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[trip12481]

I've been relaying Inquisition and had a thought...

The prevailing opinion was that Cory and crew were lied to...that they were promised the "power of the gods" and they didn't get it. (Puts tin foil hat on) I say they that did.

Solas tells us that the elven gods weren't gods that they weren't even truly immortal.

We also know that solas is surprised that Corypheus knows the secret to "effective immortality"

If the elven gods weren't particularly special, aside from their presumably powerful magic and I'd guess effective immortality, then how does Cory not have the "power of the gods" once he returns from his jaunt in the fade. Though I suppose it should read power of the "gods"

That's my theory...please discuss

[Secret Rare]

Just because he can spread from others corrupted bodies this does not mean that he is a god.
I think that Corypheus failed badly in his last tour into the golden city, since aside from this ability that costed to him an entire human body he did not gained anything.
Elven gods were special if you chek their history each of them had unique form of powers and magic.

[trip12481]

Well I didn't say he was a god.  He was promised the power of the gods not godhood, maybe its semantics maybe not. 

 

As far as the body, as Flemeth put it "bodies are such limiting things" and I would say he gained the body hopping "effective immortality" which certainly isn't nothing

 

I agree that they were powerful mages and great leaders of their times but they weren't gods

[Al Foley]

Well the way I interpreted Cory's original jaunt to the Fade is it was essentially a fishing expedition.  They were looking for, not only power, but proof of their god's existance considering that at the time Tevinter religion was waning.  And Cory, being a High Priest of Dumat...and the others all representing the various Old Gods, decided to breach the Fade in one last attempt to restore the faith and bring back definitive proof they weren't just chasing shadows.  Cory saw that the city was black, there was no god, so then when he woke up in the Dragon Age he then decided to go back to the Fade to try and achieve the power of god hood. 

[Gervaise]

It has never been clear exactly why the ancient Magisters went to the city; to search for their gods; to challenge the Maker or to achieve immortality.   The fact that one of the reasons is immortality would suggest that it was a case of "You should be careful what you wish for in case it comes true."    They did in fact achieve the immortality they craved but not necessarily in the way they had envisaged.    If they were searching for an answer as to why the gods were silent; they received the answer that the heavens are empty - no god sits on the throne.     The only reason that doesn't really make sense is challenging the Maker since they had forgotten he even existed and had been worshipping the old gods for ages.  

 

The Canticle of Silence claims that his first foray to the City was in search of godhood but it also claims that Dumat spoke to him.   However, it is clear from the memories in the Nightmares realm that Cory was increasingly desperate because his god wasn't responding to him, which is why he decided to go to the City to find out why.   This seems confirmed by what we discover in JoH when the priests of Razikale are equally confused why their god no longer answers them, although the timescale for this is not clear.    Everything in the Chant is propaganda, the Canticle of Silence doubly so, so I wouldn't necessarily accept anything it says about their motivations. 

 

However, when he returned from his imprisonment, Corypheus is now challenging belief in the Maker because he now knows what the Chantry teaches and that so far as he recalls the matter, that is not what happened.   The Maker didn't quit it as they arrived; he was already gone.    They didn't hear a strident voice declaring their sin; only whispers.   This is why he taunts you with belief in a Maker that cannot aid you and finally cries out to the god Dumat who failed him.   He was a priest of Dumat but his god never answered his prayers; his throne was empty and now he failed to save Corypheus from the Inquisitor.

[In Exile]

I've been relaying Inquisition and had a thought...

The prevailing opinion was that Cory and crew were lied to...that they were promised the "power of the gods" and they didn't get it. (Puts tin foil hat on) I say they that did.

Solas tells us that the elven gods weren't gods that they weren't even truly immortal.

We also know that solas is surprised that Corypheus knows the secret to "effective immortality"

If the elven gods weren't particularly special, aside from their presumably powerful magic and I'd guess effective immortality, then how does Cory not have the "power of the gods" once he returns from his jaunt in the fade. Though I suppose it should read power of the "gods"

That's my theory...please discuss

 

Elves were never immortal in the sense they couldn't die, but they were ageless, and the Evanuris had means (whether by magic or their nature) to survive the death of their body. 

 

Corypheus is something else, because the Blight sustains him. 

