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Article on the nature of modern RPG side quests


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#401
BansheeOwnage

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The biggest reason why I don't just go "sure, you're completely correct" is because it would mean going back to a system that is not going to come back. I disagree because it sets a bad president if I do agree that so many people fall into in that they want BW to go back to the way things were done before and I cannot accept that as a realistic solution.

Wait, what? Why can't an old system come back? I've seen it happen in games before. And why shouldn't an old system return? If it was a good system, and a later system was inferior, by all means you should bring the old one back! How does it set a bad precedent? I don't understand this argument.


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#402
UniformGreyColor

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Wait, what? Why can't an old system come back? I've seen it happen in games before. And why shouldn't an old system return? If it was a good system, and a later system was inferior, by all means you should bring the old one back! How does it set a back precedent? I don't understand this argument.

 

K, so I'm going to take painting pictures as an example. When an artist paints a picture and it is finished, it doesn't matter how well they thought they did on that picture. The fact of the matter is that the same artist is never going to try and paint the exact same thing again on another canvas. Its the same for video game developers. So for example in painting a picture, while the artist is admiring his or her work, the artist is likely to say to themselves "I like how I did this in the painting, I want to do something like that again." But the artist is not going to make the exact same painting even though they may use some similar techniques that they used previously. With developers, it completely takes away artistic expression to implement the exact same things (to varying degrees) that was used in previous games. Also, while a painting artist may work on similar things from one painting to another, the artist is going to be a better painter as they do more and more paintings. So they are not going to even want to make the same kinds of things that they made a relatively long time ago. The same is true with game dev teams, they learn and since its an evolving industry they can't justify copying so much from games long past because it will be seen by the industry as stale and unimaginative.



#403
UniformGreyColor

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Wait, what? Why can't an old system come back? I've seen it happen in games before. And why shouldn't an old system return? If it was a good system, and a later system was inferior, by all means you should bring the old one back! How does it set a back precedent? I don't understand this argument.

 

Also, I am talking mostly about bringing back things from DA:O, not really DA:I. Its reasonable enough that they might use a decent amount from DA:I, but the further you go back in the same series the less likely they are to bring back the same exact system.



#404
robertthebard

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Oh, those were links?

Hmm... interesting presentation, but I'm not sure it's all that effective. I suppose one could respond with a bunch of YES I DID AND HERE'S WHAT I SAID links.


It's been what I've had to do repeatedly. Only instead of links, I just type it all out, again. I'm in the process of reinstalling NWN, I hadn't done it since my HDD crashed a few weeks back. I'm going to go in and make a cutscene so that it's visual, maybe it'll sink in.
 
 

Yeah, that's sort of why I'm worried about it. I don't want the Inquisitor to have a personality decider anyway, because it would never do them justice, but I think having "Recruiting/Merciful/Harsh" would be even worse than Hawke's options. I feel like it might be used to make RP decisions for me, which would suck.
 
Oh, that's odd. It's probably a bug, then. In my other playthroughs where I recruited Dennet before IYHSB, that line never fired for me.
 
I know, I hoped my response would come across as joking ^_^ I agree that DA4 should definitely have better use of resources since they should know the engine and have so many assets from DA:I they can reuse.
 
Rifts are definitely side-content. Do you see them listed as main quests? No, because you can do none of them and finish the game with no differences (although apparently your Inquisitor would be very busy between the end of the game and Trespasser).
 
The only rift that even has an effect on anything is the one in Crestwood, and the Crestwood questline is indeed side-content. That's one out of... 70+ rifts? I'd have definitely preferred if they were more rare, more intimidating, and more impactful.


While we can skip all the rifts we want, the mechanism for closing, and opening, said rifts is the only reason your character survives the Enclave. If, as you claim, and the wagon circlers agree, then there should be no issue on these forums about losing the anchor at the end of Tresspasser. Hint: It was, and maybe still is a "Big Thing". Although, to be honest here, I do see a rift in the main quest line: The Breach is another rift. But hey, it's your world, we're all just figments.

