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[Master Warder Z_]

Except that by the point of Mars, TIM was indoctrinated and had turned his mooks into pseudo-husks.

The book also counters that with the Grayson experiments. Which the game haphazardly tries to counter at Horizon. TIM saw in Retribution that basing existing tech off the Reaper platform was better then using it wholesale as it was unreliable and he admitted it.

Because during the introdocination experiments Grayson broke out and slaughtered his way across the research station.

._.

That said I am not saying anything new here, they wrecked any sort of character consistencies between ME 2 and 3 and try to play it off. I mean it would be one thing if the game outright ignores the book but it doesn't and if you lay a fraction of attention you see where the character transition from 2 to 3 utterly fails.

He made mistakes that he acknowledged he wouldn't. The tech was useful but without a method to bypass or supplement introdocination its worthless.

[Sifr]

True, Cerberus, the Geth and the Reapers all had their motivations altered a lot between ME2 and ME3 as well.

 

While I don't hate the changes as much as others do, it was certainly a major setback when Drew Karpyshyn left after ME2. The writing definitely suffered as a result of the changeover, as well as throwing his proposed dark energy ending away (even if it does have problems as well).

[Master Warder Z_]

I miss Drew

[vbibbi]

The dental and vision.

[Sifr]

The dental and vision.

 

Not that she really needs them, since her father probably designed her to have such perfect eyes and teeth that she'd never have much need to see an optician or dentist in her life... but hey, if you get company benefits, you might as well use them?

 

[vbibbi]

Not that she really needs them, since her father probably designed her to have such perfect eyes and teeth that she'd never have much need to see an optician or dentist in her life... but hey, if you get company benefits, you might as well use them?
 

One can never be too careful. Especially since the dossier on her in LotSB shows that her health isn't as robust as she'd like

[Sifr]

One can never be too careful. Especially since the dossier on her in LotSB shows that her health isn't as robust as she'd like

 

I always assumed that her infertility was an intentional design flaw that her father included in her genetic makeup, as preventing both Miranda and Oriana from having their own children would be another means of control he could hold over them. Based on everything we know about Henry Lawson, it's totally in-character for him for have done that.

[DeathScepter]

I always assumed that her infertility was an intentional design flaw that her father included in her genetic makeup, as preventing both Miranda and Oriana from having their own children would be another means of control he could hold over them. Based on everything we know about Henry Lawson, it's totally in-character for him for have done that.

 

 

I do think and still do that He would make a better villain than an Indoctrinated T.I.M. In the sense that he wanted 2 things, power and legacy. So willingfully joining the Reapers to ensure his legacy and power. a Promise of Godhood and able to watch over the galaxy to do as he wish would be a hook that potentially the Reaper could have used. Keep in his character, to be a god is a power trip that allows him to have control of whomever he wishes.

 

Keeping in the themes of a Lovecraft lite of ME1 and ME2, Henry Lawson using the indoctrination devices to gain members to make it easier for Reapers take over the galaxy. Indoctrinating Business leaders, Secularist Leaders and Religious Leaders to glory to the name of the Reapers. For example, Indoctrinating Business Leaders and their employees to have hostile takeovers(and using Indoctrination devices) of rival companies to re-direct their resources to make compounds and fleetings. Secularist and Religious leaders to influence their followers to worship the Reapers and place Indoctrination Devices in their meeting places or forums to make an army for the Reapers to use as they will.  Imagine your best friend gunning you down due to a heated argument about the Reapers. Or A Well known Atheist Author encouraging Suicide bombing. or Lawyers using the Law to stop Alliance and Council Races in stopping the Reapers.

[RakhanaBby]

What I wanna know is how the HECK did The Illusive Man been able to hide the fact that Henry Lawson was secretly employed by Cerberus?

How long did it take before Miranda even find THAT out?

[Catastrophy]

Plastic surgery specialists.

[Master Warder Z_]

What I wanna know is how the HECK did The Illusive Man been able to hide the fact that Henry Lawson was secretly employed by Cerberus?

How long did it take before Miranda even find THAT out?

Retcons

[Sifr]

What I wanna know is how the HECK did The Illusive Man been able to hide the fact that Henry Lawson was secretly employed by Cerberus?

