236 réponses à ce sujet

[LineHolder]

I thought you were asking who I was talking about, not why I thought that, sorry.
 

Anyway, the fact he's pretty much the depraved homosexual trope personified and had that weird "gay man" death pretty much says it all. I've seen some people say the fact he was like that and gay was just a coincidence but I was never convinced, because since TW is such a fist-pumping sausage fest series and especially after I read that developers note about Dethmold and how they wanted it to seem like something was "off" with him, and spent so much time trying to get his voice to convey that, and what a surprise, his voice was an evil queer guy stereotype.

 

Witcher 2 was a game that didn't hold back in showing how brutal its (and by extension our) world is.

 

Dethmold was not the only 'depraved' man in the game. He was one amongst many. Consider this,

 

1. Henselt, his boss, a straight male raped one of Geralt's friends. He can also meet a grisly end at Roche's hands.

 

2. Another king, Radovid, orders the destruction of wizards and sorceresses. We are vividly shown the slaughter, rape and skewering of these people that include men and women of various sexualities.

 

3. Just because Dethmold happened to be evil, it is never implied he was evil because he was gay. Are you saying that gay people cannot be evil? Were Saville and the Catholic priests who raped little boys not evil? Do you need to show a virtuous gay person before you show an evil one?

 

4. Dethmold may have seemed 'off'. Have you ever read of any European medieval character openly declaring his homosexuality? Why do you think that was? Because times were such that declaring such a thing would have been a death sentence. Although I didn't see anything 'off' about Dethmold.

 

It's actually interesting that the Witcher series is the target of accusations of homophobia because if you can see past the allegory of the hatred, mistrust and disdain shared by different communities in the series (elves, dwarves, humans, wizards etc) you will see that it has far more 'social justice' substance than the hollow, token and shameless pandering that Bioware has resorted to.

 

 

"fist-pumping sausage fest series"

 

I don't even know how to respond to this. The story as a whole was better because Geralt was a well established character and you can roleplay him. If Bioware (or any other developer) want to make a game around a central character that was gay or lesbian, I'd get behind the idea but I know they'd never have the courage to go that far. The token 'representations' of differing sexualities that has become the trend tells me that.

[Xetykins]

because since TW is such a fist-pumping sausage fest series

 

TW1 maybe, I wouldn't know because I never sexed anyone in the series. As a fem gamer, I really enjoyed the female characters in TW3. Some could say Geralt is mashed potatoes compared to the women. I also appreciated their representation of gay men like Mislav,who like the others I want to hug. But also appreciated Dorian's story from another perspective.

 

Not one story of any demographic/era are alike. 

 

Anyway, on topic. Just give me really well fleshed out characters, archetypes or not and I am happy. I don't care how they dress, don't care about their boob or bicept size, color/height, just well written ones.

[Helios969]

It's gonna be one boring game if Bioware removes everything people find overused and/or offensive.  Mass Effect: The Politically Correct and Quirky Space Adventure. Well at least we get to kill a hundred thousand mooks (for now).

[SwobyJ]

Steve from Mass Effect 3.

 

Steve is a character that is defined only by his sexuality and there is a near-constant attention being drawn to it every time you happen to visit that part of the ship. The audio clip playing in the background was nothing short of embarrassing. I honestly wonder how gay people feel about characters like that. If I were gay, I'm almost certain I would be insulted by Steve's character. There doesn't need to be an unnecessary amount of attention drawn to a character's sexuality just because they're gay or transgender or whatever.

In short, no more characters that are "Look at me, I'm gay and that's my only reason for existing in this game!" It's ham fisted as **** and incredibly annoying. I would feel the same way if they had a straight character in the game who was hung up on the idea of being straight or had this stupid audio clip playing every time I walked by to get across the idea of how straight this character is. Bioware really needs to play the Witcher 3, because it does everything better than them and CDPR actually knows how to pull it off.

 

I'm gay and I like everything about Steve's character. 

 

Except how it is portrayed. 

 

DON'T MAKE ME AN ANCHOR.

 

I WORRY ABOUT YOU.

 

And the gist of YOU'RE SO VULNERABLE WHEN YOU'RE IN THIS SHUTTLE WITH ME.

 

Its less 'men can be very emotional and caring' and more 'how the hell did this guy measure up in the Alliance? Can he just lay off a bit?'.

 

Yet I still like him. I even think more along the lines that he deserved more. The funny thing is, Citadel DLC make me like some characters more and some less. For those I liked more, it particularly included Miranda and Steve. I just have to stomach through ME2 Miranda (and ME3 to an extent, as her deal felt a little sloppy), and the first half of ME3 Steve.

