Why do I get the strange suspicion this is really a thread about embracing odd fetishes more than avoiding cliches?
As long as the writing is good and the character makes sense, I really don't care what BioWare does.
Because IT IS a thread about embracing odd fetishes more than avoiding cliches silly!
No but in all seriousness I agree with about quality of story and characters
The "straight gay" idea is exactly the issue (what it details); equivocating that group of traits to heterosexuals, as if exclusive and non-occurring in gay males. Hence we don't see gay male romance options with this particular combination of traits. They're always bisexual or player-sexual.
That said, I wouldn't apply the word disdain. Unless you're speaking generally.
They're inching in the right direction. I'm just sharing what I feel would work for a lot of the gay male audience going forward, if not myself.
There will always be people that are disappointed or complain, yes. Hardly a valid reason to never pursue different routes, though.
In this case it's as simple as including a single, masculine, non-flamboyant/effeminate, exclusively homosexual male romance option. If not in ME:A, in a future BioWare title. I'm sure we'll land on that combination eventually.
I haven't played DAI yet so I'm not sure whether Dorian was being flamboyant and effeminate or how the romance turns out. Cortez on the other hand never come to me as being either of those either and are masculine and exclusively male romance. For me, even as a FemShep, I felt genuinely about helping him and as BroShep, I didn't feel his past was ever intrusive in their relationship... so I'm not sure how his sexuality supposedly defined him when he didn't rub off to me as "an obviously gay man here!!". To me, he is just a grieving guy who was deeply hurting. In fact, Cortez was willing to let go and took BroShep's interest and they actually get to know each other and grew to love each other and help each other heal. They have great ambient dialogues together and all the wonderful flirts. I felt Meer was also far more prepared, comfortable and genuine when romancing with Cortez than he does with Kaidan (but this VA perception depends on what language version you're playing).
I have been in other discussion threads about this particularly in ME and DA. I might worded it wrongly but I do feel such angry sentiment dealing with romanceable bisexual characters and mostly about the lack of exclusivity. From angrily pointing out how their romance content was cut out (like in Kaidan/FemShep), how forward their partner should be, how *insert character* are supposed to have gay romance but they cut it out (citing several hidden voiced lines). Either way, it is still largely by player's agency to pursue a relationship with a bisexual character and insist they're exclusively homosexual.
What Bioware did is progressive but is unfair to depend on one game developer and its limited amount of writers to satisfy all romantic fictional needs. LGBT romances have long existed but it is still a niche market in an established mainstream genre. I would have loved more pressure like this on big 5 publishers though.
I don't think Steve is defined by his sexuality. He's defined by being mopey and a bit boring.
At least when talking to the protagonist, his conversations with Vega are more fun. Fenris is rather similar in DA2. It's something that annoys me - when the protagonists relationship seems to be solely as a shoulder to cry on, and all the fun stuff is left to others. Of course its a bit better if you romance them
I agree that he's boring and mopey, but I would argue that both of those things are a result of Bioware focusing almost entirely on his sexuality. Compare him to Samantha and it's a night and day difference. The way in which they got across her sexuality to the player was far more subtle and effective than the overly dramatic sob story that is forced on the player almost from the very beginning of the game. After you talk to Steve the first time, the audio clip starts looping and the player is forced either into talking to him about it or be subjected to this poorly acted audio clip for the rest of the game.
Regardless of sexuality the husband message was pretty embarssing though. A military officer on duty listening to a private relationship message in an open area, potentionally distracting other crewmen from their duties. I'm certain this wouldn't be allowed on a modern day navay vessel. It speaks of a flagrant lack of professionalism and quite frankly arrogance on Cortez' part.
I do agree with this. It was pretty awkward and they should have had him mention his husband naturally through dialogue, not with a 'Steve's having a problem you should go speak to him!!1' thing and then bam crying Steve and ded husbando voice.
@Midnight Bliss: I'd be more interested in what archetypes you think are interesting as you have - in one form or another - covered most everything there can be.
Because one man's "interesting man with a checquered past" is another man's "brood emo badass" or "broken bird".
My only request... is that these NPCs be interested in pursuing their own agendas... not blindly following mine.
Lastly, the less something reflects upon real life... the less merit it has to me - so I'm totally against you with that one.
Also... some of your "archetypes" are laughably not archetypes in the sense of the word at all... but they sure are flame bait.
Agree. I don't care if they are "archetypes" as long as they have a personality and a reason for their decisions, and I can't change everyone's mind.
Some of their characters took me a while to enjoy, Jack and Zev were both hard for me to like, but eventually I found they are favorites and even before that, I found them interesting.
Personally I like most of the ones listed here and I don't mind a few old standby character types from past games and some of this group, but, I'd leave a lot of them back at the base.
I could do without the moody, brooding Fenris and Anders from DA2. Though even here I found the characters interesting, I just didn't like them. I did and do like Carth. And Sky.
Would be happy with any character based on Firefly.