How long did it take before Miranda even find THAT out?

 

Didn't she say that she already knew that her father was involved with Cerberus?

 

I always figured the reason she joined was because TIM is the one person she knew her father wouldn't dare to cross. By making herself invaluable to TIM and eventually becoming his top lieutenant, it was the best way to ensure her father remained at bay.

[Master Warder Z_]

Didn't she say that she already knew that her father was involved with Cerberus?

I always figured the reason she joined was because TIM is the one person she knew her father wouldn't dare to cross. By making herself invaluable to TIM and eventually becoming his top lieutenant, it was the best way to ensure her father remained at bay.

As a financial backer. Not a researcher.

[Sifr]

As a financial backer. Not a researcher.

 

But does him working as a researcher for Cerberus really end up being different than a financier, when it comes to Miranda seeking TIM to keep him from coming after her, despite knowing that her father is already associated with him?

 

TIM might be able to keep the various cells separate and isolated from each other so no-one save him knows what they are all doing, but a lot of people in Cerberus knew Miranda was one of TIM's top operatives, so this information would have eventually trickled down the vine to Henry at some point.

 

I suspect that both knew (or suspected) the other was involved in Cerberus, but TIM served as their mutual buffer and would arrange things so they never would cross paths. Besides that, Henry doesn't necessarily seem invested in reclaiming Miranda as so much finding out where she hid Oriana, as he'd all but given up on Miranda by the time she escaped to join Cerberus.

[vbibbi]

What I wanna know is how the HECK did The Illusive Man been able to hide the fact that Henry Lawson was secretly employed by Cerberus?

How long did it take before Miranda even find THAT out?

Was he researching the Reapers for Cerberus prior to ME3? I thought Sanctuary was only created as a response to the invasion. Of course, Cerberus probably had the facility for some time, but is there information whether Henry Lawson was brought on years ago or just recently?

[Master Warder Z_]

But does him working as a researcher for Cerberus really end up being different than a financier, when it comes to Miranda seeking TIM to keep him from coming after her, despite knowing that her father is already associated with him?

 

Yes.

 

Because its utterly different, because Lawson was only writing checks for the organization.

 

He was donating to it, he's one of the pieces of the Alliance military industrial complex that keeps it afloat. That's something he ceased doing when she became involved with the organization, there is no direct affiliation beyond money.

[Sifr]

Yes.

 

Because its utterly different, because Lawson was only writing checks for the organization.

 

He was donating to it, he's one of the pieces of the Alliance military industrial complex that keeps it afloat. That's something he ceased doing when she became involved with the organization, there is no direct affiliation beyond money.

 

But Miranda is definitely smart enough to have figured out his involvement probably far deeper than simply writing checks.

 

TIM loves to have his people performing the scientific equivalent of black magic. He's had people in the past create super-biotics, attempt to find ways to control the Thorian, Rachni, Geth and Husks to create supersoldiers, attempted to control the Reapers, brought Shepard back from the dead, created clones of Shepard for spare parts... to name some of the more infamous examples of what their scientists have been involved with.

 

Someone like Henry Lawson - a man who is so much of a narcissist he used his own DNA as the sole template with which to create designer clones of the opposite sex - is just the kind of man who TIM would have on Cerberus' payroll, not just funding it.

[Master Warder Z_]

But Miranda is definitely smart enough to have figured out his involvement probably far deeper than simply writing checks.

 

Miranda literally states that her father donated heavily to Cerberus, that's it, and that ended when she joined them. That's his involvement pre Mass Effect 3, which is to say none.

[Daemonesque]

I haven't read the novels or comics (yet), so you'll have to forgive any potential ignorance on my part if I've missed any important details, but...could it not simply be that Henry Lawson cut funding when Miranda joined Cerberus, and then he got involved with them again once she left? Does it really seem so improbable that the biggest narcissist in the galaxy would make the petulant decision to cut funding because in his eyes, they stole his daughter/investment? And he'd probably come crawling back (although I doubt he'd see it that way, because he's too self-absorbed and thinks too highly of himself to ever imagine himself "crawling") because he wants what Cerberus can give him, once she abandons the organization. Of course, The Illusive Man is very good at what he does, and he's the only one with full insight into Cerberus, so it's perfectly possible Henry Lawson kept working with Cerberus all along and Miranda was kept in the dark about her father's continued involvement.

