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[Arcian]

Time is kind of a funny thing when you start talking about space travel and relativistic speeds.    Andromeda is 2.5 million light years away.  Which means a ship travelling at light speed takes 2.5 million years to get there.     However, if you start throwing in time dilation into the mix things REALLY start to get funky since time slows down the faster you are travelling.    While on that 2.5 million year journey to get there (for the traveler), maybe 10 million years will have passed back in the milky way. (for everyone left behind)
 
The faster you go the more dilation effect.   So if they are going 10,000x the speed of light, it cuts the travel time down to 250 years, but guess what ... Millions of years still passed by in the Milky Way.  
 
So barring some instantaneous travel event like a wormhole, the human species in Andromeda will always be in the far distant future.

Mass Effect FTL doesn't cause time dilation.
 

FTL drives are devices which allow ships to travel at FTL speeds through space. FTL drive cores work by exposing element zero to electric currents, creating mass effect fields. It reduces the mass of an object, such as a starship, to a point where velocities faster than the speed of light are possible. With a mass effect drive, roughly a dozen light-years can be traversed in the course of a day's cruise without bending space-time and causing time dilation.

[Kabooooom]

Now that's actually an interesting idea. The whole idea of time travel and the implications of that in the universe would have to be thoroughly explained. However, it would be kind of neat to go back and "re-write history" in a sense by changing the events of Shepard's impact on the galaxy. That could lead to a lot of juicy fan service as well as a lot of new possibilities.

I love time travel plots as well as the next guy...if they are done well. To me, a time travel plot done well can be one of only two things: Either a) completely ignore reality and logic and make the story be what you want it to be. Or B ) make a believable, SciFi time travel plot.

An example of (a) would be Chrono Trigger. One of my favorite games of all time. They wanted a game about time travel and they gave zero shits about whether or not it made sense, because the internal logic and flow of the story made sense. This approach wouldn't work for a game like Mass Effect.

An example of (b ) or at least the one that most readily comes to my mind due to the recent nature of it, would be the stable time-loop from Interstellar. This was an idea that not only doesn't violate causality (because it is purely deterministic backwards time travel) but also doesn't violate general relativity. This is why the concept is so appealing to physicists like Kip Thorne.

An idea like that would definitely fit into a SciFi game like Mass Effect. Mass Effect plays loose with the physics, but takes itself seriously, and only serious and internally consistent science fiction concepts should be introduced into a story like that...whether or not they have bearing on reality.

This is especially true for something like time travel, since the logic of it can be easily examined to break down unless certain conditions are met - whether or not the mechanism of the time travel is realistically feasible. In other words, time travel to the past is something that fundamental violates logic and causality unless you deliberately construct a situation in which it doesnt, like a stable time loop.

I would welcome such a thing in Mass Effect, but hopefully I've pointed out why they would have to do it carefully...otherwise it would clash with the setting majorly.

[Arcian]

This is Mass Effect we are talking about. Do you think it matters if ME1-3 stated intergalactic travel wasn't possible at the time? Look at the reapers. It's space magic. Space voodoo. Half of the nonsense that happened in the games wasn't based on some in-depth understanding of the laws of science. Drew Karpyshyn, the lead writer on ME1 and ME2, even admitted a lot of this stuff was space magic and purposely mysterious in order to draw interest and appeal. Not everything, including intergalactic travel, needs to be explained.

Source? I've heard the exact opposite from Chris L'Etoile. He's said they worked very hard to make the game as realistic as possible while still being a space opera with FTL, artificial gravity and aliens.
 

ME3's ending was already controversial enough. Do you really think the writers wouldn't take creative liberties just to avoid
dealing with that ending? Come on. Andromeda was an excuse to not deal with the Milky Way. Of course there was no intergalactic travel at the time because the writers didn't think ME3's ending would blow up in their faces. Except, by still staying in the Milky Way centuries later, they still have to explain the endings.

No they don't. They can literally go "Gosh, good thing they defeated the Reapers back then so society could rebuild." and leave it at that. No details needed whatsoever.
 

If the ARK launches between ME2 and ME3, which the teaser trailer suggests, they can completely avoid dealing with ME3 entirely.

Ah, but it doesn't suggest this! This is your subjective interpretation, based entirely on the fact that Femshep is doing the voiceover. It could just as well be launching 4-5 centuries AFTER ME3. Shepard's voiceover is ultimately symbolic (reinforced by the NASA footage), not representative of the in-game reality.

As I described above, they can just continue the Milky Way galaxy and pretend like the specific endings never happened. If people talk about the events of ME3, just have them say "Yep, the Reapers were defeated and the galaxy was able to rebuild." and leave out all the details. The reason why they're not going this route is because there is a certain someone in the BioWare writing department who had a hand in writing these endings, and he doesn't want to undo them, ignore them or deal with them because he is proud of them, considering them representative of his amazing skills as a writer. He is blocking a very simple solution to a very serious problem solely to satisfy his own bloated ego, no matter how many fans it hurts. His name rhymes with Pack Salters, and he would feel right at home in the US Congress.
 

I bolded the parts that suggest this move could have been partially motivated by the reapers.

Once again, they do not suggest this. You are subjectively interpreting it in a way that fits your desired hypothesis. It's a textbook case of confirmation bias.
 

Again, as someone else stated earlier, Andromeda could have already been in development and was re-purposed with an accelerated time table to escape the reaper invasion. As far as your comparison towards our sun becoming a super nova, highly unlikely. That won't be happening until billions of years from now and Mass Effect does not take place that far into the future from current day.

You're missing the point. Shepard is talking to US about OUR space exploration endeavours in real life (reinforced by the NASA footage), not to the crew of the Ark about THEIR expedition. The primary motivation for colonizing another star system in real life is to avoid the inevitable destruction of our home system. That's what she's referring to. Shepard is basically urging us, from a very meta-perspective, to get of our asses and go back into deep space. Sci-fi is just the expression of our yearning for the future.

And actually, our planet will become inhospitable (but not completely barren, thanks to hardy bacteria) in about 500 million years because of the rising temperature from the sun. Yes, the sun will not expand and swallow the earth until 5 billion years from now, but by the time it does, all life on Earth (including the bacteria) will have been dead for a very, very long time.
 

