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Article on the nature of modern RPG side quests


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#351
Addictress

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Again, how is that different from other CRPGs that have used this system? In DAI you go to maps for Power, in BG2 you go to maps for money, in ME3 you go to maps for War Assets, in ME1 you go to maps for....nah, I got nothing.

Or is it no different and they were bad too?

Incidentally, the reply style you're adopting with UniformGreyColor would be awfully inconvenient for someone attempting to respond to you from a mobile device.

In Mass Effect 1, the large regions were 3 distinct regions clearly introduced by Captain Anderson. The miscellaneous planets and floating pirate ships and etc were tightly designed side quests that allowed limited exploration with either interesting bits of lore or equipment, none of it felt rote. Each was a level, and you could tell it was staged. Remember Luna with the unshackled AI.

In DAI, it seemed like they had 10 Noverias, but they weren't introduced like Noveria, and many didn't even need to ever be unlocked. The Western Approach was one of the mandatory ones, because Erimond was converting Grey Wardens there, although the way you accessed it was the same way you accessed every other less-important quest, which rather muddled its importance in hindsight.

In fact the temple in the WA where you found Erimond was just one landmark lost in the vast sands of the Western Approach next to the wyvern dung I had to pick up.

Something about the staging there was off.

#352
AlanC9

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I wouldn't call them tightly designed, myself. And staged? The procedurally-generated planets with copy-paste buildings?

Anyway, that has nothing at all to do with what Nefla was talking about.
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#353
Addictress

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I wouldn't call them tightly designed, myself. Anyway, that has nothing at all to do with what Nefla was talking about.


It is. She said the regions are disconnected from the main plot, and you were asking how the sidequests or side areas in other games like ME1 were any different. I described some of the ways they felt different to me.

#354
Addictress

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Not "technically" disconnected mind you, because all the regions were "technically" connected, but not artistically. That's the issue.

#355
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So, art criticism. Yeah.

#356
AlanC9

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It is. She said the regions are disconnected from the main plot, and you were asking how the sidequests or side areas in other games like ME1 were any different. I described some of the ways they felt different to me.

But you weren't talking about them being connected to the main plot. Unless I have no idea what concept "connected to the main plot" is being used to refer to.

I mean, if you want to say that they felt different, that's a different concept and you should use different words. And ME1 still wouldn't pass that test for me because of the lousy production values on the UNC worlds, but since most of them fail the RP test hard anyway that's not the real problem.

#357
Nefla

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Again, how is that different from other CRPGs that have used this system? In DAI you go to maps for Power, in BG2 you go to maps for money, in ME3 you go to maps for War Assets, in ME1 you go to maps for....nah, I got nothing.

Or is it no different and they were bad too?

Incidentally, the reply style you're adopting with UniformGreyColor would be awfully inconvenient for someone attempting to respond to you from a mobile device.

I've never played BG2 so I have no idea. In ME3 I thought the war assets were terrible as well. In ME1 I was fine with the sidequests you did in the same area as the main plot (ex: fixing the water pipes for the settlers of Zu's Hope while I was there) I found the random planets pretty much useless but since I wasn't forced to go to them to grind Asari writings and such in order to unlock the main plot it didn't bother me.

 

Are you saying that because you're on a mobile device and want me to reply normally?



#358
UniformGreyColor

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To me, it doesn't matter so much if the area follows the main questline or not as long as the content is something I enjoy doing.

That's nice. Either way, most of the side content was not something I enjoyed doing.

 

If you don't like fighting dragons in a game called Dragon Age I don't know what to tell you..

I play games primarily for story, characters, and character building/roleplay not combat. I don't care what the story is called.

 

Why I say fighting the Red Templars fits into the main quest is because the Red Templars are one of the beings that answers to Cory. Its not that much of a stretch to say because The Red Templars serve the main antagonist that is is related to the main story arch.

It's extra tacked on mooks. It affects the story in zero ways.

 

Iron Bull as a playable char that you can interact with and even romance is a huge deal. Does it change the main outcome of the game? No. Should it? I don't thinks so. My point is because IB adds such quality content it makes no different if getting him as a companion changes the outcome of the game. I'm currently doing a run through where IB is always in my party (after Skyhold). I have not done that before, but I find the commentary he provide to be great and he has cool abilities and that is why he is staying in on this run through.

I didn't say anything about Iron Bull not being "quality content" I said he's optional content.

 

You don't need to do a single thing extra to have the miniscule amount of power needed to meet with the cleric so to me its a moot point.

You need to grind 4 power doing menial tasks that I don't enjoy and it's required to be able to meet the cleric. Later quests have you grinding as many as 40. Again you fail to answer why doing any of that stuff should be a requirement for meeting a lone woman in a public place or why random goatherding would get you an invitation to the Empress' ball or why following notes in the Emerald Graves makes your troops ready to storm Adamant Fortress.

