158 réponses à ce sujet

[N7Jamaican]

Every Shepard is different than the next.  Your Shepard is far different than mine, even if we select the same background.  I don't mind a pre-determined character, as long as there is room to role-play.  I though ME1-ME3 allowed me to portray my Shepard the way I wanted.

[Revan Reborn]

Every Shepard is different than the next.  Your Shepard is far different than mine, even if we select the same background.  I don't mind a pre-determined character, as long as there is room to role-play.  I though ME1-ME3 allowed me to portray my Shepard the way I wanted.

I agree. I don't believe people give Mass Effect the credit it deserves in terms of flexibility. I was able to create my own personal Shepard through the character creator, through my background, as well as the various choices I made throughout the trilogy. There is no other Shepard in the world that is like mine. He is unique.

 

I think what this thread is really about is the dislike of not being able to create the background of the character entirely. That kind of scenario would only likely be possible in a game with a silent protagonist and where you actually start as a blank slate. Such expectations for Mass Effect are unrealistic because there is no tradition for it. Dragon Age was much more of a blank slate with DAO, but even it moved away from that approach in favor of a more defined character due to the popularity of Mass Effect. I don't see this trend changing.

[Deebo305]

Not as fan of blank slate, why this nobody is in power and commanding people is even more jarring imo.

In ME1, Shepard had feats and backgrounds to build off and each one offered something different. Like War Hero having to deal with a nuke about to be set off by merc wanting revenge, or Previous subordinate from Ruthless background going crazy and starting his cult, the Sole Survivor side mission is still great with the runaway ex slave needing to be talked down by a Shep who went through that

These moments were good and made Shepard less of puppet and more of person. Whereas Elf Inquisitor can get their whole can killed and not even get a mention until Trespasser DLC, thats 2 years later in game lol. Going to a new galaxy can rule alot of things out but you can still headcannon your buts off even with these little gems in place

[Midnight Bliss]

I don't believe people give Mass Effect the credit it deserves in terms of flexibility. I was able to create my own personal Shepard through the character creator, through my background, as well as the various choices I made throughout the trilogy. There is no other Shepard in the world that is like mine. He is unique.

I'm so glad somebody else said this, now I won't have to feel like that one villager yelling the Emperor has no clothes for a little while.

[Riven326]

Every Shepard is different than the next.  Your Shepard is far different than mine, even if we select the same background.  I don't mind a pre-determined character, as long as there is room to role-play.  I though ME1-ME3 allowed me to portray my Shepard the way I wanted.

I disagree. They're all pretty much the same with a different flavor. Shepard is, for the most part, a brick. The functionality of the dialogue wheel was reduced more and more as the series went on and it got to a point where in most situations you only had two options to choose from, and they usually represented two extremes. There was also more auto-dialogue in ME3 than any of the previous games. I think play agency took a back seat after ME1.

[Revan Reborn]

I disagree. They're all pretty much the same with a different flavor. Shepard is, for the most part, a brick. The functionality of the dialogue wheel was reduced more and more as the series went on and it got to a point where in most situations you only had two options to choose from, and they usually represented two extremes. There was also more auto-dialogue in ME3 than any of the previous games. I think play agency took a back seat after ME1.

In fairness, ME3 had a lot of ground to cover because there were a lot of loose-ends that needed to be tied up. Auto-dialogue, while undesirable, was necessary to move the plot forward and conclude the trilogy.

 

I think the issue here is you are suggesting Shepard is only based on his/her choices and nothing else. While you may have been a paragon and I may have been a paragon, where we the same class? Gender? Have the same LI? Wear the same armor? I understand the point you are making, but I believe you are being somewhat unfair when we actually had quite a bit of control over who Shepard was. We couldn't flat out write his/her dialogue, but we had the flexibility to pretty much do everything else.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

All Shepards are pretty much the same character except for the nuances we head canon that are not in the game. Let us not kid ourselves. We are stepping in and playing a role. What is needed is a good story premise and solid character background. Yes that makes for a pre-defined character, but face the facts, Shepard was a pre-defined character anyway. (S)He was never really "our" Shepard. We were never really Shepard despite the marketing hype Hudson spewed. 