In fact, given all the hate for feeding refugees, shouldn't ya'll be out closing every rift you can find to justify being the Herald of anything? A couple of my toons were the Herald of the Inquisition, because they absolutely didn't believe that they were Andraste's Herald. So the message I'm sending the people of Thedas is: I can close the rifts, I'm the only one that can, but because they're not listed in the critical path of my quest log(great RP there, eh?), I'm not going to be bothered with them.

#405
robertthebard

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K, so I'm going to take painting pictures as an example. When an artist paints a picture and it is finished, it doesn't matter how well they thought they did on that picture. The fact of the matter is that the same artist is never going to try and paint the exact same thing again on another canvas. Its the same for video game developers. So for example in painting a picture, while the artist is admiring his or her work, the artist is likely to say to themselves "I like how I did this in the painting, I want to do something like that again." But the artist is not going to make the exact same painting even though they may use some similar techniques that they used previously. With developers, it completely takes away artistic expression to implement the exact same things (to varying degrees) that was used in previous games. Also, while a painting artist may work on similar things from one painting to another, the artist is going to be a better painter as they do more and more paintings. So they are not going to even want to make the same kinds of things that they made a relatively long time ago. The same is true with game dev teams, they learn and since its an evolving industry they can't justify copying so much from games long past because it will be seen by the industry as stale and unimaginative.


This is only somewhat true for game developers. If they find a system that is "wildly popular", they're going to stick with it until it becomes cliché, as with Assassin's Creed. Different weapons, different scenery, but the same basic mechanics that they've used since the first. Ironically, they get hammered about that every bit as much as BW gets hammered for changing each of the DA games.

#406
UniformGreyColor

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This is only somewhat true for game developers. If they find a system that is "wildly popular", they're going to stick with it until it becomes cliché, as with Assassin's Creed. Different weapons, different scenery, but the same basic mechanics that they've used since the first. Ironically, they get hammered about that every bit as much as BW gets hammered for changing each of the DA games.

 

yeah, that's weird, well, not really. People like to complain about how things aren't perfect. As the saying goes everyone's a critic.



#407
Addictress

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Companions' quests don't take up the whole game. There's about 4 per companion, where one is where you recruit them (those who need to be recruited), one is a fetch quest, one is tied to the romance, and then you have ONE (or two, in some rare cases like Cassandra) that is the actual personal quest. If you go to youtube to watch these quests, they can be done in about 15 minutes. So stop talking about the companions' quests like they are something out of this world. We always had those in previous DA games, we always had abundant companion interaction so this is not exclusive to DAI and shouldn't be used as an excuse for the game's failures.

When it comes to your BS claim that the game is NOT filled with mostly shallow quests, then let me refresh your memory.

I found a post of mine on another thread of about a year ago where we were discussing sidequests as well. People were saying DAI has little fetch quests, so I presented some examples to those people. This is only on the Hinterlands, by the way. I chose that map because it's the first one you visit. But if I do this for the other maps, it will be exactly the same thing:

A Common Treatment - You have to fetch some herbs for the healer.
Agrarian Apostate - You go fetch a ring and kill some templars.
Blood Brothers - You find a note on a corpse, go to spot X and retrieve an object from another corpse.
Failure to Deliver - You find a note, go to the river to collect the package.
Hinterland Who's Who - You find a letter and travel to the other edge of the map to put the letter on the mail box.
My Lover's Phylactery - You find a note, and return a phylactery to a woman.
Letter from a Lover - You find a note and have to bring felandaris to some statue.
Safeguards Against Looters - You find a note and go to spot Y to retrieve some objects.
Farmland Security - You claim spots all over the map.
In the Elements - You claim spots all over the map. [x2]
Flowers for Senna - You put some flowers on a grave.
Shallow Breaths - You have to go get a potion.
Open a Vein - You find a note and go to a cave. And that's it..?
Where the Druffalo Roam - You have to go fetch the druffalo and herd him back.

And then we have the kill quests, which are exactly the same as fetch quests but instead of getting an object in order to complete the quest, you have to kill things.

