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#326
Kabraxal

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Our first born child!

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Seriously, though, I would have been fine with fewer maps, less Skyhold customization, removal of mounts (since they were useless anyway). I know most are going to disagree, but I would rather have only been allowed to play as human, and only one voice set, to improve the side quests. That was a lot of development time and resources there, and paying twice the budget for all of the Inquisitor's lines couldn't have been cheap.

ETA: This is going to get me in trouble, but I would have rather Bio worked on side quests than spend the extra year creating the Cullen and Solas romances.

Our first born child!

giphy.gif

Seriously, though, I would have been fine with fewer maps, less Skyhold customization, removal of mounts (since they were useless anyway). I know most are going to disagree, but I would rather have only been allowed to play as human, and only one voice set, to improve the side quests. That was a lot of development time and resources there, and paying twice the budget for all of the Inquisitor's lines couldn't have been cheap.

ETA: This is going to get me in trouble, but I would have rather Bio worked on side quests than spend the extra year creating the Cullen and Solas romances.

And that is the divide... Many of us want the customisation options (skyhold and race/sex/voice) and the companion content. TW3 sacrificed depth of companion content and customisation in order to grant a few extra branching quests. This is the whole point I have argued... The companion quests are the type of substantial side content many of us want and will not sacrifice it or PC customisation to get an extra zone quest or two. You want something different. It isn't a matter of one game offering less... But of two games with different focuses. The draw to Bioware for most has always been the companions and how we interact and influence them. If that isn't what you want, DA is not going to scratch your itch. It is one of the reasons why TW3 failed to engage me. It is a game less focused on companions and interacting/influencing and more about playing with consequences on a larger scale with very limited rp abilty.

DA put the focus on the companions and that is what I've always wanted in Bioware games. Again, the question isn't the amount of deep side content... It's on where you want it. DA equals TW3 in the amount, but since it does not hit where you want it, ypu don't like it. And I hope they don't listen to you or others like you and we get one race, limited rp ability, and less companion focus. I mean... That was the big gripe with DA2 for crying out loud.
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#327
vbibbi

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And that is the divide... Many of us want the customisation options (skyhold and race/sex/voice) and the companion content. TW3 sacrificed depth of companion content and customisation in order to grant a few extra branching quests. This is tge whole point I have argued... The companion quests are the type of substantial side content many of us want and will notsacrifice it or PC customisation to get an extra zone quest or two. You want something different. It isn't a matter of one game offering less... But of two games with different focuses. The draw to Bioware for most has always been the companions and how we interact and influence them. If that isn't what you want, DA is not going to scratch your itch. It is one of the reasons why TW3 failed to engage me. It is a game less focused on companions and interacting/influencing and more about playing with consequences.

DA put the focus on the companions and that is what I've always wanted in Bioware games. Again, the question isn't the amount of deep side content... It's on where you want it. DA equals TW3 in the amount, but since it does not hit where you want it, ypu don't like it. And I hope they don't listen to you or others like you and we get one race, limited rp ability, and less companion focus. I mean... That was the big gripe with DA2 fir crying out loud.

I mentioned two companion romances, not cutting entire companions or their quests or their other content. So I don't know where you're getting that. It's a fact that the Cullen and Solas romances were added in the extra year of development time, so if we hadn't had those, we still would have had a "full" game's worth of companion content.

 

And I don't agree at all that DA2 had less companion focus: it was the only DA game that had two paths for each companion with friendship and rivalry, had multiple companion quests and discussion in each act, and I personally felt like it was the companion group that felt the most like a group of friends rather than comrades in arms or employees.

 

I doubt DA4 will have race restrictions, Bioware heard all of the uproar over cutting back races and it's probably a big reason why the game was delayed for a year. I don't think the racial choice made that much of an impact, but I know being able to play as a different race is important to people. Even though game data shows that the majority of people play as human.

 

The Skyhold customization is nice until I realized it's pure surface level and doesn't mean anything. I'm playing a RPG, not the Sims, so I don't really care what kind of bed or wall drapery I have. And the upgrades have no affect at all. The mage/templar tower doesn't even have anyone in it!

 

If you are only concerned with companion content, then why do you care if the game is smaller in size? It wouldn't affect companions, it would only reduce the size or number of maps and the side quests contained in them. How is asking for better side quest content harmful to the companion quests which have always been done well by Bioware?


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#328
CronoDragoon

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Well, I do think there were too many companions. 12 including advisors, who received just as much if not more content. 6 is the right amount to me.
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#329
Guitar-Hero

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I mentioned two companion romances, not cutting entire companions or their quests or their other content. So I don't know where you're getting that. It's a fact that the Cullen and Solas romances were added in the extra year of development time, so if we hadn't had those, we still would have had a "full" game's worth of companion content.

 

And I don't agree at all that DA2 had less companion focus: it was the only DA game that had two paths for each companion with friendship and rivalry, had multiple companion quests and discussion in each act, and I personally felt like it was the companion group that felt the most like a group of friends rather than comrades in arms or employees.

 

I doubt DA4 will have race restrictions, Bioware heard all of the uproar over cutting back races and it's probably a big reason why the game was delayed for a year. I don't think the racial choice made that much of an impact, but I know being able to play as a different race is important to people. Even though game data shows that the majority of people play as human.

 

The Skyhold customization is nice until I realized it's pure surface level and doesn't mean anything. I'm playing a RPG, not the Sims, so I don't really care what kind of bed or wall drapery I have. And the upgrades have no affect at all. The mage/templar tower doesn't even have anyone in it!

 

If you are only concerned with companion content, then why do you care if the game is smaller in size? It wouldn't affect companions, it would only reduce the size or number of maps and the side quests contained in them. How is asking for better side quest content harmful to the companion quests which have always been done well by Bioware?

Very good point, also DA2 is vastly underrated when it comes to its focus on companions, DAI only had "that" particular feeling when it came to sera and rooftime. Limiting the zones means they have the time and resources to focus on improving the content in each, instead of scatter shooting minial quests in zones that don't add anything except time-sinks.


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#330
UniformGreyColor

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Our first born child!

 

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Seriously, though, I would have been fine with fewer maps, less Skyhold customization, removal of mounts (since they were useless anyway). I know most are going to disagree, but I would rather have only been allowed to play as human, and only one voice set, to improve the side quests. That was a lot of development time and resources there, and paying twice the budget for all of the Inquisitor's lines couldn't have been cheap.

 

ETA: This is going to get me in trouble, but I would have rather Bio worked on side quests than spend the extra year creating the Cullen and Solas romances.

 

I do not see this as a viable option. Mounts had their use when I had already done a lot in the Hinterlands and just needed to get somewhere faster from a camp to a point of interest for example. With that said, I don't think customizing Skyhold is really a big deal and I don't think a lot of people love that feature, but its one of those things that gives you points for having a "good game" from reviewers and is used a lot as a marketing tactic.. people just expect that kind of thing in games now and I don't like the precedent that that has for games. I'd also say about mounts that there were way too many different ones. I wouldn't mind maybe 3 mounts, but the fact that there were prolly closer to 25 says they focused on the wrong thing there. Mounts also had a pretty poor sprint animation. I did like the way Roach worked for TW3 though. As far as selectable races go, that's something that people really like and I personally would def rather see it in the game than not. I would kinda agree with you with the fact that there were multiple voices for the protagonist. Just get one good one for male and female and call it a day. I really do like the fact that there was such divers landscapes in this game and I hope it stays that way.

