44 réponses à ce sujet

[Qun00]

Actually I think a lot of stuff isn't that carefully thought through by the writers. That figure I was quoting about clans in Orlais came from the novel. In it Celene suddenly realises that all these years Gaspard (and herself probably) have been worrying about the possibility of a potentially huge Dalish force ready to mobilise and the reality is vastly different. Which is why I say that there has been a bit of revisionism since DAO.

I worked out that having an Arlathaven with all clans in attendance would be a logistical nightmare, which is why I suggested that probably clans just send representatives and the rest stay in a safe location in their usual region awaiting their return.

I do get a bit tired of the excuse "oh the clans are just growing further apart as the years go on", to account for new variations in behaviour. The Arlathaven's are specifically there to allow them to keep a sense of common identity. I would imagine the clans that are no better than bandits, probably aren't that bothered about meeting up with the others and maintaining traditions but for those that are, then customs would be kept going down the years. Part of the Dalish's justification for the life they lead is that they are trying to keep traditions alive. The rule of 3 made sense if one clan was lacking an apprentice for their Keeper and another had more than they needed. According to WoT1 most mages come into their power at puberty, at time when young people might move around between clans anyway in order to diversify bloodlines a bit. The story about Minaeve was daft on two counts; first that they would dump any child in the Wilderness, much less a mage; second that she was not much good as a mage since apparently she was something of a precocious talent coming into her magic so young. However, if she didn't have much magical ability, she wouldn't be much of a threat. That whole story seemed to me to be there to stop people saying that the Dalish manage okay without Templars. Of course Merrill admitted that sometimes even Keepers become possessed (as Marethari does but deliberately) but that the clan then simply have to hunt their own Keeper. I would imagine that a swift arrow to the throat should do it. The Dalish are renowned for their assassins, so I should think they are more than capable of dealing with the average possessed Keeper. Of course Minaeve wasn't the only one with the story of being kicked out through too many mages; Dalish in the Chargers recounted something similar but she at least was older and for all we know, the Keeper asking her to leave might have been for other reasons. It is Bull who passes on the story again about having no more than 3 mages in a clan.

About the representatives part... that makes sense, but there is a problem. In Awakening, Velanna tells the Dalish Warden that she remembers seeing him in the last arlathvhen.

And yes, the fans do put a lot more thought into the lore and the story than the writers do. Not too long ago, I saw this guy asking Gaider on Twitter to explain how is it possible that the mabari dog was cured from the Taint back in DAO. He had no answer for that.

[In Exile]

About the representatives part... that makes sense, but there is a problem. In Awakening, Velanna tells the Dalish Warden that she remembers seeing him in the last arlathvhen.

And yes, the fans do put a lot more thought into the lore and the story than the writers do. Not too long ago, I saw this guy asking Gaider on Twitter to explain how is it possible that the mabari dog was cured from the Taint back in DAO. He had no answer for that.

 

The answer is pretty simple - in the tortured development history of DA:O, that just was an old quest that made it past the reviewers without anyone catching the change. Just like the magic anti-AD grey warden sword that got replaced by the DR or Loghain being mind controlled by the AD. 

[Eliastion]

 

I've always thought 10 years between every meeting was way waaay too long. 1 year sounds more reasonable.

 

 

^this.

 

1 year is anything but reasonable, really. We're talking elven nomads traveling through whole Thedas. With what knowledge of distances we have getting from Eastern Ferelden (Brecilen) to Dales it's unreasonable to assume travel time below 2-3 months. A small group of people traveling on horseback could probably cut the time a bit but that would still need to be well above a month of travel time. And that's CLOSE by standards of Thedas...

