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Article on the nature of modern RPG side quests


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#551
Nefla

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Someone should come up with a name for the strange fact that every thread eventually becomes a variation of A Treatise On Gaming And Life According To Sylvius The Mad. Give a thread a few pages and Sylvius the Mad is bound to jump in at some point and start talking about himself, his theories concerning the act of role playing, his favourite number...

Hey, it's a lot more interesting (and civil) than what was going on in this thread a few days ago :P



#552
BansheeOwnage

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I guess many people liked the bow in Skyrim at least, then.

I liked it too (much better than the style of DA combat). Stealth+archery+enchantments+runes+summon=a good time is had by me XD

Another thing I like about skyrim and it's something that would have dramatically improved the "ambient storytelling" in DA:I for me is the ability to switch between 1st and 3rd person view and adjust the distance of the camera in 3rd person on the fly.

Yes, one of my favourite aspects of Skyrim is the lack of classes, and I wish more games would do it that way. You have complete freedom to choose whatever playstyle you want, to chose any combination of skills. You can be a standard sword+shield tank, or a sword+magic user, magic only (not to mention all the different kinds of magic!), archery, stealth, etc.

 

My preferred style was to combine/alternate between a sword+shield and being stealthy with a bow, and using magic every now and then. I was basically all DA classes at once! I also liked that there was no restriction on armour types, naturally, since there are no classes. And I liked most of their designs. My favourite was the Elven armour.

 

I like that feature too (same in Fallout). I like to run around in 3rd person partly because it makes my character feel like someone in the world, partly because I actually like to see the person I spent way too long in the CC making, and partly because too much 1st person makes me motion-sick sometimes. But I used first person 99% of the time in combat, mostly because I could control my actions better but also because it's more immersive.


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#553
Seraphim24

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Someone should come up with a name for the strange fact that every thread eventually becomes a variation of A Treatise On Gaming And Life According To Sylvius The Mad. Give a thread a few pages and Sylvius the Mad is bound to jump in at some point and start talking about himself, his theories concerning the act of role playing, his favourite number...

 

As far as I can tell, he is quite the knowledgeable and dedicated hardcore gamer, I for one would be very fearful encountering him in the middle of some FPS game. :lol:



#554
Seraphim24

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I maintain that it's not possible to cheat in a single-player game. It's yours to do with as you see fit.

 

Uh.........

 

:whistle:



#555
Seraphim24

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Hey, it's a lot more interesting (and civil) than what was going on in this thread a few days ago :P

 

Don't know why, but this thread is one of the calmest and plainest places I've been on this whole forum possibly ever. Maybe it's just because we're here to just talk about games and fun games and/or games we don't like and/or why and the bits and pieces that make them tick and simple things like that..

 

As much as I've lamented Bioware games I actually have quite a few games and stuff I'm interested in and playing these days, a lot of it is maybe lesser known but some more popular stuff I guess.

 

Speaking of which opted against Morrowind (for now) and instead I've almost finished TW3, got towards the very, very end mostly been doing some Witcher contracts which confirms how I felt about it before. Like, they're just sort of engaging fights, you fight the fiend, you kind of should really dodge a bit to make the fight go, he vanishes into the darkness and you track him down, just little things that make the world feel less static and more engaging.

 

It's also interesting how every Witcher contract is unique, it's frequently a new kind of enemy (ghost, agile, tough, flying, etc) as opposed to the same bandit captain, etc.

 

There are some fraustrating elements though too, still feels like I keep running into bugs, and the way Geralt moves with his momentum feels sort of awkward.

 

Oh and fall damage.

 

Fall damage.


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#556
Nefla

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I like that feature too (same in Fallout). I like to run around in 3rd person partly because it makes my character feel like someone in the world, partly because I actually like to see the person I spent way too long in the CC making, and partly because too much 1st person makes me motion-sick sometimes. But I used first person 99% of the time in combat, mostly because I could control my actions better but also because it's more immersive.

Same here! I use 3rd person when wandering around or exploring and 1st person for combat and taking a closer look at things ^_^


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#557
Sylvius the Mad

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Uh.........

 

:whistle:

There are no rules to break.  None that matter, at least.  You can just change the rules, and there's no one to stop you or complain.  If you decide the game should be different, the game can be different.

