56 réponses à ce sujet

[Iralux]

I figure that logically the genophage is good, yet morally it is bad. I'm not sure if this has been talked about before (couldn't find anything through searching), so I figured I'd bring it up.

 

Some basic facts as I understand them first:

• An average krogan female without the genophage can give birth to, on average, 1,000 children in a year.
• The genophage results in an average of 99.9% of stillbirths per year (1 krogan every 999 stillbirths, thus 1 krogan a year)
• The environment of Tuchanka helped keep the krogan population in check pre-industrialization
• Technology allowed krogan populations to sky rocket, as Tuchanka's environmental threat level was rendered negligible
• The rachni wars began in 1 CE, ended around 300 CE, and the krogan were 'uplifted' about a century into the wars (~100 CE)
• Between the time the krogan were uplifted and the rachni wars ended, at least two krogan generations have passed (~100 years per generation)
• In 300 years, the krogan population outgrew Tuchanka, the rachni worlds, and various other planets

 

 

It seems a lot like the krogan will end up going back to war with the council races eventually. Either they'll attack the council races because they need more resources, or they'll grow large enough that they will attack the council races just because they can. After all, it's highly unlikely that krogans like Wrex/Bakara will always be leaders. There is a chance that the krogan will implement population controls like the other races seem to do, but there will still be krogan who settle elsewhere like the Terminus systems and can safely ignore a krogan 'government'.

 

At the same time, the genophage has had horrific consequences among the krogan population. I don't think I need to detail just why it's bad morally.

 

 

(If anybody is interested, I made a Lua program that will simulate the krogan population without the genophage, for an idea on how fast the krogan population will grow.)

 

Spoiler

This simulation works under the assumption that every krogan dies at 1000, the initial krogan population is 100 thousand, the fertility range is between 100 and 300 years old, 4% of fertile female krogans are pregnant at any given time, and one pregnant krogan female gives birth to 1000 krogan in a year. You can view it here. It's not a perfect population simulation, but I think it gives a decent idea of how fast the krogan population would grow.

 

After 50 years, the population will reach 11 million. After 110 years, the population will be 318 million. 150 years = 6.3 billion. 200 years = 22.2 billion. 300 years = 16 Trillion. 400 years = 8.6 Quadrillion. 500 years = 3.7 Quintillion.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

Due to the unrealistic Krogan population growth, I never cure the genophage. I'm sorry but given the circumstances it was the right call by the Salarians.

 

The other choice the Council Races had was to nuke the Krogan worlds back to the Stone Age. Nuking garden worlds from orbit, however, was considered a war crime.

 

The situation was desperate. As a pragmatist I don't have an issue with the genophage. It was better than the alternatives.

[StarcloudSWG]

Tuchanka's environment threat level was not mitigated much by technology. What caused the krogan population to skyrocket was when krogan were given colony rights on worlds that were not as hostile as Tuchanka.

 

Is the genophage wrong? Yes and no. Fifteen hundred years of minimal population growth has made a change in the Krogan psyche and culture. If Eve and Wrex are alive, they lead the krogan to be careful about their population growth. Every child is valued.

 

The old krogan mindset and swarm tactics of throwing wave after wave of bodies at enemies is unlikely to re-emerge for a long while. In addition, if Wrex is alive, Eve is deliberately getting him to sire a lot of children. She's doing this for a reason; Wrex *is* a mutant, in krogan terms. He thinks. He considers. He plans. And he's not governed by the blood rage. His children won't be, either.

 

If Wreav is the one alive, it's a different story. Wreav would lead the krogan on rampages. Curing the genophage with Wreav in charge is the wrong thing to do, and it's the one way to save Mordin from dying. With Eve dead and Wreav alive, Mordin can be persuaded to not cure the genophage.

[Iralux]

@StarcloudSWG

It actually says in the wikia that:

 

"However, the krogan birth rate exploded despite the natural limits of their predatory homeworld once they achieved industrialization. Technology made life "too easy" for them, so when they looked for new challenges they found those in each other."

 

So originally, Tuchanka's environment was harsh enough to stabilize the population. Technology mitigated this, and the population grew much faster. Then they ended up bombing their planet into a nuclear winter, which made the environment EXTREMELY inhospitable, and the population was dwindling.