 

Of course, (and this ties into the OP's original question) Miranda clearly idolizes The Illusive Man, who is like her father in many ways but, at least on the surface, wants to nurture rather than control her, I can certainly see that appeal to her. In addition to that, The Illusive Man probably admires Miranda and sees her not just as a useful tool but also as everything he wants from humanity. Ultimately, she ends up trading one father figure for another, and the second just does a better job of manipulating her.

[Abedsbrother]

[snip] Miranda clearly idolizes The Illusive Man, who is like her father in many ways but, at least on the surface, wants to nurture rather than control her, I can certainly see that appeal to her. In addition to that, The Illusive Man probably admires Miranda and sees her not just as a useful tool but also as everything he wants from humanity. Ultimately, she ends up trading one father figure for another, and the second just does a better job of manipulating her.

I think you've misunderstood Miranda if you think she "idolizes" any thing / one - including the Illusive Man or Shepard. TIM didn't see her as anything other than a useful part of his machine (much like Shepard) - when she left, as we learn in ME3, TIM was regretful, but not nostalgic ("he said it had been a pleasure to work with me, but he needed to contain the situation").

 

Miranda stays with Cerberus because she "believes in what Cerberus stands for"  - which is the protection and advancement of humanity (it didn't hurt that she was in many ways the poster child for that agenda). She leaves Cerberus because The Illusive Man would prioritize advancement (salvaging the baby Reaper) over protection (destroying the Collector base) (salvaging the Reaper would "seem like a betrayal" [of humanity] - using a genocide of humans to advance the remaining humans). That's one of the (perhaps poorly articulated) stories of ME2: Miranda's time with Shepard helps her choose between protection and advancement. This is why her loyalty mission involving her sister Oriana is important.

 

Further, the fact that she sought Shepard's involvement in helping Oriana indicates that she was already aware of her own limitations (even if, at first, she sought Shep's assistance as a security blanket, not because she thought she would need it). Additionally indicating that despite being one of the prime examples of human "advancement", there were things that not even she could accomplish - pointing to her growing recognition that Cerberus "advancement" rhetoric was starting to ring false on some level (or maybe it always rang false; she just liked being appreciated for what she could do, as opposed to what she was). Her conversations in her cabin further contribute to this, as she comes to a new understanding of what it means to be human (the struggle - the reason that the only things she thinks she can really take credit for are her failures, not her successes). 

[Master Warder Z_]

I haven't read the novels or comics (yet), so you'll have to forgive any potential ignorance on my part if I've missed any important details, but...could it not simply be that Henry Lawson cut funding when Miranda joined Cerberus, and then he got involved with them again once she left? 

 

Possible but we would need a time table on the six month gap for that to work out.

 

I mean this would work better if the there was more then just six months between Arrival/ ME 2 and ME 3

[Fogg]

I've also always wondered if Miranda ever knew about some of the shadier things Cerberus got up to during her time with them, like the experiments in ME1 and the whole Grayson affair.

 

It is mentioned somewhere in the game, a book or a comic that Cerberus makes sure it's different cells/operations don't know about each other

[iM3GTR]

Idiocy?

[Prince Enigmatic]

Idiocy?

 

There's plenty of that to go around wherever Cerberus is related.

[Kenshen]

She knows about the husk and thorian creeper projects, and addresses that in dialogue with Shepard.  Was supposed to result in expendable shock troops.  Perhaps she wasn't aware of the full extent, namely that the subjects were just random colonists who did not volunteer.

 

Need to remember how Cerberus was setup with individual cells that were independent of each other.  Now she was a higher ranked officer so she knew more than most did but the way TIM controlled the organization was to very much limit information and who had access to it.  It doesn't surprise me that Miranda knew of husk and thorian creeper projects since she was going to be working with Shep.  No need for silly surprises like that if Shep pushed the subject.  Actually doesn't she even say in ME2 that there is a lot she doesn't know about Cerberus activities and is ok with that.