 

I always play males in my games, but I can definitely see the appeal to some women to want to romance Cullen, and Solas in particular because of the way the story turned out with trespasser (haven't personally played it yet).



#331
Kabraxal

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I mentioned two companion romances, not cutting entire companions or their quests or their other content. So I don't know where you're getting that. It's a fact that the Cullen and Solas romances were added in the extra year of development time, so if we hadn't had those, we still would have had a "full" game's worth of companion content.

And I don't agree at all that DA2 had less companion focus: it was the only DA game that had two paths for each companion with friendship and rivalry, had multiple companion quests and discussion in each act, and I personally felt like it was the companion group that felt the most like a group of friends rather than comrades in arms or employees.

I doubt DA4 will have race restrictions, Bioware heard all of the uproar over cutting back races and it's probably a big reason why the game was delayed for a year. I don't think the racial choice made that much of an impact, but I know being able to play as a different race is important to people. Even though game data shows that the majority of people play as human.

The Skyhold customization is nice until I realized it's pure surface level and doesn't mean anything. I'm playing a RPG, not the Sims, so I don't really care what kind of bed or wall drapery I have. And the upgrades have no affect at all. The mage/templar tower doesn't even have anyone in it!

If you are only concerned with companion content, then why do you care if the game is smaller in size? It wouldn't affect companions, it would only reduce the size or number of maps and the side quests contained in them. How is asking for better side quest content harmful to the companion quests which have always been done well by Bioware?

Yet Solas/Cullen are two great romances that add quite a bit to the game, especially Solas. And the customisation of Skyhold lets me bring my own depth and small details to MY character. My Andrastien Qunari would be lesser without the ability to rp and have chantry decorations and focus in Skyhold. It is quite nice to switch to my chantry hating elf and see her ideals play out in a small way just by the decorations. Little things can add a lot to characters and the overall experience.

As for sacrificing areas... I have the substantial side content in companions. I have my rp possibilities. My third passion in RPGs are exploration and a sense of actual history. It helps further inform my role play and my innate curiosity. Add banter being zone triggered and that means I wouldn't sacrifice that experience just to get a few more quests that may change the world. I get that in the main quests and companion quests already. These zones give me the opportunity to simply walk and soak in the history. What could I cut? The hissing wastes with the amazing ruins and intriguing tidbits you find in the puzzles or the wandering "sister"? Or maybe the Exalted plains, where you see how the war ravaged the country and then slowly find hints about elvish history that leads to a minor quest that further enriches the historical depth of the world?

Seriously, DA: I gave me exactly what I wanted. It's character, rp, and historical depth dwarfs many other games. Hell, they then gave us Jaws of Hakkon, which not only gave more of that, but hinted even more at the fade/spirits issues Solas and this game has raised, the Descent with some lf the greatest art design in gaming and more hints and lore that maje Thedas more "alive" and then Trespasser... Tying it all back togerher by giving a greater sense of character/companion 'closure'. So no, I would sacrifice nothing in this game since, for me, it is one of the greatest games that has given me one of my favourite experiences ever. Let other franchises cater to a different design ideology.

#332
Nefla

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One of my biggest problems with the game is that there's a huge separation between the main plot and the side quests/zones with the main plot being in self contained areas 99% of the time. The power requirements system just adds to this disconnect. Why do I need "power" to talk to one revered mother who's in the middle of a town square like you would talk to any other NPC? Did those other random onlookers also need 4 power to be there? Why does anyone care how many herbs I've collected, how many notes I've followed, how many rings I've found, or goats I've herded?

 

I think the power requirements should never have been a thing and I think each zone should have been incorporated into the main quest somehow with maybe only 1 or 2 being completely extra/optional. There should have been 1 overarching quest per zone that was a lot more fleshed out than the ones we got and had the ability to make choices, zoomed in conversations and cutscenes, roleplay with lots of dialogue options, etc...like the planetary questlines in SWtOR

 

They could have integrated the Hinterlands into the main plot while still keeping the "help refugees" and "mages/templars running amok" ideas. Let's say the mages had taken over the port and the templars had barricaded the road/pass leading to Orlais. To progress you'd need to get rid of one or both. They could have actually written a multi-partstoryline about it, shown the people being oppressed and killed rather than lazing about in a field all day safe and sound, given you the ability to talk to and confront characters on both sides, maybe manipulate them into taking each other out or betraying one to the other. Maybe helping the refugees could have involved clearing out a fort/stronghold where the refugees could be safe and stationing soldiers to protect it. The choice you made there could have had visible results in the region later on. This would have been a lot more interesting and fun for me than "find blankets/rams/kill these voiceless, nameless mooks/kthanx." Then there could have been a few of the simpler shot-reverse-shot quests like with Ruck or Zerlinda in DA:O to put a face on the local problems scattered here and there. I would gladly have sacrificed extra zones, mounts, etc...for more fleshed out quests.

 

As I've said before, I'm hoping BioWare will use the same engine and many of the same systems and assets they created for DA:I in DA4 so that more resources/budget will be available for better sidequests in DA4.


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#333
robertthebard

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I mentioned two companion romances, not cutting entire companions or their quests or their other content. So I don't know where you're getting that. It's a fact that the Cullen and Solas romances were added in the extra year of development time, so if we hadn't had those, we still would have had a "full" game's worth of companion content.


They're getting it from the "Golden Boy" game everyone wants to compare Inquisition to, TW 3. In order to provide that "depth" of side questing they provided, they don't have customization, they don't have a lot of companion interaction, unless a new squeeze in almost every village counts? You know, the cards from the first game? The second opens with a really nice cutscene of Triss's ass. Hey, maybe they should have added that to DA I, opening? That's the thing, you want DA Witcher, and didn't get it. I wanted DA I, and got it. I got lots of content, some that I'll never see even, in DA I, other than youtube videos of it anyway.
 

And I don't agree at all that DA2 had less companion focus: it was the only DA game that had two paths for each companion with friendship and rivalry, had multiple companion quests and discussion in each act, and I personally felt like it was the companion group that felt the most like a group of friends rather than comrades in arms or employees.
 
I doubt DA4 will have race restrictions, Bioware heard all of the uproar over cutting back races and it's probably a big reason why the game was delayed for a year. I don't think the racial choice made that much of an impact, but I know being able to play as a different race is important to people. Even though game data shows that the majority of people play as human.


...and yet, you want to go back to that to satisfy what you want out of DA, and everyone else be damned?
 

The Skyhold customization is nice until I realized it's pure surface level and doesn't mean anything. I'm playing a RPG, not the Sims, so I don't really care what kind of bed or wall drapery I have. And the upgrades have no affect at all. The mage/templar tower doesn't even have anyone in it!
 
If you are only concerned with companion content, then why do you care if the game is smaller in size? It wouldn't affect companions, it would only reduce the size or number of maps and the side quests contained in them. How is asking for better side quest content harmful to the companion quests which have always been done well by Bioware?