 

Then came the Salarians, giving them new planets and the Shroud to manage Tuchanaka's environment. This is when the population skyrocketed out of control.

 

 

Eve and Wrex will only live so long however. Furthermore, Wrex isn't unique compared to other male krogan because of his DNA, but because of his experiences growing up. The children of Wrex and Eve won't necessarily be just like them. The best chance for krogan survival would probably be a matriarchal society, assuming most of the female krogan are like Eve.

 

(Furthermore, Wrex is still capable of blood rage. Blood rage, as I understand it, is a trait used in battle to ignore pain and what not. It doesn't make the Krogan angry faster or anything)

 

Also, not every krogan is going to be unified. Just look at all the races in the Terminus Systems who operated outside the control of their government. There will still be krogan who live outside the system and have no restrictions on how fast they reproduce. Unless there is a kill-on-sight order declared for any krogan in the Terminus Systems, no amount of leadership will make a difference.

[ArcadiaGrey]

(If anybody is interested, I made a Lua program that will simulate the krogan population without the genophage, for an idea on how fast the krogan population will grow.)

 

Spoiler

This simulation works under the assumption that every krogan dies at 1000, the initial krogan population is 100 thousand, the fertility range is between 100 and 300 years old, 4% of fertile female krogans are pregnant at any given time, and one pregnant krogan female gives birth to 1000 krogan in a year. You can view it here. It's not a perfect population simulation, but I think it gives a decent idea of how fast the krogan population would grow.

 

After 50 years, the population will reach 11 million. After 110 years, the population will be 318 million. 150 years = 6.3 billion. 200 years = 22.2 billion. 300 years = 16 Trillion. 400 years = 8.6 Quadrillion. 500 years = 3.7 Quintillion.

 

And that right there is why it's idiotic to cure the genophage.  In my opinion. 

 

Two of my Sheps cure it, but my canon and I myself would never do it.  Sadly it's a necessary evil, if you cure it a Krogan horde will rampage through the galaxy using up garden worlds, they may even make it to Earth one day. 

Sadly Wrex and Eve are rare amongst the Krogan, curing the genophage based on their goals is naive.  They're mortal and can easily die, and if they do you're left with regular Krogan who want revenge.

 

I just wish all of this was better explained to players in ME3 so that it could have become far more of a difficult moral decision, instead of most newbies assuming the cure is a good thing and the genophage was 'mean'.

[ArcadiaGrey]

Due to the unrealistic Krogan population growth, I never cure the genophage. I'm sorry but given the circumstances it was the right call by the Salarians.

 

The other choice the Council Races had was to nuke the Krogan worlds back to the Stone Age. Nuking garden worlds from orbit, however, was considered a war crime.

 

The situation was desperate. As a pragmatist I don't have an issue with the genophage. It was better than the alternatives.

 

Your opinion echos mine exactly, it's a terrible shame for the Krogan women, but a sad necessity and better than genocide.

[UpUpAway]

It's a moral dilemma - no clear way for it to be universally "right" or "wrong."  Mordin - "Too many variables, too many..."  The question is designed, IMO, to mirror population issues here on Earth, just using an exaggerated scale.  The question remains, the answer is... a matter of opinion.  Fortunately, within the confines of a game, it doesn't really matter.

[RakhanaBby]

Almost everyone here pretty much agrees that there is no right or wrong about the genophage or curing it.

What DOES matter is krogan babies. That's it. Do it for a picture of Bakara holding a wrapped-up baby krogan and handing it to Wrex because BABIES.

That's it.

[Cainhurst Crow]

I find the entire concept of krogan birth to be completely baffling. So a krogan female can have 1000 children in 1 year. My question to the developers and writers of mass effect is this: How?

 

Like, let me phrase it in simple terms. Rabbits **** like crazy and have tons of litters all the time, right? That's where the expression "**** like Rabbits" come from, cause they're constantly having sex and constantly reproducing, and no wonder when you're basically all of natures prey animal huh? Kinda like the krogan on tuchunka per-industrialization, right? Makes sense as well when you consider that krogan have eyes on the side of their heads, which indicates that the krogan were a prey-species and not a predator species on their homeworld.