There is nothing wrong with a feminist. Great characters who have feminist traits: 
Just about every female character Joss Whedon has created; Zoe, Faith, Kaylee and Buffy: Merida from Brave; River and Donna from Dr. Who; And YES Princess Leia who Killed her abuser Jabba. 
I'd like a variety of personalities to chose from and I'd like some of them to refuse a chance to work with my character.
repeating - I would rather not have any of them forced on me.
There is nothing wrong with a feminist.
I agree, as long as I can ignore and or kill them in game.
They can scream whatever bs they want to at me as I throw them into a airlock before jetting them out into space.
I agree, as long as I can ignore and or kill them in game.
They can scream whatever bs they want to at me as I throw them into a airlock before jetting them out into space.
You didn't like Firefly? Though there are a few characters I wanted to throw out also and I after letting him live once to see the story, I always kill Anders.
Kaidan was probably the closest they came to normality, but he's also typically beta, in line with gay stereotypes.
I think this is harsh on Kaidan. Shepard was literally Kaidan's superior officer. He is a bit reticent at times to offer his opinion because he's afraid of stepping over that line of command. I guess you can call that "beta," but "beta" is not usually a compliment, and I don't think this personality quirk of Kaidan's is a bad thing or makes him seem weak. He's definitely not weak. Keep in mind that he did actually stand up for someone he cared about, when the two were on equal footing (the girl from his school), and it sadly ended in disaster.
In ME2, he bitterly confronts Shepard; he certainly doesn't bow down to him or show him courtesy in any way shape or form. (p.s. This is actually one of my favorite scenes between Kaidan and a future-boyfriend-Shepard because it's just so painful; nothing Shepard says can defend him adequately from Kaidan's anger and disappointment.)
And in ME3, he again challenges Shepard. Then, once he's made a spectre, he and Shepard are finally equals; I honestly don't recall ANY moments of supplication or deference towards Shepard after that.
I personally don't like the terms "alpha" and "beta"; they're always applied to men, suggesting that to be "beta" is to be more "woman-like," which is seen as a bad thing (so there's a hint of unintentional misogyny there). I would describe Kaidan as quiet, thoughtful, intelligent, and principled. He will fight for what he believes in and he will stick by it.
Now if you're saying you want a loud, brash, "my way or the high way" (essentially a renegade Shepard) gay male love interest, then I agree we haven't seen that. But there's literally nothing, imo, about Kaidan that is a gay or bi stereotype!
There is nothing wrong with a feminist. Great characters who have feminist traits:
Although the ME series has tried to be post-feminist (which makes sense for a futuristic society) it tends to fail in places, what with its plethora of asari strippers and "Hey, Sweetheart" moments for FemShep.
But, I would think that any female (and male) character in ME would be a feminist, or would simply find not supporting equality between genders to just be a bizarre concept.
ME world does seem to be a world that no longer oppresses people based on skin color or sexuality, which is pretty awesome.
I think this is harsh on Kaidan. Shepard was literally Kaidan's superior officer. He is a bit reticent at times to offer his opinion because he's afraid of stepping over that line of command. I guess you can call that "beta," but "beta" is not usually a compliment, and I don't think this personality quirk of Kaidan's is a bad thing or makes him seem weak. He's definitely not weak. Keep in mind that he did actually stand up for someone he cared about, when the two were on equal footing (the girl from his school), and it sadly ended in disaster.
In ME2, he bitterly confronts Shepard; he certainly doesn't bow down to him or show him courtesy in any way shape or form. (p.s. This is actually one of my favorite scenes between Kaidan and a future-boyfriend-Shepard because it's just so painful; nothing Shepard says can defend him adequately from Kaidan's anger and disappointment.)
And in ME3, he again challenges Shepard. Then, once he's made a spectre, he and Shepard are finally equals; I honestly don't recall ANY moments of supplication or deference towards Shepard after that.
I personally don't like the terms "alpha" and "beta"; they're always applied to men, suggesting that to be "beta" is to be more "woman-like," which is seen as a bad thing (so there's a hint of unintentional misogyny there). I would describe Kaidan as quiet, thoughtful, intelligent, and principled. He will fight for what he believes in and he will stick by it.
Now if you're saying you want a loud, brash, "my way or the high way" (essentially a renegade Shepard) gay male love interest, then I agree we haven't seen that. But there's literally nothing, imo, about Kaidan that is a gay or bi stereotype!
I agree with this entirely and would only add that I didn't like how they made him bisexual for ME3 for no reason other than they needed another gay romance option for male Shepard.
I agree with this entirely and would only add that I didn't like how they made him bisexual for ME3 for no reason other than they needed another gay romance option for male Shepard.
I love that they did that. It was correcting a mistake they made back in ME1, when it was totally normal and okay to not offer any options for gay male protagonists. They screwed up, and they made up for it by making the romance that finally blossoms between Kaidan and Shepard seem really normal and quite sweet, to be honest.
I love that they did that. It was correcting a mistake they made back in ME1, when it was totally normal and okay to not offer any options for gay male protagonists. They screwed up, and they made up for it by making the romance that finally blossoms between Kaidan and Shepard seem really normal and quite sweet, to be honest.
