236 réponses à ce sujet

[9TailsFox]

I think Tali is way more of a hero-worshiping naive damsel-in-distress sweet girl than Liara ever was. Although I also think both characters evolved beyond that.

[Master Warder Z_]

I've seen the rage about DA2's Bethany not being romanceable...... O_o

 

Yeah, I am not going to lie I was disappointed.

[aoibhealfae]

I think Tali is way more of a hero-worshiping naive damsel-in-distress sweet girl than Liara ever was. Although I also think both characters evolved beyond that.

 

Well, Drew Karpyshyn did wrote both of them in ME1 and he is fond of manic pixie dream girl trope... the kind that are superficially capable and intellectual but always in need of saving at one form or the other and dependent on masculine whims.

 

But the trope was more expanded with Liara and often time, whenever there was attempts at making her more empowered, the writers did a number on her to maintain that MPDG quality that she became very contradicting in her narrative. Tali on the other hand, had her personal narrative expanded and shape around her. She still retain her dream girlfriend quality but she is consistent, she have her agency and her entire existence doesn't revolve around the PC. 

[Xen]

There have been people on here who have been butthurt over shepard dying in the ME3 endings due to Liara possibly moving on and dating someone else in the future. Really shows you what kind of insecure and needy mindset these people have.

the real question is.....if she eventually dated a guy, would it be considered rape?

[Riven326]

Steve from Mass Effect 3.

 

Steve is a character that is defined only by his sexuality and there is a near-constant attention being drawn to it every time you happen to visit that part of the ship. The audio clip playing in the background was nothing short of embarrassing. I honestly wonder how gay people feel about characters like that. If I were gay, I'm almost certain I would be insulted by Steve's character. There doesn't need to be an unnecessary amount of attention drawn to a character's sexuality just because they're gay or transgender or whatever.

In short, no more characters that are "Look at me, I'm gay and that's my only reason for existing in this game!" It's ham fisted as **** and incredibly annoying. I would feel the same way if they had a straight character in the game who was hung up on the idea of being straight or had this stupid audio clip playing every time I walked by to get across the idea of how straight this character is. Bioware really needs to play the Witcher 3, because it does everything better than them and CDPR actually knows how to pull it off.

[Seboist]

the real question is.....if she eventually dated a guy, would it be considered rape?

According to some, she's already been "raped" if the shep who 'manced her was male(I kid you not).

[Xen]

According to some, she's already been "raped" if the shep who 'manced her was male(I kid you not).

that's what I was referencing. Did you know Liara is already by definition 1/4 rape baby because of that krogan grandad? Or is it 1/2? I forget how Biower wacko fan logic works.

[Jeremiah12LGeek]

I confess I may not have been specific enough.

 

And in the interests of completing this thought from way back on page 1, I will now copy over the most thorough post that I have ever done on the subject. The subject was boobs. You have been warned.

 

Spoiler

Top ten reason to love Juggs?

 

 

1. Daily exposure to bare juggs lowers cholesterol.

 

2. Gently ****ing in a circle around the ****** for 10 minutes a day improves cognitive function by up to 15%.

 

3. Drinking from juggs makes everything grow bigger. Need proof? Babies. Trust me, I know - I'm a drunk one.

 

4. The only thing better than one jugg is two juggs. Okay, for the record, two juggs are really a whole lot better than one. This can't be overstated.

 

5. More juggs makes everything better (but as a caveat related to #4 this rarely applies in multiples other than 2, in spite of Arnie Movies' claims.)

 

6. A jugg a day keeps the doctor away. No, that's not right. Actually juggs are more likely to keep your doctor around. Which is good, because the closer the doctor is, the faster you will receive any post-jugg encounter-related exhaustion treatment that you need.

 

7. Juggs make the world go 'round.

 

8. Drinking from juggs builds your immune system.

 

9. Drinking with juggs virtually guarantees a good time.

 

10. Adding juggs to anything makes it better. Don't believe me? Mushrooms, oranges, the weather, dessert, and even wood!

 

 

It's all true.

 

You were warned.

 

 

 

 

 

For the record, if you want to be perfectly technical, the post was about Juggernauts, the playable MP character. There may have been an additional layer of subtext, but I truly cannot say for sure.

[Rainbow Wyvern]

Steve from Mass Effect 3.

 

Steve is a character that is defined only by his sexuality and there is a near-constant attention being drawn to it every time you happen to visit that part of the ship. The audio clip playing in the background was nothing short of embarrassing. I honestly wonder how gay people feel about characters like that. If I were gay, I'm almost certain I would be insulted by Steve's character. There doesn't need to be an unnecessary amount of attention drawn to a character's sexuality just because they're gay or transgender or whatever.