The fact is, those that were looking for companion content got it, in spades. Those that were looking for TW 3 didn't get it. They didn't get it because we had customization of our protagonist, instead of being Geralt. They didn't get it because we had actual interactions with our companions, with full cutscenes. The stuff that most people playing BW games are looking for. Those that are looking for a movie with some mouse clicking in the middle played TW 3, and were thrilled. Who's right? Nobody, at least, not in the extent that someone else is wrong. The only thing that's wrong is expecting a game with a completely different focus to be like TW 3. I've said this before, but if I'm comparing games in a balanced manner, it's TW 3 and Assassin's Creed. They are, after all, cut from the same cloth.

#334
vbibbi

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They're getting it from the "Golden Boy" game everyone wants to compare Inquisition to, TW 3. In order to provide that "depth" of side questing they provided, they don't have customization, they don't have a lot of companion interaction, unless a new squeeze in almost every village counts? You know, the cards from the first game? The second opens with a really nice cutscene of Triss's ass. Hey, maybe they should have added that to DA I, opening? That's the thing, you want DA Witcher, and didn't get it. I wanted DA I, and got it. I got lots of content, some that I'll never see even, in DA I, other than youtube videos of it anyway.
 

...and yet, you want to go back to that to satisfy what you want out of DA, and everyone else be damned?
 

The fact is, those that were looking for companion content got it, in spades. Those that were looking for TW 3 didn't get it. They didn't get it because we had customization of our protagonist, instead of being Geralt. They didn't get it because we had actual interactions with our companions, with full cutscenes. The stuff that most people playing BW games are looking for. Those that are looking for a movie with some mouse clicking in the middle played TW 3, and were thrilled. Who's right? Nobody, at least, not in the extent that someone else is wrong. The only thing that's wrong is expecting a game with a completely different focus to be like TW 3. I've said this before, but if I'm comparing games in a balanced manner, it's TW 3 and Assassin's Creed. They are, after all, cut from the same cloth.

Nothing in my post you referenced mention TW3 at all. You seem to want to bring this back to claiming people who want improved side quests think TW3 is a much better game. I'm not discussing TW3 anymore, just speaking on the missed opportunities in DAI. And you have not played TW3 so any "information" you're using as proof from that game is misinformed at best and false at worst.

 

I also listed several elements of the game that I would be fine with dropping to provide more resources to other areas. I don't know how you make this a personal attack and make it sound like I actively want to eliminate these things and don't care if other people don't like it. Talk about hyperbole "everyone else be damned."

 

And again instead of actually responding to my specific examples of improving elements of securing the Crossroads refugees, you move on to broad statements without any context and try to shift the content of my DAI specific post into being a competition with TW3.


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#335
robertthebard

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Nothing in my post you referenced mention TW3 at all. You seem to want to bring this back to claiming people who want improved side quests think TW3 is a much better game. I'm not discussing TW3 anymore, just speaking on the missed opportunities in DAI. And you have not played TW3 so any "information" you're using as proof from that game is misinformed at best and false at worst.


You asked where they came up with the idea from their response. I answered your question. Considering the article in the OP starts out with a direct comparison of DA I and TW 3, what conclusion is it that I was supposed to draw, that he was comparing it to Baldur's Gate?
 

I also listed several elements of the game that I would be fine with dropping to provide more resources to other areas. I don't know how you make this a personal attack and make it sound like I actively want to eliminate these things and don't care if other people don't like it. Talk about hyperbole "everyone else be damned."


So leaving it like it is wouldn't bother you? Because you suggested dropping some romances, and even stated that you were going to be murdered for it, and then you're surprised when you get murdered for it? Did you just throw that part in there to throw people off or something, or did you believe that people would just ignore the whole point, which is probably what should have been done. You'd be happy with less to get less in the long run. Hey, you got a cutscene of the hunter telling you the same stuff he tells you w/out a cutscene, at the cost of Cullen's romance. Hmm, fair trade? I don't know, I don't like him, carry over thing, but I'm sure there's lots of people that wouldn't want to make that trade. Solasmancers probably feel about the same way. So yes, you'd be happy, because you don't care about either romance, so everyone else be damned. Of course, this leaves out the crucial part of that quote, the ? meaning I was asking a question.
 

And again instead of actually responding to my specific examples of improving elements of securing the Crossroads refugees, you move on to broad statements without any context and try to shift the content of my DAI specific post into being a competition with TW3.


I'm sorry, was I supposed to go off the premise of the OP in order to address something I'd already addressed? Check it out, I addressed it again in this post. If I had NWN still installed, I'd make a cutscene and post it.

#336
vbibbi

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Yet Solas/Cullen are two great romances that add quite a bit to the game, especially Solas.


Not the same thing as me asking to remove companions from the game. I'd appreciate if you referenced my posts accurately.
 

And the customisation of Skyhold lets me bring my own depth and small details to MY character. My Andrastien Qunari would be lesser without the ability to rp and have chantry decorations and focus in Skyhold. It is quite nice to switch to my chantry hating elf and see her ideals play out in a small way just by the decorations. Little things can add a lot to characters and the overall experience.


So you're okay with not having side quests where we have multiple choices to help roleplay your PC, but you need drapes and windows in Skyhold in order to define your character? Even though when you play as the Andrastean Qunari and the Dalish elf you will be completing the side quests in the exact same way, ie not roleplaying the characters?
 

As for sacrificing areas... I have the substantial side content in companions. I have my rp possibilities. My third passion in RPGs are exploration and a sense of actual history. It helps further inform my role play and my innate curiosity. Add banter being zone triggered and that means I wouldn't sacrifice that experience just to get a few more quests that may change the world. I get that in the main quests and companion quests already. These zones give me the opportunity to simply walk and soak in the history. What could I cut? The hissing wastes with the amazing ruins and intriguing tidbits you find in the puzzles or the wandering "sister"? Or maybe the Exalted plains, where you see how the war ravaged the country and then slowly find hints about elvish history that leads to a minor quest that further enriches the historical depth of the world?

You would rather have slightly more banter than quests that could be world changing? It sounds like you were not victim to the banter issue, otherwise this would sound like a huge waste of resources.

 

Let other franchises cater to a different design ideology.


I do have to ask, did you enjoy DAO and/or DA2? A lot of people who love love love DAI aren't as fond of the previous two games, and I have the sense that they feel it improved upon the base model of the franchise. It's always off putting to me when people claim that DA has always been this "design ideology" when DAI is very different from the first two games. So because I enjoyed the first two games more, shouldn't I be allowed to ask Bioware to cater to their original design ideology and tell people who are fine with shallow side quests to go to another franchise, like TES?


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#337
vbibbi

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You asked where they came up with the idea from their response. I answered your question. Considering the article in the OP starts out with a direct comparison of DA I and TW 3, what conclusion is it that I was supposed to draw, that he was comparing it to Baldur's Gate?


If you had actually read through the response, the poster was responding to a specific post of mine, not to the OP. And the specific post of mine had nothing to do with TW3. You keep dragging this back to that. Not every post in this thread is directly referencing the article in the OP. I wasn't aware that was a forum requirement.
 
 

So leaving it like it is wouldn't bother you? Because you suggested dropping some romances, and even stated that you were going to be murdered for it, and then you're surprised when you get murdered for it? Did you just throw that part in there to throw people off or something, or did you believe that people would just ignore the whole point, which is probably what should have been done. You'd be happy with less to get less in the long run. Hey, you got a cutscene of the hunter telling you the same stuff he tells you w/out a cutscene, at the cost of Cullen's romance. Hmm, fair trade? I don't know, I don't like him, carry over thing, but I'm sure there's lots of people that wouldn't want to make that trade. Solasmancers probably feel about the same way. So yes, you'd be happy, because you don't care about either romance, so everyone else be damned. Of course, this leaves out the crucial part of that quote, the ? meaning I was asking a question.


