21 réponses à ce sujet

[Gwindor The Witchhunter]

I disagree with the assertion that Solas and Corypheaus are the same. 

 

Solas believes that he awoke in a world that was never meant to happen. If everything about what has been revealed about the pre-veil world is true, which i think it is, then he is logically right.  To him people were living under a consciousness utterly framed by the veil. Hence, he was under the initial impression that people were comparable to tranquils. But now, although he has not shown any intention to abandon his plans to lift the veil, he is beginning to struggle with himself as he starts to learn the "value" in people that transcends his primordial orientation and apprehensions. His in-game interactions with the inquisitor and cole have definitely given testimony to that.

 

Sera was definitely spot on when she said that Solas's head was stuck a thousand years in the past. I wonder about her. Is she in anyway connected with Andruil? Does that explain her gift with the bow and her weird dreams?The librarian seems to thinks that she's one of the elvhen.

 

Cole. This is where it gets tricky .At the end of Tresspasser when my inquisitor tries to dissuade Solas from his plans to lift the veil, im reminded of the post end game dialogue  between Inky and Cole at the skyhold feast . Where inky explains to Cole that people need their fear to remind them of what they gained and what they could lose. Perhaps,  the same message could be applied to Solas. That undoing the veil would be the same as Cole erasing the memory of fear from a person. The veil might just be as superficial to life as we know it as fear is as vain and foolish in how we allow it to mar our perception of the world.

[Addictress]

What do you mean a librarian thinks Sera is elvhen? Where?

[Reznore57]

What do you mean a librarian thinks Sera is elvhen? Where?

 

In Trespasser but it means Sera is an elf , which isn't new.

If you play a Dalish Inquisitor the spirit tells you the same thing , and as far as I know I wasn't playing an ancient elf.

[Gwindor The Witchhunter]

No, Elvhen specifically means ancient elves prior to the veil.

[Gwindor The Witchhunter]

It happens in the Trespasser DLC,  you go into a part of the Fade that houses an actual ancient elven library. Theres a spirit archivist there who refers to Sera as one of the old ancient elves/Elvhen.

[Nefla]

It happens in the Trespasser DLC,  you go into a part of the Fade that houses an actual ancient elven library. Theres a spirit archivist there who refers to Sera as one of the old ancient elves/Elvhen.

It actually says she's "one of the old ancient elves/Elvhen" or that she's an elf and it only knows one type of elf?

 

Anyway I think whether Solas turns out to be like Corypheus will be determined in the next game. Will he be a developed, interesting, sympathetic antagonist or will he be another generic evil wizard trying to destroy the world?

[Gervaise]

I think the spirit isn't as picky and Abelas and Solas; it recognises Sera as an elf, the same as it recognises a Dalish Inquisitor.   It could probably sense the magic in the blood, the same as Kieran does.   No doubt if she had met Flemeth, she would have acknowledged Sera as one of the People too, just might not be as approving as for a Dalish Inquisitor, about whom she says "You do the People proud."

The Dalish have always referred to themselves as the elvhen; they consider it the correct term for what they are.  It is Abelas who disparages the idea and says that they are merely shadows wearing vallaslin.

 

Sera is cagey at first about how she learnt her bow skills but eventually she admits that someone showed her, if she is friendly enough with you.   I will be very disappointed if it ever turned out that Sera was some ancient elf who lost her memory but I think it is extremely unlikely.   She is just what she appears; a city elf who no longer identifies herself as such.

[greenbrownblue]

I disagree with the assertion that Solas and Corypheaus are the same. 

Did not know that anybody actually thought they were both equally evil.... 

[Medhia_Nox]

@greenbrownblue:  True, I consider Solas far worse than Corypheus actually.

[greenbrownblue]

 

Sera was definitely spot on when she said that Solas's head was stuck a thousand years in the past. I wonder about her. Is she in anyway connected with Andruil? Does that explain her gift with the bow and her weird dreams?The librarian seems to thinks that she's one of the elvhen.

 

 

I will leave you a link to a post I made about Sera possibly being connected to a spirit. Still working on a vid for youtube. :/

http://forum.bioware...explain-it-all/

[greenbrownblue]

@greenbrownblue:  True, I consider Solas far worse than Corypheus actually.

Nah, they are not. Solas saved the world from the Evanuris (yeah, side effects were catastrophic for the elves, but still better than complete destruction). Before that he was freeing slaves, offering knowledge and growing a sanctuary. Corypheus - or actually Sethius Amladaris - released darkspawn upon Thedas. They both might use drastic measures to achieve their goals, but Solas only when he has to. Corypheus is completely merciless. Also, "In Hushed Whispers" we saw what happened to Thedas. Corypheus seeks to destroy everything (including the Tevinter Imperium that he swore to "restore"). Solas has not yet done any huge harm, all he has now are his plans. I do like it that the Trespasser DLC offers a choice: convince Solas to change his plans or kill him. You do not have that choice with Corypheus and this fact alone proves that on a scale from white to black Corypheus is black and Solas is grey. 