I really don't believe this is a message to the audience which you seem to believe.

Of course you don't, you think the Pre-ME3 Ark Theory is a good idea and you want it to be true. That's your right, but do yourself a favor and wait for more substantial evidence before formulating a serious theory. An 87 second teaser trailer is not substantial evidence for anything.

And I don't really believe anything, I am simply looking at the precedent here. BioWare has NEVER dropped major story hints in their early trailers, and certainly not in their teasers. What the N7 teaser is teasing is the overaching theme of the upcoming game (exploration), a CGI representation of the ship that will transport us (as players, not as in-game characters) from the Milky Way to Andromeda, and POSSIBLY an easter egg with the name of the player character or some other important character. That's it. The Shepard voiceover isn't a teaser, it's basically fanservice to Shepard-fans upset over the ME3 endings, and it is written to reinforce the NASA footage. If she was actually adressing the crew, why would she be talking like a Discovery documentary? Counting it as evidence of the Ark Theory just hurts the credibility of your methodology.
 

I think this is entirely a message to the crew of the ARK. We even have the dog tag with the name "Ryder" on it, which many suggest is the new protagonist's surname.

Yeah, it's an easter egg. Not evidence for some wild theory cooked up by BioWare fans starving for another 60 dollar disappointment.
 

I think you are being overly-critical and letting the marketing campaign of the game get in the way of the actual message.

I think you are MISSING the actual message. You are so desperate for this trailer to validate the Pre-ME3 Ark Theory that you are completely ignoring other, more likely hypotheses. The NASA archive footage is obviously meant to appeal to our appreciation of real life space exploration history. What point would there be for Shepard and the Ark Project leads to show 20th century NASA archive footage to the crew of the Ark, especially when they're supposedly running from the Reapers? Right, none. That implies the addition is symbolic, just as Shepard's voiceover has been written to fit that footage, not to inspire some lucky popsicles to run away from the Reaper threat.
 

Again, reasonable minds may differ, but I think there is a lot more to this teaser than you realize.

That's what people have said about literally every single trailer, let alone teaser, BioWare has put out, and they've been wrong. Every. Single. Time.
 
BioWare doesn't do massive story hints in trailers, mainly because:
 
1) They're not very good at it.
2) Someone may actually figure it out, especially due to 1).
 

We'll find out soon enough but it's seems quite likely the ARK departed the galaxy before the reapers arrived to invade Earth.

No, it's not "quite likely", because it would break the precedent of the lore. Your Pre-ME3 Ark Theory basically hinges on BioWare willfully tossing their own lore in the bin. Is it possible they may have done so? Abso-f**king-lutely, especially given their recent track record. But that would pretty much kill their narrative credibility. Asspulls are the tools of inept writers, and BioWare needs fewer of them than they currently have.

[Revan Reborn]

<snip>

"Reasonable minds may differ." What you are failing to realize is while I am imbuing my own subjective belief on this trailer, so are you.

 

I believe this trailer is entirely related to the lore and beginning events of MEA. You believe it's purely just fan service with cuts from NASA footage because BioWare decided to do it for fun I guess.

 

The simple truth is, neither of us holds the "truth" because neither one of us can disprove the other. We simply do not have enough evidence and we won't know the truth until the game is released.

 

If you are such a critic of Mac Walters, why are you even interested in MEA? You realize he is the Creative Director for MEA? Meaning, he took over Casey Hudson's role for the franchise. He may not be writing the story this time around, but he is still very much at the center of crafting the Mass Effect universe.

 

You are going to take Chris L'Etoile's word over Drew Karpyshyn? The guy actually responsible for most of the Mass Effect universe and its inception? Your priority.

 

For someone so incredibly hateful towards BioWare's writing competency, it really does make me wonder why you even care or are here to start.

[Rocks_and_shoals]

So is the basis for the two different theories about when the ARK is launched based on this:

 

1. The ARK is launched during the ME trilogy to escape from the reapers. The evidence for this is the Shepard voiceover in the MEA trailer.

 

2. The ARK was launched centuries after the ME trilogy because 1) They didn't have the technology during ME to launch an ARK to another galaxy and if they did, it would undermine the entire ME trilogy story and all the ME lore because if species could develop intergalactic travel during the time of the harvests, then they would probably escape and the entire ability of the catalyst to control its galactic experiment would fail.

I mean not being able to escape the reapers or the harvest is like a cornerstone of the lore of the entire ME universe. It was entrapment. But lets throw that to the wind in a mistake even more epic than the ending of ME3 if that's a plot point for Andromeda.

 

Am I missing something here? All they had were FTLs that could go a few dozen lightyears before discharging, making it difficult to traverse the galaxy without relays let along attempt to travel to another galaxy. If they were able to leave for another galaxy, it would be a bif F**k you to the ME lore and the reaper/catalyst plans.

[Revan Reborn]

So is the basis for the two different theories about when the ARK is launched based on this:

 

1. The ARK is launched during the ME trilogy to escape from the reapers. The evidence for this is the Shepard voiceover in the MEA trailer.

 

2. The ARK was launched centuries after the ME trilogy because 1) They didn't have the technology during ME to launch an ARK to another galaxy and if they did, it would undermine the entire ME trilogy story and all the ME lore because if species could develop intergalactic travel during the time of the harvests, then they would probably escape and the entire ability of the catalyst to control its galactic experiment would fail.

I mean not being able to escape the reapers or the harvest is like a cornerstone of the lore of the entire ME universe. It was entrapment. But lets throw that to the wind in a mistake even more epic than the ending of ME3 if that's a plot point for Andromeda.

 

Am I missing something here? All they had were FTLs that could go a few dozen lightyears before discharging, making it difficult to traverse the galaxy without relays let along attempt to travel to another galaxy. If they were able to leave for another galaxy, it would be a bif F**k you to the ME lore and the reaper/catalyst plans.

Personal preferences and inferences are not "evidence." While you may not like the idea of MEA occurring before the events of ME3, it's quite possible that's actually the case. Who's to say that intergalactic travel has been incorporated in ships outside the ARK? Who's to say it was even financially possible to build other ARKs? The Normandy SR-1 was a unique frigate with no other ship in the galaxy like it. The same logic could very well apply to the ARK, which can't house the entire galaxy. We have no idea the kinds of resources and manpower it would have even required to build the ARK.