 

Look, gaining power is one of those things that is usually taken for granted in games. This is one instance where BW decided to be explicit about getting more powerful as the game progresses and if its not done just the right way, people through a fit that it didn't exactly meet the way they had envisioned it in their minds. RPGs inherently have a story associated with them. It is almost a given that usually you start with very little and gaining more and more resources as the game progresses. The only thing BW did differently is put numbers on it.

BioWare didn't give adequate story reasons that went along with the power requirements and the things that earned you power and influence are not things that would have realistically done so. All the power requirements ended up doing was forcing people who don't like the side quests to do over 100 of them in order to progress the plot.

 

I will just have to disagree with you that everything needs to be explicitly spelled out for me to know what is going on in the game.

Calm it down with the passive aggression and putting words in other people's mouths. Did I say "oh golly, I don't understand what's going on, someone please explain it to me?" Yeah, no. Explicitly spelling things out is exactly what the sidequests do (quite literally when it comes to the note based quests). You seem to have decided that anyone who disagrees with you is an idiot and that anyone who finds something poorly done, uninspired, etc..."just doesn't understand." Telling and not showing is just poor storytelling.

 

You talk about TW3 as though everything you do in that game has to do with the main story arch..

Not true.

 

I'd say most of what you do in that game has less to do with the main story arch that DA:I.

Not everything has to be connected to the main plot, but the main plot needs to be the reason I'm in an area (and TW3 did this). Sidequests can be done along the way.

 

I think the big problem people have saying "the side quests don't fit into the may story arch" is for one reason: people have been trained that the main parts of the main story arch must be linear rather than dynamic. With DA:I that changes things a great deal when knowing that you don't HAVE to do a completion of a story from beginning to end all in one go.

Um what? Do you mean people don't know they can do some of the main quests out of order or do you mean they don't know they don't have to finish the game? In any case, if you want a game where you can just bugger off and ignore the main plot forever and have there be no consequences then you can't also have a story about a growing breach in the sky that is spilling out demons, an ancient evil wizard that is destroying the world, and the player as the only one capable of stopping them. It makes no sense for you to be wandering way off course just to run around and do random pickle extractions.

 

When you say "special snowflake hand" cynically, you are basically going against the core premise of the main story arch. The "special snowflake hand" was likely came up with very early in the writing process for this game.

While I appreciate that BioWare tried to kind of lampshade this trope by having the chosen one/special snowflake status granted because of random chance, in the end it was the same as every other special snowflake story. You're still the only one capable of saving the world because of that hand and the random chance has no adverse affect on your character's social standing or power.

 

You might as well join the "just make DA:O 2" crowd. BW is looking to be a game changer when it comes to RPGs. The fact that people don't like the game because it isn't just like the previous games they have made is evidence of this.

Yes, because that's exactly what I've been saying "I dun liek it becuz it not DA:O" :rolleyes: In what way was BioWare "looking to be a game changer" when it came to DA:I? The story was cliche and not very well done, the companions seemed like a random assortment of people off the street rather than a team, the side quests were shallow and tacked on, the combat was watered down, there were fewer options for roleplay and fewer character types you could play (no one ruthless or evil for example). DA:I didn't feel like BioWare tried something innovative and fell short, it felt like they clearly overcorrected based on (their interpretation of) criticism of DA2, tried to capture Skyrim's sales numbers through a semi-open world (without knowing what people like about Skyrim) and played it way too safe with the story.

 

The reason I say you can't work with hypotheticals on a situation that has already occurred is not because it lacks creativity to think of those things, but because the industry is moving forward and as such, there is a framework that is constantly built upon previously used systems. BW has proven if nothing else that they do not go backwards, only forwards. They might use concepts used much earlier in gaming as a reference, but it is only a reference and not a direct copy. I see pretty much no one on this forum talking about Assassin's Creed games because its a game that has largely gone stale because Ubi keeps pumping out the same game over and over. Also, when it comes to practical application of concepts, it works very differently than theoretically. So while you can say "what if Sera was only romanceable by a male elf character" it begins to diverge into an area that if it were so, would change the game in such a way that Sera would no longer be the same character. The same concept applies to "what if.." wherever considering where a game needed to change previously, rather than sequentially. For that reason, it is best to take what we know about the current system in place and compound on that in a manner that is realistic and palatable rather than taking what we know of a system and going backwards with it so that we can apply that to a new system. The entire system would have to be replaced if you are working based on hypotheticals and that is just way too much work for the devs to accomplish. Ok, clearly you have no idea what I'm talking about. :huh: It's not about changing a specific already done quest, it's about thinking about how to make a more detailed and integrated quest in the future. I'm guessing you're not an artist because if you were, you'd be familiar with the concept of art critique. If I draw a picture of a dog and someone critiques the picture saying "the dog's legs are bent the wrong direction, it should be more like ___" it's meant to improve your knowledge and technique for the next picture. You can't say "well this picture is already done so your critique is irrelevant! :angry:" and you can't critique a picture that hasn't been drawn yet. You can give ideas on what to do in the future and that's what we're doing in this thread.