 

Going back to rabbits, you'd figure rabbits must breed faster then krogan, after all they're a fraction of the size and live a fraction of the age.Everything in nature incentives rabbits to breed super crazy fast, and you need to get into insects and egg laying creatures to get the rates of birth higher then rabbits. Rabbits per litter have about 1 to 14 babies a litter, accounting for deformations or complications. Rabbit gestation lasts 28-31 days, and because they are induced ovulators, mother rabbits can be impregnated again within minutes of giving birth.

 

So, you basically have 1 pregnancy a month, and assuming each litter produces 14 healthy babies, you have 168 rabbits a year per 1 female. Even cranking that number up to 50 kids a litter, it's not enough to cover how fast krogan populate. Krogan would need to give birth to 83.3 baby krogan A MONTH, and do nothing else but get pregnant and give birth for a whole year, in order to reach the numbers talked about in the lore.

 

That's beyond ridiculous, especially when you consider that a rabbits lifespan is 9 years total, and the krogan live for hundreds. In my opinion, something doesn't add up to this equation. If there were only, like, 100,000 krogan before, and only like 5% of the whole population is female, that's still 5,000 females, all getting pregnant and giving birth to 5,000,000 children in 1 year. 5% of that population would be 250,000, and that would make a population of 250,000,000 by the end of that year. At least, I'm assuming krogan children develop at a super accelerated rate. Why else would it only take a month from conception to birth a fully formed live krogan baby, let alone 83 of them.

 

The krogan have the breeding of an animal and race that lives a fraction of the lifespan and is at least a 4th of the side. In other words, Vorcha. They breed in numbers more accurate to the Vorcha then to a long lived species whose lifespan can reach 1000 years. It would make more sense if there was a periodic period of breeding and non-breeding for a the krogan to ever develop any sort of logic, where once every 100 to 200 years krogan females enter a year-long mating season and have a crazy big litter, and then a long strech of no-mating occurs. Hell, that's how every large population creatures do their breeding on this world, say for most mammals.

 

Given the massive numbers we see presented in the lore, and no explination to assure us that krogan don't biologically develop at a super accelerated rate and aren't ready to reproduce by age 3, the Genophage is probably the best solution. Why it was selected to work by essentially late-term aborting 83 babies in the womb simultaneously, and not just make it hard for the sperm to fertilize the eggs, I don't know. Probably so that we'd have some lovely imagery to all that genocide going on.

 

All I can think of is the cleanup. What happens to the 999 baby corpses per female per year? In my opinion the salarians and turians should run the krogan organic waste treatment plants. They literally engineered this mess to happen, it's only fair they literally clean up the after math.

[KrrKs]

What happens to the 999 baby corpses per female per year?

There are no corpses (in that sense). Krogans lay eggs.

(At least this is what seemed to be intended prior to ME3; I still see Eve's tale about her 'stillborn' as more of an hyperbole or poor translation.)

 

According to the wiki, the chance of a female being 'born' is rather slim -but I don't know where that supposed EDI statement comes from.

If true, this limits the population grow somewhat.

 

I believe ShotgunJulia once stated in another thread, that Krogans shouldn't care about individuals (below a certain age), due to the number of offspring and lives lost to the (pre-industrial) harsh environment. The old Krogan horde -battle-tactics match that assessment perfectly. As does their initiation rite: To match the younglings against the most dangerous animals in the area.

 

As for the genophage: I actually agree with Mordin both times.

 Pre ME3, the Krogans population growth needs to be limited to allow a stable population size.

The Reaper arrival does change that imo. For all everyone knows, the fight against the reapers could take centuries or longer. Krogans are some of the fiercest (ground) fighters in the galaxy. (This is ME: Where ground forces trump space forces, somehow.) Not only the Turians, but basically everyone needs Krogan ground support. Which means they will be dying by the thousands on battlefields everywhere in the galaxy. ("Ask any Krogan if he wants to fight, or help his people. You will always here the same: He will fight!" -paraphrased quote from Wrex, ME1)

Which in return means that the species will die out in a few years or decades, if the fertility rate is not increased to cancel out the increased death toll, again.