 

The only people who would feel burned by the lore are those who cannot seem to realize that the lore is constantly evolving and expanding. Nothing is set in stone, and contrary to what you believe, you are not an expert on all things Mass Effect. Nobody here is. We only know as much as BioWare tells us and they are the ones that determine what is lore, what is feasible, and where we go next.

[Rocks_and_shoals]

Its not a personal preference or inference. Its just a cornerstone of the lore for the story of the ME universe to make sense. If people had intergalactic travel capabilities it undermines the power of the reapers and the catalyst.

Imagine if someone in a previous cycle also developed intergalactic travel, they could leave the galaxy and one day return to warn the races about the reapers. Or the species would escape the galaxy beyond the reach of the reapers, develop hostile AI and threaten the survival of the galaxy if the AI decided to return home.

The catalysts mission to protect organic life just wouldn't work if that were the case. That's all I'm saying.

 

Also the scope of the ARK project would be the equivalent or greater than the building of the crucible. The entire galaxy was building the crucible. I don't see how its possible given the technology shown to us and the time frame given that the council didn't believe Shepard until the Reapers arrived. So they had about a year to build a massive intergalactic ship, far beyond any technology we've seen so far in ME in secret. That doesn't make sense from a story perspective.

[AlleyD]

Personal preferences and inferences are not "evidence." While you may not like the idea of MEA occurring before the events of ME3, it's quite possible that's actually the case. Who's to say that intergalactic travel has been incorporated in ships outside the ARK? Who's to say it was even financially possible to build other ARKs? The Normandy SR-1 was a unique frigate with no other ship in the galaxy like it. The same logic could very well apply to the ARK, which can't house the entire galaxy. We have no idea the kinds of resources and manpower it would have even required to build the ARK.

 

The only people who would feel burned by the lore are those who cannot seem to realize that the lore is constantly evolving and expanding. Nothing is set in stone, and contrary to what you believe, you are not an expert on all things Mass Effect. Nobody here is. We only know as much as BioWare tells us and they are the ones that determine what is lore, what is feasible, and where we go next.

 

I agree, It's a ficitional world that was based on the rule "miracles happen".

• Humanity understood ME physics in a year in the lore of the MW. Start of the Miracles Happen rule in ME. (I know it is a combination of 2 tropes Technological Uplift and Alien Phlebetonium or, more techically a Skyhook event on Tech evolution.)
• In Me1, We need to empower the hero. I know "miracles Happen" Let's say some weird, mind thingy alien thing goes boom in our face enables our little hero to be unique and special. At this point , the character is so bland due to RPG restrictions, it takes a miracle event for the story to happen.
• In Me2 We need to rest the hero for all those happy new gamers that will LOVE this new Mass Effect direction. How do we level a hero in a way kiddies could absorb, then bring them back to life as a noob? I know, miracles happen in Mass Effect. Let's kill him in the most dramatic way we can to make it Cool for kiddies, forget the past and pray that our little slide show FX of medical science convince people to forget the previous Artist formerly known as Shepard. Here is another miracle that happens in the preciously sacred creation of the MEMW.
• In ME3 Well, I think enough has been said about Miracles Happen. The meme phrase "space magic" is usually applied, but it should be "miracles Happen in Mass Effect" they always have

 

It's the one consistant rule in all 3 ME's in the MW. Yet, the ARk is possibly even more believable than those Miracles. It is a double standard to decry the ARK or any other plot movement device in ME, the whole series was built on it.

[Revan Reborn]

I agree, It's a ficitional world that was based on the rule "miracles happen".

• Humanity understood ME physics in a year in the lore of the MW. Start of the Miracles Happen rule in ME. (I know it is a combination of 2 tropes Technological Uplift and Alien Phlebetonium or, more techically a Skyhook event on Tech evolution.)
• In Me1, We need to empower the hero. I know "miracles Happen" Let's say some weird, mind thingy alien thing goes boom in our face enables our little hero to be unique and special. At this point , the character is so bland due to RPG restrictions, it takes a miracle event for the story to happen.
• In Me2 We need to rest the hero for all those happy new gamers that will LOVE this new Mass Effect direction. How do we level a hero in a way kiddies could absorb, then bring them back to life as a noob? I know, miracles happen in Mass Effect. Let's kill him in the most dramatic way we can to make it Cool for kiddies, forget the past and pray that our little slide show FX of medical science convince people to forget the previous Artist formerly known as Shepard. Here is another miracle that happens in the preciously sacred creation of the MEMW.
• In ME3 Well, I think enough has been said about Miracles Happen. The meme phrase "space magic" is usually applied, but it should be "miracles Happen in Mass Effect" they always have

 

It's the one consistant rule in all 3 ME's in the MW. Yet, the ARk is possibly even more believable than those Miracles. It is a double standard to decry the ARK or any other plot movement device in ME, the whole series was built on it.

Exactly, which is why theories that take Mass Effect far too literally or seriously always fall on their face, in my opinion. Mass Effect isn't Star Trek or Blade Runner. This isn't a science fiction or cyberpunk IP that is even remotely realistic or even attempts to be. When you try to apply real world principles to fictitious art, you run the risk of missing the point of what the IP is actually about.

 

Mass Effect is more akin to Star Wars, a space opera, in which there is plenty of "space magic" and "miracles." But, what ultimately makes the IP interesting is the relationships and the obstacles the heroes must overcome. This isn't surprising that Star Wars was likely the biggest inspiration for Mass Effect, considering the team who developed ME1-3 was the same team who just made Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic previously.

 

As I was discussing in another thread, Shepard's character was based off of Revan and even the initial script for ME1 was largely similar to KotOR 1. Drew Karpyshyn, the lead writer who created Revan as well as Shepard, even wanted to have a similar plot twist in ME1 like the major reveal in KotOR 1. The plot twist was ultimately abandoned, but what the player was going to learn through the course of ME1 is that Shepard wasn't actually human at all. This would have explained his ability to survive the prothean beacons as well as much of the other Mary Sue "miracle moments" that permeated throughout the game as well as the rest of the trilogy.