In short, no more characters that are "Look at me, I'm gay and that's my only reason for existing in this game!" It's ham fisted as **** and incredibly annoying. I would feel the same way if they had a straight character in the game who was hung up on the idea of being straight or had this stupid audio clip playing every time I walked by to get across the idea of how straight this character is. Bioware really needs to play the Witcher 3, because it does everything better than them and CDPR actually knows how to pull it off.

how is steve defined by his sexuality? steve's actually one of the better gay characters, along with samantha. him having a husband and him listening to an audio recording doesn't mean he's defined by his sexuality.... it just means he has one. not a gay dude but i'm lesbian and i don't find him offensive at all. i'll take a bunch of steves over dorians w/ the 'gay acceptance' weirdness that has no place in fantasy games

 

besides, there's an (annoyingly) large amount of male characters who don't stfu about their dead wives/girlfriends/whatever yet nobody says they're defined by their sexuality... 

 

and cdpr is really not the company i'd look at when it comes to lgbt stuff lmao

[wrdnshprd]

How do you measure how arbitrary their inclusion is?
 

 

i felt DA:I was a good example of this.  it seemed like they were trying to make women more masculine and men more feminine.. its hard to point to one specific thing as evidence.. i guess the character creator is the closest thing.. when making characters i felt like the characters were very gender neutral. .. and what i mean by gender neutral is that they dont scream masculinity or femininity when you look at them.  and i felt that way with the majority of the characters in the game.  what was the point of that?  i didnt see much of a point in that from a lore perspective... particularly when many characters from the first two games were far from gender neutral.

 

on the opposite side of this.. a good example of how to handle sexuality would be witcher 3.. there was one particular scene with a storekeeper that was really well done.  and it made sense from a story perspective.  and if you know anything about witcher 3, i believe you can make an argument that the character Dandelion is bisexual... and i feel that dynamic actually adds depth to his character and it fits.  and yes, you can make the argument that triss and yennifer were overly sexualized..i disagree.. i felt their look fit the story arch for each character.. and what about Ciri?  IMO, her character was still feminine.. and at the same time she was bad ass.. arguably a better fighter than Geralt.  and there were many characters like her.

 

i realize witcher 3 is overly used as a way to criticize bioware.. im just giving you my observations.

[Riven326]

how is steve defined by his sexuality? steve's actually one of the better gay characters, along with samantha. him having a husband and him listening to an audio recording doesn't mean he's defined by his sexuality.... it just means he has one. not a gay dude but i'm lesbian and i don't find him offensive at all. i'll take a bunch of steves over dorians w/ the 'gay acceptance' weirdness that has no place in fantasy games

 

besides, there's an (annoyingly) large amount of male characters who don't stfu about their dead wives/girlfriends/whatever yet nobody says they're defined by their sexuality... 

 

and cdpr is really not the company i'd look at when it comes to lgbt stuff lmao

What was there to learn about Steve beyond his sexuality? Bioware went out of their way to get across that this guy is gay in the most absurd way. The audio clip of his husband being abducted was put on a loop and would not stop playing until you talked to him about it. It would just keep playing no matter how many missions you did. What other character was like that?

Samantha had character development unlike Steve, we actually learned about her beyond just the fact that she's a lesbian and it's only ever hinted at when you first meet her. It wasn't very nuanced (it's Bioware) but at least they didn't go out of their way to push her sexuality on the player like they did with Steve. Regardless, he wasn't the kind of character I wanted to talk to because I thought he was boring. I didn't like chatting with Kaiden either and usually just left him on the ship.

I didn't like Steve as a character. Not because he was gay, but because I didn't care.

[CuriousArtemis]

What was there to learn about Steve beyond his sexuality? 

 

He's a pilot, he's really passionate about the shuttles he pilots and can get pretty nerdy about it, he's good-natured and willingly jokes around with James Vega. Is he a stellar character, no, he's pretty darn boring because he just stands around in the hanger bay the whole time, but his being gay is so NOT a massive part of his character; if Robert had been Roberta, it would have changed nothing. 

 

I certainly don't think he's any worse than Sam, who is, let's see, fond of chess, really good at her job, and passionate about brushing her teeth. Compared to characters who've been at our side throughout the whole trilogy, a pair of characters who just stand around the ship aren't going to see very fleshed out (and they weren't). 

 

I don't get the comparison to Kaidan though; you may not have liked him but he was more fully realized than someone like Sam or Steve. I don't care for Garrus, but that's just because the character didn't gel with me (although I do think he got a little one note after awhile, unlike Kaidan, who really did evolve, and who constantly questioned you).

 

EDIT: p.s. I do actually agree that the scene with the sound clip of Robert being killed or whatever was super cheesy, mostly because Steve's VA is, ehmmm, ummmm, kinda sh!tty? lol It's badly done. And I don't know, it just feels like an awkward scene. BioWare still couldn't animate proper tears, so it looks weird, and then Shep is just standing there like, well, this is awkward.