Apostates in Witchwood - You kill some mages.
Templars to the West - You kill some templars.
Deep Trouble - You kill some carta members.
East Road Bandits - You kill some bandits.
The Mercenary Fortress - You kill some mercenaries.
Hunger Pangs - You kill some rams.
Bergrit's Claws - You kill some bears.
Trouble with Wolves - You kill some wolves.
Conscientious Objector - you find a note, go to a house and kill a demon.
Playing with Fire - You find a note and go to a grave to summon a corpse you have to kill.
Return Policy - You find a note and to the other edge of the map to kill a demon.
Stone Dreams - You find a note and go to a cave and kill a mage and some demons.

Just notice how many times I wrote "you find a note". The Hinterlands has about 40 sidequests (not counting the filler ones, like shards, camps, rifts and requisitions) and at least 26 of those are fetch/kill/find a note quests. That's more than half, and it's only in the Hinterlands. Out of those 26 quests there isn't a single one where you get a small cutscene, where you get dialogue options and truly interact with the NPCs (most have zero NPC interaction) besides of the generic "what do you want?" and "it's done. Bye", where you get multiple choices and different ways to complete that quest and multiple outcomes that can also have consequences. (See what I did there? My "battle cry" isn't just the lack of cutscenes) So yes, they are shallow. Meaning of shallow: "of little depth". I don't see any depth in a quest where you read a note and go fetch/kill something on the other side of the map and that's it.


THANK YOU


Watching this thread brings me such delight while I watch my mom die. Thanks guys. Brightens my day

#408
Nefla

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Well, that's why we are here, sharing our thoughts hoping that Bioware will listen. Obviously what's done is done. DAI won't change and no one is expecting that. We are here because we are fans of the franchise, some of us even enjoyed DAI, but felt like the side content was absolutely terrible. We just want a more balanced game (or at least I do) where certain content doesn't get the short end of the stick just because they focused all of their attention and resources in other things.

I definitely feel like BioWare focused most of its' time and attention on

 

1) Starting over on a new engine and having to learn to use it and do things that hadn't been done with that engine before as well as make all new assets

2) Improved graphics

3) Crafting all those semi-open world zones visually

4) New combat system

5) New systems such as mounts, crafting, and the war table

 

I feel like because of this even the main plot was neglected. While it definitely had a few great parts to it, it was short and IMO pretty lackluster for the most part. If the main plot got that kind of treatment, the side quests never stood much of a chance of being more than simple fluff added to fill the big empty maps.


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#409
vbibbi

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THANK YOU
Watching this thread brings me such delight while I watch my mom die. Thanks guys. Brightens my day


I'm really sorry to hear that. My thoughts are with you.
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#410
vbibbi

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I definitely feel like BioWare focused most of its' time and attention on

1) Starting over on a new engine and having to learn to use it and do things that hadn't been done with that engine before as well as make all new assets
2) Improved graphics
3) Crafting all those semi-open world zones visually
4) New combat system
5) New systems such as mounts, crafting, and the war table

I feel like because of this even the main plot was neglected. While it definitely had great parts to it, it was short and IMO pretty lackluster. If the main plot got that kind of treatment, the side quests never stood much of a chance of being more than simple fluff added to fill the big empty maps.

Yes, especially since the devs had been excitedly reported on these cool features the game was going to have, which ended up being cut. I'm not discussing the pre alpha demo footage, I'm talking about the devs in a public and official capacity telling fans about customizable keeps to capture, troop commanding, limited resources on maps and changing wildlife based on how many creatures we killed. There was a lot of stuff advertised which never made it in, and I think it's because Bioware bit off more than they could chew and didn't realize it for a long time.


ETA to be fair, they also did implement multiple race choices when that wasn't going to be an option, multiple romances, two sound sets for each gender, and customized armor designs for the PC and companions. But this also emphasizes the direction the games are going in: visuals over content.
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#411
Nefla

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Yes, especially since the devs had been excitedly reported on these cool features the game was going to have, which ended up being cut. I'm not discussing the pre alpha demo footage, I'm talking about the devs in a public and official capacity telling fans about customizable keeps to capture, troop commanding, limited resources on maps and changing wildlife based on how many creatures we killed. There was a lot of stuff advertised which never made it in, and I think it's because Bioware bit off more than they could chew and didn't realize it for a long time.