 

I am quoting you here to make a point. I made a comparison earlier in this thread saying how when the devs focus so heavily on cinematics as opposed to other means of getting the point across that it is the same difference between reading a book and watching TV. TV has its place, but if I want to use my imagination, I read a book, I don't watch TV. TV tells, reading a book imagines. I like to think of my video games as somewhere between reading a book and watching TV, so naturally I would want elements of both in it, preferably at the same time and place in the video game. You realize that books (for adults) have descriptions right?

 

Many people do not know how to use their imaginations and that's a real problem in today's world. You are speaking as someone with not as much imagination as myself when you say "not used to any believable degree and was horribly implemented." I share a different opinion. I think the game was made for those people who think like myself. I agree not as much was spelled out in DA:I, but there was enough context to understand why things made sense on a meta level.

There's that insulting passive aggression again :rolleyes: . Tell me, when you watch the Star Wars prequels do you believe Anakin and Padme as a couple in love? They tell you they're in love, they say that they feel things for each other all the time. Since they said it it must be well done right? No. I'm guessing you don't read many books since you don't seem to know much about creative writing.

 

We don't know why BW went with less shot-reverse-shot for sure. I'd argue it was art directing because its not that difficult to actually do shot-reverse-shot cinematics. What is difficult and often goes with that, are voiced dialog options and that is where it gets expensive over the long run.

We can make an educated guess that there was hardly any of the budget left when it came down to doing sidequests.

 

If you really can't stand the side quests that much, then it is true that you lack the intuitive grasp needed to imagine the way the world works in this game. I am sorry, but that is the truth.

I'm really wishing for a facepalm emoji right now...You think I lack imagination and "intuitive grasp" because I find the DA:I sidequests shallow and poorly done, I think you have a simple mind that is easily entertained. I'm sorry but that's the truth. The DA:I sidequests are the equivalent of a children's book where everything is told and not shown and where there is zero nuance, depth, or subtext. Everything is "the puppy had a ball, the ball was red, the puppy was happy." My niece loves that kind of story too, she's 3.

 

 

 I was not being passive agressive. (I had a reply, but it got erased and its not worth my time to write it up again.)



#359
Kabraxal

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I was not being passive agressive. (I had a reply, but it got erased and its not worth my time to write it up again.)

If you've noticed... A lot of Nefla's replies say little to back up the claims made, then immediate accusations flung around to try and dismiss poster's dismantling the points made with relative ease. Classic spin job.

And really, when you get to the constant show don't tell and children's book remarks, it's clear Nefla needs the game to be a blunt hammer... Just walking in the maps is showing history. Just paying attention reveals so much under the surface. So much of the lore is implication and skewed by the world's filters we view it through. Inquisition is layer upon layer upon layer... We see many event's through aftermath and not in a grand cutscene. Inquisition just happens to be a more subtle experience. That isn't for everyone and that's fine. Just wish people like Nefla could simply admit they prefer a more blunt and obvious style instead of the constant whining that the style Of DA is bad.

#360
UniformGreyColor

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If you've noticed... A lot of Nefla's replies say little to back up the claims made, then immediate accusations flung around to try and dismiss poster's dismantling the points made with relative ease. Classic spin job.

And really, when you get to the constant show don't tell and children's book remarks, it's clear Nefla needs the game to be a blunt hammer... Just walking in the maps is showing history. Just paying attention reveals so much under the surface. So much of the lore is implication and skewed by the world's filters we view it through. Inquisition is layer upon layer upon layer... We see many event's through aftermath and not in a grand cutscene. Inquisition just happens to be a more subtle experience. That isn't for everyone and that's fine. Just wish people like Nefla could simply admit they prefer a more blunt and obvious style instead of the constant whining that the style Of DA is bad.

 

I'm going to make a comparison and I doubt many people will even know what I'm talking about, but whatever. Everyone says Eminem is washed up and he's just making bland streamlined stuff now. The thing is, there is still a ton of depth in he metaphors, its just that it isn't emphasized the same way in paraverbal communication. Such is the difference between DA:I and previous titles. I'm a firm believer that artists get better as time goes on, not worse.