 

I don't think that can meaningfully be described as cheating.



#558
Seraphim24

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There are no rules to break.  None that matter, at least.  You can just change the rules, and there's no one to stop you or complain.  If you decide the game should be different, the game can be different.

 

I don't think that can meaningfully be described as cheating.

 

Er.......

 

:lol:

 

Ok so if a game itself calls it cheating like "game shark cheat code enter" would you still not call it cheating?



#559
BansheeOwnage

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Same here! I use 3rd person when wandering around or exploring and 1st person for combat and taking a closer look at things ^_^

Ah, right, "closer look at things" also reminded me I switch to 1st to loot all the things in a room. Much less clumsy that way.


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#560
UniformGreyColor

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I guess many people liked the bow in Skyrim at least, then.

Yes, one of my favourite aspects of Skyrim is the lack of classes, and I wish more games would do it that way. You have complete freedom to choose whatever playstyle you want, to chose any combination of skills. You can be a standard sword+shield tank, or a sword+magic user, magic only (not to mention all the different kinds of magic!), archery, stealth, etc.

 

My preferred style was to combine/alternate between a sword+shield and being stealthy with a bow, and using magic every now and then. I was basically all DA classes at once! I also liked that there was no restriction on armour types, naturally, since there are no classes. And I liked most of their designs. My favourite was the Elven armour.

 

I like that feature too (same in Fallout). I like to run around in 3rd person partly because it makes my character feel like someone in the world, partly because I actually like to see the person I spent way too long in the CC making, and partly because too much 1st person makes me motion-sick sometimes. But I used first person 99% of the time in combat, mostly because I could control my actions better but also because it's more immersive.

 

I'm sure you can see how this doesn't really work with a party based game.


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#561
AlanC9

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Ok so if a game itself calls it cheating like "game shark cheat code enter" would you still not call it cheating?

"Cheat" can be useful shorthand for, say, "modifying a game so its challenges are easier than the game's designers intended them to be." It doesn't really have much to do with how we use "cheat" when we talk about someone cheating at poker, or cheating on his wife, etc., but that's how language works.

It's like how gamers use "tactical" to describe combat that has lots of options and interrelating factors. It's not a meaning you'll find in any dictionary I've seen, but we're going to keep using the word that way until a better one comes along, because we need the concept.

#562
Realmzmaster

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Er.......

 

:lol:

 

Ok so if a game itself calls it cheating like "game shark cheat code enter" would you still not call it cheating?

 

Would it be cheating if you make the game harder rather than easier? Or are you saying that cheating is going against the original intent of the designers? That would mean that mods that make a single game harder would be cheating.

Cheating makes sense in a multi-player game where you are trying to gain an unfair advantage over others. In a single player game which affects no one else how is it cheating?

Cheating in this case is simply a word gamers use to describe a concept for lack of a better word.



#563
vbibbi

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I've played some games where the map is uncovered as you explore but no map markers exist. The player can make their own markers on the in-game map though and label them. I think that's a realistic system and a good compromise ^_^

I think that would be good for the next open world maps to allow for us to make markers. I know there's the one temporary marker right now, but AFAIK we can only have one at a time, right? It would be great if we could add multiple ones with customized headers.

 

ALSO I think the journal needs to have an editable notes section. There were so many times when there was text on the screen important to a quest but it didn't get copied into the journal or codex so there was no way to reference it again. Or a method where we can reorder codex entries, so we can group related entries together. The codex was horribly implemented here and made it very difficult to try to solve puzzles that relied on clues from entries. Chateau D'Onterre was a notable example of this.


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#564
Kabraxal

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I think that would be good for the next open world maps to allow for us to make markers. I know there's the one temporary marker right now, but AFAIK we can only have one at a time, right? It would be great if we could add multiple ones with customized headers.
 
ALSO I think the journal needs to have an editable notes section. There were so many times when there was text on the screen important to a quest but it didn't get copied into the journal or codex so there was no way to reference it again. Or a method where we can reorder codex entries, so we can group related entries together. The codex was horribly implemented here and made it very difficult to try to solve puzzles that relied on clues from entries. Chateau D'Onterre was a notable example of this.


