609 réponses à ce sujet

[UniformGreyColor]

Huh, I guess I was the only one who liked Skyrim combat. The bow mechanics were especially fun.

 

I can't tell you the amount of times I went to Bleak Falls Barrow only to snip every enemy in sight.

[Sylvius the Mad]

I know that you have a very specific play style and approach to role playing. That's fine, no issues with having a different (and interesting) view point.

I do think people with very radical styles do need to recognize, though, that their views are not going to be widely held, and it's unrealistic to expect a game to match their specific requirements well. Especially in the era of gaming appealing to the broadest audience as possible.

I don't post here in an attempt to change BioWare's mind. I just want the broader gaming public to be aware that my playstyle is possible, so that it isn't forgotten.

I will note that it's a little ironic that you are all for open world games and non linear storytelling and want Bioware to keep doing this, but one of the few open world games they've had, BG1, you haven't even finished.

The end of BG is linear.

And I should correct you. I don't favour non-linear storytelling. I oppose linear storytelling, but one of the ways to avoid that is not to tell stories. I don't play BioWare's games for the stories. I treat the authored narrative as flavour text for the setting.

Again, that's fine, nothing wrong with how you play your games. But honestly I don't think you're the ideal/target consumer for Bioware, as they want people to finish their games and play for the story. Story is what they're known for, and if they continue to release DLC content like Awakening, Trespasser, or the canceled Exalted Marches (I know that was canceled so not the best example, but it shows that their initial intent was to have an ending DLC to the base game), then they want as many people to complete the game as possible, so that those players will also buy the post-campaign DLC.

Trespasser? That's not post-game.

BioWare's own gameplay data says that the cast majority of players don't finished their games.

It probably also won't surprise you that I prefer in-game DLC as opposed to post-game DLC.

It's in their best interests to try to attract gamers who want to play through to the end of the main story and want more (in the form of paid ending DLCs). I'm on the fence about how great it is to have "epilogue" DLCs be required for the "full" game's experience, but regardless of my feelings, from a business perspective it's profitable.

There's no reason for you to be beholden to BioWare's idea of what the full game is.

[Sylvius the Mad]

Huh, I guess I was the only one who liked Skyrim combat. The bow mechanics were especially fun.

Stealth+archery was the only way to make Skyrim's combat acceptable. I did really enjoy sniping from extreme range.

Especially after I built a new PC for Inquisition. Going back to Skyrim, I then had a much greater draw distance, and that's a huge advantage in archery.

[Nefla]

Huh, I guess I was the only one who liked Skyrim combat. The bow mechanics were especially fun.

I liked it too (much better than the style of DA combat). Stealth+archery+enchantments+runes+summon=a good time is had by me XD

Another thing I like about skyrim and it's something that would have dramatically improved the "ambient storytelling" in DA:I for me is the ability to switch between 1st and 3rd person view and adjust the distance of the camera in 3rd person on the fly.

[vbibbi]

Well, not a diamond. The diamond is there to mark something you already knew about, right? (This is a problem for some wuests which shouldn't have defined targets, but do.) That's why they show in parts of the map you haven't been to. The others only show when you get close, typically visual range, so you do have to explore to get them.

I can see why Bio included the markers. I'm not a big fan of talking to every single NPC in a town to see which ones are in a plot, and inanimate objects are often non-interactive in a Bio game.

I guess I just assume people who are more focused on exploration than story would prefer no map markers so that they can truly be immersed in exploration rather than running from point A to point B. Though I realize it would take a lot longer to complete quests if we had the scale of maps in DAI than it did in previous games.

 

Trespasser? That's not post-game.

All fair points, so thank you for the detail. Though I'm curious on this one. Are we able to import a save game directly into Trespasser? I thought the war table starter didn't appear until after we defeat Corypheus.

[Sylvius the Mad]

I guess I just assume people who are more focused on exploration than story would prefer no map markers so that they can truly be immersed in exploration rather than running from point A to point B. Though I realize it would take a lot longer to complete quests if we had the scale of maps in DAI than it did in previous games.

I would prefer that.

All fair points, so thank you for the detail. Though I'm curious on this one. Are we able to import a save game directly into Trespasser? I thought the war table starter didn't appear until after we defeat Corypheus.

I haven't played DAI since before Trespasser was released, but I was under the impression that you could do Trespasser any time after reaching Skyhold.