#361
Joseph Warrick

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You guys circlejerking around your superiority to Nefla and the depth and imagination of your metaphors is making me cringe so much my skull is creaking.

Though I agree it takes a ton of imagination and depth of thinking to feel the camps and the rifts and the requisitions as something other than filler. I myself prefer the shallow, obvious, childlike story told in Crestwood. You can keep finding the meaning of life in the leaves of an elfroot plant. You have fun with that.

In the only playthrough I was able to complete I decided to skip as many areas as I could because they burned me out. No storm coast, no shallow mire, no oasis, no hissing wastes, etc. If the answer, after enjoying all their other games, is that the fun in this game is metaphorical like Eminem and that I am an unimaginative shallow person who likes watching TV too much and should read more books, forgive me but I'm not convinced.
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#362
Addictress

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You guys circlejerking around your superiority to Nefla and the depth and imagination of your metaphors is making me cringe so much my skull is creaking.

Though I agree it takes a ton of imagination and depth of thinking to feel the camps and the rifts and the requisitions as something other than filler. I myself prefer the shallow, obvious, childlike story told in Crestwood. You can keep finding the meaning of life in the leaves of an elfroot plant. You have fun with that.

In the only playthrough I was able to complete I decided to skip as many areas as I could because they burned me out. No storm coast, no shallow mire, no oasis, no hissing wastes, etc. If the answer, after enjoying all their other games, is that the fun in this game is metaphorical like Eminem and that I am an unimaginative shallow person who likes watching TV too much and should read more books, forgive me but I'm not convinced.


:)

#363
UniformGreyColor

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You guys circlejerking around your superiority to Nefla and the depth and imagination of your metaphors is making me cringe so much my skull is creaking.

Though I agree it takes a ton of imagination and depth of thinking to feel the camps and the rifts and the requisitions as something other than filler. I myself prefer the shallow, obvious, childlike story told in Crestwood. You can keep finding the meaning of life in the leaves of an elfroot plant. You have fun with that.

In the only playthrough I was able to complete I decided to skip as many areas as I could because they burned me out. No storm coast, no shallow mire, no oasis, no hissing wastes, etc. If the answer, after enjoying all their other games, is that the fun in this game is metaphorical like Eminem and that I am an unimaginative shallow person who likes watching TV too much and should read more books, forgive me but I'm not convinced.

 

Yup, I'm the worst offender here and haven't said anything reasonable.



#364
Bayonet Hipshot

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There are many ways to make RPG quests. One such quest involves a settlement that needs your help. Here, I'll mark it on your map.



#365
UniformGreyColor

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There are many ways to make RPG quests. One such quest involves a settlement that needs your help. Here, I'll mark it on your map.

 

key words being "RPG" "settlement" and "here, I'll mark it on your map". Not really sure what exactly was intended by this though

 

I know you're relating to FO4,but why?



#366
hoechlbear

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If you've noticed... A lot of Nefla's replies say little to back up the claims made, then immediate accusations flung around to try and dismiss poster's dismantling the points made with relative ease. Classic spin job.

 

Oh, this is great coming from you. People present you with examples all the time that make your arguments look weak, but you don't reply to those. You ignore it and then come back later and say the same things all over again you said a few pages back. We, on the other hand, are backing up the claims just fine, by either giving examples (that you don't even try to counter with other examples in your favor), or by giving our opinions (which is what we're all doing here!) but you only jump in when it's convenient for you, and act all high and mighty while dismissing everything we said in this thread so far, because you're obviously right and everyone else is wrong.

 

 

Just walking in the maps is showing history. Just paying attention reveals so much under the surface. So much of the lore is implication and skewed by the world's filters we view it through. Inquisition is layer upon layer upon layer... We see many event's through aftermath and not in a grand cutscene. Inquisition just happens to be a more subtle experience. That isn't for everyone and that's fine. Just wish people like Nefla could simply admit they prefer a more blunt and obvious style instead of the constant whining that the style Of DA is bad.

 

Paying attention to what, exactly? The trees? The wind? The sand? I'm sorry, this is all very poetic but I'm not sure how this has anything to do with the fact that DAI's is filled with fetch quests. They are shallow and as bare-bones as they can be. But by all means, please do explain since I'm obviously one of the stupid people that didn't manage to see and feel all the greatness of DAI's empty maps and the deepness of the fetch quests because I watch too much TV and can't use my imagination, or something along those lines.


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#367
Bayonet Hipshot

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key words being "RPG" "settlement" and "here, I'll mark it on your map". Not really sure what exactly was intended by this though

 

I know you're relating to FO4,but why?

 

Just for fun. On a serious note, Bethesda's side quests are as bad as Bioware's ones.
 