 

You know, if BioWare listened to all the complaints on the board and built a game based on those alone it would be Destiny. Your character is the perfect blank slate. You don't have to deal with any ninjamancing. There are no squadmates that are forced upon you. In fact, there are no squadmates at all. You don't have to deal with silly tropes in the story because there was no story... it was all put in grimoire cards. You don't have to deal with moral dilemmas being handled wrong because there are no moral dilemmas. 

 

However, the gunplay is near perfect. The environment and scoring is beautiful. The PvE AI is excellent. The multi-player maps are well designed and the match-making is near perfect. All that is missing is a horde mode. But then you do have the strikes. 

 

But I think people want story content and actual role playing for ME: A. I don't want a brick. Let's make the story a good one.

[Revan Reborn]

All Shepards are pretty much the same character except for the nuances we head canon that are not in the game. Let us not kid ourselves. We are stepping in and playing a role. What is needed is a good story premise and solid character background. Yes that makes for a pre-defined character, but face the facts, Shepard was a pre-defined character anyway. (S)He was never really "our" Shepard. We were never really Shepard despite the marketing hype Hudson spewed. 

 

You know, if BioWare listened to all the complaints on the board and built a game based on those alone it would be Destiny. Your character is the perfect blank slate. You don't have to deal with any ninjamancing. There are no squadmates that are forced upon you. In fact, there are no squadmates at all. You don't have to deal with silly tropes in the story because there was no story... it was all put in grimoire cards. You don't have to deal with moral dilemmas being handled wrong because there are no moral dilemmas. 

 

However, the gunplay is near perfect. The environment and scoring is beautiful. The PvE AI is excellent. The multi-player maps are well designed and the match-making is near perfect. All that is missing is a horde mode. But then you do have the strikes. 

 

But I think people want story content and actual role playing for ME: A. I don't want a brick. Let's make the story a good one.

I simply disagree. Part of the reason I do is because it was a collaborative ownership. BioWare wrote the dialogue and the story, but I determined what Shepard looked like, Shepard's gender, who Shepard romanced, as well as what kind of mental mindset Shepard had. Yes, we don't have absolute control, but we do have control over the options we are given. There is a distinction here that should be made.

 

Especially when I imported my Shepard from one game to the next, it felt like I was taking a piece of myself or my own history into the next experience. The reason I feel so strongly about this is because I decided to test out how playing ME2 would be without an imported character. It wasn't the same at all. The character didn't feel like it was mine. There were choices I didn't get to decide and I was immediately turned off. I couldn't play the game with a Shepard that wasn't mine.

 

You are really suggesting Mass Effect should be Destiny? Sorry, but your argument just lost all credibility. Bungie is a horrible storyteller, as you have noted. They have never been good at story, with Halo: CE being the only coherent story they ever wrote. I agree the gunplay in Destiny is great. However, the rest of the game is beyond boring. I beta tested the game and after a few days was so bored I wasn't even interested in logging in. Destiny is on the complete opposite spectrum of what Mass Effect is. If anything, Destiny is proven evidence of what not to do with a game, especially considering its story and lore are so horrendous.

 

Environments were linear and Bungie hid the low resolution textures by having too much lighting and bloom. PvE AI is no better than it was in Halo and the fact that there is no level scaling and some enemies just have "???" over their head is an immediate immersion killer because you are incapable of killing some mobs due to your level. Destiny matchmaking, again, is just Halo re-skinned and nothing new. There literally isn't anything original about Destiny. It's a well-made game. It's just a well-made boring game. Strikes, which are just their MMO dungeons, are beyond boring.

 

You really think Shepard was a brick compared to the protagonist in Destiny? That I just don't understand. You may not have had as much control over Shepard as you clearly wanted, but he/she was far from a brick. I will be glad if MEA shares absolutely nothing in common with Destiny. That would be a mistake in direction.

[rocklikeafool]

As long as it's not one of WotC's abominations.

 

You're awful. Like, truly bad.

[Andrew Lucas]

I wouldn't really take issue if they made a family member a squadmate/prominent NPC. It was a definite strength of DA2 to tell a story where the player got to explore the sibling relationship. Equally baldurs gate has Imoen who is a childhood friend. As long as the player is given ability to characterise the relationship i don't have an issue with this sort of definition if it provides story and roleplaying benefits. Equally if its going to be something much smaller I think the notion of Shep's spacer mother was decently done. Complete blank slate isn't necessarily a good thing anymore than complete definement.