[Guitar-Hero]

I would prefer that.
I haven't played DAI since before Trespasser was released, but I was under the impression that you could do Trespasser any time after reaching Skyhold.

You can't, Trespasser becomes available after the bad guy is defeated. 

[Seraphim24]

I do think people with very radical styles do need to recognize, though, that their views are not going to be widely held, and it's unrealistic to expect a game to match their specific requirements well. Especially in the era of gaming appealing to the broadest audience as possible.

 

I will note that it's a little ironic that you are all for open world games and non linear storytelling and want Bioware to keep doing this, but one of the few open world games they've had, BG1, you haven't even finished. Again, that's fine, nothing wrong with how you play your games. But honestly I don't think you're the ideal/target consumer for Bioware, as they want people to finish their games and play for the story. Story is what they're known for, and if they continue to release DLC content like Awakening, Trespasser, or the canceled Exalted Marches (I know that was canceled so not the best example, but it shows that their initial intent was to have an ending DLC to the base game), then they want as many people to complete the game as possible, so that those players will also buy the post-campaign DLC.

 

It's in their best interests to try to attract gamers who want to play through to the end of the main story and want more (in the form of paid ending DLCs). I'm on the fence about how great it is to have "epilogue" DLCs be required for the "full" game's experience, but regardless of my feelings, from a business perspective it's profitable.

 

I see this a lot so lets be clear, Bioware's foundational ethos (for all their games) is in a form of D&D hardcore gaming. Whether it's the Ashley/Kaidan choice in ME, or just choices generally, they descended from good/evil and lawful/chaotic systems of D&D that were in early Baldur's Gate.

 

Not to mention, all the way up to and including Dragon Age: Origins, Bioware clearly wanted people to play and be challenged by the game itself.

 

I don't know if you were around for this but the very first iteration of Dragon Age: Origins featured fairly hardcore difficulty, it was patched and that patch probably reflected a few just bugs and stuff (I remember crit being bugged), but nonetheless.

 

Not to mention, if we're talking characters, most of the characters from Baldur's Gate 1 were more interesting anyway, primarily because they just sort of abandoned lots of stereotypes and were just taken to extremes like Minsc (a superhero taken to an extreme and logical conclusion, almost like a deconstruction) or Edwin (the same for evil) or Viconia, who was a Lawful Evil Cleric that, from what you could tell, only did good.

 

In fact oftentimes a lot of the "story" that people herald in the likes of Inquisition or later MEs or the DLC is simply based on characters from like earlier iterations (Ambassadors, Chancellors, Council, Leliana, Morrigan, Alistair), or the same themes (Reaper, Blight, etc)

 

For all the talk and attention on things like ME3, I can't find for the life of me see the major appeal of someone like Vega.

 

And yet something like TW3 which clearly invested more in the game design itself (and would seem to be the characters to a degree as well) did ultimately sell like twice as much as Inquisition if I'm not mistaken, so on the contrary, it seems like something they should pay attention to.

[Seraphim24]

I still have GateKeeper, the savegame editor.

 

Ah, I'm just a low level bug that used the CLUA, to be honest, BG kind of made cheating more accessible than ever more, not sure if Bioware would be happy being associated with that lol.

 

Honestly though before that with like a game shark you needed this add-on or something, or with most PC games it was pretty obscure, then Blizzard you had this codes "poweroverwhelming" and Bioware had the CLUA.

[Seraphim24]

That is the point of exploration. Finding what is out there. You pick a direction and go until you find the end of the map in that direction. I use that end and send the protagonist in an east or west direction. Eventually the entire map is revealed. My first go round in Skyrim clocked in at 700 hours, but then I completed about every quest.

 

See but like 700 hours is just way too long of a game honestly lol.

 

I mean maybe it isn't from a perspective of 20 million people bought and played it and all that, but a lot of gamer fatigue these days is a consequence the massive bloat in things like Skyrim which found it's way into lots of other games.

[vbibbi]

I would prefer that.
I haven't played DAI since before Trespasser was released, but I was under the impression that you could do Trespasser any time after reaching Skyhold.

No, it's only available after the final mission. It takes place 2 years after the main game, so once you start it, the rest of the game is unavailable.