[Hazegurl]

 

and cdpr is really not the company i'd look at when it comes to lgbt stuff lmao

Based on The Witcher series? It's the only game they've done, that I know of and it's based on a book.  However, even with that said they haven't done a bad job with including some lgbt elements. They aren't afraid to make gay characters villains, Dethmold.  And meeting a character like Mislav, The Hunter felt far more realistic for the world than half the lgbt characters in DA. You can also make Ciri a lesbian. Sure you can't romance the same sex, you can't make Geralt a homosexual but I actually like what little they've done. It fits their world seamlessly.

[Rainbow Wyvern]

Based on The Witcher series? It's the only game they've done, that I know of and it's based on a book.  However, even with that said they haven't done a bad job with including some lgbt elements. They aren't afraid to make gay characters villains, Dethmold.  And meeting a character like Mislav, The Hunter felt far more realistic for the world than half the lgbt characters in DA. You can also make Ciri a lesbian. Sure you can't romance the same sex, you can't make Geralt a homosexual but I actually like what little they've done. It fits their world seamlessly.

iirc dethmold was actually pretty offensive, but i could be remembering wrong, idk. but i didn't know you could make ciri a lesbian (i only played until right past the intro to 3 so i haven't seen much of the game), which is pretty awesome because i friggin love ciri. 

i guess bioware could learn from them in the 'seamless inclusion' department, especially since they were a bit awkward about it in inquisition.

[LineHolder]

Bioware aren't even good at sexuality and romance simulators because they spread themselves so thin across so many permutations and combinations that they're easily outclassed by every game that shows a bit of sex.

 

At this point, I'm not sure what the focus of their games is. Is it the story, the romances or the gameplay? You have to excel in at least one of these to avoid the jack of all trades appellation that will soon result in irrelevance.

[Midnight Bliss]

i felt DA:I was a good example of this.  it seemed like they were trying to make women more masculine and men more feminine.. its hard to point to one specific thing as evidence.. i guess the character creator is the closest thing.. when making characters i felt like the characters were very gender neutral. .. and what i mean by gender neutral is that they dont scream masculinity or femininity when you look at them.  and i felt that way with the majority of the characters in the game.  what was the point of that?  i didnt see much of a point in that from a lore perspective... particularly when many characters from the first two games were far from gender neutral.

 

on the opposite side of this.. a good example of how to handle sexuality would be witcher 3.. there was one particular scene with a storekeeper that was really well done.  and it made sense from a story perspective.  and if you know anything about witcher 3, i believe you can make an argument that the character Dandelion is bisexual... and i feel that dynamic actually adds depth to his character and it fits.  and yes, you can make the argument that triss and yennifer were overly sexualized..i disagree.. i felt their look fit the story arch for each character.. and what about Ciri?  IMO, her character was still feminine.. and at the same time she was bad ass.. arguably a better fighter than Geralt.  and there were many characters like her.

 

i realize witcher 3 is overly used as a way to criticize bioware.. im just giving you my observations.

They absolutely tried to "man" the women up for sjws. I remember when I first was conceptualizing my Inquisitor I envisioned she was going to be something of a high fantasy Julie Strain from Heavy Metal 2000 Justiciar/Templar sort, with big hair and big rack and a bigger sword, and lets just say once I checked out the character creation that idea pretty much ended up dead in the water.

It took me countless tries and several beauty shop mods to make anything even halfway decent in DAI, and even that girl had a "strength" to her face. Although, to be fair, I was pretty happy with her. This problem existed with NPCs women too, of course, like Sera having to look "quirky" and Josie looking almost like a man for no reason at all and requiring mods to fix. I do think that Cassandra was beautiful just as she was though, and I wouldn't change anything about her.

 

I wish somebody would just drive a monster truck over this sjw garbage, and learn you can have a badass and strong woman who looks smoking hot and has big hair and big breasts. It's like I grew up in the 90s and fell through some shitty time warp into an alternate dimension where people think Bad Blood is an example of a strong woman and Chyna Doll and Julie Strain are now considered unsexy and taboo. What a joke.

 

 

Sidebar; I would die and go to heaven to play a PC that looked like Yennefer, just saying.- It made me so disgusted she doesn't fight in TW3 (I don't think?) and isn't playable.

 

What was there to learn about Steve beyond his sexuality? Bioware went out of their way to get across that this guy is gay in the most absurd way. The audio clip of his husband being abducted was put on a loop and would not stop playing until you talked to him about it. It would just keep playing no matter how many missions you did. What other character was like that?

Samantha had character development unlike Steve, we actually learned about her beyond just the fact that she's a lesbian and it's only ever hinted at when you first meet her. It wasn't very nuanced (it's Bioware) but at least they didn't go out of their way to push her sexuality on the player like they did with Steve. Regardless, he wasn't the kind of character I wanted to talk to because I thought he was boring. I didn't like chatting with Kaiden either and usually just left him on the ship.