 

It's amazing how passionate fans of Mass Effect are and I would never tell anyone not to enjoy the franchise to the fullest. It is by far one of my favorite video game franchises and the trilogy is without a doubt one of the best video game experiences I have ever had the pleasure of embarking on. It's just important to be able to separate yourself from your own bias and recognize that much of what happened in the trilogy was merely to move the plot forward. Remember, the reapers were entirely space magic and an unknown entity for the entire trilogy. Ironically, it wasn't until the Leviathan DLC - months after ME3 already concluded - that we truly understood what the reapers were and what their motivations were derived from. Even now, we can't fully contemplate the full extent of reaper technology or how they became so advanced, even beyond the leviathans.

 

As long as people recognize anything is truly possible with Mass Effect and the only limit is your own bias or imagination, then you will finally begin to realize what's truly important about these games. It's not whether space travel is grounded in realism or conforms with the law of general relativity as we understand them. It's about the characters, their relationships, and how they grow together (or fall apart) based on their experiences in this truly incredible galaxy BioWare has created.

[Original Mako]

Thanks! Give it a read, though I should probably stop lingering on the past...but if I ever have some billions to spare and could get my hands on the rights for the Mass-Effect-franchise ... nah, first I have to make that Star Wars prequel-remake happen!

 

I'll start saving up.

[Rocks_and_shoals]

Ok but theres the premise that miracles happen and theres theres bad storytelling. The miracles happen was used to move plot points forward but none of them contradicted established ME lore.

If they developed some kind of intergalactic drive between ME1-ME3, even though it was clearly shown that they hadn't that technology and not even the powerful Prothean empire which was supposed to be more advanced than all the races in the current cycle has even approached that level of technology ( they instead only started developing the first prototype mass relay). then that isn't space magic, its just very bad story telling that's jarring to the entire franchise.

I'm not asking them to explain how it was done but I do expect that pre-established lore in their own story is respected. That's the basic structure of a good story. You can't just stick space magic in and begin to tie yourself in knots with lore because the fan base will call you out on it as they did with the ME3 ending.

 

It can easily be avoided by saying the trip to Andromeda took place many centuries afterwards and use 'space magic' to explain away how without risking a reaction from the fan base. They can use another reason to go to Andromeda. That makes more sense to me then all of your suppositions.

[Revan Reborn]

Ok but theres the premise that miracles happen and theres theres bad storytelling. The miracles happen was used to move plot points forward but none of them contradicted established ME lore.

If they developed some kind of intergalactic drive between ME1-ME3, even though it was clearly shown that they hadn't that technology and not even the powerful Prothean empire which was supposed to be more advanced than all the races in the current cycle has even approached that level of technology ( they instead only started developing the first prototype mass relay). then that isn't space magic, its just very bad story telling that's jarring to the entire franchise.

I'm not asking them to explain how it was done but I do expect that pre-established lore in their own story is respected. That's the basic structure of a good story. You can't just stick space magic in and begin to tie yourself in knots with lore because the fan base will call you out on it as they did with the ME3 ending.

 

It can easily be avoided by saying the trip to Andromeda took place many centuries afterwards and use 'space magic' to explain away how without risking a reaction from the fan base. They can use another reason to go to Andromeda. That makes more sense to me then all of your suppositions.

It's "bad writing" in your opinion. BioWare can do whatever it wants. If they want to override established lore, they can do that. If they merely just want the plot to move forward without a convoluted and unnecessary explanation, they can do that.

 

What you fail to realize is that a "miracle" for one gamer might be "bad writing" to another. It's purely subjective and you cannot categorize it in any meaningful, objective setting. You clearly did not like the direction the story went, so of course you think it's "bad writing."

 

The fan base called BioWare out with ME3's ending because it was a curve ball with no explanation with a decision that changed everything forever. It was completely unexpected and a terrible way to execute what was the ending of an amazing trilogy. As far as the actual concept of the catalyst and its control over the reapers, I fail to realize how that's somehow unreasonable when the reapers were always space magic.

 

Truth be told, it's likely only a vocal minority on BSN who are obsessed with the lore. Most fans who are going to buy these games don't care. They just want a good game with a good story. Leaving before the events of ME3 at least is interesting and makes perfect sense. Leaving the Milky Way centuries later just seems odd and I'm not convince that's the direction BioWare is going. We have never been given that indication by anything.

 

Well of course your assumptions make more sense to you than mine.

[Rocks_and_shoals]

It's "bad writing" in your opinion. BioWare can do whatever it wants. If they want to override established lore, they can do that. If they merely just want the plot to move forward without a convoluted and unnecessary explanation, they can do that.

 

What you fail to realize is that a "miracle" for one gamer might be "bad writing" to another. It's purely subjective and you cannot categorize it in any meaningful, objective setting. You clearly did not like the direction the story went, so of course you think it's "bad writing."

 

The fan base called BioWare out with ME3's ending because it was a curve ball with no explanation with a decision that changed everything forever. It was completely unexpected and a terrible way to execute what was the ending of an amazing trilogy. As far as the actual concept of the catalyst and its control over the reapers, I fail to realize how that's somehow unreasonable when the reapers were always space magic.

 

Truth be told, it's likely only a vocal minority on BSN who are obsessed with the lore. Most fans who are going to buy these games don't care. They just want a good game with a good story. Leaving before the events of ME3 at least is interesting and makes perfect sense. Leaving the Milky Way centuries later just seems odd and I'm not convince that's the direction BioWare is going. We have never been given that indication by anything.

 

Well of course your assumptions make more sense to you than mine.

 

 

 

Forget about Mass effect for a moment. To backtrack on the pre-established principles in the world created in a story is bad writing by anyone about anything. A writer can't just write about anything, it has to make sense. All the events in Mass Effect which you consider 'space magic' are Deus ex Machina rather than paradoxical contradictions. To have an intersteller drive all of a sudden, even though it has been established before that they didn't have that technology and were very far from developing any technology like it is a paradox. The difference between Deus ex machina and a paradox is that one is contrived but doesn't negate any pre-established plot points, the second directly contraficts the plot points of the story. So, no its not an opinion, its just basic writing skill which people are taught.

 

In terms of writing it is bad form to have this paradox just so that they can say the reason to travel to Andromeda is to escape the reapers than rectify this paradox by making it a Dues ex machina by saying its 500 years later and have another reason to travel to Andromeda that they will explain.