 

>Besides; I'd rather get headbutted back into stoneage, than become a zombie-husk or part of a reaper-smoothie.

[Cainhurst Crow]

If they were just seasonal reproducers, they could have a stable population without the need of the genophage but alas, they aren't. I'm still baffled why wrex said corpses and not eggs when he talks about the genophage. Though I guess someone on the ME team decided quick retcon was in order.

[Xen]

It's absolutely the right call given the patently absurd birthrate numbers Biower provided for us leading to inevitable galactic Malthusian catastrophe (or war and another genophage, or worse). They're large, extremely resilient apex predators with seemingly endless lifespans (Patriarch is a Rachni War vet, which means he's over 2000 years old) that through some sort of energy conservation defying magic breed in an r-selected fashion like insects.

There are a few instances where we are told that their natural infant mortality rates before technology changed them were extremly high even without the genophage, which means that the krogan crying about dead babies (erm, unhatched eggs?) makes no sense from a cultural perspective anyway unless they think it's somehow morally wrong that they're being prevented from eventually consuming every Levo amino acid based biosphere in the galaxy at the expense of everyone but maybe the turians and quarians, who just for their own sakes probably don't want a galaxy full of quadrillions of naturally violent predators anyway, even if they aren't at as much risk of competition for resources.

[KaiserShep]

Well, it was either that, or simply eradicate them, which would probably have been much simpler. They didn't really leave anyone with a whole lot of options. 

[DebatableBubble]

I love how everyone on here is either a brilliant military strategist, a mad scientist, or a terrorist.

[aoibhealfae]

Genophage cure isn't a cure. Its a mutagen that affect their immune system to support ongoing pregnancy. They get less healthy, they have reduced lifespan. 

 

And my god, to be a women who would spend a thousand years just getting pregnant.... *chills*

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

Genophage cure isn't a cure. Its a mutagen that affect their immune system to support ongoing pregnancy. They get less healthy, they have reduced lifespan. 

 

And my god, to be a women who would spend a thousand years just getting pregnant.... *chills*

 

A Krogan female will lay a clutch of 1000 eggs per year. 

 

When a male Krogan is present and mates with the female, the female will store the deposited sperm in a small internal pouch. As the newly forming egg passes by, it will be fertilized by this deposit of sperm. The female then digs a hole in the ground lays the eggs, and buries the eggs. After a while the eggs hatch and the hatchlings dig their way to the surface much like the way the dinosaurs did. 

 

These details weren't discussed much. I extrapolated this from birds and reptiles. We could assume that the female Krogan would only lay the clutch of eggs after she had mated. I can only imagine what it would be like to lay 1000 eggs in one sitting. 

[wright1978]

There are no corpses (in that sense). Krogans lay eggs.

(At least this is what seemed to be intended prior to ME3; I still see Eve's tale about her 'stillborn' as more of an hyperbole or poor translation.)

 

According to the wiki, the chance of a female being 'born' is rather slim -but I don't know where that supposed EDI statement comes from.

If true, this limits the population grow somewhat.

 

I believe ShotgunJulia once stated in another thread, that Krogans shouldn't care about individuals (below a certain age), due to the number of offspring and lives lost to the (pre-industrial) harsh environment. The old Krogan horde -battle-tactics match that assessment perfectly. As does their initiation rite: To match the younglings against the most dangerous animals in the area.

 

As for the genophage: I actually agree with Mordin both times.

 Pre ME3, the Krogans population growth needs to be limited to allow a stable population size.

The Reaper arrival does change that imo. For all everyone knows, the fight against the reapers could take centuries or longer. Krogans are some of the fiercest (ground) fighters in the galaxy. (This is ME: Where ground forces trump space forces, somehow.) Not only the Turians, but basically everyone needs Krogan ground support. Which means they will be dying by the thousands on battlefields everywhere in the galaxy. ("Ask any Krogan if he wants to fight, or help his people. You will always here the same: He will fight!" -paraphrased quote from Wrex, ME1)

Which in return means that the species will die out in a few years or decades, if the fertility rate is not increased to cancel out the increased death toll, again.

 

>Besides; I'd rather get headbutted back into stoneage, than become a zombie-husk or part of a reaper-smoothie.