You consistently deliberately try to twist my words so that I'm attacking people with opposing views. First off, I didn't say I would get murdered for my comment, I said I would get in trouble. Hyperbole that you keep accusing me of, and much more violent than my intention. Second, you are creating an assumption that I would actively seek to cut things out and everyone else "be damned." This is obviously false and you're trying to paint me as an aggressor who bulldozes over anyone who disagrees with me. Third, and coincidentally the third hyperbole, is that I would want to trade an entire romance arc for one cutscene of an existing shallow side quest. Clearly the resources taken from one romance would go toward more than fleshing out one side quest, and it wouldn't just add a cut scene but would add investigative dialogue chains, have multiple options of quest completion, have follow up consequences to the quest completion.

 

And I chose Cullen and Solas specifically because they were last minute additions to the games, not to spite Cullen or Solas fans. I personally enjoyed the Cullen romance myself. I never tried the Iron Bull romance because it didn't interest me, but I didn't offer to drop him because he's my least favorite companion. This is from a resource viewpoint, since the two late romances are easily measurable as a time's worth of work.
 
 

I'm sorry, was I supposed to go off the premise of the OP in order to address something I'd already addressed? Check it out, I addressed it again in this post. If I had NWN still installed, I'd make a cutscene and post it.

I have no clue what you're talking about. I am referencing the fact that when I respond to one of your posts, it's a toss up whether you will respond to my points, as you chose not to on this post, or not.


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#338
Kabraxal

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Not the same thing as me asking to remove companions from the game. I'd appreciate if you referenced my posts accurately.


So you're okay with not having side quests where we have multiple choices to help roleplay your PC, but you need drapes and windows in Skyhold in order to define your character? Even though when you play as the Andrastean Qunari and the Dalish elf you will be completing the side quests in the exact same way, ie not roleplaying the characters?



You would rather have slightly more banter than quests that could be world changing? It sounds like you were not victim to the banter issue, otherwise this would sound like a huge waste of resources.


I do have to ask, did you enjoy DAO and/or DA2? A lot of people who love love love DAI aren't as fond of the previous two games, and I have the sense that they feel it improved upon the base model of the franchise. It's always off putting to me when people claim that DA has always been this "design ideology" when DAI is very different from the first two games. So because I enjoyed the first two games more, shouldn't I be allowed to ask Bioware to cater to their original design ideology and tell people who are fine with shallow side quests to go to another franchise, like TES?

Origins is right with Inquisition and I love DA2. But in DA2 Rping was limited and the world was far too constrained. They listened and put out Inquisition, that matches Origin to me.

And I still get a lot of roleplay in quests. I have companion quests, judgements, meetings with agents, and more and that is enough quest based RPing if you are asking to sacrifice customisation options just to get more. Skyhold decorations add to the experience. Why sacrifice that to get one more quest with minor changes available? I have quite a few of those quests already. Give me more variety and the chance to tinker with some details too.

And yes I want more banter... It adds an actual feeling of companionship and realistic interaction between team members. It made the world feel more alive compared to the constrained isolation in say TW3. There was little interaction that matched just the banter from DA: I. I would have liked TW3 if they focused less on some of the quests and gave more scenes/events like the Witchers drinking or ar least more back and forth between other NPCs. TW as a series never felt like a living world to me.

And that's the rub... You want a more constrained game with a more defined PC and less open role playing. Questing is only part of the role playing experience. How you dress, decorate, the race and sex of the PC, equip, and even the mount you ride are all part of role playing. What I'm seeing is the divide between those that want more actual power to the player to define the character and those who want scripted events and choices designed for a less fluid character.

It's the same divide that has erupted between Fallout 4 fans and TW fans. The games cater to different audiences. There exists games that offer what you want. Stop trying to drag Dragon Age backwards. They tried what you wanted in DA2 and it didn't work as well as Origins or Inquisition (And again, I love DA2, but it is weaker for its design choices and role playing limitations).

#339
robertthebard

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If you had actually read through the response, the poster was responding to a specific post of mine, not to the OP. And the specific post of mine had nothing to do with TW3. You keep dragging this back to that. Not every post in this thread is directly referencing the article in the OP. I wasn't aware that was a forum requirement.
 
 

You consistently deliberately try to twist my words so that I'm attacking people with opposing views. First off, I didn't say I would get murdered for my comment, I said I would get in trouble. Hyperbole that you keep accusing me of, and much more violent than my intention. Second, you are creating an assumption that I would actively seek to cut things out and everyone else "be damned." This is obviously false and you're trying to paint me as an aggressor who bulldozes over anyone who disagrees with me. Third, and coincidentally the third hyperbole, is that I would want to trade an entire romance arc for one cutscene of an existing shallow side quest. Clearly the resources taken from one romance would go toward more than fleshing out one side quest, and it wouldn't just add a cut scene but would add investigative dialogue chains, have multiple options of quest completion, have follow up consequences to the quest completion.
 
And I chose Cullen and Solas specifically because they were last minute additions to the games, not to spite Cullen or Solas fans. I personally enjoyed the Cullen romance myself. I never tried the Iron Bull romance because it didn't interest me, but I didn't offer to drop him because he's my least favorite companion. This is from a resource viewpoint, since the two late romances are easily measurable as a time's worth of work.
 
 
I have no clue what you're talking about. I am referencing the fact that when I respond to one of your posts, it's a toss up whether you will respond to my points, as you chose not to on this post, or not.


Yep, taking what you say in context with the conversation is deliberately twisting your words. You'd be perfectly happy to have romance content cut, your words, in order to get a cutscene about hunting rams to feed refugees. This isn't what you said, or more accurately, part of what you meant? How is anything I've said twisting your words? You made the comment, and didn't like having it repeated? It's not like you wished for it and it magically happened. You made a statement, I commented on one possible end result, but I twisted what you said?

Now, to the next detail here: Where are you getting this idea for more cinematic cutscenes from again? What was it you held up as a shining example of what we needed to have here to make you perfectly happy? You know what, it doesn't matter. You're not going to be perfectly happy, because you're not going to get most of what you "require" to be so. We're not, hopefully, going back to a Hawke type protagonist, assuming we even get another game. We're not going to have cut romances so that you can have cutscenes of "I can't hunt rams because of the mages, if you could bring back some food, I could feed these people". I wasn't all that excited about doing it either, I'm sure not going to suddenly be all that excited because now someone else gets to decide what I focus on during the conversation.

You see, there's a big difference between "happy with what we got" and "I want you to decide what's important to my character" during a side conversation. Ironically, this convo style was advertised before release as one of the things that people really wanted, and now, BOOM, it's all bad. They seriously bragged about being able to walk away from some NPC dialogs w/out having to say a word. It sure would have sucked to have every dialog go to a cutscene with as aggressive as the camp guards were about chatting you up about requisitions. That would have added tons of enjoyment to the game, yes? Those were, after all, even more side quests, that I mostly tried to avoid...

