95 réponses à ce sujet

[fhs33721]

He dies in the canon ending.

 

The sequel is about

 

Spoiler

Starkiller's clone.

True enough. Still kind of cheapens the whole thing quite a bit when there is a clone that conveninently gets the old starkillers memories running around.

[pkypereira]

Agent Carter is the best of all marvel/dc TV-series and Jarvis is awesome. James D'arcy should be in ME:A
 

 

They should bring back the 1947 gentleman for ME:A.

 

James Darcy may be a good XO voice actor...

[HSomCokeSniper]

Dafuq is this thread about?

[pkypereira]

Dafuq is this thread about?

 

Basically its a "What can BioWare learn from Marvel's Agent Carter" thread

[Hadeedak]

I read too many Arthurian stories growing up and that's why I delight in heroically murdering all my Bioware protagonists while saving something or at least for principles.

 

I'm coming for you, Inquisitor. Don't think you're getting away.

 

I am a sucker for heroic sacrifice as long as something is accomplished morally or literally with it. Or if it's a good gutpunch. I also like schmoop. I'm not fussy. Still, like all my canon playthroughs have dead protagonists.

[LinksOcarina]

I guess if the jab was funny or better constructed I would give more of a **** in the end to respond with my usual vigor of discussion and contribute to this dumpster fire in a more constructed way.

 

 

Although I do like Agent Carter, it is quite a good show. 

[Vox Draco]

Adventures are only worth going on if you manage to return in the end.

 

It's not verbatim but that's basically what Jarvis said.  Truer words have never been spoken.

 

.....Did I mention I love Jarvis in that show?  He's the greatest character I've seen on TV in quite a while.  What a....well-written character.  So...well-written.  What a....what a nugget of truth. ....Yeah....Anyone else looking forward to Andromeda?  Can't wait.  It will be such a fantastic video game adventure. 

 

I somehow doubt it was deliberatly a jab at Mass Effect, but I actually agree: I fully admit that the most jarring about the endign in ME3 was the fate of Shepard. I never was or will be in the boat of the crowd that declared "Shepard has to die" , I never even udnerstood those voices...and *sigh* no, I wasn't looking forward to some Ranbow/Unicorn-superhappy-ending either...

 

Just make the damn games like Dragon Age Origins then: For people with a Messiah-Complex have them sacrifice themselves to make them feel better: The happy rest of us simply get a "Warden Stroud" they can throw into the fray doing that job for us, so our hero can watch the ending-slides in the arm of their love (shedding a tear of course for that "whathisname-again-standin-hero" ^^

 

 

 

And totally unrelated: Mr. George RR Martin! Read this! If you kill everybody off we got noone to care about anymore! Worse enough the best heroes are already dead like Joffrey, Tywin, Stannis! Don't you dare to kile Euron or gods beware Ramsey! Who shall save Westeros if you do?!

[prosthetic soul]

I guess if the jab was funny or better constructed I would give more of a **** in the end to respond with my usual vigor of discussion and contribute to this dumpster fire in a more constructed way.

 

 

Although I do like Agent Carter, it is quite a good show. 

I can tell you don't care.  You don't care so much about making an actual rebuttal that you came in here just to post vitriol.  And as we all know, vitriol is vastly preferable to actually contributing to the discussion, regardless of whether you agree with the thread or not.

 

Your passive-aggressiveness is so exemplary and is a monumental testament to how much you do not care, that the sun is shining down upon your not-so-subtle trolling; (wow, a genuine trolling accusation!  It's like coming across a Unicorn in a field of four leaf clovers!!) it's as if St. Peter himself was giving you a free pass into the gates of eternal paradise. 

 

You play by your own rules man.  You tell it like it is.  I adore that in someone like you. 

 

Spoiler

"Chronoid, you're being passive aggressive too, lolololo"

 

Yeah, I Am.  But hypocrisy doesn't negate the accusation.  And besides, I am only passive aggressive to those who have it coming (read: be extremely and unnecessarily rude).  I give in kind.  That's who I am.  A giver. 

[prosthetic soul]

I somehow doubt it was deliberatly a jab at Mass Effect, but I actually agree: I fully admit that the most jarring about the endign in ME3 was the fate of Shepard. I never was or will be in the boat of the crowd that declared "Shepard has to die" , I never even udnerstood those voices...and *sigh* no, I wasn't looking forward to some Ranbow/Unicorn-superhappy-ending either...