#368
vbibbi

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Can I just repeat, as I've said elsewhere, that I hate that oversimplified Keep choice? Okay, maybe that's a bit dramatic, but it's seriously not well thought-out. I wasn't a pragmatic recruiting judge. I wasn't a merciful one. I wasn't harsh. I was all three, depending on the situation! Isn't that the point of individual judgements? Because people do different things for different reasons?

 

Why isn't there at least a "Varied Sentences" option in the Keep for those of us who don't want to either recruit, release, or execute everyone?

Trivia: On my third playthrough, I forgot to do that quest before heading to Skyhold. Queue my surprise when I walked near the stables and my Inquisitor exclaimed: "The horses! I forgot about the Fereldan horses!" With a verbal self-facepalm.

 

And when I talked to Dennet after that, there was actually slightly different dialogue since we were at Skyhold now. I was actually impressed that they accounted for that variable.

 

*Gasp*

Spoiler

 

You'd take away the only romance I like, and the only voice I like?! You monster :crying: :P

 

Though to be fair, I don't think adding Cullen and Solas as romance options was the only thing Bioware did during that year. At least, I hope not! :lol:

Honestly, I really doubt the judgement flavor will be imported to DA4 regardless of the Inquisitor's role in the game. At best it will be the personality decider much like Hawke's tone import...didn't have noticeable variation in DAI.

 

About the horses, I don't know if it's a bug or what, but I always heard that line about "The horses! I forgot the horses!" in Skyhold, and as I said, I've always finished that quest before IYHSB. And this happened on both PS3 and PS4, so if it's a bug, it could be a PS specific bug.

 

On romances, like I said previously, I enjoyed the Cullen romance and my canon!Inquisitor is with him. It's not that I want his romance removed, it was picking the most easily measured resource to demonstrate how Bioware could restructure its project management. It's a moot point since it's not going to happen, and I hope hope hope that DA4 has better use of resources since they've now ported everything into the new engine and are only working with three platforms.

 

Lets be honest here, its nowhere near 99% of the time that the zones are disconnected from good solid content. There are zones like Storm Coast that is essential to getting Iron Bull, fighting a dragon, dealing with darkspawn, finding Grey Warden stuff, dealing with Red Templars ect. all stuff worth doing. I'd argue getting Iron Bull and dealing with the Red Templars tie into the main quest, but maybe that's just me.

 

3. There is enough explanation for the war between the Templars and Mages, we don't need more reasons to get the point across that there is a war going on there. The Hinterlands is ripe with it. We don't need more extrapolated story on the war between the Templars and Mages it is perfectly fine the way it is.

 

4. The fact that so many people have problems with the power system and fetch quests is because they just don't realize that we are basically starting with very little influence. When the story starts, and when we go to the Hinterlands for the first time, all the Herald is is someone who can close Fade Rifts, and before that, they were a prisoner. They had NO qualifications as a mean to lead that was within the context of the story at that point in time. 

 

5. The Hinterlands works on many different levels for RP reasons and it is where you will choose to see how your character will play out. If you played confused Herald, it makes complete sense on how the herald is basically doing the small things to figure out what to do next. This also works with stoic herald in that he is doing it to prove himself and it works for a lot of different ways you choose to RP your herald.

 

For me, tying in to the main quest means something is either mandatory to complete the game, or it has an impact on the main quest based on whether it was done or not and how it was done. Every companion in this game is optional except for the default starting ones. Varric isn't even mandatory except for gameplay reasons of having a rogue companion.

 

I don't think it's a great example, but at least our choice between IHW and CotJ affects the later game by changing the troops in IYHSB and having more of one type of enemy over another in the zones. None of the side quests have that, whether it's stopping the red templars in the Storm Coast, in EdL, or their alliance with the Freemen in EG and EP.

 

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the Arbor Wilds' only variation is with Samon/Calpernia, Wardens being present or not if we exiled them, and whether we have Barris and templars helping or mages. Those are all from main quests.

 

Fighting dragons is interesting content, but it's not important. The dragon battles are actually treated like a collection quest, since there's a counter in the collection journal section for how many we kill. Haakon, Cory's dragon, and Mythal's Guardian are the only plot relevant dragons in the game. Everything else is just enjoyable side content.

 

Also on the Storm Coast, it's not like IB is specifically tied to that location. He and the Chargers could have been defending Crestwood against the undead and we recruit them there. Or if we want to keep them fighting Venatori, the Hissing Wastes where they're looking into why the Vints are there.

 

The Mage/Templar war is explained well enough, because I played DA2 and read Asunder. I don't know how it presents to someone who hadn't. I have issues with how the conflict was ended, swept under the rug as the warring sides became part of the Inquisition and Cory's army. So what about all of the mages and templars not in Ferelden or Orlais? We have some flavor text on the war table, but it doesn't relate to how the international war was ended because of the forces in two countries were disbanded.