 

Whatever the elves were, Corypheus is something else. 

[Donquijote and 59 others]

 They didn't hear a strident voice declaring their sin; only whispers.   

Well that's because they were unable to hear their voices properly,they heard whispers because they were not able to hear the voices of the gods,is a similar situation to the Inquisitor with the well of sorrow!

That's why the gods failed badly,the Evanruis tried to use them to free themselves however stupid magisters were not able to hear them properly 

[Secret Rare]

Elves were never immortal in the sense they couldn't die, but they were ageless, and the Evanuris had means (whether by magic or their nature) to survive the death of their body. 

 

Corypheus is something else, because the Blight sustains him. 

 

 

The Evanuris were ageless and had means to cheat death,it seems to me that they were pretty immortal........

[Gervaise]

The strident voice I was referring to was the voice of the Maker in the Chant of Light: But when they took a single step towards the empty throne, a great voice cried out shaking the foundations of heaven and earth "And so the Golden City is blackened with each step you take in my Hall.   Marvel at perfection for it is fleeting.   You have brought Sin to Heaven and doom upon all the world.'"

 

This account confirms that of Corypheus, that the Maker (if he ever was there) had already vacated his throne but not the whispers.     There is an alternative version of what he says to them in the Canticle of Silence, written by Hessarian, which is actually an earlier written version than the one used by the Chant, but probably neither of them is actually an accurate account of events but a poetic idea of how it might have been.

 

At the very end before you sent him to the Fade, Cory actually admits that he "walked the Golden halls", so he seems to have remembered something previously forgotten (or the writers forgot he was meant to have claimed it was already black when he got there)

 

Mind you the Chant also claims that they were violently cast down and part of the reason for the twisting and mutilation of their bodies is that  "no mortal may walk bodily in the world of dreams"; that was an integral part of their "sin",  which is of course utterly contradicted by the events of DAI when the Inquisitor and their party all walk bodily in the world of dreams with no ill effects; Kieran, Morrigan and the Inquisitor enter the Fade a second time, again with no ill effects, and then later we discover in Trespasser that crossing to and fro from the waking world to the world of dreams was common place before Solas raised the Veil.

[In Exile]

The Evanuris were ageless and had means to cheat death,it seems to me that they were pretty immortal........

We never saw one cheat death. We have no idea how much of Mythal survived. It may not even be a really conscious part of her.

[Mistic]

The Canticle of Silence claims that his first foray to the City was in search of godhood but it also claims that Dumat spoke to him.   However, it is clear from the memories in the Nightmares realm that Cory was increasingly desperate because his god wasn't responding to him, which is why he decided to go to the City to find out why.   This seems confirmed by what we discover in JoH when the priests of Razikale are equally confused why their god no longer answers them, although the timescale for this is not clear.  

 

I think you are mixing two different texts from the Nightmare's realm.

 

In one, Corypheus is said to be concerned, but not because his god wasn't talking to him, but because the temples of the Old Gods are losing followers. In fact, he mentions "the will of Dumat" and his slave says that he only listens to "the voices in his dreams", so there's nothing to suggest Dumat was silent.In the other one, indeed, the gods are said to be silent, but the note makes it clear that it's happening during the First Blight.

 

So far, no evidence we have says anything about he gods being silent before the First Blight. After it, however, it seems they were.

[Secret Rare]

"no mortal may walk bodily in the world of dreams"; that was an integral part of their "sin", which is of course utterly contradicted by the events of DAI when the Inquisitor and their party all walk bodily in the world of dreams with no ill effects; Kieran, Morrigan and the Inquisitor enter the Fade a second time, again with no ill effects, and then later we discover in Trespasser that crossing to and fro from the waking world to the world of dreams was common place before Solas raised the Veil.

It is not contradicted in any of these two events
If the Inquisitor is able to go in the fade and return with no consequences is because there is the protection of the " gods" the power of Fen harel in this case,In the other one the gods were two.

[Secret Rare]

We never saw one cheat death. We have no idea how much of Mythal survived. It may not even be a really conscious part of her.

Yes Flemeth who did it against the warden.
Point is that unless you find a way to crush their spirit they don't die.

[AresKeith]

The Evanuris were ageless and had means to cheat death,it seems to me that they were pretty immortal........