Here, here.

[Riven326]

In fairness, ME3 had a lot of ground to cover because there were a lot of loose-ends that needed to be tied up. Auto-dialogue, while undesirable, was necessary to move the plot forward and conclude the trilogy.

 

I think the issue here is you are suggesting Shepard is only based on his/her choices and nothing else. While you may have been a paragon and I may have been a paragon, where we the same class? Gender? Have the same LI? Wear the same armor? I understand the point you are making, but I believe you are being somewhat unfair when we actually had quite a bit of control over who Shepard was. We couldn't flat out write his/her dialogue, but we had the flexibility to pretty much do everything else.

The character never really developed beyond the initial creation process. What you're describing is more flavor than substance.

[Revan Reborn]

The character never really developed beyond the initial creation process. What you're describing is more flavor than substance.

Flavor. Substance. I think that's a matter of perspective. Certainly, BioWare had a desired voice and that remained consistent throughout the trilogy. However, to say we still didn't have control over how we used that voice is a disservice to how much player agency we actually did have. There are pros and cons to having a pre-defined character versus a blank slate. I just believe, for BioWare's purposes, that they didn't do anything horribly wrong with how they handled Shepard. Certainly, the games were a huge success and very popular, so many folks must not have cared that much.

[Riven326]

Flavor. Substance. I think that's a matter of perspective. Certainly, BioWare had a desired voice and that remained consistent throughout the trilogy. However, to say we still didn't have control over how we used that voice is a disservice to how much player agency we actually did have. There are pros and cons to having a pre-defined character versus a blank slate. I just believe, for BioWare's purposes, that they didn't do anything horribly wrong with how they handled Shepard. Certainly, the games were a huge success and very popular, so many folks must not have cared that much.

The point is the character was never really given a chance to develop beyond the choices given to the player between love interest, background, psych profile, etc.

[Revan Reborn]

The point is the character was never really given a chance to develop beyond the choices given to the player between love interest, background, psych profile, etc.

That, right there, shows character growth. I guess a better question to ask is how much do you need? I think BioWare has been able to find a sweet spot of telling the story they want with the protagonist they want. BioWare, in turn, gives us creative liberties on how we define that protagonist, what his/her moral code is, who he/she falls in love with (or doesn't), as well as all the various choices and the consequences as well as returning companions and NPCs we see because of those choices. It's very much a collaborative experience of both BioWare and the player building this character together. We didn't create Shepard's foundation. However, we get to define who he/she ultimately is and how he/she handles being the galaxy's savior.

[Rainbow Wyvern]

a return to playable origins like... origins would be nice, but i can't see how it'd work in  andromeda. something like the shepard's choice of how you grew up, what happened during your military career would be best. but maybe with more options. earthborn who wasn't an orphan, maybe.

 

now hopefully bioware allows the player to keep player agency this time around, because slowly losing control over your character over 3 games was bad. unless pathfinder starts out more defined, then whatever. but allowing me to build my character (with admittedly limited options, shep in 2 and 3 was an emotionless pole) and then streamlining them later is bleh. 

[Hair Serious Business]

In fairness, Fallout 4's setting is a futuristic idealized 1950s America gone wrong. While the games have never breached the social issues of that time entirely (such as racism and Jim Crow), sexuality obviously wasn't something openly explored or accepted. That's not to say that Fallout shouldn't promote open sexuality, but given the plot and where the protagonist came from (before the bombs dropped), it's not unreasonable why BGS decided to make the decisions they did.

 

Of course, the player could always headcanon they were a closet gay and were hiding their sexuality for fear of persecution? It may not be ideal but when you have to define the parameters of a protagonist to some degree, you inevitably lose player agency.

 

Missed point.