 

The fact that so many people have an issue with the power and influence system might mean that they understood it and didn't like it or think it made sense. Just because someone disagrees with your opinions doesn't make them stupid or wrong. The fact that so many people have an issue means that it's significant enough for Bioware to take a look at the system and try to understand why so many people have an issue.

 

The Hinterlands offer many tasks to demonstrate the increase in influence, okay. But the roleplaying is all in your head, as you point out. And as Nefla points out, I would rather be able to have options within the game to roleplay instead of having to headcanon everything. There's nothing wrong with headcanon, but players shouldn't have to rely on it to complete their gaming experience. That's the developer's job to make the experience complete. Most of the time, headcanon comes across as when someone is unsatisfied with the information presented in game and need to find a way to justify it or flesh it out, or in order to contradict in game evidence in order to fit their personal canon.

 

I'm going to make a comparison and I doubt many people will even know what I'm talking about, but whatever. Everyone says Eminem is washed up and he's just making bland streamlined stuff now. The thing is, there is still a ton of depth in he metaphors, its just that it isn't emphasized the same way in paraverbal communication. Such is the difference between DA:I and previous titles. I'm a firm believer that artists get better as time goes on, not worse.

If this were an actual comparison, you would then show specific examples within DAI against DAO or DA2 instead of making broad statements that have no context. And you didn't even provide any examples of the deep metaphors in Eminem's work. This isn't a comparison, it's a general opinion that has no supporting evidence. You even say that many people probably won't know the reference, so wouldn't it be logical to provide examples to help people understand?

 

 

I ask again, why would doing these "pickle extraction" quests gain us power or influence? Sure finding people's lost rings, putting flowers on graves, etc...might make the local villagers like you and it would be believable if you got a discount in the local village shop but it wouldn't get you an invitation to the Empress' ball. None of that stuff would have any effect on whether we could storm Adamant fortress or not or go to the Arbor wilds. None of those power grinding quests involved recruiting legions of soldiers (at most you get 1 at a time) none of the quests involve diplomacy and alliances with powerful people who could open the right doors. Again I ask you: why would I need "power" to talk to a revered mother who is on a soap box in the middle of the town square?

 

It would have been hilarious if Celene had been introduced to us in the WP as the "finder of 40 rings" and she congratulated our persistence. :lol:

 

But yeah, the power system was not implemented well, as you point out. There should have been checkpoints, so that we had to show how the Inquisition was increasing its resources, not just its reputation. Even if we're not doing the flowers on graves or lost rings, if we get the majority of our power through closing rifts, establishing camps, exploring landmarks, then realistically we have not done anything to increase the resources of the Inquisition. Yes we've made the region safer, and maybe people are headcanoning that establishing camps means that we're recruiting people, but that doesn't make sense in any zone outside of the Hinterlands and Crestwood, as every other zone is either abandoned (HW, FM, WA, SC except for the Hessarian Blades) or in a war zone where there are no possible recruits (EdL, EP, EG). Plus, aren't the agents supposed to represent the troops we're recruiting? So the camps show the spread of our reach rather than our increasing ranks.

 

 

Ah so you're one of those "it's good because I can make up everything in my head" people. Almost none of the quests give you multiple dialogue options or choices or different ways to resolve the quest that would let you define your character. Your headcanon is not supported or reinforced within the actual game any more than if I decided I wanted to play an inquisitor who was a half-dragon shapeshifter. I could tell myself anything I wanted "oh she doesn't kill dragons because she's half dragon" and so on but it's not reinforced or supported.

 

omg you roleplay this too?!


  • Nefla et BansheeOwnage aiment ceci

#369
robertthebard

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You guys circlejerking around your superiority to Nefla and the depth and imagination of your metaphors is making me cringe so much my skull is creaking.

Though I agree it takes a ton of imagination and depth of thinking to feel the camps and the rifts and the requisitions as something other than filler. I myself prefer the shallow, obvious, childlike story told in Crestwood. You can keep finding the meaning of life in the leaves of an elfroot plant. You have fun with that.


Congratulations for demonstrating exactly what that poster was talking about. Rifts are not "side" content, but are tied to main plot. I've mentioned several times that people are missing context, let alone subtext, and then going on to criticize writing. This quote proves my point. So thanks for that.

In the only playthrough I was able to complete I decided to skip as many areas as I could because they burned me out. No storm coast, no shallow mire, no oasis, no hissing wastes, etc. If the answer, after enjoying all their other games, is that the fun in this game is metaphorical like Eminem and that I am an unimaginative shallow person who likes watching TV too much and should read more books, forgive me but I'm not convinced.