So while you look wistfully at whatever it is that you're looking at that DA I fell short of, let's try to remember that some of us got the stuff that we felt was more important. We got to spend that cutscene budget with people that actually mattered, comps, LI, advisors and main plot and essential personnel, instead of everyone that wanted to talk at the expense of customization of our character, a broader selection of LIs, one of which was fan requested, customization of our keep, which if you make a garden helps a lot with some mats once you have the right seeds, and mounts, which I could have done w/out, frankly. I didn't miss any context, or subtext to the side quests because there wasn't a cutscene. I knew why I was there, and what I was there for, and understood what I was going to need to do to do what I was there for, all w/out having to lose control of my character, or my camera.

#340
BansheeOwnage

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If there were some type of internal counter of how many of these quests we had accomplished and why, similar to the Keep's tracking of if we're a recruiting, merciful, harsh judge, then there could be an argument that these quests develop the flavor of the Herald and the Inquisition they end up leading. But there are no changes in outcome based on which side quests we choose to complete.

Can I just repeat, as I've said elsewhere, that I hate that oversimplified Keep choice? Okay, maybe that's a bit dramatic, but it's seriously not well thought-out. I wasn't a pragmatic recruiting judge. I wasn't a merciful one. I wasn't harsh. I was all three, depending on the situation! Isn't that the point of individual judgements? Because people do different things for different reasons?

 

Why isn't there at least a "Varied Sentences" option in the Keep for those of us who don't want to either recruit, release, or execute everyone?

I actually have never NOT done the horse master quest, but I don't think it's required to get mounts in order to progress the main story. In fact, none of the zone "main missions" are required to complete the game.

Trivia: On my third playthrough, I forgot to do that quest before heading to Skyhold. Queue my surprise when I walked near the stables and my Inquisitor exclaimed: "The horses! I forgot about the Fereldan horses!" With a verbal self-facepalm.

 

And when I talked to Dennet after that, there was actually slightly different dialogue since we were at Skyhold now. I was actually impressed that they accounted for that variable.

 

Our first born child!

 

Seriously, though, I would have been fine with fewer maps, less Skyhold customization, removal of mounts (since they were useless anyway). I know most are going to disagree, but I would rather have only been allowed to play as human, and only one voice set, to improve the side quests. That was a lot of development time and resources there, and paying twice the budget for all of the Inquisitor's lines couldn't have been cheap.

 

ETA: This is going to get me in trouble, but I would have rather Bio worked on side quests than spend the extra year creating the Cullen and Solas romances.

*Gasp*

Spoiler

 

You'd take away the only romance I like, and the only voice I like?! You monster :crying: :P

 

Though to be fair, I don't think adding Cullen and Solas as romance options was the only thing Bioware did during that year. At least, I hope not! :lol:



#341
AlanC9

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One of my biggest problems with the game is that there's a huge separation between the main plot and the side quests/zones with the main plot being in self contained areas 99% of the time.


Could you get into why this is a problem besides issues with the Power system? Plenty of other games have done this, including BG2 and all the ME games.

#342
UniformGreyColor

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One of my biggest problems with the game is that there's a huge separation between the main plot and the side quests/zones with the main plot being in self contained areas 99% of the time. The power requirements system just adds to this disconnect. Why do I need "power" to talk to one revered mother who's in the middle of a town square like you would talk to any other NPC? Did those other random onlookers also need 4 power to be there? Why does anyone care how many herbs I've collected, how many notes I've followed, how many rings I've found, or goats I've herded?

 

I think the power requirements should never have been a thing and I think each zone should have been incorporated into the main quest somehow with maybe only 1 or 2 being completely extra/optional. There should have been 1 overarching quest per zone that was a lot more fleshed out than the ones we got and had the ability to make choices, zoomed in conversations and cutscenes, roleplay with lots of dialogue options, etc...like the planetary questlines in SWtOR

Spoiler

 

Lets be honest here, its nowhere near 99% of the time that the zones are disconnected from good solid content. There are zones like Storm Coast that is essential to getting Iron Bull, fighting a dragon, dealing with darkspawn, finding Grey Warden stuff, dealing with Red Templars ect. all stuff worth doing. I'd argue getting Iron Bull and dealing with the Red Templars tie into the main quest, but maybe that's just me.

 

The reason why it costs power to get to locations is because power is a recourse and measure the amount of personal you have to scout the area to find out more about it. What is more realistic? To have a char like the Herald of Andraste not know anything about the place they are going or to have scouts go ahead and give the Herald something to work with?

 

The reason that SWTOR is different is because originally it was a game with a subscription fee to even play and that means they would have more revenue to put into the game in the first place, NVM that it was a different dev team working on the game.

 

They could have integrated the Hinterlands into the main plot while still keeping the "help refugees" and "mages/templars running amok" ideas. Let's say the mages had taken over the port and the templars had barricaded the road/pass leading to Orlais. To progress you'd need to get rid of one or both. They could have actually written a multi-partstoryline about it, shown the people being oppressed and killed rather than lazing about in a field all day safe and sound, given you the ability to talk to and confront characters on both sides, maybe manipulate them into taking each other out or betraying one to the other. Maybe helping the refugees could have involved clearing out a fort/stronghold where the refugees could be safe and stationing soldiers to protect it. The choice you made there could have had visible results in the region later on. This would have been a lot more interesting and fun for me than "find blankets/rams/kill these voiceless, nameless mooks/kthanx." Then there could have been a few of the simpler shot-reverse-shot quests like with Ruck or Zerlinda in DA:O to put a face on the local problems scattered here and there. I would gladly have sacrificed extra zones, mounts, etc...for more fleshed out quests.

As I've said before, I'm hoping BioWare will use the same engine and many of the same systems and assets they created for DA:I in DA4 so that more resources/budget will be available for better sidequests in DA4.

 

1. I know the Hinterlands pretty well considering I've played through it more than a few times. I can tell you that this place is one of the most essential places to discover why the Herald is doing what they are doing.

2. You can't just say "lets say" because it is a hypothetical that has been proven to happen a different way. The game is finished so there is no use in using hypotheticals as a frame of reference.

3. There is enough explanation for the war between the Templars and Mages, we don't need more reasons to get the point across that there is a war going on there. The Hinterlands is ripe with it. We don't need more extrapolated story on the war between the Templars and Mages it is perfectly fine the way it is.

4. The fact that so many people have problems with the power system and fetch quests is because they just don't realize that we are basically starting with very little influence. When the story starts, and when we go to the Hinterlands for the first time, all the Herald is is someone who can close Fade Rifts, and before that, they were a prisoner. They had NO qualifications as a mean to lead that was within the context of the story at that point in time. 

5. The Hinterlands works on many different levels for RP reasons and it is where you will choose to see how your character will play out. If you played confused Herald, it makes complete sense on how the herald is basically doing the small things to figure out what to do next. This also works with stoic herald in that he is doing it to prove himself and it works for a lot of different ways you choose to RP your herald.

6. They could have gone with shot-reverse-shot for RP reasons, but they decided to take it in a different direction that works perfectly fine. When you say "fleshed out quests," that is highly a matter of opinion. There is definitely plenty of room for immersive story in there and the fact that they chose not to go with shot-reverse-shot just for the sake of cinematics alone does not justify it as a means to an ends.

 

Just because the devs may or may not choose to keep some of the technical structure in place for the next game is no guarantee that you will be happy in the way that they do side quests.



#343
Nefla

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Could you get into why this is a problem besides issues with the Power system? Plenty of other games have done this, including BG2 and all the ME games.