Notes by companions on the map would be a nice too... Though maybe wait til Sera won't draw interesting pictures all over it.

#565
BansheeOwnage

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I'm sure you can see how this doesn't really work with a party based game.

I wasn't trying to say it had to (though I think it might be interesting if there were only 2 classes - mage and mundane). Heck, I liked ME's classes and there were 6 of them! I was just saying I liked the freedom it provided and wished more games would have that model. Just because I was praising an aspect of Skyrim doesn't mean I'm attacking everything else :P

 

I think that would be good for the next open world maps to allow for us to make markers. I know there's the one temporary marker right now, but AFAIK we can only have one at a time, right? It would be great if we could add multiple ones with customized headers.

 

ALSO I think the journal needs to have an editable notes section. There were so many times when there was text on the screen important to a quest but it didn't get copied into the journal or codex so there was no way to reference it again. Or a method where we can reorder codex entries, so we can group related entries together. The codex was horribly implemented here and made it very difficult to try to solve puzzles that relied on clues from entries. Chateau D'Onterre was a notable example of this.

It would certainly be nice if we could sort the codex ourselves. For example, sorting by order acquired or alphabetically. And I don't understand why they got rid of the "Mark all as read" feature. And I don't understand the point of the "New" indicator stars is they disappear as soon as we go over them instead of disappearing after hovering over them like in the past. If you are scrolling down, you have no way of knowing if you found the new entry, because the star disappears before you see it <_< Perhaps it would be better if there was also a "Mark as read" button for individual entries, so the stars wouldn't go away until you wanted them to.

 

Really, the codex needs an overhaul, if anything.

 

Edit: Most of the above applies to all of the UI in fact, like the customization menu.


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#566
Alex Hawke

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Side quests in DA:I were fun for me. There were enough context and ties to the Main Epic Story to be interested in its completion and little enough to understand that it's optional. As for companions' side quests ("collect X items, kill N opponents"), there should be more reaction from them, not just one line. And normal companions' missions were awesome.

 

Just in case, I haven't played Fallout 4, but everything randomly generated sounds boring for me. About The Witcher 3, I tried to get through notice board quests, but after one or two, I let them be forever unfinished. Though, the opinion is biased, I dislike TW3 in general.



#567
Seraphim24

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"Cheat" can be useful shorthand for, say, "modifying a game so its challenges are easier than the game's designers intended them to be." It doesn't really have much to do with how we use "cheat" when we talk about someone cheating at poker, or cheating on his wife, etc., but that's how language works.

It's like how gamers use "tactical" to describe combat that has lots of options and interrelating factors. It's not a meaning you'll find in any dictionary I've seen, but we're going to keep using the word that way until a better one comes along, because we need the concept.

Would it be cheating if you make the game harder rather than easier? Or are you saying that cheating is going against the original intent of the designers? That would mean that mods that make a single game harder would be cheating.

Cheating makes sense in a multi-player game where you are trying to gain an unfair advantage over others. In a single player game which affects no one else how is it cheating?

Cheating in this case is simply a word gamers use to describe a concept for lack of a better word.

 

The fact that you both knew what "cheating" was in a game context when I mentioned it means you both know what "cheating" is.



#568
Seraphim24

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Side quests in DA:I were fun for me. There were enough context and ties to the Main Epic Story to be interested in its completion and little enough to understand that it's optional. As for companions' side quests ("collect X items, kill N opponents"), there should be more reaction from them, not just one line. And normal companions' missions were awesome.

 

Just in case, I haven't played Fallout 4, but everything randomly generated sounds boring for me. About The Witcher 3, I tried to get through notice board quests, but after one or two, I let them be forever unfinished. Though, the opinion is biased, I dislike TW3 in general.

 

The notice board quests aren't super interesting, some are, the contracts and a smattering of non-contract ones that are tied to a particular town or area or person you stumble across can be fun and interesting.

 

No one is saying that everyone (CDPR, Bioware, etc) can't improve on some level.....

 

But seriously once you do the fairly decent number of really interesting side-quests it's quite satisfying.



#569
Nefla

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The randomly generated quests in Fallout 4 are most definitely boring and one of the companions will constantly give you new ones. Extra horrible for people who like to complete everything in their quest log because it's impossible with that companion.