I didn't like Steve as a character. Not because he was gay, but because I didn't care.

Steve had tons of characterization and was important to the story, and he's probably the best gay character in any series because of how naturally and effortless him having a husband was presented. It never mattered outside what it was, and it felt as normal as any other relationship, which is how it should be.

I'm sort of not surprised you disliked Steve if you disliked Kaidan though since both are regular guys, and that seems to put some people off. I'm just guessing though, I don't know your reasons.

 

I definitely don't want any company taking their marching orders on gay content from CDPR though, with that borderline homophobic portrayal of Dethmold and one sided nudity representation.

[LineHolder]

^

 

"homophobic portrayals of gay men"

 

I must have missed this, but where was this?

[Midnight Bliss]

^

 

"homophobic portrayals of gay men"

 

I must have missed this, but where was this?

Dethmold.

 

I don't know if TW has other gay characters in their games, if so they must not be too important because I never hear of them. Your quoted portion of my post actually shouldn't have been plural now that I think of it, I guess I wasn't paying enough attention.

[LineHolder]

Dethmold.

 

I don't know if TW has other gay characters in their games, if so they must not be too important because I never hear of them. Your quoted portion of my post actually shouldn't have been plural now that I think of it, I guess I wasn't paying enough attention.

 

What about Dethmold? I'm not trying to troll but how is simply saying a character's name supposed to convey "homophobic portrayal of gay men"?

[9TailsFox]

^

 

"homophobic portrayals of gay men"

 

I must have missed this, but where was this?

Dethmold is wizard adviser to king Henselt I think. He killed Vernon Roche man, Roche is leader of special military unit. Roche is not really good person also he may be homophobic so it equal CD projekt red is homophobic bigots and must burn in hell. So because Dorian thinks slavery is ok that means Bioware support slavery you know logic.

 

The point is than Roche kills Dethmold he cuts his balls and feeds it to him and slits his throat. Well what ******* deserve worse. Dethmold is  on same level as Rendon Howe.

[Lord Bolton]

Dethmold.

 

I don't know if TW has other gay characters in their games, if so they must not be too important because I never hear of them. Your quoted portion of my post actually shouldn't have been plural now that I think of it, I guess I wasn't paying enough attention.

 

There's Mislav in TW3 

This one, small conversation (2:13) gave me real feels... unlike Dorian's or Steve's personal quests.

I just wanted to hug that guy.

[LineHolder]

Dethmold is wizard adviser to king Henselt I think. He killed Vernon Roche man, Roche is leader of special military unit. Roche is not really good person also he may be homophobic so it equal CD projekt red is homophobic bigots and must burn in hell. So because Dorian thinks slavery is ok that means Bioware support slavery you know logic.

 

The point is than Roche kills Dethmold he cuts his balls and feeds it to him and slits his throat. Well what ******* deserve worse. Dethmold is  on same level as Rendon Howe.

 

I know about Dethmold's story and that of Witcher 2. I'm trying to see how we got from summarily judging CDPR to have "homophobic portrayals of gay men" to mentioning "Dethmold" to "homophobic portrayals of gay men" again. I can't ... I need some explanation.

 

There's Mislav in TW3 

IMO, the most believable gay character I've ever seen in any game. This one, small conversation gave me real feels... unlike Dorian's or Steve's personal quests.

 

Indeed.

[Midnight Bliss]

What about Dethmold? I'm not trying to troll but how is simply saying a character's name supposed to convey "homophobic portrayal of gay men"?

I thought you were asking who I was talking about, not why I thought that, sorry.
 

Anyway, the fact he's pretty much the depraved homosexual trope personified and had that weird "gay man" death pretty much says it all. I've seen some people say the fact he was like that and gay was just a coincidence but I was never convinced, because since TW is such a fist-pumping sausage fest series and especially after I read that developers note about Dethmold and how they wanted it to seem like something was "off" with him, and spent so much time trying to get his voice to convey that, and what a surprise, his voice was an evil queer guy stereotype.

[Midnight Bliss]

There's Mislav in TW3 

This one, small conversation (2:13) gave me real feels... unlike Dorian's or Steve's personal quests.

I just wanted to hug that guy.

Okay, that wasn't terrible actually. Definitely better than Dorian by a mile, I'll give you that.

 

I'll update my post. Thanks for the correction

[9TailsFox]

Dethmold.

 

I don't know if TW has other gay characters in their games, if so they must not be too important because I never hear of them. Your quoted portion of my post actually shouldn't have been plural now that I think of it, I guess I wasn't paying enough attention.

Not many characters sexuality are told. the ones we know is.

Philippa Eilhart

Cynthia

Deathmold

Bernard Loredo

Mislav the Hunter