Welcome to my world, when people use TW as a comparison to this game. I didn't finish either of the first two entries, and so I didn't even bother with the third. It's interesting to note that you didn't even bother to recruit Iron Bull. No Storm Coast means no Iron Bull, or is it more a case of "I'm going to put a lot of stuff on this post to give it credibility" and move on? The glaring issue I have with this quote, however, is simply this: You have a glowing green mark on your hand that allows you to close rifts. This glowing green mark is the only reason you're not dead, but closing rifts, the thing that actually gets you included in the Inner Circle in the first place is side content. The Breach is a big rift, it's the primary focus of the beginning of the game, and a focus of the end of the game, but it's all just side content. Perhaps the issue wasn't the game after all?

#370
UniformGreyColor

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...

...

 

I don't think it's a great example, but at least our choice between IHW and CotJ affects the later game by changing the troops in IYHSB and having more of one type of enemy over another in the zones. None of the side quests have that, whether it's stopping the red templars in the Storm Coast, in EdL, or their alliance with the Freemen in EG and EP.

 

It should be understood why we are fighting the red templars. Its was explained well enough.

 

 

 

...

Fighting dragons is interesting content, but it's not important. The dragon battles are actually treated like a collection quest, since there's a counter in the collection journal section for how many we kill. Haakon, Cory's dragon, and Mythal's Guardian are the only plot relevant dragons in the game. Everything else is just enjoyable side content.

 

 

Do you have a problem with dragons being in the game? Would you rather them be in the game or cut out of future games of the series?

 

 

Also on the Storm Coast, it's not like IB is specifically tied to that location. He and the Chargers could have been defending Crestwood against the undead and we recruit them there. Or if we want to keep them fighting Venatori, the Hissing Wastes where they're looking into why the Vints are there.

 

 

At the point in the game that we decide to go to Storm Coast (whenever that is actually) it makes sense that he is there because it was told to you by Krem that that is where he is, so there is a clear reason why he is there. It makes sense on a story level that he is there as well. It doesn't matter when you go to storm coast and recruit IB because if you do it at the beginning, the Vents are not known to be a major threat at that time in the game, so it works because it is not directly related to what is going on in the story currently and is simply meant for flavor. Same goes for if you can recruit IB after it is discovered the Vents are a major threat. It gives a different feel depending on when you choose to recruit IB and that is just good writing. The game is full of context like that and that is something that adds to reply value. Much of it even has to do with side quests and how it fits into the main story arch.

 

 

The Mage/Templar war is explained well enough, because I played DA2 and read Asunder. I don't know how it presents to someone who hadn't. I have issues with how the conflict was ended, swept under the rug as the warring sides became part of the Inquisition and Cory's army. So what about all of the mages and templars not in Ferelden or Orlais? We have some flavor text on the war table, but it doesn't relate to how the international war was ended because of the forces in two countries were disbanded.

 

 

First off, who says its supposed to end the international feud between Templars and Mages? I never finished DA2 and never read Asunder and still there was plenty of context for me to understand what was going on there. It was foreshadowing in DA:O and Uldred in the circle tower. The thing is, its the same story through and through. You are left with a catch 22 in the choice between IHW and CotJ. Honestly, its odd that this is being criticized since so often people complain that they want choices that matter and then when they get that, it isn't good enough for them.

 

 

The fact that so many people have an issue with the power and influence system might mean that they understood it and didn't like it or think it made sense. Just because someone disagrees with your opinions doesn't make them stupid or wrong. The fact that so many people have an issue means that it's significant enough for Bioware to take a look at the system and try to understand why so many people have an issue.

 

 

But it did make sense. I can't help it if people can't see the context that is there. Also, I did not call anyone stupid and I don't think anyone in this thread is stupid. I do feel that there is plenty of context available that is just not quite to everyone's liking, however. And its still not clear why exactly people had a difficult time seeing the context. So far all its been is "the quests are shallow" without explaining in any way why that is.

 

 

The Hinterlands offer many tasks to demonstrate the increase in influence, okay. But the roleplaying is all in your head, as you point out. And as Nefla points out, I would rather be able to have options within the game to roleplay instead of having to headcanon everything. There's nothing wrong with headcanon, but players shouldn't have to rely on it to complete their gaming experience. That's the developer's job to make the experience complete. Most of the time, headcanon comes across as when someone is unsatisfied with the information presented in game and need to find a way to justify it or flesh it out, or in order to contradict in game evidence in order to fit their personal canon.

 

 

RPing pretty much requires headcanoning by your definition to one degree or another. If playing a character is simply "I like this dialog option over this one so I'm going with that" then that doesn't leave anything to the imagination of creating a character.