 

As for how many Dalish there are - if it was indeed "revealed" in the novel that there are only a handful of clans in Orlais (unless the source that revealed that was unreliable) then we should probably take their word for it. This would make Arlathvhen as stated (meetings of clans) less impossible but, on the other hand, the events of DA:Origins would cease making sense altogether. Basically, Dalish would be completely incapable of mustering fighting force of any relevance. Alienage elves would be much more useful, in fact, seeing how quite a few of them seem to own bows (legally or not) and be at least somewhat capable with them - and we're talking a population of a couple thousand (Alienage vovers a decent part of Denerim while being also terribly overcrowded compared to the rest of the city - around 3 thousands of inhabitants is a very low estimate) - that would be a solid base for considerable milita; plus motivation of "darkspawn are coming to kill us" could be a good motivation to risk their lives with weapon in hand instead of waiting for death...

 

All in all, however, I guess the one definite conclusion we can come up with is: creators of Dragon Age aren't too good with numbers when it comes to considering populations and consequences of them being of certain size.

[Vit246]

Okay maybe not 1 year, but TEN years? Yikes, thats practically a lifetime everytime they meet. A lot of terrible things can happen to clans in 10 years.

[Gervaise]

Ten years is probably reasonable if you consider the logistics of bringing all the clans together in one place; it does make it a big event and significant for all involved.   It is not really a life time for those involved; Dalish do live a lot longer than 10 years but if you go with my theory that not everyone from the clan attends every Arlathaven, then it might be a once in a life time event for most clan members.   That way it becomes a bit more like the pilgrimage to Mecca; which you are obliged to attend at least once in your lifetime.   Keepers, or their First if the Keeper isn't well enough to travel, would attend every Arlathaven, probably their Storyteller/lore keeper and then those young elves who had received their Vallaslin since the last one.     Young children would be left behind with the main clan, as would the older elves both to look after them and because they were finding long distance travel a bit wearisome.      This would explain Velanna seeing the Dalish Warden.   Both are probably around the same age and the last Arlathaven probably would have been their first after getting their Vallaslin.   All the newly come of age adults would be introduced at the Arlathaven, so people would remember them.   Alternatively if you think Velanna would be older than that, then she was attending in her capacity as Keeper's apprentice.

 

Numbers wise, I think the writers aren't very clear on this.    They speak of the Dalish clans being small bands in WoT1, often made up of only blood relatives.  However, of course, an extended family of blood relatives could actually be quite large.    Plus if you go with the origins of the Dalish being in the nobility of the Dales, then it is likely they are all distantly related in one way or another.   

 

So far as the recruits for the Wardens in DAO was concerned, the city elves might well have been a better bet numerically but they weren't covered in the Warden treaties and were locked up in the alienage, then suffered a sickness in their ranks (likely induced by the Tevinter slaver) and goodness knows how many were carted off to Tevinter before we stopped him, likely leaving the less able bodied behind.    Plus we weren't even given access to them until after Arl Eamon had called together the nobles in Denerim.   Which is why the Dalish, even if only modest numbers, was the option we were given.     Considering the two wardens had a total force to begin with of Morrigan, Leliana, Sten and the Dog, we could hardly afford to be picky.

[Eliastion]

(...)

So far as the recruits for the Wardens in DAO was concerned, the city elves might well have been a better bet numerically but they weren't covered in the Warden treaties and were locked up in the alienage, then suffered a sickness in their ranks (likely induced by the Tevinter slaver) and goodness knows how many were carted off to Tevinter before we stopped him, likely leaving the less able bodied behind.    Plus we weren't even given access to them until after Arl Eamon had called together the nobles in Denerim.   Which is why the Dalish, even if only modest numbers, was the option we were given.     Considering the two wardens had a total force to begin with of Morrigan, Leliana, Sten and the Dog, we could hardly afford to be picky.

But we were explicitly gathering an army, not a riding force. The Ostagar saw losses numbering in thousands and the battle for Denerim involved a city of 70 thousands inhabitants faced with certain doom. People tend to try to fight for their lives if given no option of survival otherwise. That almost certainly gives us tens of thousands of combatants in that engagement - most of them untrained, sure, but that's still a huge fighting force. Dalish and Dwarven contingents, to be as much as noticeable in this battle, would need to count high in the houndreds - the lowest estimate I can accept is around 500 trained warriors.