 

EDIT: Mind you, I am fine with character decay (compared to growth or stagnation) and characters that I find offensive even. But I get a special sort of offended when I see the overall quality suck. I want a good game, with a good story. Steve's initial husband deal didn't measure up to me, though it might have on paper.

[von uber]

Just out of interest, if Femshep romances Liara, would Femshep and Liara count as gay characters?

If so, you have some pretty damn good ones right there.

[BaaBaaBlacksheep]

People who hate themselves and insecure like Sera, a person with a low EQ (emotional quality) like Solas, and annoying like Cassandra, Dorian, and Sera.

[BaaBaaBlacksheep]

No childish-like friendships, people who make corny jokes, and that's about it.

[fizzypop]

Someone like Samara. I like having crew mates that I don't have to baby.

While I do like Kaiden's arc...at times I just wanted to be like ****** LET IT GO!!!!!!! Just shove him out the airlock. So just don't do that again. Really I would kill for a real renegade dude. Garrus was the closest ME ever got to that.

[aoibhealfae]

Not sure. I actually like Zaeed's renegade arc more (where you kill everyone just so you could endorse this guy's revenge) than Garrus' which I felt very one-dimensional and very insignificant. I especially hate how nothing about him carry-through in the narrative except for his death in ME2. 

 

Since you still endorse him being either plain paragon or renegade as the game advances, it became so much harder to actually treat him with actual disapproval. I especially like it in ME1 when Shepard could treat him like he's an overgrown man child.

 

Let the renegade really be an actual renegade. Make him treat you with dislike and actually grow a spine. 

[Original Mako]

Let the renegade really be an actual renegade. Make him treat you with dislike and actually grow a spine. 

 

I like what this implies -> Have other characters react to the PC based on the sum of their actions and not a moment to moment red/blue choice.

[Kimarous]

Let the renegade really be an actual renegade. Make him treat you with dislike and actually grow a spine. 

 

Case in point: https://youtu.be/RD0LdGGWZQM?t=34s

[KaiserShep]

Steve from Mass Effect 3.

 

Steve is a character that is defined only by his sexuality and there is a near-constant attention being drawn to it every time you happen to visit that part of the ship. The audio clip playing in the background was nothing short of embarrassing. I honestly wonder how gay people feel about characters like that. If I were gay, I'm almost certain I would be insulted by Steve's character. There doesn't need to be an unnecessary amount of attention drawn to a character's sexuality just because they're gay or transgender or whatever.

In short, no more characters that are "Look at me, I'm gay and that's my only reason for existing in this game!" It's ham fisted as **** and incredibly annoying. I would feel the same way if they had a straight character in the game who was hung up on the idea of being straight or had this stupid audio clip playing every time I walked by to get across the idea of how straight this character is. Bioware really needs to play the Witcher 3, because it does everything better than them and CDPR actually knows how to pull it off.

 

 

I guess a good question to ask in response to this is whether or not Steve Cortez' sexuality would still define his character if the person he lost was his wife. After all, this is advertising to the player that he's a heterosexual male who is now possibly available because his life partner is dead. His characterization is pretty much interchangeable with that of a heterosexual character. Absolutely nothing would change except the name of the person and the word wife instead of husband, really. I suppose an even better question to ask would be this: What is it really that defines his character more: the grieving widower, or the gay man? Steve Cortez faces no conflict specifically because he's gay. He only struggles with the fact that his loved one is gone. No one ever brings it up or gives him a hard time about it. Not James, and Shepard sure can't. 

 

In any case, this is a clear case of selective listening, since this is definitely not the only thing Steve talks about. If this was a criticism against Shepard being a sort-of therapist to companions that can't seem to handle their grief, then there would be something there, since there's a clear pattern among Shepard's followers.

[LineHolder]

I guess a good question to ask in response to this is whether or not Steve Cortez' sexuality would still define his character if the person he lost was his wife. After all, this is advertising to the player that he's a heterosexual male who is now possibly available because his life partner is dead. His characterization is pretty much interchangeable with that of a heterosexual character. Absolutely nothing would change except the name of the person and the word wife instead of husband, really. I suppose an even better question to ask would be this: What is it really that defines his character more: the grieving widower, or the gay man? Steve Cortez faces no conflict specifically because he's gay. He only struggles with the fact that his loved one is gone. No one ever brings it up or gives him a hard time about it. Not James, and Shepard sure can't. 