I would rather do the randomly generated ones in Fallout 4 than the lost rings/goats/whatevers in DA:I since they're the same level of depth to me and I really like the combat style in FO4 vs the DA:I combat which I hate.
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#570
vbibbi

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I wasn't trying to say it had to (though I think it might be interesting if there were only 2 classes - mage and mundane). Heck, I liked ME's classes and there were 6 of them! I was just saying I liked the freedom it provided and wished more games would have that model. Just because I was praising an aspect of Skyrim doesn't mean I'm attacking everything else :P
 

It would certainly be nice if we could sort the codex ourselves. For example, sorting by order acquired or alphabetically. And I don't understand why they got rid of the "Mark all as read" feature. And I don't understand the point of the "New" indicator stars is they disappear as soon as we go over them instead of disappearing after hovering over them like in the past. If you are scrolling down, you have no way of knowing if you found the new entry, because the star disappears before you see it <_< Perhaps it would be better if there was also an "Mark as read" button for individual entries, so the stars wouldn't go away until you wanted them to.
 
Really, the codex needs an overhaul, if anything.
 
Edit: Most of the above applies to all of the UI in fact, like the customization menu.

 

I know there's a thread already devoted to the poor design of the journal and codex. But since some of the side quests rely on referencing notes we come across, I thought it worth mentioning here.

 

The randomly generated quests in Fallout 4 are most definitely boring and one of the companions will constantly give you new ones. Extra horrible for people who like to complete everything in their quest log because it's impossible with that companion.
I would rather do the randomly generated ones in Fallout 4 than the lost rings/goats/whatevers in DA:I since they're the same level of depth to me and I really like the combat style in FO4 vs the DA:I combat which I hate.


I mean, I am glad DAI didn't have endless radiant quests. That sounds awful. The first time I played I kept doing requisition quests because I thought they would end, but after that I just ignored them.
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#571
BansheeOwnage

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I know there's a thread already devoted to the poor design of the journal and codex. But since some of the side quests rely on referencing notes we come across, I thought it worth mentioning here.

Ah, okay. I guess I tend to go on unrelated rants sometimes :whistle: But yeah, the problems with the codex can be annoying for certain quests.



#572
vbibbi

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Ah, okay. I guess I tend to go on unrelated rants sometimes :whistle: But yeah, the problems with the codex can be annoying for certain quests.


Oh I wasn't implying you're going off topic. I raised the issue. Just that I'm not going to go into detail in his thread since there's already another thread devoted to the topic, and it's covered most of my thoughts already. :)

#573
AlanC9

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ALSO I think the journal needs to have an editable notes section. There were so many times when there was text on the screen important to a quest but it didn't get copied into the journal or codex so there was no way to reference it again.


It looks to me like the theory of the design --as opposed to the practice -- was to be able to pop up the related text with the "Related Codex" button so you wouldn't need notes

#574
AlanC9

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I mean, I am glad DAI didn't have endless radiant quests. That sounds awful. The first time I played I kept doing requisition quests because I thought they would end, but after that I just ignored them.


I don't follow the logic of this. How does having requisitions end make doing them a better idea?

#575
Eckswhyzed

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I mean, I am glad DAI didn't have endless radiant quests. That sounds awful. The first time I played I kept doing requisition quests because I thought they would end, but after that I just ignored them.

 

 

I don't follow the logic of this. How does having requisitions end make doing them a better idea?

 

It doesn't. If anything, it sounds like the game working as intended.

 

I personally like Radiant quests in a game like Skyrim. For me, they actually add to my immersion by creating a sense of routine for my character - if they're part of an organization like the Dawnguard or Dark Brotherhood, not every day is going to be a grand epic adventure. Some days you just have to show up to work and clear out your 20th vampire den, or murder some cheating husband, or whatever it is you do. So while they're not the most interesting tasks, for me it brings the feeling of "Yes, my Dragonborn is a vampire hunter / assassin / what have you."

 

Transplanting this to Andromeda, I think I would like these radiant quest-givers. Something like a sergeant that says "Yeah, Remnants are attacking that outpost for the hundredth time, check it out if you have the time." Nothing earth-shatteringly important, nothing that pretends to be more than it is, just give me an excuse to spend more time in a universe that I love even if it is doing busywork.


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