 

That was example. My problem with FO4 is that I can't RP! I can try to close eyes and pretend whole husband/wife never existed, I can pretend I never had kid but how when everything in game that I do leads to me being someone's black widow and some Satanic child's mother/father. Entire game reminds you, your companions remind you on this = impossible to RP in FO4 if it doesn't involve "I was married, had a kid.". Kudos to people who actually managed to play dumb at whole married/kid case and stay with their RP of never being married and had kid till the end, but I can't if everything in game is already decided for me upfront.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

I simply disagree. Part of the reason I do is because it was a collaborative ownership. BioWare wrote the dialogue and the story, but I determined what Shepard looked like, Shepard's gender, who Shepard romanced, as well as what kind of mental mindset Shepard had. Yes, we don't have absolute control, but we do have control over the options we are given. There is a distinction here that should be made.

 

Especially when I imported my Shepard from one game to the next, it felt like I was taking a piece of myself or my own history into the next experience. The reason I feel so strongly about this is because I decided to test out how playing ME2 would be without an imported character. It wasn't the same at all. The character didn't feel like it was mine. There were choices I didn't get to decide and I was immediately turned off. I couldn't play the game with a Shepard that wasn't mine.

 

You are really suggesting Mass Effect should be Destiny? Sorry, but your argument just lost all credibility. Bungie is a horrible storyteller, as you have noted. They have never been good at story, with Halo: CE being the only coherent story they ever wrote. I agree the gunplay in Destiny is great. However, the rest of the game is beyond boring. I beta tested the game and after a few days was so bored I wasn't even interested in logging in. Destiny is on the complete opposite spectrum of what Mass Effect is. If anything, Destiny is proven evidence of what not to do with a game, especially considering its story and lore are so horrendous.

 

Environments were linear and Bungie hid the low resolution textures by having too much lighting and bloom. PvE AI is no better than it was in Halo and the fact that there is no level scaling and some enemies just have "???" over their head is an immediate immersion killer because you are incapable of killing some mobs due to your level. Destiny matchmaking, again, is just Halo re-skinned and nothing new. There literally isn't anything original about Destiny. It's a well-made game. It's just a well-made boring game. Strikes, which are just their MMO dungeons, are beyond boring.

 

You really think Shepard was a brick compared to the protagonist in Destiny? That I just don't understand. You may not have had as much control over Shepard as you clearly wanted, but he/she was far from a brick. I will be glad if MEA shares absolutely nothing in common with Destiny. That would be a mistake in direction.

 

In Mass Effect we were able to make our character face. We were able to pick our love interest if we wanted one. We were able to choose our character's gender. But in reality we had only so much we could do. There really was no consequence to making the choice of killing the rachni queen. Jerk ass Shepard was just as well loved by his/her crew as Paragon Shepard. So in effect they were the same. You could shoot Wrex in ME1 and none of your crew would really care, in fact Ashley would do it for you if you didn't want to get your hands dirty. But did it change the character in the end? No. Because there were no consequences to your actions. This is what I was getting at. 

 

I absolutely don't want it to be like Destiny. Bungie is a horrible story teller. While I play Destiny a lot, I play it because a lot of my friends play it and we play the multi-player, the raids, and stuff like that. It has nothing to do with the story. So it's reskinned Halo. 

 

But for I want story. I want character development. I'd like to have the player character to show some emotion with the dialogue options. We know the player character will have a "team". This is typical of BW games. I would like to have the team members react to the way the player character does certain things. The Dragon Age games did this a lot better than the Mass Effect series, but I think it still could be done better.

 

There is only so much you can do with a computer role playing game. You can give an illusion of choice. But eventually you have to bring things back together and tie up things in the end especially if you're going to have a sequel. Unless you're simply going to declare one of them canon and ignore player choice in the matter. That is always a possibility.  

[Dunmer of Redoran]

I like one of two approaches:

 

(1) Create a background that can be chosen (DA:Origins style)

 

(2) Make the player character a blank slate (Mass Effect, or any of the ES games)

 

 

Forced backgrounds remove so much of the RP aspect from the character. I love Bethesda RPGs, I even loved Fallout 4, but I hope they never have a protagonist with a premade background in a game again. Mass Effect had somes pecific backgrounds, but other than some historical information, I was free to make whatever decisions I wanted with my Shepard. That kind of background system would be fine.

[Revan Reborn]

Missed point.