 

So did Corypheus and look what happened to him 

[Gervaise]

So the power of the anchor trumps the power of the Maker?   The power of Flemeth trumps the power of the Maker?    Why is it that there was previously passage between the two realms with no objection from the Maker?     The point is that the voice in the Chant claims that it is against the law of the Maker when mortals attempt to walk bodily in his realm, the realm of dreams.  They have trespassed where they were never meant to go and that is why it affects them so badly.  It is almost as though it happens automatically because they shouldn't be there.   It is a bit like taking a portal to the moon without a space suit to protect you - when you end up there you die because you aren't meant to be there and your body is not adapted to the conditions.

 

Even if the Maker has no interest in what passes in the material world, even if he no longer cares what happens in the Fade, before the attempt by the Magisters we are told he did occupy his realm, yet we have the elves passing backwards and forwards from the Fade.  This could be explained by the fact that the elves were originally spirits, although according to the Chant they are not meant to travel to the material world any more than mortals are meant to travel to the Fade.   

 

Solas altered the nature of reality, a reality that the Maker was said to have created and he did nothing.  Yet the Magisters simply open a portal and suddenly it is the greatest sin ever.   I'm sorry but it just doesn't add up.

[trip12481]

Yes Flemeth who did it against the warden.
Point is that unless you find a way to crush their spirit they don't die.

If this is the case then why is Flemythal so upset...obviously her spirit wasn't crushed and I'd guess this wasn't the first time she "died" but for some reason it was the last regardless of the "crushing" of spirit

[trip12481]

So the power of the anchor trumps the power of the Maker? The power of Flemeth trumps the power of the Maker? Why is it that there was previously passage between the two realms with no objection from the Maker? The point is that the voice in the Chant claims that it is against the law of the Maker when mortals attempt to walk bodily in his realm, the realm of dreams. They have trespassed where they were never meant to go and that is why it affects them so badly. It is almost as though it happens automatically because they shouldn't be there. It is a bit like taking a portal to the moon without a space suit to protect you - when you end up there you die because you aren't meant to be there and your body is not adapted to the conditions.

Even if the Maker has no interest in what passes in the material world, even if he no longer cares what happens in the Fade, before the attempt by the Magisters we are told he did occupy his realm, yet we have the elves passing backwards and forwards from the Fade. This could be explained by the fact that the elves were originally spirits, although according to the Chant they are not meant to travel to the material world any more than mortals are meant to travel to the Fade.

Solas altered the nature of reality, a reality that the Maker was said to have created and he did nothing. Yet the Magisters simply open a portal and suddenly it is the greatest sin ever. I'm sorry but it just doesn't add up.

Sure it does...there is no maker as the chantry understands it. Though there is something...nightmare's realm is closer to the black city then solas had ever been before and Cole's cryptic comment about how he still remembered when they were higher

[Secret Rare]

So did Corypheus and look what happened to him

And you wish to compare an Evanuris to Corypheus? OK!
First Cory was killed because he lost his immortality you did not killed him when he was immortal second he his nothing compared to an elven god.
So far the only one who was able to damge an Evanuris were others Evanuris not a mere mortal like the Inquisitor at best he can only punch one of them.

[In Exile]

Yes Flemeth who did it against the warden.
Point is that unless you find a way to crush their spirit they don't die.

 

Flemeth copied herself while alive. The Warden killed Flemeth. She just had a back-up. That's not the same thing as not being killable. 

[Secret Rare]

If this is the case then why is Flemythal so upset...obviously her spirit wasn't crushed and I'd guess this wasn't the first time she "died" but for some reason it was the last regardless of the "crushing" of spirit

Because the Evanuris destroyed a part of her soul,this is way she was upset.

 

Flemeth copied herself while alive. The Warden killed Flemeth. She just had a back-up. That's not the same thing as not being killable. 

Then we just disagree on the definition of being not killable

As long as her soul is safe she can't die that's why it is called godhood.

Point is that Flemeth has foresight she predicted the arrival of the warden just as she predicted that Hawke would have succeeded in revive her

(she could have just as easly evaded the warden),her immortality was not random and she is not even like  Mythal at her fullness.