ETA to be fair, they also did implement multiple race choices when that wasn't going to be an option, multiple romances, two sound sets for each gender, and customized armor designs for the PC and companions. But this also emphasizes the direction the games are going in: visuals over content.

I hope now that they have a lot of the systems and assets nailed down they can focus more heavily on the main plot and sidequests for the next game. I hope they don't decide that everyone was totally cool with (or in the case of some in this thread, seemingly over-the-moon in love with) mostly fluff quests so there's no need to branch out when making side quests for DA4 :(


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#412
JWvonGoethe

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DA:I does have a lot of insubstantial side quests, but their purpose is more to facilitate and encourage exploration. In that capacity they do their job well and are designed with a lot of thought.

Bear in mind that in DA2 there were a load of side quests, but the main quests were few and far between and they were by and large pretty short. They also reused areas that were used in side quests. In DA:I the main quests are much more substantial. Most of them have their own areas associated with them, and they feature a lot of peripheral cutscenes that take place in Skyhold.

I'm pretty sure both games have a similar amount of cutscenes, and it's worth mentioning that DA:I's are much more sophisticated. Here's a link to all of Inquisition's main cutscenes -

- the video is six hours long. Bear in mind that it features 20-30 minutes of exploration, but it also doesn't include everything - it leaves out Champions of the Just (in favour of In Hushed Whispers), a lot of companion scenes, including personal quests, romance scenes and low approval scenes - this additional content adds up a lot. To illustrate, Iron Bull's romance scenes last 10 minutes, and there are 8 romances, so that's at least another hour of romance cutscenes.

DA:I is just as meaty as DA2 in terms of cinematics and story, but it also has 100+ hours of exploration in addition to the core story content. I'm doing a bare bones playthrough right now where I just stick to the main quests and companion stuff, and after 20 hours I started to get pretty overwhelmed by the amount of cutscenes. I had to take a break and do some exploration for a few hours. I'm 45 hours in and nearly finished, but I didn't recruit a couple of the companions and I left out a few companion quests. By comparison, my quick playthroughs of DA:O and DA2 tend to last about 35 hours.

I think the problem with Inquisition is that if you focus on exploration then the story becomes too thinly spread. It's not that the story content isn't there, it's that it's a much larger game than its predecessors but it doesn't increase the amount of story content accordingly. Both DA:I and DA2 feature about the same amount of story content as DA:O (and in DA:O you don't have a voice actor, so it's less resource intensive. Nor are the cutscenes anywhere near as consistently high quality as in DA:I).

So I would say the problem isn't lack of meaningful story content; it's that the game is making do with the same amount of story content as always, but that same amount of content is struggling to accommodate a much larger game world. 15-20 hours of story spread over a 50-60 hour game feels substantial (as in the case of DA2 and DA:O). But that 15-20 hours spread over 150+ hours starts to feel very lightweight.

So for me, it's an issue of balance rather than the actual amount of content. But I'm happy having 100+ hours of exploration as a freebie in addition to the main story content, since it's not an either/or between story and exploration. The level designers can't just suddenly learn how to make cinematics. They are two completely different jobs so it's difficult to just say you want to get rid of three exploration areas in exchange for another main quest. It just doesn't quite work that way.
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#413
vbibbi

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I hope now that they have a lot of the systems and assets nailed down they can focus more heavily on the main plot and sidequests for the next game. I hope they don't decide that everyone was totally cool with (or in the case of some in this thread, seemingly over-the-moon in love with) mostly fluff quests so there's no need to branch out when making side quests for DA4 :(


I do think they understood that a lot of people weren't thrilled with side content. The thing I would guess won't be changed despite feedback are the limited abilities and stat increases based on equipment and passive abilities. Those issues are tied to matching multiplayer gameplay limitations, and apparently it was too much work to have a separate combat system for single player and multiplayer, despite constant assurances that MP wouldn't affect SP. content wise it didn't, but mechanics wise it sure did.
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#414
Nefla

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I do think they understood that a lot of people weren't thrilled with side content. The thing I would guess won't be changed despite feedback are the limited abilities and stat increases based on equipment and passive abilities. Those issues are tied to matching multiplayer gameplay limitations, and apparently it was too much work to have a separate combat system for single player and multiplayer, despite constant assurances that MP wouldn't affect SP. content wise it didn't, but mechanics wise it sure did.