 

That was example. My problem with FO4 is that I can't RP! I can try to close eyes and pretend whole husband/wife never existed, I can pretend I never had kid but how when everything in game that I do leads to me being someone's black widow and some Satanic child's mother/father. Entire game reminds you, your companions remind you on this = impossible to RP in FO4 if it doesn't involve "I was married, had a kid.". Kudos to people who actually managed to play dumb at whole married/kid case and stay with their RP of never being married and had kid till the end, but I can't if everything in game is already decided for me upfront.

My only response is the main quest is optional. Just like in Skyrim, you don't have to be Dovahkiin. In Oblivion, you don't have to be the Hero of Kvatch. In Morrowind, you don't have to be the Neravarine. Sure, you can't avoid the prologue (unless you use a mod to skip it), but 80% of the content in Fallout 4 does not revolve around finding the protagonist's kid. Did you have a similar issue with Fallout 3? BGS has always provided a prologue and more of an introduction to Fallout than they have with The Elder Scrolls.

 

In Mass Effect we were able to make our character face. We were able to pick our love interest if we wanted one. We were able to choose our character's gender. But in reality we had only so much we could do. There really was no consequence to making the choice of killing the rachni queen. Jerk ass Shepard was just as well loved by his/her crew as Paragon Shepard. So in effect they were the same. You could shoot Wrex in ME1 and none of your crew would really care, in fact Ashley would do it for you if you didn't want to get your hands dirty. But did it change the character in the end? No. Because there were no consequences to your actions. This is what I was getting at. 

 

I absolutely don't want it to be like Destiny. Bungie is a horrible story teller. While I play Destiny a lot, I play it because a lot of my friends play it and we play the multi-player, the raids, and stuff like that. It has nothing to do with the story. So it's reskinned Halo. 

 

But for I want story. I want character development. I'd like to have the player character to show some emotion with the dialogue options. We know the player character will have a "team". This is typical of BW games. I would like to have the team members react to the way the player character does certain things. The Dragon Age games did this a lot better than the Mass Effect series, but I think it still could be done better.

 

There is only so much you can do with a computer role playing game. You can give an illusion of choice. But eventually you have to bring things back together and tie up things in the end especially if you're going to have a sequel. Unless you're simply going to declare one of them canon and ignore player choice in the matter. That is always a possibility.  

Rachni queen was a retcon that was unintentional and unfortunate. Would you prefer if all of your companions hated you and left? Mass Effect 2's suicide mission would not have been able to work if making all your companions leave based on you being a jerk was possible. Wrex was a hostile, merc krogan in ME1 and nobody knew him. Why would they sympathize when he was ready to attack Shepard over Saren creating a cure to the genophage?

 

There were plenty of consequences to your actions. If there weren't, we wouldn't have had a save import feature where our choices actually changed various aspects of the world state. That being said, not everything we did necessarily would change the world state. Again, some retcons were made for the writers to tell the story they wanted. It was bad planning.

 

It is a re-skinned Halo, which is why I found it bizarre you even brought Destiny up. It literally has nothing in common with Mass Effect, and I'm perfectly happy with that.

 

Honestly, I've felt Dragon Age has been the weaker franchise out of the two. Each game has its own identity crisis and can't make up what it is. Each successive story is more convoluted than the last creating more questions than answers. Not to mention, the protagonist is progressively becoming more bland and worse in each new game. I love Dragon Age, but BioWare needs to shake up their writing team. I'm glad David Gaider left, because he was running Dragon Age into the ground. DAO was by far the best and the series has been going downhill ever sense.

 

I doubt BioWare will dictate canon endings. They don't like retconning anything if they can help it. The only thing we can hope for is that Andromeda was planned better than ME1-3 so that our illusion of choice isn't shattered and we have much more player agency in that our choices truly have varying consequences.

[Drakoriz]

In fact leave it as bland as Bruce Wayne's personality. That is how our character's backstory should be none-existent.

 

Here is why. I replayed FO4 and tried to play as female for change because I'm female myself and of course I'm going to relate to female more...however once more I chose male. Why? Simply because I don't want to be someone's housewife, widow and crying mother for rest of game....in fact I have same problem as male, it just ruins every headcanon I might have had!