[Revan Reborn]

Forget about Mass effect for a moment. To backtrack on the pre-established principles in the world created in a story is bad writing by anyone about anything. A writer can't just write about anything, it has to make sense. All the events in Mass Effect which you consider 'space magic' are Deus ex Machina rather than paradoxical contradictions. To have an intersteller drive all of a sudden, even though it has been established before that they didn't have that technology and were very far from developing any technology like it is a paradox. The difference between Deus ex machina and a paradox is that one is contrived but doesn't negate any pre-established plot points, the second directly contraficts the plot points of the story. So, no its not an opinion, its just basic writing skill which people are taught.

 

In terms of writing it is bad form to have this paradox just so that they can say the reason to travel to Andromeda is to escape the reapers than rectify this paradox by making it a Dues ex machina by saying its 500 years later and have another reason to travel to Andromeda that they will explain.

You act as if BioWare has stated every single game in large, bold font INTERGALACTIC SPACE TRAVEL IS NOT POSSIBLE AND CANNOT HAPPEN. To my knowledge, none of the games have even remotely addressed it. Maybe in codex entries? The only hint that intergalactic travel might be possible is the fact the reapers lurked in "dark space," which just seems to be anything outside the Milky Way. We honestly just don't know enough and to state BioWare is "spitting on their lore" is a bit ridiculous when most of what we are addressing hasn't even been tackled. You seem to forget that the franchise of Mass Effect is largely just three games centered around Shepard and then some expanded universe content via comics or novels. This isn't Star Wars where there is a massive Expanded Universe (now defunct) that dwarfs the content of the films.

 

Again, your position is inherently flawed because you are making assumptions about the franchise that BioWare has never articulated or presented. It is your own biased, pre-conceived notions that prevent you from accepting the fact that the ARK could have very well launched pre-ME3 and not "spit on the lore." We just don't know enough and to continue this cyclical discussion is pointless and counterproductive.

[Mummy22kids]

My theory is Andromeda will take place (start) during the 2 years between ME1 and ME2 when Shepard is dead.

[Rocks_and_shoals]

You act as if BioWare has stated every single game in large, bold font INTERGALACTIC SPACE TRAVEL IS NOT POSSIBLE AND CANNOT HAPPEN. To my knowledge, none of the games have even remotely addressed it. Maybe in codex entries? The only hint that intergalactic travel might be possible is the fact the reapers lurked in "dark space," which just seems to be anything outside the Milky Way. We honestly just don't know enough and to state BioWare is "spitting on their lore" is a bit ridiculous when most of what we are addressing hasn't even been tackled. You seem to forget that the franchise of Mass Effect is largely just three games centered around Shepard and then some expanded universe content via comics or novels. This isn't Star Wars where there is a massive Expanded Universe (now defunct) that dwarfs the content of the films.

 

Again, your position is inherently flawed because you are making assumptions about the franchise that BioWare has never articulated or presented. It is your own biased, pre-conceived notions that prevent you from accepting the fact that the ARK could have very well launched pre-ME3 and not "spit on the lore." We just don't know enough and to continue this cyclical discussion is pointless and counterproductive.

 

Yes I think this is the problem, you're not aware of the codex entries. In the game, they did very much state the limitations of space travel.The codex entries talking about 'element 0 faster than light' drives. They say one reason why people need to use mass relays is because an FTL drive only takes a ship a maximum of up to 30 light-years and the drive must be discharged once every 50 hours. While in flight, a charge builds up in the drive which must be discharged into a planets magnetic field or a space station like the citadel. If a ship were to travel in dark space, say for intergalactic travel, there is no way to discharge this energy. At some point, the codex says, if the energy is not released it is instead discharged into the hull of the ship causing your ship to blow up.

 

That's why protheans were experimenting with mass relays to travel further. Now you see what I mean by they would be backtracking on their lore if suddenly they overcome this limitation of FTL travel when not even the protheans could? Its an intrinsic part of a mass effect drive. That limitation was probably one of the reasons the reapers made species develop mass effect technology so they would be trapped in the MW and within the mass relay network which they used during the cycles to isolate systems which they invaded as stated by Javik. It was a plotpoint of how the cycles were set up to trap species for harvest.
 

[Revan Reborn]

Yes I think this is the problem, you're not aware of the codex entries. In the game, they did very much state the limitations of space travel.The codex entries talking about 'element 0 faster than light' drives. They say one reason why people need to use mass relays is because an FTL drive only takes a ship a maximum of up to 30 light-years and the drive must be discharged once every 50 hours. While in flight, a charge builds up in the drive which must be discharged into a planets magnetic field or a space station like the citadel. If a ship were to travel in dark space, say for intergalactic travel, there is no way to discharge this energy. At some point, the codex says, if the energy is not released it is instead discharged into the hull of the ship causing your ship to blow up.

 

That's why protheans were experimenting with mass relays to travel further. Now you see what I mean by they would be backtracking on their lore if suddenly they overcome this limitation of FTL travel when not even the protheans could? Its an intrinsic part of a mass effect drive. That limitation was probably one of the reasons the reapers made species develop mass effect technology so they would be trapped in the MW and within the mass relay network which they used during the cycles to isolate systems which they invaded as stated by Javik.
 

You do realize codex entries are there to supplement the main game, but their inclusion does not mean they cannot be overridden in the future. BioWare retconned major events of the actual story. Regardless of what a codex entry may have said in ME1, design choices change and BioWare might go a different direction contrary to the codex entries.

 

Here's the problem. All of these codex entries were made so the game would focus on the Milky Way as the setting and "Dark Space" as this unknown and dangerous element the reapers came from. This explanation of intergalactic space travel being impossible made sense as the entire trilogy takes place exclusively in the Milky Way. Now that we are leaving to go to another galaxy, such limitations are no longer necessary or needed.

 

It would be backtracking if BioWare decided Shepard didn't exist and decided to reboot the franchise and go an entirely different direction. This should not be compared with previous codex entries, of which are supplemental only, being revised in order to tell new stories going forward. The problem is you are overstating the importance of what is largely a minor and insignificant facet of the franchise. Mass Effect is not about the limitations of space travel and being stuck in the Milky Way. Mass Effect, so far, has been about Commander Shepard and how he stopped the reapers. Now, Andromeda is taking a new direction by incorporating intergalactic travel. This is not "spitting on the lore," but instead adding to it.