D: I always wondered the reason for those restrictions! It especially sucks since I have zero interest in their multiplayer add-ons :crying:



#415
vbibbi

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DA:I does have a lot of insubstantial side quests, but their purpose is more to facilitate and encourage exploration. In that capacity they do their job well and are designed with a lot of thought.Bear in mind that in DA2 there were a load of side quests, but the main quests were few and far between and they were by and large pretty short. They also reused areas that were used in side quests. In DA:I the main quests are much more substantial. Most of them have their own areas associated with them, and they feature a lot of peripheral cutscenes that take place in Skyhold.I'm pretty sure both games have a similar amount of cutscenes, and it's worth mentioning that DA:I's are much more sophisticated. Here's a link to all of Inquisition's main cutscenes - https://www.youtube....?v=XI1RSlEJdRY- the video is six hours long. Bear in mind that it features 20-30 minutes of exploration, but it also doesn't include everything - it leaves out Champions of the Just (in favour of In Hushed Whispers), a lot of companion scenes, including personal quests, romance scenes and low approval scenes - this additional content adds up a lot. To illustrate, Iron Bull's romance scenes last 10 minutes, and there are 8 romances, so that's at least another hour of romance cutscenes.DA:I is just as meaty as DA2 in terms of cinematics and story, but it also has 100+ hours of exploration in addition to the core story content. I'm doing a bare bones playthrough right now where I just stick to the main quests and companion stuff, and after 20 hours I started to get pretty overwhelmed by the amount of cutscenes. I had to take a break and do some exploration for a few hours. I'm 45 hours in and nearly finished, but I didn't recruit a couple of the companions and I left out a few companion quests. By comparison, my quick playthroughs of DA:O and DA2 tend to last about 35 hours.I think the problem with Inquisition is that if you focus on exploration then the story becomes too thinly spread. It's not that the story content isn't there, it's that it's a much larger game than it's predecessors but it doesn't increase the amount of story content accordingly. Both DA:O and DA2 feature about the same amount of story content as DA:O (and in DA:O you don't have a voice actor, so it's less resource intensive. Nor are the cutscenes anywhere near as consistently high quality as in DA:I).So I would say the problem isn't lack of meaningful story content; it's that the game is making do with the same amount of story content as always, but that same amount of content is struggling to accommodate a much larger game world. 15-20 hours of story spread over a 50-60 hour games feels substantial (as in the case of DA2 and DA:O). But that 15-20 hours spread over 150+ hours starts to feel very lightweight.So for me, it's an issue of balance rather than the actual amount of content. But I'm happy having 100+ hours of exploration as a freebie in addition to the main story content, since it's not an either/or between story and exploration. The level designers can't just suddenly learn how to make cinematics. They are two completely different jobs so it's difficult to just say you want to get rid of three exploration areas in exchange for another main quest. It just doesn't quite work that way.


I agree for the most part and you make some really good points. The only real disagreement I have is one of personal preference, where I would rather just have a smaller game with a tighter narrative than a broader game with extraneous exploration zones. At least the exploration we received in DAI.

Also, I don't know how relevant it is to cite employee skills when determining what is possible and what isn't. Since Bioware is a large company that has shown collaboration across offices, we can't claim that changing the composition of workload (zone design versus cinematics or writing) is a major concern.
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#416
vbibbi

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D: I always wondered the reason for those restrictions! It especially sucks since I have zero interest in their multiplayer add-ons :crying:


It is not an official explanation but it seems to be the reason. It's not consoles versus PC, since both previous games had the skill wheel on consoles. The crafting system seems more suited to the micro transaction multiplayer model where it's easier to buy new crafting materials to unlock characters than to wait for loot drops. As is the stats tied to passive abilities. Possibly even the limitation of healing potions in favor of guard and barrier. What narrative reason would we not be able to carry more than 8-12 healing potions, plus one or two other bombs/tonics/poisons at a time? Sure, having hundreds of healing potions like DAO and DA2 is silly, but if we can carry multiple suits of armor and weapons, why can't we carry more than three types of bottles?