 

In any case, this is a clear case of selective listening, since this is definitely not the only thing Steve talks about. If this was a criticism against Shepard being a sort-of therapist to companions that can't seem to handle their grief, then there would be something there, since there's a clear pattern among Shepard's followers.

 

I think what Riven326 means to say is that Steve is in the game simply to be romanced by a gay character. He doesn't have new things to show about the ME Universe. Compare this to the choices for a heterosexual male in previous games,

 

- Miranda has a connection to Cerberus. She is deeply conflicted about being genetically modified to be 'perfect'. Fights against her father to prevent her own sister being used similarly.

 

- Tali talks about the Geth-Quarian struggle, the Quarian way of life, their customs and what it's like living as an outcast in a Galactic society

 

- Jack talks about being tested upon as a child both physically and mentally. Life as a slaver, pirate, vagabond, vagrant, murderer and how it changes a person.

 

- Ashley gives us background of what it's like to be born into a military family that feels it has to redeem its name. This also partly explains her distrust of aliens. Is also a poet.

 

- Liara is an Asari who has much to say about her own race. Also can become a powerful information broker.

 

When you look at Steve by himself, he's not so bad. I talked to him on my first playthrough but he keeps talking about his partner and something about the shuttle. I'm sorry, that's boring. Maybe because I'm heterosexual or maybe because he really is boring. I can't say. But if you look at him in context of Kaidan being turned into a bisexual, it becomes clear that there was a checklist. 2 options for gay males, 2 for lesbians, 2 for hetero males, 2 for hetero females.

 

Samantha on the other hand, is a joy to talk to even if she's not romantically inclined towards a male Shep. Because she's funny, she has new things to reveal about the Universe (mass effect toothbrush, no genetic modification on colonies ... not as good as prior characters ... but good enough compared to the new ones).

 

I doubt this entire debate would have been created if games media hadn't created such a fuss over it. It didn't help that BiEAware tried to deflect criticisms of Mass Effect 3 by saying homophobia was the reason for the fans' fury.

 

Going forward, I propose that all PCs be limited to only one choice of romance depending on their sexuality. 1 for a hetero male, 1 for hetero female, 1 for gay male, 1 for lesbian etc. Indeed make two romanceable characters. 1 bisexual female and 1 bisexual male. Because by making statements like they did, BiEAware have written themselves into a situation where all of their subsequent games must have all-sexuality representation and judging from ME3, they clearly don't have the resources to do all of them justice. Considering ME3, I'm not going to get a BiEAware game for its romance content.

 

They've made token sexuality representation one of their cornerstones, but similarly, I have become more aware that I need games that will represent 'me and mine' as well. And by 'me and mine' I do not mean heterosexual males. There are other representations to be made other than sexuality (national, lingual, ethnic, facial features etc). Ultimately, though, token representations are insulting because they feel more like a bone thrown to attract people rather than having the courage to tell cohesive stories based around those representations.

[DarthSliver]

Well seeing as the OP wants to just removing everything, why don't Bioware just not add any other characters but your character. Thats what I am getting from the OP anyways. 

 

I would say, let Bioware write their own characters. Lets have more Dorians, he may has been gay but he wasn't throwing it in your face all time. Or more Ironbulls, he may have been a Qunari but at least he wasn't rubbing his beliefs in your face either. 

 

Only trope we don't need is transgender and thats for obvious reasons and too touchy of a topic to explain in detail, so do your research on why someone would take a stance against it. And I can tell you from the start its not because I don't want people to be happy, I do.

 

But we need characters that have their own belief systems and don't throw it in our face all the time. Only one time when we drive into who these characters are. I would also like Bioware devs to give us their opinion on controversial topics through their characters too, because isn't that what good writing is too. Giving your opinion on things through your story. 

[Jackums]

The handsome and noble guy ... who's only into women

 
I wonder how many games it'll take before they decide this guy isn't exclusively straight.
 
We'll probably get a few more Dorians (sassy, flamboyant stereotype) and Zevrans/Bulls (will-sleep-with-anything bisexuals) before then. Or a few of the fringe, troubled outcast types, a la Fenris/Anders. Though the latter aren't outright stereotypes like the former, just tropes I'm a bit tired of myself.
 
Kaidan was probably the closest they came to normality, but he's also typically beta, in line with gay stereotypes. While Cortez was hardly even a character enough to be mentioned, just a checklist placeholder to fill a quota, seemingly.
 