Because it makes it feel like two separate games, because it doesn't give me a reason to be in those maps in the first place.

 

Lets be honest here, its nowhere near 99% of the time that the zones are disconnected from good solid content.

Please re-read that statement. The main plot is disconnected from the zones and set in self contained areas or Skyhold/Haven 99% of the time. The only exceptions are quickly getting Mother Giselle, briefly talking to Lohgain/Stroud/Alistair in a cave, and a quick fight with Erimond in the desert.

 

There are zones like Storm Coast that is essential to getting Iron Bull,

I find this worth doing

 

fighting a dragon, dealing with darkspawn, finding Grey Warden stuff, dealing with Red Templars ect. all stuff worth doing.

I don't find these worth doing

 

I'd argue getting Iron Bull and dealing with the Red Templars tie into the main quest, but maybe that's just me.

I'd argue that it's optional side content. You can beat the game without ever talking to Iron Bull and it changes nothing about the plot. I'd especially argue against killing red templars being part of the main plot since they're the generic mooks which are nearly everywhere and again killing them does not affect the plot in any way.

 

The reason why it costs power to get to locations is because power is a recourse and measure the amount of personal you have to scout the area to find out more about it. What is more realistic? To have a char like the Herald of Andraste not know anything about the place they are going or to have scouts go ahead and give the Herald something to work with?

Yet the Herald of Andraste is the one who goes and charts every map, establishes all the camps, clears all the keeps, etc...Again, why would I need to rescue goats and find blankets and such to be able talk to some old lady right in the middle of the town square?

 

The reason that SWTOR is different is because originally it was a game with a subscription fee to even play and that means they would have more revenue to put into the game in the first place, NVM that it was a different dev team working on the game.

That's nice. What does this have to do with having one long and fleshed out quest per zone and a few shot-reverse-shot quests(which were present in BioWare's previous games) in each zone as well? I'm not asking for 8 completely different stories, 8 unique sets of companions, 16 voice actors, operations, flashpoints, etc...If making fleshed out sidequests were impossible to do why was TW3 able to do it so well while having a great story, great characters with awesome "companion" style quests, etc..?

 

1. I know the Hinterlands pretty well considering I've played through it more than a few times.

So have I.

 

I can tell you that this place is one of the most essential places to discover why the Herald is doing what they are doing.

"Doing what they're doing" as in their ultimate goal to close the breach? Yeah it's because they have the special snowflake hand and are the only one capable of closing it. Again I find all of the zones poorly presented side-jaunts that distract from the fact that the inquisitor should be working towards closing the breach or dealing with Corypheus. The fact that the inquisitor/herald is the one who has to do all these menial tasks makes it even more glaringly obvious how useless the inquisition soldiers and scouts are.

 

2. You can't just say "lets say" because it is a hypothetical that has been proven to happen a different way. The game is finished so there is no use in using hypotheticals as a frame of reference. Um I can say whatever I want and include whatever idea or scenario I want that I think would have made it better. The point in giving those examples is to make one think of it in a more creative way: "how could this have been done better" "how could this have been better integrated into the plot?" To make one think of the side quests in a different way and hopefully keep those criticisms in mind for the next game. I feel like a majority of the zone-based sidequests in DA:I were tacked on and thrown together with the idea of "let's give a basic excuse as to why they're doing this task, the player wont notice or care." I noticed, and I care and I'm listing the ways in which I think the sidequests of the next game can be improved.

 

 

3. There is enough explanation for the war between the Templars and Mages, we don't need more reasons to get the point across that there is a war going on there. The Hinterlands is ripe with it. We don't need more extrapolated story on the war between the Templars and Mages it is perfectly fine the way it is.

It's fine to you. It's amateurish and boring to me. I hate being told something and not shown it. The game didn't make it real to me in the slightest.

 

4. The fact that so many people have problems with the power system and fetch quests is because they just don't realize that we are basically starting with very little influence. When the story starts, and when we go to the Hinterlands for the first time, all the Herald is is someone who can close Fade Rifts, and before that, they were a prisoner. They had NO qualifications as a mean to lead that was within the context of the story at that point in time. 

Just because someone disagrees with you or hates something you like doesn't mean they're a knuckle dragging idiot that can't understand the most basic concepts BioWare beats us over the head with. I understood it just fine, as did everyone else who played the game. The thing is, it was not used to any believable degree and was horribly implemented. I ask again, why would doing these "pickle extraction" quests gain us power or influence? Sure finding people's lost rings, putting flowers on graves, etc...might make the local villagers like you and it would be believable if you got a discount in the local village shop but it wouldn't get you an invitation to the Empress' ball. None of that stuff would have any effect on whether we could storm Adamant fortress or not or go to the Arbor wilds. None of those power grinding quests involved recruiting legions of soldiers (at most you get 1 at a time) none of the quests involve diplomacy and alliances with powerful people who could open the right doors. Again I ask you: why would I need "power" to talk to a revered mother who is on a soap box in the middle of the town square? There are plenty of other people standing around in the same spot. You could have been a local child and just gone up and talked to her. I was expecting some kind of private meeting of the highest ranking chantry officials inside the grand cathedral or something but nope.

 

5. The Hinterlands works on many different levels for RP reasons

In your opinion, not mine.

 

and it is where you will choose to see how your character will play out. If you played confused Herald, it makes complete sense on how the herald is basically doing the small things to figure out what to do next. This also works with stoic herald in that he is doing it to prove himself and it works for a lot of different ways you choose to RP your herald.

Ah so you're one of those "it's good because I can make up everything in my head" people. Almost none of the quests give you multiple dialogue options or choices or different ways to resolve the quest that would let you define your character. Your headcanon is not supported or reinforced within the actual game any more than if I decided I wanted to play an inquisitor who was a half-dragon shapeshifter. I could tell myself anything I wanted "oh she doesn't kill dragons because she's half dragon" and so on but it's not reinforced or supported. Again, if I'm meant to make up everything in my head why am I playing a game rather than writing my own book?

 

6. They could have gone with shot-reverse-shot for RP reasons, but they decided to take it in a different direction

To cut costs. Not because of some kind of art direction.

 

that works perfectly fine.

Not for me.

When you say "fleshed out quests," that is highly a matter of opinion.

Obviously, and I've clearly outlined over and over in dozens of posts even including video examples what I think of as a "fleshed out quest."

 

There is definitely plenty of room for immersive story in there

Too bad they didn't implement one.

 

and the fact that they chose not to go with shot-reverse-shot just for the sake of cinematics alone does not justify it as a means to an ends.

 

Just because the devs may or may not choose to keep some of the technical structure in place for the next game is no guarantee that you will be happy in the way that they do side quests.

Putting back the elements I like and discarding elements I don't like is a pretty good indication that I will like the quest or the game better. I don't think I could possibly like the side quests any worse. Maybe if the game electrocuted me every time I did one...


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#344
Nefla

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 I know most are going to disagree, but I would rather have only been allowed to play as human, and only one voice set, to improve the side quests. That was a lot of development time and resources there, and paying twice the budget for all of the Inquisitor's lines couldn't have been cheap.

You know, part of me hopes the next DA will have a human-only protagonist so I can make a clean break from the series. No more "but-but maybe this time it will be something I like :crying: "


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#345
Joseph Warrick

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Planetary questlines are a very good precedent and Crestwood follows it (Before release I assumed all would). Crestwood is one of the better appreciated areas because there is a story.
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#346
UniformGreyColor

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*snip*(because its hard to reply to the way you chose to quote me)

 

To me, it doesn't matter so much if the area follows the main questline or not as long as the content is something I enjoy doing.