Multiplayer doesn't allow for pausing to go into inventory, so it only allows limited potions, and part of its challenge is making limited healing potions last for the entire mission.
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#417
Realmzmaster

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I agree for the most part and you make some really good points. The only real disagreement I have is one of personal preference, where I would rather just have a smaller game with a tighter narrative than a broader game with extraneous exploration zones. At least the exploration we received in DAI.

Also, I don't know how relevant it is to cite employee skills when determining what is possible and what isn't. Since Bioware is a large company that has shown collaboration across offices, we can't claim that changing the composition of workload (zone design versus cinematics or writing) is a major concern.

 

Whereas I prefer a game with exploration and non-linear in scope.. Smaller games with tighter narratives also tend to be more linear in nature. Employees in the gaming industry tend to specialize in different areas. So JWonGoethe is correct in stating that level designers would have to learn a different skill set using different tools to make cinematics and the same with cinenatic artists trying to make level designs. There are some who can work in several areas but most tend to specialize in one area.


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#418
Nefla

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Whereas I prefer a game with exploration and non-linear in scope.. Smaller games with tighter narratives also tend to be more linear in nature. Employees in the gaming industry tend to specialize in different areas. So JWonGoethe is correct in stating that level designers would have to learn a different skill set using different tools to make cinematics and the same with cinenatic artists trying to make level designs. There are some who can work in several areas but most tend to specialize in one area.

Honestly I wish BioWare would switch to a more linear story for the main plot. Their current model of being able to do main quests out of order is kind of neat but the tradeoff is that the main story events don't often flow from one to the next very well and are just sort of self-contained separate mini stories. This really limits the kind of story they can tell and to me it's just not worth it, especially when the level of certain areas encourages doing them in a certain order anyway. 


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#419
Sylvius the Mad

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Honestly I wish BioWare would switch to a more linear story for the main plot. Their current model of being able to do main quests out of order is kind of neat but the tradeoff is that the main story events don't often flow from one to the next very well and are just sort of self-contained separate mini stories. This really limits the kind of story they can tell...

Good. Telling a story shouldn't be their core objective.

Providing us with an environment in which to roleplay should, and a linear story just gets in the way of that.

#420
Addictress

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Good. Telling a story shouldn't be their core objective.

Providing us with an environment in which to roleplay should, and a linear story just gets in the way of that.

Wrong. Storytelling and role-playing must be equal. At least that is what Bioware's particular market demands.

Role-play in the midst of a weak story is an MMO. We don't want that.

I kindly suggest those who disagree to gtfo of trying to fundamentally alter Bioware games and play Black Desert or Destiny, which are great. I love them myself, too. They will welcome you with open arms.
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#421
Nefla

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Good. Telling a story shouldn't be their core objective.

Providing us with an environment in which to roleplay should, and a linear story just gets in the way of that.

You want a BioWare game without a story? :huh: I'm not saying there shouldn't be sidequests, even the kind with no dialogue options or choices involved (I know you guys love your headcanon). Or do you mean they should start making sandbox games or something like The Sims? I definitely wouldn't play either of those. Having a sandbox style game where you have to headcanon everything may be ideal for you but it would be awful for me. In my opinion a tighter and more fleshed out linear story would give more options to roleplay and would allow your actions to have a greater effect on the rest of the story. 

 

Anyway as much as I would love it if BioWare would make games that I love again, my expectations are quite low at this point. If they make the kind of game you describe I'd just not buy it and move on with my life. At that point I'd know there's no point in looking into BioWare's future games and hoping for something more.


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#422
JWvonGoethe

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Also, I don't know how relevant it is to cite employee skills when determining what is possible and what isn't. Since Bioware is a large company that has shown collaboration across offices, we can't claim that changing the composition of workload (zone design versus cinematics or writing) is a major concern.