Have Bioware themselves said it was a mistake?
- sexy alien men with awesome voices that intrigue you but immediately tell you they have a terminal disease <---Worst buzzkill ever.
And I agree, -no rehashes of old characters like Joker 2.0, Liara 2.0, or even Garrus 2.0. I freaking love Garrus, yes,. But there's only one Garrus.
-no bossy b****s. (Miranda, Cassandra)
-no whiney b****s. (Liara, Ashley)
-And no Vega-like characters unless you let us romance them.
- sexy alien men with awesome voices that intrigue you but immediately tell you they have a terminal disease <---Worst buzzkill ever.
And I agree, -no rehashes of old characters like Joker 2.0, Liara 2.0, or even Garrus 2.0. I freaking love Garrus, yes,. But there's only one Garrus.
-no bossy b****s. (Miranda, Cassandra)
-no whiney b****s. (Liara, Ashley)
-And no Vega-like characters unless you let us romance them.
They let you "romance" Vega in Citadel though. (With a lot of alcohol) 
On a serious note, Iron Bull is pretty much Vega (even voiced by the same guy), they are both muscled bound, subservient to the superior (like with Vivienne), and happy go lucky.
Thane reminded me of a typical Korean drama, someone always bounds to get some kind of cancer or terminal illness. It's weird how they said they created Thane to appeal to females, maybe the "caring, mother" nature or something, not saying it's true or not, but I was just thinking about Bioware's thoughts process when they want to have Thane to appeal to females and give him terminal disease. I wonder if people would have raged if Thane has died to an illness in ME3 instead of being killed by space ninja. Most of the people would have know about Thane dying in ME2, so they should know the relationship doesn't last long in the first place. Maybe it's not that he died, it was more how they go around to do it.
- sexy alien men with awesome voices that intrigue you but immediately tell you they have a terminal disease <---Worst buzzkill ever.
Because **** how I feel about you, you're already dead!
Have Bioware themselves said it was a mistake?
I don't know but I doubt it. The DA team never apologized for having no lesbians or gay men until DAI. At most you might get them saying "They wanted to but they feared the backlash" or some such thing.
I don't know but I doubt it. The DA team never apologized for having no lesbians or gay men until DAI. At most you might get them saying "They wanted to but they feared the backlash" or some such thing.
Well then we can't easily say it was a mistake. I mean, what's more likely? It was a legitimate mistake and they wanted to make up for it, or that they just needed another bisexual romance?
FMC-
Tsundere
Brooding / Emo badass.
Broken Bird
Remixes of old characters / insert character here 2.0s
Tough girl who don't need no man
Weird alien who doesn't understand humans and asks about their behavior all the time
Racial stereotypes of any kind
Anything related to social justice soapboxes, "inclusion" for the sake of inclusion, or making a statement on some real life issue
Tumblr anything
Forced token minority representation that requires changing lore for it to make sense or stands out from everything else for the wrong reason
Pinocchios
Obi-Wan teacher sage types
Tour guides
Dungeon Masters
Blind Devotion
PC superfans
Yes men/women
Probably more I forgot but, it's a start.
So no characters? got it!
Well then we can't easily say it was a mistake. I mean, what's more likely? It was a legitimate mistake and they wanted to make up for it, or that they just needed another bisexual romance?
Honestly I'm not really sure what you're asking. Why did they "need" another bisexual romance?
Honestly I'm not really sure what you're asking. Why did they "need" another bisexual romance?
Perhaps needed wasn't the right word. Maybe they just wanted another bi romance option for players who didn't like Steve.
Any ****** trait can be made interesting with the right spin on it. Just like even the most interesting and unique of characterization is wasted on a bad script and delivery. It's all about presentation, and all about how it relates to the context of the story, and the quality of the voice actor and animator.
There is 1 trait though that i'm sick of from these games. And that is the Eldritch Abomination and God of Evil trope bioware loves to beat us to death with when it comes to antagonists. Lately it seems it's the only badguy they know how to write as a main bad. Vitiate from Star Wars the Old Republic, The Reapers with mass effect, Corypheus with Dragon Age. It seems bioware loves writing a character who rarely fights and whose purpose is to drone on about how worthless life is and how much of a superior being they are. Basically, a character who talks down to the character and player in the dullest way possible, by talking down to their whole race and species.
I'd love instead, for bioware to make a protagonist whose just an *******. They don't want to wipe out all life, or turn themselves into a living god, or put a giant eyeball on the moon to trap everyone in a dream world. They just want power, political power to be exact, and to rule everything and ruin everyone elses day. Bioware wrote those characters well with some of the Venatori, ME2 era cerberus and the illusive man, definetly when it came to characters like Baras, Jadus, and Malleus from star wars, and even some of the new expansion stuff. They have the ability to do it, so I hope they do it.
So no characters? got it!
Yeah, this is one thread Bioware can go ahead and ignore in its entirety.
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