 

The only reason you are entirely against this idea is because you cannot fathom a justification for the explanation of intergalactic travel just because a few codex entries said it wasn't possible at that point in time. It's worth noting codex entries do not explain everything. They help fill in blanks and provide more context, but rarely do they ever give all the answers. Your problem is you just assume the codex entries tell you everything there is to know and there is no way something is possible which does not conform to what they've expressed previously.

[Rocks_and_shoals]

You do realize codex entries are there to supplement the main game, but their inclusion does not mean they cannot be overridden in the future. BioWare retconned major events of the actual story. Regardless of what a codex entry may have said in ME1, design choices change and BioWare might go a different direction contrary to the codex entries.

 

Here's the problem. All of these codex entries were made so the game would focus on the Milky Way as the setting and "Dark Space" as this unknown and dangerous element the reapers came from. This explanation of intergalactic space travel being impossible made sense as the entire trilogy takes place exclusively in the Milky Way. Now that we are leaving to go to another galaxy, such limitations are no longer necessary or needed.

 

It would be backtracking if BioWare decided Shepard didn't exist and decided to reboot the franchise and go an entirely different direction. This should not be compared with previous codex entries, of which are supplemental only, being revised in order to tell new stories going forward. The problem is you are overstating the importance of what is largely a minor and insignificant facet of the franchise. Mass Effect is not about the limitations of space travel and being stuck in the Milky Way. Mass Effect, so far, has been about Commander Shepard and how he stopped the reapers. Now, Andromeda is taking a new direction by incorporating intergalactic travel. This is not "spitting on the lore," but instead adding to it.

 

The only reason you are entirely against this idea is because you cannot fathom a justification for the explanation of intergalactic travel just because a few codex entries said it wasn't possible at that point in time. It's worth noting codex entries do not explain everything. They help fill in blanks and provide more context, but rarely do they ever give all the answers. Your problem is you just assume the codex entries tell you everything there is to know and there is no way something is possible which does not conform to what they've expressed previously.

I'm sorry but that argument doesn't make sense. Its a pretty well established piece of ME lore that even has its own article in Mass effect Wiki, You can't just decide to change what has been established about technology in the game. If you do, you are in danger of creating plot holes. The codex entries I speak of are in mass effect 2 so they're not something that was initially thought up and then put in. Even though it is stated in ME2, the drive charge has been seen all the way back to the original mission in ME1 on Eden Prime when Sovereign was lifting off from the colony.

 

But suppose you are right and they did somehow overcome issues with their FTL drives. Why didn't they just leave when the reapers showed up, particularly the quarians and go to another part of the galaxy? The mass relay network only makes up 1% of the MW. There would be nothing stopping them from evacuating to another part of the galaxy without mass relays or reapers. With 400 billion stars, I'd say the reapers would have a hard time finding them. That's why they introduced the drive charge in as a plot point in the ME trilogy. To make races rely on the mass relay network for long distance travel. Then the reapers just come in and clean up. Shut down Mass relays to isolate fleets. That was the whole point of the story, the citadel and the mass relays were a trap set by the reapers.

If they can just up and run as they pleased to wherever, I don't see how that's not a plot hole in the story?

 

Even in ME2 and ME3, they talk about the mass relay the reapers had to use as a backdoor in from dark space, the batarian relay. Why bother when they could just fly into the galaxy and begin the harvest. They travel at 30 light years a day so it would have taken them..what? 5 years to arrive just by using FTL if they were 60,000 light years into dark space for instance?

 

It would be like the awful episode in Star trek voyager where they went to warp 10, and then no one ever spoke of it again.

[fizzypop]

Rocks, you are assuming that they cannot do it physically. I have always gotten that it is possible to travel to other galaxies, but wasn't viable and feasible for regular travel which is why they decided against it/not to develop. But a one way trip? Not difficult. **** you don't even have to use FTL if they were held in stasis or generational ship traveling to another galaxy would be feasible. Stasis or generational ships would have been well within the technological advances of ME 2 and 3. I mean the quarians had lived on ships for years. No matter how they travel to the galaxy a TON of time will have to pass for it to be even remotely believable. So it doesn't really matter when they travel because a significant amount of time has to pass. MEA is not going to be going back to Milky way which makes it even more believable that this type of transportation is a one way trip. Which makes it easily feasible for it to happen in the events of ME 2 or 3.

I don't really know if it did or not. I don't really care, but it is certainly possible. It would be the easiest way to avoid having to deal with the ME3 endings. If they did it AFTER ME3 they would have to address ME3 endings. I mean you can't really ignore it otherwise. No matter even if its million of years in the future people are still going to want to address those endings. If you didn't that would certainly ****** of fans and make them feel robbed even more. If they are smart they will avoid having to deal with it.

The only way I could see them deciding to take that chance is if they are going to go into dark energy and the possibility of the Milky way dying or becoming uninhabitable for some reason. Still that would leave them having to address the endings in some way or negate the endings entirely (which would ****** people off). So really if they were smart they would just make it something that was launched in ME2/3. That way they are "normal" humans/normal species. 

[Revan Reborn]

I'm sorry but that argument doesn't make sense. Its a pretty well established piece of ME lore that even has its own article in Mass effect Wiki, You can't just decide to change what has been established about technology in the game. If you do, you are in danger of creating plot holes. The codex entries I speak of are in mass effect 2 so they're not something that was initially thought up and then put in. Even though it is stated in ME2, the drive charge has been seen all the way back to the original mission in ME1 on Eden Prime when Sovereign was lifting off from the colony.

 

But suppose you are right and they did somehow overcome issues with their FTL drives. Why didn't they just leave when the reapers showed up, particularly the quarians and go to another part of the galaxy? The mass relay network only makes up 1% of the MW. There would be nothing stopping them from evacuating to another part of the galaxy without mass relays or reapers. With 400 billion stars, I'd say the reapers would have a hard time finding them. That's why they introduced the drive charge in as a plot point in the ME trilogy. To make races rely on the mass relay network for long distance travel. Then the reapers just come in and clean up. Shut down Mass relays to isolate fleets. That was the whole point of the story, the citadel and the mass relays were a trap set by the reapers.