 

If you don't like fighting dragons in a game called Dragon Age I don't know what to tell you..

 

Why I say fighting the Red Templars fits into the main quest is because the Red Templars are one of the beings that answers to Cory. Its not that much of a stretch to say because The Red Templars serve the main antagonist that is is related to the main story arch. Iron Bull as a playable char that you can interact with and even romance is a huge deal. Does it change the main outcome of the game? No. Should it? I don't thinks so. My point is because IB adds such quality content it makes no different if getting him as a companion changes the outcome of the game. I'm currently doing a run through where IB is always in my party (after Skyhold). I have not done that before, but I find the commentary he provide to be great and he has cool abilities and that is why he is staying in on this run through.

 

You don't need to do a single thing extra to have the miniscule amount of power needed to meet with the cleric so to me its a moot point. Look, gaining power is one of those things that is usually taken for granted in games. This is one instance where BW decided to be explicit about getting more powerful as the game progresses and if its not done just the right way, people through a fit that it didn't exactly meet the way they had envisioned it in their minds. RPGs inherently have a story associated with them. It is almost a given that usually you start with very little and gaining more and more resources as the game progresses. The only thing BW did differently is put numbers on it.

 

I will just have to disagree with you that everything needs to be explicitly spelled out for me to know what is going on in the game.

 

You talk about TW3 as though everything you do in that game has to do with the main story arch.. I'd say most of what you do in that game has less to do with the main story arch that DA:I. I think the big problem people have saying "the side quests don't fit into the may story arch" is for one reason: people have been trained that the main parts of the main story arch must be linear rather than dynamic. With DA:I that changes things a great deal when knowing that you don't HAVE to do a completion of a story from beginning to end all in one go.

 

When you say "special snowflake hand" cynically, you are basically going against the core premise of the main story arch. The "special snowflake hand" was likely came up with very early in the writing process for this game. You might as well join the "just make DA:O 2" crowd. BW is looking to be a game changer when it comes to RPGs. The fact that people don't like the game because it isn't just like the previous games they have made is evidence of this.

 

The reason I say you can't work with hypotheticals on a situation that has already occurred is not because it lacks creativity to think of those things, but because the industry is moving forward and as such, there is a framework that is constantly built upon previously used systems. BW has proven if nothing else that they do not go backwards, only forwards. They might use concepts used much earlier in gaming as a reference, but it is only a reference and not a direct copy. I see pretty much no one on this forum talking about Assassin's Creed games because its a game that has largely gone stale because Ubi keeps pumping out the same game over and over. Also, when it comes to practical application of concepts, it works very differently than theoretically. So while you can say "what if Sera was only romanceable by a male elf character" it begins to diverge into an area that if it were so, would change the game in such a way that Sera would no longer be the same character. The same concept applies to "what if.." wherever considering where a game needed to change previously, rather than sequentially. For that reason, it is best to take what we know about the current system in place and compound on that in a manner that is realistic and palatable rather than taking what we know of a system and going backwards with it so that we can apply that to a new system. The entire system would have to be replaced if you are working based on hypotheticals and that is just way too much work for the devs to accomplish.

 

 

Again, if I'm meant to make up everything in my head why am I playing a game rather than writing my own book?

 

 

I am quoting you here to make a point. I made a comparison earlier in this thread saying how when the devs focus so heavily on cinematics as opposed to other means of getting the point across that it is the same difference between reading a book and watching TV. TV has its place, but if I want to use my imagination, I read a book, I don't watch TV. TV tells, reading a book imagines. I like to think of my video games as somewhere between reading a book and watching TV, so naturally I would want elements of both in it, preferably at the same time and place in the video game. Many people do not know how to use their imaginations and that's a real problem in today's world.

 

You are speaking as someone with not as much imagination as myself when you say "not used to any believable degree and was horribly implemented." I share a different opinion. I think the game was made for those people who think like myself. I agree not as much was spelled out in DA:I, but there was enough context to understand why things made sense on a meta level.

 

We don't know why BW went with less shot-reverse-shot for sure. I'd argue it was art directing because its not that difficult to actually do shot-reverse-shot cinematics. What is difficult and often goes with that, are voiced dialog options and that is where it gets expensive over the long run.

 

If you really can't stand the side quests that much, then it is true that you lack the intuitive grasp needed to imagine the way the world works in this game. I am sorry, but that is the truth.


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#347
Nefla

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To me, it doesn't matter so much if the area follows the main questline or not as long as the content is something I enjoy doing.

That's nice. Either way, most of the side content was not something I enjoyed doing.

 

If you don't like fighting dragons in a game called Dragon Age I don't know what to tell you..

I play games primarily for story, characters, and character building/roleplay not combat. I don't care what the story is called.

 

Why I say fighting the Red Templars fits into the main quest is because the Red Templars are one of the beings that answers to Cory. Its not that much of a stretch to say because The Red Templars serve the main antagonist that is is related to the main story arch.

It's extra tacked on mooks. It affects the story in zero ways.

 

Iron Bull as a playable char that you can interact with and even romance is a huge deal. Does it change the main outcome of the game? No. Should it? I don't thinks so. My point is because IB adds such quality content it makes no different if getting him as a companion changes the outcome of the game. I'm currently doing a run through where IB is always in my party (after Skyhold). I have not done that before, but I find the commentary he provide to be great and he has cool abilities and that is why he is staying in on this run through.

I didn't say anything about Iron Bull not being "quality content" I said he's optional content.

 

You don't need to do a single thing extra to have the miniscule amount of power needed to meet with the cleric so to me its a moot point.

You need to grind 4 power doing menial tasks that I don't enjoy and it's required to be able to meet the cleric. Later quests have you grinding as many as 40. Again you fail to answer why doing any of that stuff should be a requirement for meeting a lone woman in a public place or why random goatherding would get you an invitation to the Empress' ball or why following notes in the Emerald Graves makes your troops ready to storm Adamant Fortress.

 

Look, gaining power is one of those things that is usually taken for granted in games. This is one instance where BW decided to be explicit about getting more powerful as the game progresses and if its not done just the right way, people through a fit that it didn't exactly meet the way they had envisioned it in their minds. RPGs inherently have a story associated with them. It is almost a given that usually you start with very little and gaining more and more resources as the game progresses. The only thing BW did differently is put numbers on it.

BioWare didn't give adequate story reasons that went along with the power requirements and the things that earned you power and influence are not things that would have realistically done so. All the power requirements ended up doing was forcing people who don't like the side quests to do over 100 of them in order to progress the plot.

 

I will just have to disagree with you that everything needs to be explicitly spelled out for me to know what is going on in the game.

Calm it down with the passive aggression and putting words in other people's mouths. Did I say "oh golly, I don't understand what's going on, someone please explain it to me?" Yeah, no. Explicitly spelling things out is exactly what the sidequests do (quite literally when it comes to the note based quests). You seem to have decided that anyone who disagrees with you is an idiot and that anyone who finds something poorly done, uninspired, etc..."just doesn't understand." Telling and not showing is just poor storytelling.

 

You talk about TW3 as though everything you do in that game has to do with the main story arch..