I was pretty much just going by the info in this post by David Gaider:

"if you cut content that has no or little cinematics, you can cut to your heart's content and you will not free up any resources for the main storyline. You will have a lot of level designers twiddling their thumbs waiting for someone to work on whatever they've created."

I've got posts from a while back where I was saying that they should have cut back on the exploration zones to put in more story content, but that post changed my mind.
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#423
Mr Fixit

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I was pretty much just going by the info in this post by David Gaider:

"if you cut content that has no or little cinematics, you can cut to your heart's content and you will not free up any resources for the main storyline. You will have a lot of level designers twiddling their thumbs waiting for someone to work on whatever they've created."

I've got posts from a while back where I was saying that they should have cut back on the exploration zones to put in more story content, but that post changed my mind.

 

Well, then maybe BioWare should change the composition of their teams. Fewer level designers and more people who actually create story content and quests.


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#424
vbibbi

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Whereas I prefer a game with exploration and non-linear in scope.. Smaller games with tighter narratives also tend to be more linear in nature. Employees in the gaming industry tend to specialize in different areas. So JWonGoethe is correct in stating that level designers would have to learn a different skill set using different tools to make cinematics and the same with cinenatic artists trying to make level designs. There are some who can work in several areas but most tend to specialize in one area.

 

Good. Telling a story shouldn't be their core objective.

Providing us with an environment in which to roleplay should, and a linear story just gets in the way of that.

 

Then why are you guys playing Bioware games to begin with? They have always been about story over exploration. DAI is the first game of theirs that is not. Were you playing all previous games reluctantly, hoping that some day a game focused on exploration would emerge? Why not just play a Bethesda game or another exploration game instead? People in this thread have been playing Bioware games because they're story and character focused.

 

I get that open world exploration is the direction Bioware is moving in, but it's not like this was something we all knew about when we first picked up DAO or DA2 and enjoyed it and wanted more in the same style. People keep saying that we as consumers should have known that DAI would be more open world and shouldn't ask that the change in gameplay we don't like be changed. But that amounts to "so what if you liked the old games? this is the new direction and since I like the new direction better, stop complaining." And if we knew that the game was going to be more open world, should we just not have bought the game? Or bought the game but then pretended we liked everything because we knew it was going to have more exploration? I don't dislike exploration and it can be done well in a way that compliments the story, so I have no way of knowing if a game does that until I play it.

 

 

I was pretty much just going by the info in this post by David Gaider:

"if you cut content that has no or little cinematics, you can cut to your heart's content and you will not free up any resources for the main storyline. You will have a lot of level designers twiddling their thumbs waiting for someone to work on whatever they've created."

I've got posts from a while back where I was saying that they should have cut back on the exploration zones to put in more story content, but that post changed my mind.

I'm not an expert in game production so this is all just my personal opinion, but from what Gaider is saying, the staffing issue is more relevant once the game design has already started and HR has hired/reallocated staff members to their specialized roles. Since DA4 hasn't even been officially announced and Patrick Weekes is the only person working on it, Bioware can very easily decide how many people they need to work on level design, how many on cinematics, how many on writing. It's not like the scope of every game is identical and they just move staff from one game to the next. There are multiple games in production at one time and they're not all the same size or scope, so I don't think it's a 1:1 ratio of "we had 10 level designers in DAI so we have to use 10 level designers in DA4"


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#425
robertthebard

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Wrong. Storytelling and role-playing must be equal. At least that is what Bioware's particular market demands.

Role-play in the midst of a weak story is an MMO. We don't want that.

I kindly suggest those who disagree to gtfo of trying to fundamentally alter Bioware games and play Black Desert or Destiny, which are great. I love them myself, too. They will welcome you with open arms.


As you continue to try to alter what they're doing, along with trying to determine what their market demands. I'm going to assume you've got some actual numbers to back that up, but opted not to share them here, so you could unveil them with some dramatic flair later? Of course, as we can tell from this very thread, your hypothesis falls flat, as some of us felt like we got story with room to role play. If I wanted a "tight, linear game", I'd play Assassin's Creed, or TW. I'm sure CDPR would welcome you with open arms.
 
