mass Effect that really had no wrong choice and was a true dilemma because of it.
1. Let the terrorists go to save hostages. You save the hostages, but the terrorists are free and could harm others.
2. Kill the terrorists. You stop the terrorists from hurting anyone else, but the hostages die in the process.
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