Not true.

 

I'd say most of what you do in that game has less to do with the main story arch that DA:I.

Not everything has to be connected to the main plot, but the main plot needs to be the reason I'm in an area (and TW3 did this). Sidequests can be done along the way.

 

I think the big problem people have saying "the side quests don't fit into the may story arch" is for one reason: people have been trained that the main parts of the main story arch must be linear rather than dynamic. With DA:I that changes things a great deal when knowing that you don't HAVE to do a completion of a story from beginning to end all in one go.

Um what? Do you mean people don't know they can do some of the main quests out of order or do you mean they don't know they don't have to finish the game? In any case, if you want a game where you can just bugger off and ignore the main plot forever and have there be no consequences then you can't also have a story about a growing breach in the sky that is spilling out demons, an ancient evil wizard that is destroying the world, and the player as the only one capable of stopping them. It makes no sense for you to be wandering way off course just to run around and do random pickle extractions.

 

When you say "special snowflake hand" cynically, you are basically going against the core premise of the main story arch. The "special snowflake hand" was likely came up with very early in the writing process for this game.

While I appreciate that BioWare tried to kind of lampshade this trope by having the chosen one/special snowflake status granted because of random chance, in the end it was the same as every other special snowflake story. You're still the only one capable of saving the world because of that hand and the random chance has no adverse affect on your character's social standing or power.

 

You might as well join the "just make DA:O 2" crowd. BW is looking to be a game changer when it comes to RPGs. The fact that people don't like the game because it isn't just like the previous games they have made is evidence of this.

Yes, because that's exactly what I've been saying "I dun liek it becuz it not DA:O" :rolleyes: In what way was BioWare "looking to be a game changer" when it came to DA:I? The story was cliche and not very well done, the companions seemed like a random assortment of people off the street rather than a team, the side quests were shallow and tacked on, the combat was watered down, there were fewer options for roleplay and fewer character types you could play (no one ruthless or evil for example). DA:I didn't feel like BioWare tried something innovative and fell short, it felt like they clearly overcorrected based on (their interpretation of) criticism of DA2, tried to capture Skyrim's sales numbers through a semi-open world (without knowing what people like about Skyrim) and played it way too safe with the story.

 

The reason I say you can't work with hypotheticals on a situation that has already occurred is not because it lacks creativity to think of those things, but because the industry is moving forward and as such, there is a framework that is constantly built upon previously used systems. BW has proven if nothing else that they do not go backwards, only forwards. They might use concepts used much earlier in gaming as a reference, but it is only a reference and not a direct copy. I see pretty much no one on this forum talking about Assassin's Creed games because its a game that has largely gone stale because Ubi keeps pumping out the same game over and over. Also, when it comes to practical application of concepts, it works very differently than theoretically. So while you can say "what if Sera was only romanceable by a male elf character" it begins to diverge into an area that if it were so, would change the game in such a way that Sera would no longer be the same character. The same concept applies to "what if.." wherever considering where a game needed to change previously, rather than sequentially. For that reason, it is best to take what we know about the current system in place and compound on that in a manner that is realistic and palatable rather than taking what we know of a system and going backwards with it so that we can apply that to a new system. The entire system would have to be replaced if you are working based on hypotheticals and that is just way too much work for the devs to accomplish. Ok, clearly you have no idea what I'm talking about. :huh: It's not about changing a specific already done quest, it's about thinking about how to make a more detailed and integrated quest in the future. I'm guessing you're not an artist because if you were, you'd be familiar with the concept of art critique. If I draw a picture of a dog and someone critiques the picture saying "the dog's legs are bent the wrong direction, it should be more like ___" it's meant to improve your knowledge and technique for the next picture. You can't say "well this picture is already done so your critique is irrelevant! :angry:" and you can't critique a picture that hasn't been drawn yet. You can give ideas on what to do in the future and that's what we're doing in this thread.

 

I am quoting you here to make a point. I made a comparison earlier in this thread saying how when the devs focus so heavily on cinematics as opposed to other means of getting the point across that it is the same difference between reading a book and watching TV. TV has its place, but if I want to use my imagination, I read a book, I don't watch TV. TV tells, reading a book imagines. I like to think of my video games as somewhere between reading a book and watching TV, so naturally I would want elements of both in it, preferably at the same time and place in the video game. You realize that books (for adults) have descriptions right?

 

Many people do not know how to use their imaginations and that's a real problem in today's world. You are speaking as someone with not as much imagination as myself when you say "not used to any believable degree and was horribly implemented." I share a different opinion. I think the game was made for those people who think like myself. I agree not as much was spelled out in DA:I, but there was enough context to understand why things made sense on a meta level.

There's that insulting passive aggression again :rolleyes: . Tell me, when you watch the Star Wars prequels do you believe Anakin and Padme as a couple in love? They tell you they're in love, they say that they feel things for each other all the time. Since they said it it must be well done right? No. I'm guessing you don't read many books since you don't seem to know much about creative writing.

 

We don't know why BW went with less shot-reverse-shot for sure. I'd argue it was art directing because its not that difficult to actually do shot-reverse-shot cinematics. What is difficult and often goes with that, are voiced dialog options and that is where it gets expensive over the long run.

We can make an educated guess that there was hardly any of the budget left when it came down to doing sidequests.

 

If you really can't stand the side quests that much, then it is true that you lack the intuitive grasp needed to imagine the way the world works in this game. I am sorry, but that is the truth.

I'm really wishing for a facepalm emoji right now...You think I lack imagination and "intuitive grasp" because I find the DA:I sidequests shallow and poorly done, I think you have a simple mind that is easily entertained. I'm sorry but that's the truth. The DA:I sidequests are the equivalent of a children's book where everything is told and not shown and where there is zero nuance, depth, or subtext. Everything is "the puppy had a ball, the ball was red, the puppy was happy." My niece loves that kind of story too, she's 3.


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#348
AlanC9

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When I conscripted the templars she wasn't happy. Maybe she just reacts based on which option we choose. Or my overall approval wasn't high enough with her yet.

Have to check videos. Maybe her reactions are just different on the Templar path; she does have more in common with them.
 

Having Valammar and the bandit fortress farther out makes sense, but the tiny quests in the far reaches felt like padding out the map.

Valammar isn't really very far out from the most likely gameplay paths. The Lake Luthias camp is right up the hill from the Crossroads, which all players have to clear, and recruiting Blackwall requires the Herald to almost walk past the entrance.

As for tiny quests, well, there are only two things to put in the further reaches of the map. Big things, or things that aren't big. So sometimes it's one and sometimes it's the other.

#349
AlanC9

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Because it makes it feel like two separate games, because it doesn't give me a reason to be in those maps in the first place.

Again, how is that different from other CRPGs that have used this system? In DAI you go to maps for Power, in BG2 you go to maps for money, in ME3 you go to maps for War Assets, in ME1 you go to maps for....nah, I got nothing.

Or is it no different and they were bad too?

Incidentally, the reply style you're adopting with UniformGreyColor would be awfully inconvenient for someone attempting to respond to you from a mobile device.

#350
Seraphim24

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There's a lot of reasons modern RPGs can be boring or exciting, side quests is just one thing...... it's just one small thing on a mountain of other things in an RPG (everything from spell effects, to enemy HP balance, or item availability, or core game system (die 20, etc), or the amusing nature of the jokes)