We don't know how a true Evanuris can die because so far only one of them was "killed" and for what we know it happened through a betrayal that involved the other Evanuris and probably by unknown magical means,Abelas don't know if an elven  god can truly be killed

[Gervaise]

Solas also says that the reason he locked them away was because he couldn't be sure he could kill them.    If you follow the story put on the wall by the Auger in Jaws of Hakkon, you can easily see how a "god" can survive because their spirit returns to the Fade to await a new vessel they can occupy.   They retain their identity, unlike Solas' friend, probably because  they were a fully developed personality before death and have worshipers who remember them and keep on praying to them.  In a way it is servants like Abelas that ensure the survival of their god.

[In Exile]

 

As long as her soul is safe she can't die that's why it is called godhood.

Point is that Flemeth has foresight she predicted the arrival of the warden just as she predicted that Hawke would have succeeded in revive her

(she could have just as easly evaded the warden),her immortality was not random and she is not even like  Mythal at her fullness.

We don't know how a true Evanuris can die because so far only one of them was "killed" and for what we know it happened through a betrayal that involved the other Evanuris and probably by unknown magical means,Abelas don't know if an elven  god can truly be killed

 

 

Whatever the Evanuris did was very different than what the Warden did, which was kill a body. Which, again, died the normal way by being stabbed repeatedly in the face. Flemeth doesn't need a special method to be killed - you just have to catch her before her last CTRL+S moment. What's hinted at about the Evanuris - the true Evanuris - is that there was something different about their survival. 

[Obadiah]

The Taint, Blight, and Darkspawn all appear to be twisted and corrupted versions of other things in the "real" world. It is very likely that Corypheus' version of immortality is a twisted version of the immortality we see Mythal use, a spirit/soul/aspect moving from host to host, and sustaining them well past a normal lifetime.

[trip12481]

The Taint, Blight, and Darkspawn all appear to be twisted and corrupted versions of other things in the "real" world. It is very likely that Corypheus' version of immortality is a twisted version of the immortality we see Mythal use, a spirit/soul/aspect moving from host to host, and sustaining them well past a normal lifetime.

I like this

So now I guess all this begs the questions of who offered the power and why...and did they know it was corrupt or was that an accident

[Statare]

Whatever the Evanuris did was very different than what the Warden did, which was kill a body. Which, again, died the normal way by being stabbed repeatedly in the face. Flemeth doesn't need a special method to be killed - you just have to catch her before her last CTRL+S moment. What's hinted at about the Evanuris - the true Evanuris - is that there was something different about their survival. 

True. Flemeth says she (Mythal) was betrayed as the world was betrayed. Assuming the betrayal of the world was the sundering of Physical with Spiritual by the Veil, then that is probably what happened with Mythal. She was Sundered. Her Spiritual Essence was probably completely severed from her Body, and there was probably something more to it, like draining of her power by the Evanuris (we see Solas drain somesort of energy from Mythal, so it is possible they did that to her to the extreme). As to whether what Mythal does is similar to Cory...

 

I think with what we know about Cole, the hints in Tresspasser that Elves and Spirits are connected, and the Pre-Veil world, it is highly likely that what Flemeth did in DA2 was a controlled version of what Cole the Spirit did. Cole the Spirit reached out to Dying Cole, copied his memories, and even forgot that it was a Spirit in the first place because it thought it was Cole. It is likely, that Mythal used the amulet to store a framework in, that Hawke's memories of Flemeth, Merrill's invocation of Mythal, the presence of daughters of Flemeth who remembered her, and a whole cult still in service of her Well, allowed for a more complete Spiritual Mythal to reappear on Sundermount. So in a way, what Flemeth did is what we have seen Spirits and Demons do throughout the series, come when they are called, and since death does not mean the same thing to a spiritual thing, it likely did not mean the same thing to the more Fade connected Evanuris and possibly even the Elves (possibly, there is a lot still unclear about it all).

 

As to whether Cory did tapped into this power, I doubt it. What Cory did is completely different. He took over a body. There was no ritual. No amulet. Just the Taint, which is implied by Avernus to be an infinite source of power separate from the Fade. Now the Evanuris might be related to the creation of the Taint, but as of yet there is very little evidence for this, but it seems the Evanuris' immortality had more to do with the immortal nature of the Fade and the transmission of thoughts and ideas than the Taint's persistence of form and corruption of the physical.