Btw, does not Solas always remind us to not to see things in black and white only ^^ ?

 

[ThePhoenixKing]

@greenbrownblue:  True, I consider Solas far worse than Corypheus actually.

 

Agreed. At least Cory was honest about the fact that he was an evil sorcerer with pretensions of godhood trying to destroy the world. Solas carries himself with this whole self-righteous, judgmental, "why do you make me hurt you?" attitude that just makes me want to smack him. This is a man (in the loosest sense of the term) who's actively planning on destroying the world, and all he can do is whinge about how much it's going to hurt him personally.

[AntiChri5]

Corypheus is Solas without the facade.

[Xerrai]

Corypheus is Solas without the facade.

But Corypheaus is also without mercy or an apparent capacity to feel sorrow at the world's plights. If Orlais and Ferelden fell, he would not care in the slightest.

Solas (regardless of his approval with the Inquisitor) will spare the Inquisitor in part because he knows that his/her death will cause meaningless strife, showing that he does care of the modern world in some degree. Even before then, it is shown that he approves of helping the poor and downtrodden regardless of race, clearly showing hiss capacity for sympathy and compassion.

 

I'd take Solas over Coryphaeus any day.

[greenbrownblue]

But Corypheaus is also without mercy or an apparent capacity to feel sorrow at the world's plights. If Orlais and Ferelden fell, he would not care in the slightest.

Solas (regardless of his approval with the Inquisitor) will spare the Inquisitor in part because he knows that his/her death will cause meaningless strife, showing that he does care of the modern world in some degree. Even before then, it is shown that he approves of helping the poor and downtrodden regardless of race, clearly showing hiss capacity for sympathy and compassion.

 

I'd take Solas over Coryphaeus any day.

Same here. And I am always gonna go for the option (in the Trespasser DLC) to convince Solas to change his plan. 

[AntiChri5]

But Corypheaus is also without mercy or an apparent capacity to feel sorrow at the world's plights. If Orlais and Ferelden fell, he would not care in the slightest.

Solas (regardless of his approval with the Inquisitor) will spare the Inquisitor in part because he knows that his/her death will cause meaningless strife, showing that he does care of the modern world in some degree. Even before then, it is shown that he approves of helping the poor and downtrodden regardless of race, clearly showing hiss capacity for sympathy and compassion.

 

I'd take Solas over Coryphaeus any day.

Corypheus is motivated mostly by sorrow at the worlds plight. He just has fucked up values.

 

He wants to "champion withered Tevinter and give this world the god it deserves".

 

To Cory the Imperium was humanities greatest achievement, a shining beacon of civilization that grew to encompass most of the known world, crafting wonders that have not been matched and civilizing barbarians. Raising humanity from irrelevance to the only power on the continent, casting down what was left of the old elven empire.

 

Now, though, it has faded to a shadow of it's former glory. Turning from the incredible power of him and his peers and losing wars against pathetic Soparati. Not to mention the mindless horned brutes who are not even a true race.

 

And what of gods? He calls out to Dumat, and is honestly shocked to receive no answer. In Corypheus' day the gods spoke to their followers. They did more then speak: they imparted knowledge, gifted their worshipers with power. But today? Everyone exalts an empty throne, singing the praises of a god they believe to have turned from them. He has been inside what everyone considers this gods house, and found it empty.

 

The multitudes call out to a false god they know will not answer. Corypheus was a high priest, his entire life built on religion. He cannot accept this in any way shape or form. Since the world lacks gods, he will become one. What does he care if the empire that has been denigrating Tevinter for centuries burns in the process. Once he is a god he can restore Tevinter and make all right with the world.

[Gervaise]

When someone wants to make the version of the world they think is the right one regardless of the implications for other people living within that world that is selfish, self-centred and evil.    

 

Corypheus thinks the world deserves something better than they currently have for a god; so he decided to put himself forward for the role.   He is at least honest about his motivations and acknowledges that taking such world changing actions is acting in a god-like way. Corypheus does not think of himself as evil.   He is trying  to put  the world back to how he remembered it.

 

Solas denies he is a god, yet still takes those god-like actions as though he is entitled to do so.   He admits that the current inhabitants deserve better than to be fried in the fiery chaos he plans to unleash; yet he still intends to proceed with his plan.  Solas does not think of himself as evil.   He is just trying to put the world back to how he remembered it. He doesn't acknowledge the existence of good and evil but only a person of moral relativism like him could proceed with a plan that is going to result in the suffering and death of millions and not accept that by doing so he is a monster and evil.   Giving them a few years of peaceful enjoyment does not mitigate what he intend to do.

 

So, yes, if you look at it through impartial eyes, Solas is worse than Corypheus.   He is also a steaming great hypocrite for all the times he has criticised others, including the Evanuris, for their actions and yet intends to do far worse.   

[Xerrai]

When someone wants to make the version of the world they think is the right one regardless of the implications for other people living within that world that is selfish, self-centred and evil.    