 

Just make the damn games like Dragon Age Origins then: For people with a Messiah-Complex have them sacrifice themselves to make them feel better: The happy rest of us simply get a "Warden Stroud" they can throw into the fray doing that job for us, so our hero can watch the ending-slides in the arm of their love (shedding a tear of course for that "whathisname-again-standin-hero" ^^

 

 

 

And totally unrelated: Mr. George RR Martin! Read this! If you kill everybody off we got noone to care about anymore! Worse enough the best heroes are already dead like Joffrey, Tywin, Stannis! Don't you dare to kile Euron or gods beware Ramsey! Who shall save Westeros if you do?!

Too late for that.  lulz.  Everyone I cared about is dead post Season 4.  Or was it Season 3?  Whatever the season which ended with the episode titled a "Vermilion Oath Shared by Two People"

[Hadeedak]

 For people with a Messiah-Complex have them sacrifice themselves to make them feel better

 

It's hard to beat death for closure on a story.

 

Though it should come at the end in most cases. And I do enjoy a good bittersweet ending. Not sure if that counts as a Messiah-complex, but eh.

[Gothfather]

Adventures are only worth going on if you manage to return in the end.

 

It's not verbatim but that's basically what Jarvis said.  Truer words have never been spoken.

 

.....Did I mention I love Jarvis in that show?  He's the greatest character I've seen on TV in quite a while.  What a....well-written character.  So...well-written.  What a....what a nugget of truth. ....Yeah....Anyone else looking forward to Andromeda?  Can't wait.  It will be such a fantastic video game adventure. 

 

So to every soldier who died on the beaches of Normandy fighting to free Europe from tyranny your message is that fight wasn't worth doing? What? there is no value in dying for a worthy cause? That the story of the 300 at Thermopylae is pointless because they died? What first responders who die on the Job have no value in society because they didn't survive? No nobility of sacrifice on your watch?

 

A Two word response sums up my feelings...

 

F@CK you.

 

Where frak just doesn't cut it.

[Hadeedak]

In the end, no one comes back alive. 

 

And even in fiction, there's been a lot of excellent stories where the protagonist doesn't make it to the epilogue.

[Suron]

Then you're woefully inept at getting your point across.

When I first read his post...the endings of ME3 are exactly what I thought about.  So no he's not inept at getting it across.  Just because YOU didn't get it or understand it doesn't make HIM the one that's inept at something.  

 

And I love how you try and tell the person starting the thread what his thread is supposedly "really" about even though he told you otherwise.  Which shows a lack of a lot of things on your part...not his.

 

But whatever.

[prosthetic soul]

So to every soldier who died on the beaches of Normandy fighting to free Europe from tyranny your message is that fight wasn't worth doing? What? there is no value in dying for a worthy cause? That the story of the 300 at Thermopylae is pointless because they died? What first responders who die on the Job have no value in society because they didn't survive? No nobility of sacrifice on your watch?

 

A Two word response sums up my feelings...

 

Where frak just doesn't cut it.

Okay, your heart was in the right place when you made this post.  That is not in question.  But I'm afraid you have a....skewed interpretation of what "adventure" actually entails.  Let me address each example you gave. 

 

1. The soldiers who died on the beaches of Normandy were fighting in a war.  Sure, some who were enlisted or who were drafted probably thought they were going on a grand, epic adventure, filled with kawaii anime babes (you know, as seen in Valkyria Chronicles), but the fact remains that in real life, war should never ever be romanticized.  I guess you could view it as an adventure and you wouldn't technically be wrong, but war is not fun.  There are adventures, and then there are crucibles.  With war it's more like a crucible on massive amounts of steroids with very little chance of getting to the end.

 

War is more than just excitement with a slight hint of danger (even if video games sometimes make you think that danger is some jolly friend you see every once in a while).  Now, you may say

 

"Chronoid, Mass Effect was about a war, you're contrasting two things which are actually very similar!"

 

But you would be only be right to an extent.  Mass Effect is a piece of fiction representing a fantastical war against Cthulu-sized robots of death.  War, as it is seen in reality...is somewhat different.  What Jarvis said had more to do with a personal journey or a pilgrimage you undertake willingly.  And yes, definitely an actual pilgrimage, not just a trial for the soul. 

 

2. As for the 300 at Thermopylae, they lived for battle.  And when they decided to stand up to the Persian menace, they more than likely did it because in their mind, if they didn't, Sparta would literally be wiped from the face of the EARTH.  An adventure isn't something you really undertake out of necessity, especially in fiction.  But Thermopylae certainly wasn't something the Spartans did because it seemed like a fun idea at the time.  I highly doubt it. 