Now, let's think about the clans that actually were still in the area (instead of getting the hell out of the way of Archdemon long before) and got contacted. How many adults would they need to have to send a contingent of 500? Even if we assume that 40% adults went to war (that's quite unlikely since we're counting men and women and the elderly... and the clan doesn't cease to function; the number would probably be half of that) and that only 20% in each clan are children (also a really low estimate, that's comparable to US of today - actual nomadic clans like the Dalish would probably have twice as much children) that means that these 500 would be 32% of the whole population. That translates to the contacted clans numbering around 1500 people total. Taking slightly more realistic estimates (30% of adults going to fight, 30% of clan members being children) it brings expected total number of members of participating clans to above 2300 (closer to 2400, really). And that's still taking the REALLY modest estimate of Dalish contribution to the allied forces being around 500...

This really can't be sensibly reconciled with the idea of Dalish being just a handful of clans numbering on average 30 people each. DA:O, to make sense, just needs thousands of Dalish in Ferelden alone. There's also no real reason for Southern Orlais (mostly wilderness with little to no control by the state while also holding many signs of former glory of the elven Dales) to have a smaller population. So any canon information giving us a number that's an order (or two) of magnitude smaller is - in my opinion - an inconsistency.

[straykat]

I doubt it's anything like Qunari. The Dalish value freedom, even if they have jobs.

 

And they don't lose their minds if your Dalish hunter can somehow calm the Halla.. or if you were helping out with crafts, you can tell Tamlen that you preferred to hunt.

 

Hell, one of Marathari's statements in DA2 is kind of anti-Qunari. She says "Nothing is ever certain." Not that it's directly anti-Qunari, but it's a subtle nudge against that mindset. Same with Flemeth.

[Patchwork]

The story about Minaeve was daft on two counts; first that they would dump any child in the Wilderness, much less a mage; second that she was not much good as a mage since apparently she was something of a precocious talent coming into her magic so young.    However, if she didn't have much magical ability, she wouldn't be much of a threat.    That whole story seemed to me to be there to stop people saying that the Dalish manage okay without Templars.   Of course Merrill admitted that sometimes even Keepers become possessed (as Marethari does but deliberately) but that the clan then simply have to hunt their own Keeper.   I would imagine that a swift arrow to the throat should do it.   The Dalish are renowned for their assassins, so I should think they are more than capable of dealing with the average possessed Keeper.    Of course Minaeve wasn't the only one with the story of being kicked out through too many mages; Dalish in the Chargers recounted something similar but she at least was older and for all we know, the Keeper asking her to leave might have been for other reasons.   It is Bull who passes on the story again about having no more than 3 mages in a clan.  

 

I'm still hoping that the 3 mage rule is a rumour started by the Dalish in hopes of being seen as too minor of a problem for the templars to bother with. Whatever Minaeve's true story is she's still loyal enough to her former clan to play along.

 

A keeper, an heir and a spare makes sense from a leadership perspective but the Dalish casting extra mages out just doesn't fit with what we know about them. But if BW were trying to shoot down the "Dalish don't need no stinking templars!" argument then they put several bullets in their foot when they release JOH and had the Avvar mages not only co-existing with spirits but voluntarily being possessed by them.

 

But anyway I think the clans already in Orlais and the majority of the ones in Ferelden can make a once in 10 year trip to the Dales without too much of an issue. It's the ones further away that would likely only send representatives.

[Gervaise]

Where does the number of 70,000 inhabitants of Denerim come from?   That does seem a very large city.    The biggest alienage is meant to be in Val Royeaux and that was quoted at 10,000 elves.   Since a lot of servants are elves their numbers probably aren't that much less than those for human peasantry, then you have the merchants/middle classes and then the smallest group is the nobility.    So I think you'd be hard pressed to get Val Royeaux up to 70,000 inhabitants and that is meant to be far larger than Denerim.