If they can just up and run as they pleased to wherever, I don't see how that's not a plot hole in the story?

 

Even in ME2 and ME3, they talk about the mass relay the reapers had to use as a backdoor in from dark space, the batarian relay. Why bother when they could just fly into the galaxy and begin the harvest. They travel at 30 light years a day so it would have taken them..what? 5 years to arrive just by using FTL if they were 60,000 light years into dark space for instance?

 

It would be like the awful episode in Star trek voyager where they went to warp 10, and then no one ever spoke of it again.

Wikis are fan-made creations. They are by no means credible nor are they reliable. Anyone could edit them. Who's to say the ARK is even using a technology that was present in ME1-3? If you look at the design of the ARK, it looks very similar to the Citadel in many ways. It's quite possible the ship is either based off the Citadel's design or perhaps it was based off of Sovereign. All of his parts were confiscated on the Citadel, after all. For all we know, the ARK could very well be the galaxy's own version of a reaper, more or less.

 

Again, who's to say the galaxy had the means of making this technology widely available? If the ARK is based off of Sovereign's design, it is very likely it is one of a kind and cannot be easily replicated. I understand entirely why the Mass Relays and the Citadel existed. They are nothing more than metaphorical mice traps with cheese as an incentive to go near them. Again, the reapers seemed capable of intergalactic travel, at least longer distance travel than what was achieved by any species in the Milky Way. We have no idea where the reapers came from in Dark Space and how long they traveled.

 

Arrival was nothing more than a plot point meant to bridge the cap between ME2 and ME3. It was a matter of convenience in order to put Shepard under house arrest on Earth so that the beginning of ME3 would actually make sense. The reapers were coming either way and the galaxy would not have been prepared.

[Rocks_and_shoals]

Rocks, you are assuming that they cannot do it physically. I have always gotten that it is possible to travel to other galaxies, but wasn't viable and feasible for regular travel which is why they decided against it/not to develop. But a one way trip? Not difficult. **** you don't even have to use FTL if they were held in stasis or generational ship traveling to another galaxy would be feasible. Stasis or generational ships would have been well within the technological advances of ME 2 and 3. I mean the quarians had lived on ships for years. No matter how they travel to the galaxy a TON of time will have to pass for it to be even remotely believable. So it doesn't really matter when they travel because a significant amount of time has to pass. MEA is not going to be going back to Milky way which makes it even more believable that this type of transportation is a one way trip. Which makes it easily feasible for it to happen in the events of ME 2 or 3.

I don't really know if it did or not. I don't really care, but it is certainly possible. It would be the easiest way to avoid having to deal with the ME3 endings. If they did it AFTER ME3 they would have to address ME3 endings. I mean you can't really ignore it otherwise. No matter even if its million of years in the future people are still going to want to address those endings. If you didn't that would certainly ****** of fans and make them feel robbed even more. If they are smart they will avoid having to deal with it.

The only way I could see them deciding to take that chance is if they are going to go into dark energy and the possibility of the Milky way dying or becoming uninhabitable for some reason. Still that would leave them having to address the endings in some way or negate the endings entirely (which would ****** people off). So really if they were smart they would just make it something that was launched in ME2/3. That way they are "normal" humans/normal species. 

 

 

 

The problem with this is that Andromeda is 2 million light years away. So even if you are travelling at the speed of light which they can't do, its a 2 million year trip. And if they are travelling at sublight speeds, it could be upwards of 100 million years. Where are they getting all this power from? The one race capable of living so long are the Leviathan or the reapers. I believe the cycles first started 50 million years ago supposedly so that's even a bit of a stretch, even more than just using FTL at all. You need like an infinite power source like a black hole to power your ship. And the mass effect endings are not so disparate. You can have a future which reconciles all three endings, you just need a bit of imagination. I have stated how all three can be reconciled in a thread I created.

Wikis are fan-made creations. They are by no means credible nor are they reliable. Anyone could edit them. Who's to say the ARK is even using a technology that was present in ME1-3? If you look at the design of the ARK, it looks very similar to the Citadel in many ways. It's quite possible the ship is either based off the Citadel's design or perhaps it was based off of Sovereign. All of his parts were confiscated on the Citadel, after all. For all we know, the ARK could very well be the galaxy's own version of a reaper, more or less.

 

Again, who's to say the galaxy had the means of making this technology widely available? If the ARK is based off of Sovereign's design, it is very likely it is one of a kind and cannot be easily replicated. I understand entirely why the Mass Relays and the Citadel existed. They are nothing more than metaphorical mice traps with cheese as an incentive to go near them. Again, the reapers seemed capable of intergalactic travel, at least longer distance travel than what was achieved by any species in the Milky Way. We have no idea where the reapers came from in Dark Space and how long they traveled.

 

Arrival was nothing more than a plot point meant to bridge the cap between ME2 and ME3. It was a matter of convenience in order to put Shepard under house arrest on Earth so that the beginning of ME3 would actually make sense. The reapers were coming either way and the galaxy would not have been prepared.

 

Ok so, why didn't the council give Shepard a break if they actually believed the reapers were real since ME1? Talk about conspiracies within conspiracies. Why didn't they say, yes we found Sovereign and we believe you now. Oh, hey to prepare we're going to create this ARK as a means of escape in case it all goes south. It doesn't quite fit in with the story.

 

Also arrival was not necessary to the story, that was why it was a DLC but they out it in anyway, Theres nothing so far to indicate that the reapers are capable of intersteller travel. They need the citadel relay to travel to and from dark space. They didn't just fly there. So that's entirely invented.
 

[Revan Reborn]

Ok so, why didn't the council give Shepard a break if they actually believed the reapers were real since ME1? Talk about conspiracies within conspiracies. Why didn't they say, yes we found Sovereign and we believe you now. Oh, hey to prepare we're going to create this ARK as a means of escape in case it all goes south. It doesn't quite fit in with the story.

 

Also arrival was not necessary to the story, that was why it was a DLC but they out it in anyway, Theres nothing so far to indicate that the reapers are capable of intersteller travel. They need the citadel relay to travel to and from dark space. They didn't just fly there. So that's entirely invented.
 