 

I see this a lot so lets be clear, Bioware's foundational ethos (for all their games) is in a form of D&D hardcore gaming. Whether it's the Ashley/Kaidan choice in ME, or just choices generally, they descended from good/evil and lawful/chaotic systems of D&D that were in early Baldur's Gate.

 

Not to mention, if we're talking characters, most of the characters from Baldur's Gate 1 were more interesting anyway, primarily because they just sort of abandoned lots of stereotypes and were just taken to extremes like Minsc (a superhero taken to an extreme and logical conclusion, almost like a deconstruction) or Edwin (the same for evil) or Viconia, who was a Lawful Evil Cleric that, from what you could tell, only did good.

I don't think it's their foundational ethos any more. Jennifer Hepler, a writer for DAO and DA2 even at one point said something along the lines that she wishes games could have the option to skip combat. A comment which earner her a lot of hate, unfortunately, and was taken out of context. The point of most of the companions in DA and ME has not to follow the restrictive D&D alignment system. None of the characters can easily fit into a category, they're much more nuanced than Evil and Ambitious But Funny Wizard Edwin, who is the very definition of LE.

 

I can't see how any of the NPCs in BG1 were nuanced, at all. They were bare bones caricatures of generic fantasy characters with no real personality. They improved in BG2.

[Seraphim24]

I liked it too (much better than the style of DA combat). Stealth+archery+enchantments+runes+summon=a good time is had by me XD

Another thing I like about skyrim and it's something that would have dramatically improved the "ambient storytelling" in DA:I for me is the ability to switch between 1st and 3rd person view and adjust the distance of the camera in 3rd person on the fly.

 

Well see the thing is in every Elder Scrolls game I was play the wrong thing. Like I first played a fighter in Morrowind which is way worse than Thieves and Mages. I first played a mage in Oblivion which is way worse than thieves and fighters. And I played a fighter again in Skyrim which is worse than Thieves and Mages.

[Seraphim24]

I don't think it's their foundational ethos any more. Jennifer Hepler, a writer for DAO and DA2 even at one point said something along the lines that she wishes games could have the option to skip combat. A comment which earner her a lot of hate, unfortunately, and was taken out of context. The point of most of the companions in DA and ME has not to follow the restrictive D&D alignment system. None of the characters can easily fit into a category, they're much more nuanced than Evil and Ambitious But Funny Wizard Edwin, who is the very definition of LE.

 

I can't see how any of the NPCs in BG1 were nuanced, at all. They were bare bones caricatures of generic fantasy characters with no real personality. They improved in BG2.

 

And yet Dragon Age 2 didn't have the option to skip combat, so it's, well, still there.

 

As long as they are a video game company, then it's fair to say their ethos is derived around a sense of gaming. If they just want to announce the ending of games and they'll just release full length movies they could certainly do that, but my sense is they still believe people who like hardcore games are still around for that. The honest answer is though they basically are not, one way or another.

 

Especially since they cancelled Shadow Realms which was seeming to be a more hardcore game experience.

 

Like I said, relax, if it doesn't work for us, we'll just find other games, and in fact I'd say most people in this thread actively play other games that provide what they're looking for, for the most part.

 

And also relax because like I said, Bioware could probably take any approach and still sell a lot of games.

 

Also they did not improve in BG2, BG2 was still interesting but as just said they were more stereotypical in many ways as given with examples. Not say BG2 wasn't lots of fun though because it was at times.

 

Besides, saying "none of the characters in DA/ME" easily to fit into a category is absurd. You have Leliana the spacey and attachment prone Bard, you have the salty older Woman (who couldn't be like, I don't know, the vivacious and hyper sexual old woman, because like, that would be different), you have handsome charming templar knight (Alistair), you have Ice Queen (Morrigan), you have carefree whimsical Rogue (Zevran).

 

In ME, you have stiff, duty-bound soldier (Ashley), sensitive and protective medic (Kaidan, although since these are typically the other gender role that is a bit different), top cop (Garrus), Diffident science nerd (Tali), and then you have Wrex who is probably more interesting than all the rest combined but it's still just one character.

 

In Baldur's Gate, you would have a diffident Krogan warrior, a sensitive and protective soldier, a duty bound cop (which actually doesn't sound super appealing per se), an Ice King Templar, a charming female mage, salty vivacious sex prone bard, and a spacey and attachment prone older thief character.

