609 réponses à ce sujet

[Sylvius the Mad]

And yet Sylvius hasn't! Your ultimate BG1 fan never finished the game. Sorry Mr. C9 it's just you and me, and Andraste, I guess.

I don't know what caused you have to have a harder time with DA2 than BG1, but frankly a lot of "easier" games can be harder if you are used to challenging games because they just kind of are so obvious you are looking for the challenge and it doesn't exist.

At any rate, regardless of what you feel, BG1 was a more challenging, interesting, demanding game, from a game perspective, and frankly just from an everything perspective.

NWN was quite a bit easier, Dragon Age was another drop off from that.

I don't think challenge is important, but I do think options are important, and modern games don't offer many of those.

[Seraphim24]

I would if I'd looked at a map in advance. I'm a big fan of lore and mechanics being available prior to playing the game.

That said, my first character was the same first character I always play. Leaving Helgen, he initially went back to Helgen to see what he could salvage. Then he retraced the steps of the wagon that brought him there, looking for signs of how he was captured. Not finding any, he ventured to the nearest large town (Whiterun) for news. There, he learned of the mages' college in Winterhold, and headed directly for it (northeast across the wilderness - I almost never follow the roads in Skyrim).e.

 

Ok, when you say "ventured to the nearest large town" I assume that would of had to have been when the people give some sort of directions for you to get there, i.e, it's not the world map.

 

As for Winterhold, there is simply no way you would have found Winterhold without taking an insane amount of time and energy to just run there.

 

But even more to the point, there is nothing dangerous on the roads really, or even off the roads, just the same old bandits and bears.

 

It's Minecraft almost, really.

 

And Minecraft isn't non-linear either, it's just a big giant room that you play blocks with inside, it's the play area at an Ikea, it's not the store, it's literally the "sandbox."

[AlanC9]

How did you even know what "place to place" was though? Why would you bother going N or S or E or W out of the very first town in Skyrim? There is no indication what is in any direction so it might as well have been random.

I wanted to go back to this a second ... why wouldn't his PC look at the map? Skyrim is mapped, after all.

Also, weren't road signs a thing?

[Seraphim24]

I don't think challenge is important, but I do think options are important, and modern games don't offer many of those.

 

Well I can tell you that's fine what you think, but it turns out challenge is important... more interesting and immersive games are more interesting for players.

 

Of course, sometimes people will buy Skyrim en masse or whatever and that's fine and all, but if we're saying which is substantively more engaging the hardcore experience is going to win out (provided it's not artificial, etc)

[Seraphim24]

I wanted to go back to this a second ... why wouldn't his PC look at the map? Skyrim is mapped, after all.

 

Ok fine lets just forget this fixation on the map, Skyrim is casual, Skyrim is simple, Skyrim is, slightly beneath the surface, a bit like Minecraft. It's not super challenging, it's just not, it's less interesting, it's like the TW3 developer said it's kind of Vanilla.

[UniformGreyColor]

I would if I'd looked at a map in advance. I'm a big fan of lore and mechanics being available prior to playing the game.

That said, my first character was the same first character I always play. Leaving Helgen, he initially went back to Helgen to see what he could salvage. Then he retraced the steps of the wagon that brought him there, looking for signs of how he was captured. Not finding any, he ventured to the nearest large town (Whiterun) for news. There, he learned of the mages' college in Winterhold, and headed directly for it (northeast across the wilderness - I almost never follow the roads in Skyrim).

It was a bit like the start of Oblivion, where I escaped from prison, and was immediately told to seek out the captain of the guard of the Ling who imprisoned me. That sounded like the dumbest idea ever, so I made a point of never visiting that town.

In Baldur's Gate, Gorion tells me to go to the Friendly Arm Inn, but he also just led us into an ambush, so I decided instead to leave the road and head south. As such, I didn't meet (until much later in the game) any of the companions who were supposed to tell me to go to Nashkel. So the main quest remained hidden from me for quite some time.

 

That.. was great! I actually laughed a little. I find it pretty cool that you played that way.

[Seraphim24]

I'm not sure why this is proving so ... like most people don't seriously consider Skyrim to be the pinnacle of hardcore RPG gaming... there are dozens of RPGs all over that I've played which were more intense and engaging... even though that's not necessarily the most common thing they certainly exist.

[AlanC9]

As for Winterhold, there is simply no way you would have found Winterhold without taking an insane amount of time and energy to just run there.
 

Huh? Walking along the roads in a great way to find stuff.

[Seraphim24]

Huh? Walking along the roads in a great way to find stuff.

 

Ok.

[AlanC9]

I'm not sure why this is proving so ... like most people don't seriously consider Skyrim to be the pinnacle of hardcore RPG gaming... there are dozens of RPGs all over that I've played which were more intense and engaging... even though that's not necessarily the most common thing they certainly exist.

Was anyone saying that?

[Seraphim24]

Was anyone saying that?

 

No, but there is all this pushback on the assertion that Skyrim is vanilla for some reason.

 

Look, whatever, you guys feel however you want about whatever, all I'm saying is the modern RPG side quest is often simple and boring, sometimes it's more engaging though, point to examples, etc.

 

Often not always, sometimes, greater, lesser, whatever.

[AlanC9]

I don't think "vanilla" is a useful term here. What concept are you attempting to convey?

Anyway I certainly wasn't trying to defend Skyrim. I just thought the stuff you were saying about Skyrim overland travel was a bit dopey.

[Seraphim24]

I don't think "vanilla" is a useful term here. What concept are you attempting to convey?

 

You know honestly I don't really know to phrase anything differently than how I've done already, like in Skyrim you get a quest to kill 10 bats, you know where the bats are, you know they aren't really going to fight back, you swing the sword, the bats go down, you collect money, pure and simple. You level up you get HP buff whatever, blah, blah.