 

 

If this were an actual comparison, you would then show specific examples within DAI against DAO or DA2 instead of making broad statements that have no context. And you didn't even provide any examples of the deep metaphors in Eminem's work. This isn't a comparison, it's a general opinion that has no supporting evidence. You even say that many people probably won't know the reference, so wouldn't it be logical to provide examples to help people understand?

 

 

I explained the big picture of what it was and how it works. I leave it to others to see for themselves whether the comparison I made has any merit or not. It will be better for people to think about it and come to that realization without me spelling everything out, because it will be much more of an Aha moment where as if I were to come up with specific examples, people can just say that is a matter of opinion and it kinda cheapens the effect.


  • Kabraxal aime ceci

#371
vbibbi

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 And its still not clear why exactly people had a difficult time seeing the context. So far all its been is "the quests are shallow" without explaining in any way why that is.

 

 

OH

 

 

MY

 

 

GOD

 

 

ARE

 

 

YOU

 

 

READING

 

 

NOTHING

 

 

IN

 

 

THIS

 

 

THREAD?

 

If you don't agree with any of the arguments, suggestions, or examples presented here that's fine. You are entitled to your opinion. But I cannot comprehend how you can claim there has been no explanations provided in this thread. Are you actually reading any responses or are you just skimming the first line and then responding?


  • Nefla, Mr Fixit, BansheeOwnage et 2 autres aiment ceci

#372
Kabraxal

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Oh, this is great coming from you. People present you with examples all the time that make your arguments look weak, but you don't reply to those. You ignore it and then come back later and say the same things all over again you said a few pages back. We, on the other hand, are backing up the claims just fine, by either giving examples (that you don't even try to counter with other examples in your favor), or by giving our opinions (which is what we're all doing here!) but you only jump in when it's convenient for you, and act all high and mighty while dismissing everything we said in this thread so far, because you're obviously right and everyone else is wrong.



Paying attention to what, exactly? The trees? The wind? The sand? I'm sorry, this is all very poetic but I'm not sure how this has anything to do with the fact that DAI's is filled with fetch quests. They are shallow and as bare-bones as they can be. But by all means, please do explain since I'm obviously one of the stupid people that didn't manage to see and feel all the greatness of DAI's empty maps and the deepness of the fetch quests because I watch too much TV and can't use my imagination, or something along those lines.

And yet I have made points and brought up examples... That people like you summarily dismiss to continue your childish rantings. According to you, companion quests don't count, judgements don't count, and actual intricate world design is "just trees"... There is a lot of substantial side content, much of which focuses on the companions. And yet we still get more than that with actual variety and integration of lore and art design to create something that many people are missing for whatever reason.

You can keep trying the dismissal route, but all your criticisms boil down to you not liking that the companions were the main focus of side content. You want the focus in another area. You don't like that the art design creates an atmosphere without the need of a person explaining everything to you. And that is fine. DA is not the game for your stylistic preferences. But for others, the melding of the atmospheric design, companion interaction and content, and better RP options is more than welcome. Stop claiming DA is factually lesser or worse in side content... It just targets a different subsect of gamers and focuses on a certain area of side content. That has been the issue the whole time: the inability of some to accept that what they want the focus on is not what others want the focus on. Doesn't help when the main battle cry is over cutscenes...

Seriously, this is the exact same crap that plagues Fallout... Fallout, Dragon Age, and The Witcher are three different RPGs that focus on different areas. None are better objectively. It all depends on what you want in your RPG.

#373
UniformGreyColor

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OH

 

 

MY

 

 

GOD

 

 

ARE

 

 

YOU

 

 

READING

 

 

NOTHING

 

 

IN

 

 

THIS

 

 

THREAD?

 

If you don't agree with any of the arguments, suggestions, or examples presented here that's fine. You are entitled to your opinion. But I cannot comprehend how you can claim there has been no explanations provided in this thread. Are you actually reading any responses or are you just skimming the first line and then responding?

 

Is there a reason why you chose to link all those posts as opposed to address my points directly? I am not skimming anything. I address what comes up when it comes up.



#374
vbibbi

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Is there a reason why you chose to link all those posts as opposed to address my points directly? I am not skimming anything. I address what comes up when it comes up.

You claimed that no one has presented any explanations as to why we think the quests are shallow. I just provided you ten links to posts that have provided explanations. I am not required to copy and past everything from those posts for you. You' made the claim that no explanations have been provided, I refuted that claim.


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#375
AlanC9

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Oh, those were links?

Hmm... interesting presentation, but I'm not sure it's all that effective. I suppose one could respond with a bunch of YES I DID AND HERE'S WHAT I SAID links.