 

I don't know why these always turned into comparisons, DA and ME are fine and all but the earlier games had more startling impressions. That's not to again, super criticize ME or DA either, I've played both series and it's been, again, fun at times, but it's like I say, never quite as striking as the earlier stuff.

[Seraphim24]

Anyway, all this discussion just makes me want to play Morrowind again, lol, think I might break out the CD..........

 

Cheers!

 

Spoiler

[vbibbi]

And yet Dragon Age 2 didn't have the option to skip combat, so it's, well, still there.

I didn't say DA2 didn't have combat. I was using an example of someone who worked at Bioware who didn't have the same commitment to D&D combat.
 

As long as they are a video game company, then it's fair to say their ethos is derived around a sense of gaming. If they just want to announce the ending of games and they'll just release full length movies they could certainly do that, but my sense is they still believe people who like hardcore games are still around for that. The honest answer is though they basically are not, one way or another.

Okay? When did I say they aren't involved in games rather than films? You said they're committed to a D&D ethos and I disagreed. Are all games derived from D&D?
 

Like I said, relax, if it doesn't work for us, we'll just find other games, and in fact I'd say most people in this thread actively play other games that provide what they're looking for, for the most part.
 
And also relax because like I said, Bioware could probably take any approach and still sell a lot of games.

Thank you for calming me, I was really going into a rage there, wasn't I?
 

Also they did not improve in BG2, BG2 was still interesting but as just said they were more stereotypical in many ways as given with examples. Not say BG2 wasn't lots of fun though because it was at times.

What were the BG2 examples? Anomen the chivalrous knight and Aerie the "spacey carnival mage"? Anomen is anything but a stereotypical knight: he is angry and can barely control his temper, verges on moving away from LG all the time after he's knighted, is jealous of Keldorn, the actual typical knight. And Aerie isn't spacey at all, she's just whiny. She does have some depth, though, and some character growth.

I'm not sure how well you know these characters, though, since you said Viconia was LE when she was NE.
 

Besides, saying "none of the characters in DA/ME" easily to fit into a category is absurd. You have Leliana the spacey and attachment prone Bard, you have the salty older Woman (who couldn't be like, I don't know, the vivacious and hyper sexual old woman, because like, that would be different), you have handsome charming templar knight (Alistair), you have Ice Queen (Morrigan), you have carefree whimsical Rogue (Zevran).

I said they didn't fit into the D&D alignment system. Every person fits into some type of category, that's what categories do. You said that ME and DA are based on a D&D ethos and I disagree.
 

In ME, you have stiff, duty-bound soldier (Ashley), sensitive and protective medic (Kaidan, although since these are typically the other gender role that is a bit different), top cop (Garrus), Diffident science nerd (Tali), and then you have Wrex who is probably more interesting than all the rest combined but it's still just one character.
 
In Baldur's Gate, you would have a diffident Krogan warrior, a sensitive and protective soldier, a duty bound cop (which actually doesn't sound super appealing per se), an Ice King Templar, a charming female mage, salty vivacious sex prone bard, and a spacey and attachment prone older thief character.

I don't know where you're going with these comparisons or how they're different...
 

I don't know why these always turned into comparisons, DA and ME are fine and all but the earlier games had more startling impressions.

Because you initiated the comparison saying the later games are built on a BG1 foundation?

[Seraphim24]

I didn't say DA2 didn't have combat. I was using an example of someone who worked at Bioware who didn't have the same commitment to D&D combat.
 

Okay? When did I say they aren't involved in games rather than films? You said they're committed to a D&D ethos and I disagreed. Are all games derived from D&D?

 

No.

 

 

What were the BG2 examples? Anomen the chivalrous knight and Aerie the "spacey carnival mage"? Anomen is anything but a stereotypical knight: he is angry and can barely control his temper, verges on moving away from LG all the time after he's knighted, is jealous of Keldorn, the actual typical knight. And Aerie isn't spacey at all, she's just whiny. She does have some depth, though, and some character growth.

 

 

more stereotypical.

 

 

 

Thank you for calming me, I was really going into a rage there, wasn't I?

 

 

Hey glad to know it isn't a problem, it just seemed like you were being very insistent....

 

I'm not sure how well you know these characters, though, since you said Viconia was LE when she was NE.
 

 

 

Mm, you know out of everything I said that was the one thing I thought about double checking, but I didn't because the important point was that she was "evil aligned" fundamentally.