 

3. First responders do what they do because it's their job and they have a passion for willingly putting their lives on the line for the greater good.  An adventure, as it is seen in shows like Agent Carter and in many video games, feature characters who also have jobs which put them in danger.  But not all dangerous jobs are adventures and not many adventures are merely jobs.  You're sort of making this false-equivalency in regards to adventures and harrowing jobs which put people in danger.  And again, fiction is a whole other beast. 

 

Adventures are more personal than that.  And I am in no way marginalizing what the 300 did, what the soldiers did on that God-forsaken beach, or what first responders do.  When I said Andromeda would be an awesome adventure, I said that from a perspective of a player playing a video game.  I wasn't actually implying that a war of Mass Effect proportions would be an adventure.  Because war is no adventure.  It is Death eyeing you from afar in a crowded marketplace. 

[Hadeedak]

Okay, but there's really a lot of excellent fiction that doesn't end in the reader-insert character surviving.

 

Sheesh, just look at Shakespeare for that. A story isn't lessened JUST because the protagonist dies at the end. Don't get me wrong, it isn't necessary, and plenty of wonderful stories have happy protagonists who will live on long after the last we see of them, presumably.

 

But a prerequisite for a great adventure story is not protagonist survival, or survival of your favorite character. And it's harder to get invested when survival is always assumed.

[Iakus]

Okay, but there's really a lot of excellent fiction that doesn't end in the reader-insert character surviving.

 

Sheesh, just look at Shakespeare for that. A story isn't lessened JUST because the protagonist dies at the end. Don't get me wrong, it isn't necessary, and plenty of wonderful stories have happy protagonists who will live on long after the last we see of them, presumably.

 

But a prerequisite for a great adventure story is not protagonist survival, or survival of your favorite character. And it's harder to get invested when survival is always assumed.

Except Chronoid is not saying survival should be assumed.  But that survival should be possible.  Like in DAO, where you can let your character die to slay the archdemon.  Or let someone else do it.  Or even take Morrigan's third option.  If the player is supposed to shape the story, let the player shape how the story ends too.

[Hadeedak]

Survival is possible in Mass Effect trilogy, unless I'm hallucinating my last playthrough.

 

You have four very distinct choices, with variants based on what you did throughout the games. Low EMS destroy is a lot different than paragon control these days. And that's why I like it.

[prosthetic soul]

Except Chronoid is not saying survival should be assumed.  But that survival should be possible.  Like in DAO, where you can let your character die to slay the archdemon.  Or let someone else do it.  Or even take Morrigan's third option.  If the player is supposed to shape the story, let the player shape how the story ends too.

It's certainly not assumed.  But holy crap is it preferable to the alternative.  I'm pretty sure Romeo and Juliet didn't kill themselves because they thought it was the end of their adventure and they would achieve so much and teach their respective clans a lesson by offing themselves.  Romeo did it because he thought Juliet was dead and couldn't stand the thought of living without her.  Juliet did it because Romeo was actually dead and she couldn't stand the thought of living without him.  The story of Romeo and Juliet is a quintessential example of true love being beaten down by society and the harsh lesson which rides on the coattails of a monumental personal tragedy. 

 

In other words....I'm pretty sure they killed themselves because the stupidity of their kin forced them to do so. It was the end of their adventure but it didn't end the way THEY wanted it to.  They didn't do it to achieve some nobler goal.  Not in the context of the story Shakespeare was trying to frame it. 

[prosthetic soul]

Survival is possible in Mass Effect trilogy, unless I'm hallucinating my last playthrough.

 

You have four very distinct choices, with variants based on what you did throughout the games. Low EMS destroy is a lot different than paragon control these days. And that's why I like it.

Four distinct choices yes.  But four very homogeneous outcomes.  And I am just going to have to immensely beg to differ on the bold part.  I just....plain disagree on that point.  In a way, what Bioware did with the ending was a lot like the problem Mass Effect 3 had on the whole.  You make a ton of dialogue choices in the game.  You make a ton of choices during cutscenes in the game.   But none of these choices really have much of an impact, in either direction. 

 

Bioware mistakenly assumes that having choices be present in a vacuum is okay.   I don't know how they got this idea or at what point in the timeline they thought choices should just be there arbitrarily without much of an impact.  But somewhere down the line, it changed.  We go from actual choices with outcomes in Jade Empire to Mass Effect 3-a game in which you can choose to sacrifice an alien queen and have it mean ABSOLUTELY NOTHING in the final installment.  And that is just one of many examples. 

 

If you're going to give the player a choice, then make it have an impact.  Don't bother giving us a choice if it doesn't change anything.  Hell, just make Andromeda a linear action/adventure game if that's the way you want to play it.  It would certainly be preferable to making a game under the GUISE of it being an RPG. 