 

You want a BioWare game without a story? :huh: I'm not saying there shouldn't be sidequests, even the kind with no dialogue options or choices involved (I know you guys love your headcanon). Or do you mean they should start making sandbox games or something like The Sims? I definitely wouldn't play either of those. Having a sandbox style game where you have to headcanon everything may be ideal for you but it would be awful for me. In my opinion a tighter and more fleshed out linear story would give more options to roleplay and would allow your actions to have a greater effect on the rest of the story. 
 
Anyway as much as I would love it if BioWare would make games that I love again, my expectations are quite low at this point. If they make the kind of game you describe I'd just not buy it and move on with my life. At that point I'd know there's no point in looking into BioWare's future games and hoping for something more.


I think the point was more "Just say no to a linear story", hence that last line in his post.
 
 

Then why are you guys playing Bioware games to begin with? They have always been about story over exploration. DAI is the first game of theirs that is not. Were you playing all previous games reluctantly, hoping that some day a game focused on exploration would emerge? Why not just play a Bethesda game or another exploration game instead? People in this thread have been playing Bioware games because they're story and character focused.
 
I get that open world exploration is the direction Bioware is moving in, but it's not like this was something we all knew about when we first picked up DAO or DA2 and enjoyed it and wanted more in the same style. People keep saying that we as consumers should have known that DAI would be more open world and shouldn't ask that the change in gameplay we don't like be changed. But that amounts to "so what if you liked the old games? this is the new direction and since I like the new direction better, stop complaining." And if we knew that the game was going to be more open world, should we just not have bought the game? Or bought the game but then pretended we liked everything because we knew it was going to have more exploration? I don't dislike exploration and it can be done well in a way that compliments the story, so I have no way of knowing if a game does that until I play it.


Because I got what I was looking for, in every single game I've played from BioWare? I've been getting it since Baldur's Gate. Insisting that I don't need a cutscene for every single quest in the game isn't the same thing as saying I don't want story, and frankly, Sylvius may just be saying no to "Assassin's Creed in Thedas". That is what a tight, linear story looks like. It doesn't matter if you don't chase the feathers in AC 2, Brotherhood assumes you did. There's your tight, linear story.
 
 

I'm not an expert in game production so this is all just my personal opinion, but from what Gaider is saying, the staffing issue is more relevant once the game design has already started and HR has hired/reallocated staff members to their specialized roles. Since DA4 hasn't even been officially announced and Patrick Weekes is the only person working on it, Bioware can very easily decide how many people they need to work on level design, how many on cinematics, how many on writing. It's not like the scope of every game is identical and they just move staff from one game to the next. There are multiple games in production at one time and they're not all the same size or scope, so I don't think it's a 1:1 ratio of "we had 10 level designers in DAI so we have to use 10 level designers in DA4"


Did you play NWN 2? If yes, did you mess with the toolset at all? Unlike NWN, here level design was tiles that you laid out in a grid, in NWN 2, you had to paint every texture, you had to form every hill. I did a couple of areas in NWN 2. It took me 2 weeks to get the terrain right in one of them, including walk meshes, but no towns, no NPCs, no creatures. A level starts out as an X x Y grid. I'm not sure about Frostbite, I've never worked in it, but looking at the terrain variations from map to map, I'd say it's about the same. So trying to say "We only need 4 level designers" which, while maybe that's all they do need, again, I've never worked in Frostbite, I don't know, but in NWN 2, that would mean that you're going to need a long development cycle just to get the areas done, and frankly, some publishers may not want to pay for that, especially if the rest of the game is "done", and they're just waiting on maps to put stuff in. Because all those writers are going to have to be kept on staff until it goes Gold.

They may need to rewrite a scene because it won't work with the terrain/tiles it's supposed to take place in. Animators can't make the cutscenes until they know where they're making them. You can't just make a blank stage and tell the level designers to input the terrain later, like the classic "green screen" from movies. It doesn't work that way. They have to set the stage, which requires that the level be done first. These are things that they know, that you didn't know. These are some of the reasons they staff a game the way they do. It's not "direction", or "we're going to make an ARPG", it's "we need to have these resources available so that we can do x".