 

 

I said they didn't fit into the D&D alignment system. Every person fits into some type of category, that's what categories do. You said that ME and DA are based on a D&D ethos and I disagree.

 

Feel what you want, doesn't make it true.

 

 

I don't know where you're going with these comparisons or how they're different...

Ok.....

 

Well... I don't really know what else to say to be honest only that there is an enduring relevance of the game itself in a "story driven era" at Bioware.

 

But like I said, more likely they'll just make games however they want, and whatever they appeal to most is the people that will play them, could be gamers of any flavor, depending on the experience.

[robertthebard]

I didn't say DA2 didn't have combat. I was using an example of someone who worked at Bioware who didn't have the same commitment to D&D combat.

However, one person's opinion of what should be in a game doesn't, or more accurately didn't affect the way the games went going forward. That there is one with a differing opinion doesn't mean the company's direction is any different. That would be paramount to saying that the entirety of the BSN felt like she should be getting death threats for her comment, because someone on the BSN issued her a death threat.
 
snip

[Akrabra]

Huh, I guess I was the only one who liked Skyrim combat. The bow mechanics were especially fun.

Not at all, Skyrim's combat is quite good. The enemy AI is abit meh though, other than that i love it. Played 1500 hours with the vanilla combat on PC and people make fun of me for it. Like you need mods for everything. 

[Sylvius the Mad]

You can't, Trespasser becomes available after the bad guy is defeated.

Right, I was thinking of Descent. Sorry.

[Sylvius the Mad]

I didn't say DA2 didn't have combat. I was using an example of someone who worked at Bioware who didn't have the same commitment to D&D combat.

D&D wasn't just about combat, though. It was about simulating a world with a coherent ruleset. Combat was part of that, and that coherent ruleset made combat quite punishing, but it was quite possible to play D&D without engaging in much combat.

Combat was just the first part to get ported to CRPGs.

[Nefla]

I guess I just assume people who are more focused on exploration than story would prefer no map markers so that they can truly be immersed in exploration rather than running from point A to point B. Though I realize it would take a lot longer to complete quests if we had the scale of maps in DAI than it did in previous games.

I've played some games where the map is uncovered as you explore but no map markers exist. The player can make their own markers on the in-game map though and label them. I think that's a realistic system and a good compromise

 

Not at all, Skyrim's combat is quite good. The enemy AI is abit meh though, other than that i love it. Played 1500 hours with the vanilla combat on PC and people make fun of me for it. Like you need mods for everything. 

<~~~1000 hours here (on the Xbox 360 so obviously no mods). It's a few PC elitists who believe they and people like them are the majority of game sales and that of course everyone finds the game without mods "unplayable" because they themselves do.

[Sylvius the Mad]

I've played some games where the map is uncovered as you explore but no map markers exist. The player can make their own markers on the in-game map though and label them. I think that's a realistic system and a good compromise

<~~~1000 hours here (on the Xbox 360 so obviously no mods). It's a few PC elitists who believe they and people like them are the majority of game sales and that of course everyone finds the game without mods "unplayable" because they themselves do.

The PC UI was widely loathed.

I didn't mind it. I only ever installed SkyUI because so many other mods needed it.

Mods are wonderful things, because they let us customize the games to our own personal specifications. If I have some weird preference no one else shares, the developers are never going to make any effort to accommodate that preference, but with mods I can do it myself.

[Joseph Warrick]

Someone should come up with a name for the strange fact that every thread eventually becomes a variation of A Treatise On Gaming And Life According To Sylvius The Mad. Give a thread a few pages and Sylvius the Mad is bound to jump in at some point and start talking about himself, his theories concerning the act of role playing, his favourite number...

[Sylvius the Mad]

Ah, I'm just a low level bug that used the CLUA, to be honest, BG kind of made cheating more accessible than ever more, not sure if Bioware would be happy being associated with that lol.

I maintain that it's not possible to cheat in a single-player game. It's yours to do with as you see fit.

[Sylvius the Mad]

Someone should come up with a name for the strange fact that every thread eventually becomes a variation of A Treatise On Gaming And Life According To Sylvius The Mad. It's like in every single thread, give it a few dozen pages and at some point Sylvius the Mad is bound to jump in and start talking about himself, what he does and likes.

It's a symptom.