 

Corypheus thinks the world deserves something better than they currently have for a god; so he decided to put himself forward for the role.   He is at least honest about his motivations and acknowledges that taking such world changing actions is acting in a god-like way. Corypheus does not think of himself as evil.   He is trying  to put  the world back to how he remembered it.

 

Solas denies he is a god, yet still takes those god-like actions as though he is entitled to do so.   He admits that the current inhabitants deserve better than to be fried in the fiery chaos he plans to unleash; yet he still intends to proceed with his plan.  Solas does not think of himself as evil.   He is just trying to put the world back to how he remembered it. He doesn't acknowledge the existence of good and evil but only a person of moral relativism like him could proceed with a plan that is going to result in the suffering and death of millions and not accept that by doing so he is a monster and evil.   Giving them a few years of peaceful enjoyment does not mitigate what he intend to do.

 

So, yes, if you look at it through impartial eyes, Solas is worse than Corypheus.   He is also a steaming great hypocrite for all the times he has criticised others, including the Evanuris, for their actions and yet intends to do far worse.   

I wouldn't necessarily call Coryphaeus a person moral relativism, would you? He seems to draw quite distinctive lines of who is 'evil' and who is 'good'. He all but refutes the notion that he is an "evil monster" claiming that he has a right to do all that is doing.

 

But on the note of moral relativism: why is it bad that someone that one has this view? If Dragon Age has any one majorly recurring them, it is that what is "good" and "bad" are not clear cut. In fact it was those views that lead to major conflicts (mages are bad, Templars good! Mages are oppressed, Templars are beasts!) in the first place. I see no real way to say one is 'definitely' evil other than by way of opinion and not objectivism. Because objective answers of whos evil/good have all but demonstrated to be false or partially false as far as these games are concerned.

[Xerrai]

Corypheus is motivated mostly by sorrow at the worlds plight. He just has fucked up values.

 

He wants to "champion withered Tevinter and give this world the god it deserves".

 

To Cory the Imperium was humanities greatest achievement, a shining beacon of civilization that grew to encompass most of the known world, crafting wonders that have not been matched and civilizing barbarians. Raising humanity from irrelevance to the only power on the continent, casting down what was left of the old elven empire.

 

Now, though, it has faded to a shadow of it's former glory. Turning from the incredible power of him and his peers and losing wars against pathetic Soparati. Not to mention the mindless horned brutes who are not even a true race.

 

And what of gods? He calls out to Dumat, and is honestly shocked to receive no answer. In Corypheus' day the gods spoke to their followers. They did more then speak: they imparted knowledge, gifted their worshipers with power. But today? Everyone exalts an empty throne, singing the praises of a god they believe to have turned from them. He has been inside what everyone considers this gods house, and found it empty.

 

The multitudes call out to a false god they know will not answer. Corypheus was a high priest, his entire life built on religion. He cannot accept this in any way shape or form. Since the world lacks gods, he will become one. What does he care if the empire that has been denigrating Tevinter for centuries burns in the process. Once he is a god he can restore Tevinter and make all right with the world.

Fair enough. I often find it hard to see past the creepy-darkspawn magister that is not shy about his aspirations of godhood while he so callously disregards life. Open and closed case, I thought. But you argument is concise, and thinking upon it from his dialogue, discussions with Giselle and the voices from those memory crystals, I can see where you can draw those conclusions.

 

So for what its worth, good argument.

[ArcaneEsper]

I honestly feel that if Bioware actually bothered to flesh out Corypheus as a character he would have been way more interesting than people say Solas will be.

Cory had his faith shattered and went through the horror of being turned into a Darkspawn. I mean Solas on the other hand altered the very nature of existence and freaked out when that changed the nature of existence. And he still chooses to make that stupid decision again even though he knows it won't be all happiness and rainbows.

Also it might be worth saying that Solas is bringing back a world for himself while Cory wanted a better world (or arguably a God) for the people. Not gonna lie, Cory's way of going about it was messed up but Solas' isn't much better.

[Medhia_Nox]

Agreed. At least Cory was honest about the fact that he was an evil sorcerer with pretensions of godhood trying to destroy the world. Solas carries himself with this whole self-righteous, judgmental, "why do you make me hurt you?" attitude that just makes me want to smack him. This is a man (in the loosest sense of the term) who's actively planning on destroying the world, and all he can do is whinge about how much it's going to hurt him personally.

I could not like this post enough. 

[AntiChri5]

Fair enough. I often find it hard to see past the creepy-darkspawn magister that is not shy about his aspirations of godhood while he so callously disregards life. Open and closed case, I thought. But you argument is concise, and thinking upon it from his dialogue, discussions with Giselle and the voices from those memory crystals, I can see where you can draw those conclusions.

 

So for what its worth, good argument.

Don't have anything else to add to the topic, I just want to give you kudos for having the maturity and humility to not get sucked into the disagreement and acknowledge validity in the views of the "opposing" side. One wouldn't think it would require much, but sadly it seems to be too much for the average internet discussion.

 

So, thank you for your intelligence and civility.