 

"Ummm...you could RP?" Yes but it is almost impossible. How. Lets say I want to RP character that is gay, yes I could get story in my head how he/she only got married and got kid for appearances and ~yada yada~ once vault is over I'm free...or should be to do whatever the heck I want and make story I want. However again impossible. Everything about you goes being father/mother to some brat you don't give a damn about and your entire story revolves about that. So impossible to close your eyes and "lets pretend" I never was married and had kid in game because of it.

In another words I hate everything about FO4 protagonist's backstory and how much it is forced on you trough entire game. How every headcanon you had can go straight to hell. It would have been better if wife/husband were some kind of relatives and whoever we don't play...then the brat is theirs (headcanon could be their husband/wife died during war or something and now you are helping them out), it would be way better because it wouldn't screw anyone's headcanon for their character in here!

 

This is why I don't want anything like this to be for ME:A character. In fact nothing even like what we had in previous ME games. No special backstory about them. No family. No nothing. Just give us player with basic info(their last name, that they are serving/commanding -something), in another words gives us everything that is present about character and leave their past blank as possible...in another words just leave their "special past" to us.

 

nope this is a Bioware game, normaly our Character have a backstory.

[Timberley]

I liked the brief background choices we got in ME1 myself.  The wording was vague enough that you could add flavour to the descriptions to flesh it out a bit more.  Certainly my primary character (Cara Shepard) had a comprehensive back story that I wrote based upon the brief lines, that was possibly different to other players who had made the same choices.  

 

But, I tend to think of modern CRPGs as interactive novels, with you having an input into how the character would respond to a given scenario.  My protagonist is the main character in this novel, and responds based upon extrapolating this brief back story to the current day.  For example, when choosing dialogue in ME, I always thought 'what would Cara say', not 'what would I say'.  So, I'd like a very brief selection of things we could make that would allow us to extrapolate a personality for our Pathfinder, and use it to react accordingly.  Plus, if it does become a trilogy again, then the Pathfinder can grow and change outwith the explicit story.  For example, Cara was a Logical Renegade in ME1, but by ME3 she did things more because of her emotions and instincts than through pure analysis and logic.

 

Tim

[AlanC9]

That was example. My problem with FO4 is that I can't RP! I can try to close eyes and pretend whole husband/wife never existed, I can pretend I never had kid but how when everything in game that I do leads to me being someone's black widow and some Satanic child's mother/father. Entire game reminds you, your companions remind you on this = impossible to RP in FO4 if it doesn't involve "I was married, had a kid.". Kudos to people who actually managed to play dumb at whole married/kid case and stay with their RP of never being married and had kid till the end, but I can't if everything in game is already decided for me upfront.

Technically, it isn't that you can't RP, it 's that you can only RP certain kinds of characters. Just as in ME you could only RP as the sort of person who would have joined the Alliance military and stayed there.

[AlanC9]

Honestly, I've felt Dragon Age has been the weaker franchise out of the two. Each game has its own identity crisis and can't make up what it is. Each successive story is more convoluted than the last creating more questions than answers. Not to mention, the protagonist is progressively becoming more bland and worse in each new game. I love Dragon Age, but BioWare needs to shake up their writing team. I'm glad David Gaider left, because he was running Dragon Age into the ground. DAO was by far the best and the series has been going downhill ever sense.

What's wrong with the italed?

[Revan Reborn]

What's wrong with the italed?

It's hard to take Dragon Age seriously when it, in turn, does not take its fans seriously. I'm tired of going into the next game and leaving with more questions than answers. BioWare doesn't need to hide the ball every single game. I doubt BioWare even has any well-conceived in goal for what they are doing with Dragon Age. I'd just prefer a bit more transparency and quality treatment towards the fans when you expect them to constantly buy these games. Mass Effect was the opposite as we continued to answer more questions throughout the trilogy. Dragon Age has never been that way, which is why I've never considered it anywhere as compelling as Mass Effect. I preferred DAO's approach. It was much more concise, succinct, and straight to the point. DA2 and DAI, especially, are just muddled messes likely suffering from writer's block because even the writing team doesn't know where to take the series.

[Mdizzletr0n]

I don't mind a backstop if it actually mattered. Shepard's sure didnt. Why would a spacer really give a rats ass about earth if they've never lived there? Why would they be attached?

Since the back stories don't really matter, it doesn't seem all that different from a blank slate character. You're going to be railroaded into the direction of the narrative anyways.