 

I'm not arguing with your logic about the Dalish, based off events in DAO; all I'm saying is that both the information given in the source book World of Thedas 1 (which should be regarded as canon) and the information given in Masked Empire (less so) suggest only small clans of not more than 100 people each and at least so far as the Dales is concerned, probably not more than a dozen clans in the area at the most (which is stretching the term "handful" somewhat).    Like I say, the writers probably haven't really given much thought to actual numbers in the overall scheme of things.    I would mention that Masked Empire seemed to hint that the clan didn't have many children, at least not enough to hold their numbers at the present level, suggesting the Dalish there were dying off quicker than they could reproduce.  

[Gervaise]

Oh yes, I picked up on the Avaar being able to cope with mages okay.    It made the Dalish look right idiots that they would dump mage children because they could not cope with having more than 3 mages and yet the Avaar had absolutely no problem at all.     When Vivienne is telling the story about the Dalish prohibition, it is done specifically to counter your argument that the Dalish don't seem to need Templars and is connected to the conversation about the problems with mages becoming possessed.  So it was being implied that the Dalish were doing it not to avoid the attention of Templars but because they couldn't risk having too many mages in case they became possessed.    

 

I hope they retract that stupid bit of lore about the Dalish because it is clear it doesn't fit with their culture and traditions and if the Avaar have no problem with their mages, actually wanting their children to be possessed so the spirit can teach them, and the Rivani have no problem with their wise women, who again become deliberately possessed to gain wisdom, then why would the Dalish not be able to cope when they don't even encourage deliberate possession?

[In Exile]

I'm still hoping that the 3 mage rule is a rumour started by the Dalish in hopes of being seen as too minor of a problem for the templars to bother with. Whatever Minaeve's true story is she's still loyal enough to her former clan to play along.

A keeper, an heir and a spare makes sense from a leadership perspective but the Dalish casting extra mages out just doesn't fit with what we know about them. But if BW were trying to shoot down the "Dalish don't need no stinking templars!" argument then they put several bullets in their foot when they release JOH and had the Avvar mages not only co-existing with spirits but voluntarily being possessed by them.

But anyway I think the clans already in Orlais and the majority of the ones in Ferelden can make a once in 10 year trip to the Dales without too much of an issue. It's the ones further away that would likely only send representatives.

The Dalish trade their mages like property between their clans. The three mage number doesn't make sense per se depending on the way they treat their mage trainees, but treating them terribly and even abandoning them is totally consistent with the Dalish attitude to magic.

[theskymoves]

Where does the number of 70,000 inhabitants of Denerim come from? 

 

Page 349 of the DA:O Collector's Edition Prima guide.

 

[Reznore57]

I'd say most Dalish probably end up gathering food through hunting , fishing , picking berries , mushrooms etc and there's not a lot of other choices.

They can't have half the clan deciding they want to be craftman or study magic all day , the clan would die of starvation.

[Gervaise]

Interesting that they give these figures in the Prima guide and yet leave them out of their own source books.   Note though that the population of Redcliffe is meant to be just 200 and yet we go there to get an army from Arl Eamon.   Even if he can call on his various Banns to supply troops, that doesn't suggest any more promising a number than from the Dalish, certainly in the hundreds rather than the thousands.

 

In Exile: You have a different way of looking at things.      Why do you suggest that the Dalish trade their mages like property?    They don't sell their mage children to other clans; if anything you could say they are giving them something precious.   Besides which, they are not children.    The stories about Merrill and Minaeve being given away/abandoned as children is odd since World of Thedas says that mages generally come into their powers at puberty.   At such a time they probably would have to move around clans anyway to stop them becoming too in bred.   Arranged marriages are generally the norm in Thedas.   However, the Dalish seem to leave his up to personal choice.    Even so, offering a "spare" mage to another clan as a way of moving around bloodlines but also ensuring that their Keeper has an apprentice, seems practical rather than "treating them terribly".      The way I have always seen it is that it is not a case of here you go, thank goodness we've got rid of that one, but here is a precious member of our clan.   I'm pretty sure if the child/adolescent was unhappy about leaving, they wouldn't force them to go.