[Linkenski]

My personal opinion is just that beginning, middle and end are equally important. **** up one of them and the whole is damaged. The whole optimism and sugarcoat narrative the media ran on ME3 was so obnoxious thinking that because the middle was great it "didn't matter the ending was bad". I can't ignore it and neither could millions of other fans or the alleged "vocal minority".

[Vox Draco]

Survival is possible in Mass Effect trilogy, unless I'm hallucinating my last playthrough.

 

You have four very distinct choices, with variants based on what you did throughout the games. Low EMS destroy is a lot different than paragon control these days. And that's why I like it.

 

The very heart of the problems with these choices - as I see it - is exactly that we are PRESENTED with these choices at all. What I mean we play through three games, and then we can choose door one, two, three or the mystery box. If any of these choices would have evolved naturally over the course of the games, and the decisons we made prior (and the war-points is the most stupid mechanic I've ever seen in a game, could have been interesting, but so stupid it hurts ^^)? I might even consider it to be okay, and it would be fun to play the games again and change decisions so I don't end up turning everyone into Borg...

 

But in-game those great meaningful choices in the end have had the same impact on me as if the Starbrat asks me to choose between: Strawberry, chocolate or vanilla flavoured icecream for desert...

[prosthetic soul]

The very heart of the problems with these choices - as I see it - is exactly that we are PRESENTED with these choices at all. What I mean we play through three games, and then we can choose door one, two, three or the mystery box. If any of these choices would have evolved naturally over the course of the games, and the decisons we made prior (and the war-points is the most stupid mechanic I've ever seen in a game, could have been interesting, but so stupid it hurts ^^)? I might even consider it to be okay, and it would be fun to play the games again and change decisions so I don't end up turning everyone into Borg...

 

But in-game those great meaningful choices in the end have had the same impact on me as if the Starbrat asks me to choose between: Strawberry, chocolate or vanilla flavoured icecream for desert...

And there my friends is the real reason why the endings are terrible. Not even exaggerating.   Bioware inadvertently deadened the impact to the conclusion of what could have been an extraordinarily amazing trilogy.  Instead of people talking about The Force Awakens and its inevitable sequel right now, they could be talking how amazing Andromeda will be.   Many people are still hyped for Andromeda, make no mistake. 

 

No one can deny that, not even me.  But instead of everyone and their mother heralding its oncoming approach, some people are a bit more wary, if nothing else.  That is the true tragedy out of all of this.  Bioware had a legendary gift for the ages.  Instead they fumbled the gift at the 1 yard line. 

[Iakus]

 

In other words....I'm pretty sure they killed themselves because the stupidity of their kin forced them to do so. It was the end of their adventure but it didn't end the way THEY wanted it to.  They didn't do it to achieve some nobler goal.  Not in the context of the story Shakespeare was trying to frame it. 

 

This letter doth make good the friar’s words,
Their course of love, the tidings of her death.
And here he writes that he did buy a poison
Of a poor 'pothecary, and therewithal
Came to this vault to die and lie with Juliet.

Where be these enemies?—Capulet!  Montague!  

See what a scourge is laid upon your hate,
That heaven finds means to kill your joys with love!
And I, for winking at your discords, too
Have lost a brace of kinsmen.  All are punished.

 

[Iakus]

Survival is possible in Mass Effect trilogy, unless I'm hallucinating my last playthrough.

 

 

If "faceless torso taking a breath" is considered survival, I suppose...

[prosthetic soul]

This letter doth make good the friar’s words,
Their course of love, the tidings of her death.
And here he writes that he did buy a poison
Of a poor 'pothecary, and therewithal
Came to this vault to die and lie with Juliet.

Where be these enemies?—Capulet!  Montague!  

See what a scourge is laid upon your hate,
That heaven finds means to kill your joys with love!
And I, for winking at your discords, too
Have lost a brace of kinsmen.  All are punished.

 

Hmm....it appears I  have been gravely mistaken concerning Romeo and Juliet.  That last line makes all the difference really.  For some reason I have always thought of Romeo and Juliet as the world's most deadly serious teenage drama sitcom. 

 

I think I'm going to have to stand by my original point though.  They didn't set out on a journey to punish their kinsmen from the onset of the story, but merely did so after all other avenues were spent at the very end.  An act of desperation.  I guess you could say love was their adventure but the adventure ended when Romeo thought Juliet was dead.  

 

Or I could just be backpedaling up the yin yang right now.   Score a point for the "Not all adventures have to end in a joyful return" crowd. Maybe that's why I really, REALLY hated

Spoiler

Sunshine