Who said anything about the Council believing the reapers were real? What the Council did know is that Sovereign was real, and that he was based off of technology they had never seen before. It doesn't matter if they believed whether he was a reaper or not. It only matters if they used his technology for their own personal benefit. Shepard never had definitive proof of what a reaper was. All he had were visions and he said Sovereign was one. It's not until ME3 that everybody realizes the reapers are real and Sovereign wasn't just Saren's flagship.

 

When did the Council ever tell Shepard about any of their plans? They never trusted him. Not to mention, he did die and then he came back to life as a member of Cerberus. The Council wasn't exactly in a position to just start spilling all of their secrets, especially when they weren't even sure if Shepard was trustworthy or actually the real Shepard.

 

Actually, it is necessary. Arrival literally bridges ME2 and ME3. Otherwise, you go from destroying the Collector base at the end of ME2 to being under house arrest on Earth at the beginning of ME3 without any reasoning presented. Arrival is the reason Shepard is under house arrest, because he destroyed a Mass Relay and committed genocide against the Batarians.

 

I'm fairly certain Arrival even explains that the reapers don't actually need the relays. The relays are just a faster means for them to travel. Obviously, they are capable of intergalactic travel as they still get to the Milky Way in ME3 without the mass relay from Arrival... If the reapers needed the Citadel relay to travel to and from dark space, then they would never have been in ME3, considering Sovereign tried and failed to open the Citadel relay...

[fizzypop]

The problem with this is that Andromeda is 2 million light years away. So even if you are travelling at the speed of light which they can't do, its a 2 million year trip. And if they are travelling at sublight speeds, it could be upwards of 100 million years. Where are they getting all this power from? The one race capable of living so long are the Leviathan or the reapers. I believe the cycles first started 50 million years ago supposedly so that's even a bit of a stretch, even more than just using FTL at all. You need like an infinite power source like a black hole to power your ship. And the mass effect endings are not so disparate. You can have a future which reconciles all three endings, you just need a bit of imagination. I have stated how all three can be reconciled in a thread I created.

 

Ok so, why didn't the council give Shepard a break if they actually believed the reapers were real since ME1? Talk about conspiracies within conspiracies. Why didn't they say, yes we found Sovereign and we believe you now. Oh, hey to prepare we're going to create this ARK as a means of escape in case it all goes south. It doesn't quite fit in with the story.

 

Also arrival was not necessary to the story, that was why it was a DLC but they out it in anyway, Theres nothing so far to indicate that the reapers are capable of intersteller travel. They need the citadel relay to travel to and from dark space. They didn't just fly there. So that's entirely invented.
 

Here's the thing this is a video game that isn't based in reality. FTL isn't even possible. No matter the technological advances we will never be able to accomplish this as humans IRL. So you have to understand that bioware is probably going to fudge this. I wouldn't even be surprised if they fudged how far it is from us. It is possible to power a ship for millions of years. Anything radioactive would be able to sustain stasis pods for millions of years to come. Not many mind you, but enough. That is actually a theory that kind of jives with reality enough to make it plausible.

Explain to me how you can have ONE future with all three endings. It wouldn't be possible because as soon as you have humans that are bio-synesthetic you would be destroying the blue and red endings entirely. If reapers are around controlled by Shepard you would be destroying green and red endings. There is just no way without it being some contrived mess and likely sound equally implausible (not to mention stupid). I would definitely not play it then as blue and green are not endings that I liked nor cared for. If they tried to give all three endings a nod they would have to create a bunch of content for that...if it was me I would go the lazy route. Honestly, bioware often does. Which is why it sounds more reasonable to me. I suppose you could just not mention it at all and allow the players to roleplay it, but that sounds stupid too. I doubt the fans would be happy with that.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

I believe the cycles first started 50 million years ago supposedly so that's even a bit of a stretch, even more than just using FTL at all. 

The Reapers have been around for at least a billion years, since the Leviathan of Dis(which we learn is a Reaper corpse) is dated to be a billion years old. 

[Rocks_and_shoals]

Explain to me how you can have ONE future with all three endings. It wouldn't be possible because as soon as you have humans that are bio-synesthetic you would be destroying the blue and red endings entirely. If reapers are around controlled by Shepard you would be destroying green and red endings. There is just no way without it being some contrived mess and likely sound equally implausible (not to mention stupid). I would definitely not play it then as blue and green are not endings that I liked nor cared for. If they tried to give all three endings a nod they would have to create a bunch of content for that...if it was me I would go the lazy route. Honestly, bioware often does. Which is why it sounds more reasonable to me. I suppose you could just not mention it at all and allow the players to roleplay it, but that sounds stupid too. I doubt the fans would be happy with that.

 

That just wouldn't be the case:

 

Say the story of MEA takes place 500 years later:

                                                                              Destroy AI ending

                                                                               Synthesis

                                                                               Control AI ending

 

Destroy AI: The catalyst and reapers are destroyed and technology throughout the galaxy is damaged. The galaxy rebuilds using reaper technology left from their carcasses. The reapers themselves are disassembled. They learn much from reaper technology and as time moves on, the use of synthetic technology to augment organics becomes commonplace. The geth are spared destruction because some heretics were placed into cold storage by the other geth as punishment and they were not active. The crucible only destroyed active synthetic signatures. The geth were salvaged and reactivated by the quarians or another race.

 

Synthesis: The catalyst uses the reapers to rebuild the galaxy. Now with a new solution, synthesis, the catalyst has no qualms about sharing knowledge and technology to advance the galaxy. Eventually the catalyst chooses to decompile having served its purpose put forth by the leviathan. Once inactivated, the reapers die because the catalyst was a personification of all reaper consciousness and intelligence. They reapers are disassembled. The use of synthetics to augment organics has become commonplace.

 

Control Ai: Shepard takes the place of the catalyst and uses the reapers to rebuild the galaxy. Reaper technology is used to advance galactic cultures. Eventually, the shepard AI decides the usefulness of the reapers is at an end. They are a symbol of previous eons of oppression and he was helped to build a brave new future for the galaxy. The reapers are disassembled and the Shepard AI leaves, is left in cold storage until such time as it is needed again or is left to degrade now that the reapers no longer support the artificial construct. The use of synthetics to augment organics becomes commonplace given the knowledge of all previous civilisations before.

 

Now 500 years later, the galaxy is ready to expand beyond its limits and discover new frontiers.