 

Regardless, the bottom line is that the Dalish regard those with magic as being closer to what they once were; that is why the Keeper has to be a mage.   It is an essential part of the lore that they teach.   So whether they are considered a treasured family member (as I think) or simply a valuable chattel (as you think) they would not simply discard them.     Put simply, the aim for the Dalish would be to have all their clan as mages because that is what they once were and they would have succeeded in getting back to their ancient state.   It is rather hard to achieve this if you dump every 4th mage that cannot be accommodated within the clan system.

[Qun00]

I still don't understand how Dalish warriors can be hunters. I've seen the argument that a sword and shield is useful when fighting off bears and other dangerous animals, but your actual prey is the kind that would flee. And for that, you need a long range weapon.

Then one might say "Well, I'm sure that Dalish warriors can use bows too". But wouldn't they be less skilled with it than the hunters who focus solely on archery?

[Patchwork]

I still don't understand how Dalish warriors can be hunters. I've seen the argument that a sword and shield is useful when fighting off bears and other dangerous animals, but your actual prey is the kind that would flee. And for that, you need a long range weapon.

Then one might say "Well, I'm sure that Dalish warriors can use bows too". But wouldn't they be less skilled with it than the hunters who focus solely on archery?

 

Gameplay classes aside I think it would make the sense for the Dalish to be trained and use whatever weapon most suits the situation, even the mages. Archery gets a major focus because it's the most useful for hunting but few Dalish elves have the luxury to dedicate themselves to a one single weapon type.  

 

A clan doesn't feed, clothe or protect itself. 

[Gervaise]

Which is why we never had this problem with DAO.   There it was the case that whatever class you were, you were able to use both melee and ranged weapons.    Gameplay aside, naturally the Dalish would be more versatile and not restrict themselves to one single weapon type.   Also every member of the clan would be able to defend themselves after a fashion and would be trained from an early age.   All would be able to forage and hunt for smaller prey but the specialist hunters would be the ones who could take down a deer or other large prey with a single shot from their bow.

[Qun00]

That's my point. Specialist hunters are better hunters.

[LobselVith8]

The Dalish trade their mages like property between their clans. The three mage number doesn't make sense per se depending on the way they treat their mage trainees, but treating them terribly and even abandoning them is totally consistent with the Dalish attitude to magic.

 

It isn't consistent with their attitude towards magic. Merrill comments, "Any child with the gift of magic is apprenticed to a Keeper... in another clan if there's no need in her own." She elaborates, "Magic is a gift of the Creators. Why wouldn't we use it? It just seems... wasteful for humans to lock their mages away where they can't do any good."

 

The reason that mages move between clans is because, prior to Inquisition's inconsistent 'three mage' recton (that also flies in the face of Zathrian's clan having more than three mages), magic was "dying out" among the Dalish clans: 'As each generation passes, magic becomes more rare among the Dalish. As the gift dies out, talented children are moved between clans so that every Keeper has a successor, and no clan is in danger of being left without guidance.'

[Medhia_Nox]

Well - you need one to teach hate, one to fabricate history, one to be outraged, one to be suspicious, one to torture humans because reasons.

 

Other than that - it's like the rest live average, decent lives.

 

@Qun00:  They're nomadic... if game is scarce then a specialist hunter is useless. 

 

Steppe people's learned how to ride horses and shoot bows with ridiculous accuracy... and they could hunt and use swords.

 

Native Americans did not have armies... their hunters went to war against other tribes during wartime... and in peace time, they hunted along with their other tasks. 

 

Specializing is a modern trait and is absolutely horrendous and makes most people utterly useless in any real capacity. 

 

Tribals were usually "Renaissance" men in that they learned to be versatile.