Amusingly, I'd bet a majority of gay males, if asked/surveyed, would be most interested in an (exclusively) homosexual, together, handsome alpha male. Yet we've been given just about every trope but that like it's some combination of traits that only occur in straight males. Without presuming to speak for everyone, I'm pretty confident BioWare could please majority of their gay male gamers in one go, rather easily, simply by getting the standard, conventionally attractive (masculine, chiseled/strong features, etc), human male, soldier/warrior template and simply inverting his sexuality (without touching his personality traits; no adding of any flamboyancy or effeminate qualities that wouldn't be present were he straight).

[Midnight Bliss]

Well seeing as the OP wants to just removing everything, why don't Bioware just not add any other characters but your character. Thats what I am getting from the OP anyways. 

Except that isn't what I said nor is that the purpose of this topic.

 

 Kaidan was probably the closest they came to normality, but he's also typically beta, in line with gay stereotypes. While Cortez was hardly even a character enough to be mentioned, just a checklist placeholder to fill a quota, seemingly.

The problem is that Kaidan is heterosexual and whatever that thing is going on with ME3 is just a BW supplied "gay" mod and no different than those Alistair boyxboy romance tweaks for DAO. I loved the KaidanxShep love story so much and I think it would be fantastic to have a gay romance like that, but it has to involve an actual gay character and not a heterosexual character with a developer supplied mod for male PCs.

(I know this missed the better part of your comment, so consider the above more of a passing observation rather than a response.)

[Jackums]

The problem is that Kaidan is heterosexual and whatever that thing is going on with ME3 is just a BW supplied "gay" mod and no different than those Alistair boyxboy romance tweaks for DAO. I loved the KaidanxShep love story so much and I think it would be fantastic to have a gay romance like that, but it has to involve an actual gay character and not a heterosexual character with a developer supplied mod for male PCs.

(I know this missed the better part of your comment, but so consider the above more of a passing observation rather than a response.)

Agreed.

 

ME in general had more "checklist" style gay romance options compared to DA, where characters didn't seem so copy/paste of straight romances, or half-baked and thrown in to meet a criteria. Though they did cater to their share of stereotypes and tropes.

 

But I'm optimistic for ME:A.

 

In general I know the strong, sensitive male combination is very appealing (to both gay males and straight females), and wouldn't mind that in future games as a gay male option. As long as it's not just a "modded" straight romance, or a bisexual romance (commit to the character being exclusively homosexual) there to please everyone and fulfill a requisite number of romance options for gay male gamers.

[aoibhealfae]

There's Theron Shan and Koth Vortena. Despite being bisexual options, neither of them show their sexual preferences so you can think of them being either straight or masculine gay men. This is the part where being player-sexual isn't particularly an issue especially in MMORPG.

I'm sure someone would rant about them not completely being a knight in shining armor types. But so far they haven't uploaded their daddy issues on me.. yet.

 

Frankly, I like both of them and flirted with them despite being married to someone else I probably want to buy another level 60 token just to hook up with Koth. He's like Javik except more Locke than Jacob. 

[Onewomanarmy]

Just out of interest, if Femshep romances Liara, would Femshep and Liara count as gay characters?

If so, you have some pretty damn good ones right there.

 

I'd say Liara definitely count as a gay character if romanced by female Shep. I don't care how much the writers keeps insisting she's not a female, that asari and any other asari is as close to being female as all the other human females in the game.

[Fixers0]

how is steve defined by his sexuality? steve's actually one of the better gay characters, along with samantha. him having a husband and him listening to an audio recording doesn't mean he's defined by his sexuality.... it just means he has one. not a gay dude but i'm lesbian and i don't find him offensive at all. i'll take a bunch of steves over dorians w/ the 'gay acceptance' weirdness that has no place in fantasy games

 

Regardless of sexuality the husband message was pretty embarssing though. A military officer on duty listening to a private relationship message in an open area, potentionally distracting other crewmen from their duties. I'm certain this wouldn't be allowed on a modern day navay vessel. It speaks of a flagrant lack of professionalism and quite frankly arrogance on Cortez' part.  

[Guanxii]

Haaa. You just reminded me of the most awkward Mass Effect moment ever. I always thought of Kaidan as maleshep's oldest pal so when Kaidian is suddenly gay for some reason and starts coming on to maleshep mid conversation that was ****** cringe. No advanced warning, right out of the god damn blue. I've known you my whole life and you're telling me this now like this.... Trying to seduce me in my dress blues. Friendship over. Damn you equal rights crusaders and your diversity counts... Do you see what you have done?

Never change the sexuality of a character like this ever again.