 

That's basically how i saw it.

[iM3GTR]

Genophage cure isn't a cure.

"It's a weapon. And if it leaves this planet you won't be around to reap the benefits. None of us will."

[iM3GTR]

I'd rather get headbutted back into stoneage, than become a zombie-husk

Being a zombie husk is a good thing! Mac Walters and the catalyst said so.

[Gago]

Deploying the genophage was the right call.

 

I think it is stupid that BW put that one hologram in the Citadel Archives to show how the Salarian and the Turian soldier were against its deployment... Morals and ethics are nice and all but they won't help you when facing extinction. 

[iM3GTR]

Deploying the genophage was the right call.

I think it is stupid that BW put that one hologram in the Citadel Archives to show how the Salarian and the Turian soldier were against its deployment... Morals and ethics are nice and all but they won't help you when facing extinction.

It depends which turn of events Bioware meant at the time. Sometimes it's stated that it ended the Krogan Rebellions to save everyone else.
However other characters say that the Salarians did it just for the evils after the Rebellions were defeated for no reason.
It's supposed to be the first version but Bioware screwed up a little.

[malloc]

Renegade shep was hitler in ME3. I prefer to call it kroganischen Aussterben

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

So now the thread ends with the reductio ad Hitlerum statement.

 

We might as well say that vegetarianism is wrong because Hitler was a vegetarian.

[aoibhealfae]

A Krogan female will lay a clutch of 1000 eggs per year. 

 

When a male Krogan is present and mates with the female, the female will store the deposited sperm in a small internal pouch. As the newly forming egg passes by, it will be fertilized by this deposit of sperm. The female then digs a hole in the ground lays the eggs, and buries the eggs. After a while the eggs hatch and the hatchlings dig their way to the surface much like the way the dinosaurs did. 

 

These details weren't discussed much. I extrapolated this from birds and reptiles. We could assume that the female Krogan would only lay the clutch of eggs after she had mated. I can only imagine what it would be like to lay 1000 eggs in one sitting. 

 

 

Shouldn't this be more crowded if they actually have more than one babies at a time? 

 

There's a lot of general term being thrown about especially "fertile" and "cure" to make it sound slightly scientific and yet still layman enough so it doesn't sound complicated when it should be since reproductive science is a big branch of science by itself.

 

Mordin and Padok Wilks did explain that Maelon did not reverse the genophage. He merely induced a genetic mutation on the expressions of hormones supporting pregnancy, which is basically just a shortcut. And then, the Salarian scientists and STG based all their studies and the population growth and epidemiology on unaltered Krogan, a thousand years prior. The krogans are highly adaptable as a species and for something like a massive genomic alteration, biologically, they aren't the same as the ones pre-genophage. Or better yet, they're Mutants. Besides, most of the sentiments against them was run on centuries old prejudice rather than science. Basically the way it was portrayed is exactly like the "vaccine caused autism" crap. 

 

Because they still retain their genophage, female krogans will still suffer from multiple failed conceptions but the probability that they're now able to support viable fetus to maturity is higher. And since the babies still need mother's hormones to develop, I postulate that they're similar to the way some sharks species reproduce. They lay eggs inside them and give birth to live young. Look it up, its called ovoviviparous. And EDI mentioned that the krogan females have a way to ensure live birth during hard times; so I reckoned they do use surrogate mothers that was able to carry the babies full term but at a cost. And the impact on the society itself, female krogans separated themselves from men, some of them are breeders and some of them are infertile and "used as decoys". They raise their young in seclusion, and majority of the children are male which once grown, they gave them up to the clans in almost amazonian way. Females do not venture outside their worlds. Fertile females are precious to their survival as a species. And everything starts to sound like The Handmaids Tale : space edition.

 

And EDI merely give a hypothetical situation and yet there's no exact proof that Tuchanka was experiencing this planet-wide pregnancy where every single female pop a thousand babies (oh god, I feel tired thinking that). Even Wrex mentioned he did have a lot of sex with other krogans ladies and yet only Eve was having his baby. The actual outcome don't really add up to the "scientific facts" that everyone assume about the krogans. And simply assuming something by itself as fact is unscientific.

[Seraphim24]

Wrong.