 

Like consider a quest in TW3, like the Witcher contracts, yeah, you fight some bats or something, but those always end against like a Griffon that's going to tear you apart, or could use skillful dodging, or oil, or just, something to make it go easier. You can probably succeed without all that but there's like an escalation in intensity.

[Nefla]

I'm not sure why this is proving so ... like most people don't seriously consider Skyrim to be the pinnacle of hardcore RPG gaming... there are dozens of RPGs all over that I've played which were more intense and engaging... even though that's not necessarily the most common thing they certainly exist.

Ok but...How does this relate to improving the quests in DA4?

[Seraphim24]

Ok but...How does this relate to improving the quests in DA4?

 

Well, if you want better quests don't copy Skyrim make it more like the games that did it better.

[AlanC9]

Like consider a quest in TW3, like the Witcher contracts, yeah, you fight some bats or something, but those always end against like a Griffon that's going to tear you apart, or could use skillful dodging, or oil, or just, something to make it go easier. You can probably succeed without all that but there's like an escalation in intensity.

But this is just intellectual confusion. Those quests, as quests, are the same. Go here, kill stuff. It's just that the lousy Skyrim combat system doesn't hide the lousy quest design quite as well.

[Seraphim24]

But this is just intellectual confusion. Those quests, as quests, are the same. It's just that the lousy Skyrim combat system doesn't hide the lousy quest design quite as well.

 

Wrong, those quests are not the same...

 

"Go here kill stuff" is a very abstract category in which they fit, the way in which that same concept is executed though is quite different. Just like Gex, Enter the Gecko, Hannah Montana sing along, Omega Boost, and Batman Arkham Knight all feature "interactivity," doesn't mean they don't involve substantial differences in the experience on multiple levels.

 

I'm not saying they are as different as Pluto and the Sun but there is a substantial difference.

 

Well, then, I guess, perhaps, as different as Pluto and the Sun.

[AlanC9]

Wrong, those quests are not the same.

Go kill this stuff. What's the difference?

Edit:so, there's a difference in the quest design but you can't actually say what it is?

[Seraphim24]

Edit:so, there's a difference in the quest design but you can't actually say what it is?

 

Well I hope you don't mind me doing some copy pasting...

 

in Skyrim you get a quest to kill 10 bats, you know where the bats are, you know they aren't really going to fight back, you swing the sword, the bats go down, you collect money, pure and simple. You level up you get HP buff whatever, blah, blah.

 

Like consider a quest in TW3, like the Witcher contracts, yeah, you fight some bats or something, but those always end against like a Griffon that's going to tear you apart, or could use skillful dodging, or oil, or just, something to make it go easier. You can probably succeed without all that but there's like an escalation in intensity.

[Nefla]

Well, if you want better quests don't copy Skyrim make it more like the games that did it better.

I liked the Daedric quests and the faction quests, but other than that I would not suggest copying Skyrim's quests but rather quests from TW3 or previous BioWare games. I do prefer Skyrim's combat to DA's though.

[Seraphim24]

I liked the Daedric quests and the faction quests, but other than that I would not suggest copying Skyrim's quests but rather quests from TW3 or previous BioWare games. I do prefer Skyrim's combat to DA's though.

 

Meh... DA's combat is so all over the place, I don't even know what I'm calling DA combat it has these cataclysmic shift. Dragon Age Inquisition seemed close to just bland auto-attack have generic tank/heal do generic tank/heal things, which is pretty uninspired, but DA used to be more challenging and interesting.

[Seraphim24]

I had a harder time maintaining my interest, certainly.

 

But, to tell the truth, I've never actually finished BG1.  I've never even finished Chapter 5.  I've played that far literally dozens of times, but once the game gets linear I kind of lose interest.

 

You know what, I sort of did the exact the same thing, got to chapter 5 and then the city itself the game makes a huge tonal shift and isn't nearly as interesting.

 

Finally, one time I just powered through it all, think I've only beaten it once though to this day. The last chapter of BG1 is easily the weakest part of the whole game, it's like they just abandoned the entire style which had been prevalent up until that point in favor of a more by the numbers experience.

 

And to this day, outside of that once or twice when I did actually finish it, I would mostly just play up until that part, hm, what do you know..

 

I've gotten the sense since then that Bioware is really more of.. well.. .somewhat.. mainstream... not really super on the fringe, but not like, typical, either.. .RPG company in some ways, but to kind of "make it" they paid full service to hardcore RPGs like D&D and such, and did quite a good job of it all but they were always kind of shifting towards a more mainstream universe culminating in the likes of Dragon Age and ME.

[UniformGreyColor]

I liked the Daedric quests and the faction quests, but other than that I would not suggest copying Skyrim's quests but rather quests from TW3 or previous BioWare games. I do prefer Skyrim's combat to DA's though.

 

Or (And I know people are prolly going to hate me for saying this) BW could do their quest system different than anything we have ever seen before! I wouldn't mind a totally new rendition of how to do quest honestly. It would be nice to see something completely new from BW.

[Mr Fixit]

I'm not a big fan of the randomness part -- at least, not when it comes into play without any effective way to stop it. BG2 is better in this regard; if Confusion wrecks your party it's your fault.

 

Wait till you have a combo of Dispel Magic/Breach/Greater Malison/Chaos coming your way! Good luck resisting that!

[Mr Fixit]

I'm willing to bet like I'm probably the only one here on this entire forum who actually beat Baldur's Gate 1 without cheating.

 

Really? That's a bet you WILL lose! (What's cheating anyway? Using CLUA console? Something else?)

 

Anyway, these days when I play BG1, I use a bunch of mods like SCS that make the game considerably harder!