[Jackums]

There's Theron Shan and Koth Vortena. Despite being bisexual options, neither of them show their sexual preferences so you can think of them being either straight or masculine gay men. This is the part where being player-sexual isn't particularly an issue especially in MMORPG.

Player-sexuality feels somewhat diminishing of the character. Not in that sexuality directly correlates to personality, but it has an innately less fulfilling feeling when a character isn't specifically defined as a particular sexuality and will simply be interested in you because of your protagonist/player status. Speaking for myself. Even just from a writing perspective I find characters more real and flavorful when they have a defined sexuality.

Player-sexual as a mechanic works to satisfy more people, of course. So from that POV it's an attractive approach.

Either way, the more masculine, warrior/soldier trope male as an exclusively homosexual character is appealing for the fact it would not conform to the stereotype that gay males aren't/can't be like that, whilst also being a fulfilling gay romance in itself, knowing that character is interested in your character because (in part) you're male, and not because you're the PC or because the character in question is a "bang anything" bisexual stereotype.

[aoibhealfae]

I can understand that there are many who want a straight gay character being made exclusive to gay PC. I can understand the greater disdain when male LI are only being made exclusively to female PC (like Kaidan in ME1 and DAI's Cullen for instance) and the general disdain when male LI are being made bisexual and aren't exclusive to gay men... as if it is the fault of straight females to also being attracted to conventionally masculine men. 

 

In this case, it does present the problems of creating multiple interactive romances. Obviously, if they cater to everyone, people rant that's player-sexual. If they set strict limitations on their character's preference, people still rant about them being excluded out and discriminated against because the character of their preference isn't available to them. When gay characters being modded to have a straight preference or straight characters being modded as gay, people would rant about it being equivalent to a sexual assault or conversion therapy. It is really is a no-win situation.

 

In this instance, I am not against the idea of player-sexuality. Yes, the idea of non-exclusivity might make them a turn off to some but if it was written right, it could work. 

[Jackums]

I can understand that there are many who want a straight gay character being made exclusive to gay PC. I can understand the greater disdain when male LI are only being made exclusively to female PC (like Kaidan in ME1 and DAI's Cullen for instance) and the general disdain when male LI are being made bisexual and aren't exclusive to gay men... as if it is the fault of straight females to also being attracted to conventionally masculine men.

The "straight gay" idea is exactly the issue (what it details); equivocating that group of traits to heterosexuals, as if exclusive and non-occurring in gay males. Hence we don't see gay male romance options with this particular combination of traits. They're always bisexual or player-sexual.

 

That said, I wouldn't apply the word disdain. Unless you're speaking generally.

 

They're inching in the right direction. I'm just sharing what I feel would work for a lot of the gay male audience going forward, if not myself.
 

In this case, it does present the problems of creating multiple interactive romances. Obviously, if they cater to everyone, people rant that's player-sexual. If they set strict limitations on their character's preference, people still rant about them being excluded out and discriminated against because the character of their preference isn't available to them. When gay characters being modded to have a straight preference or straight characters being modded as gay, people would rant about it being equivalent to a sexual assault or conversion therapy. It is really is a no-win situation.

There will always be people that are disappointed or complain, yes. Hardly a valid reason to never pursue different routes, though.

 

In this case it's as simple as including a single, masculine, non-flamboyant/effeminate, exclusively homosexual male romance option. If not in ME:A, in a future BioWare title. I'm sure we'll land on that combination eventually.

[Riven326]

I guess a good question to ask in response to this is whether or not Steve Cortez' sexuality would still define his character if the person he lost was his wife. After all, this is advertising to the player that he's a heterosexual male who is now possibly available because his life partner is dead. His characterization is pretty much interchangeable with that of a heterosexual character. Absolutely nothing would change except the name of the person and the word wife instead of husband, really. I suppose an even better question to ask would be this: What is it really that defines his character more: the grieving widower, or the gay man? Steve Cortez faces no conflict specifically because he's gay. He only struggles with the fact that his loved one is gone. No one ever brings it up or gives him a hard time about it. Not James, and Shepard sure can't. 

 

In any case, this is a clear case of selective listening, since this is definitely not the only thing Steve talks about. If this was a criticism against Shepard being a sort-of therapist to companions that can't seem to handle their grief, then there would be something there, since there's a clear pattern among Shepard's followers.

To answer your question, yes, I would still make the same criticism if Steve were straight. That being said, I don't think Bioware would design or implement the character the way in which they did if he were not gay, and that's the point.