Questa discussione ha avuto 56 risposte

[BloodyMares]

There wouldn't be a need for the genophage if krogan could control themselves and stop reproducing like crazy. Maybe after the Reaper war they evolve their thinking and start to consciously control the birth rate. The good thing is that Wrex is considered a Messiah by many clans. He and Bakara can really educate krogan into peaceful coexistence with other races and non-violent ways. And who knows, maybe the next thing the universe will see is that krogan become peaceful like asari and intelligent like salarians. And being friends with rachni. I'm daydreaming.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

There wouldn't be a need for the genophage if krogan could control themselves and stop reproducing like crazy. Maybe after the Reaper war they evolve their thinking and start to consciously control the birth rate. The good thing is that Wrex is considered a Messiah by many clans. He and Bakara can really educate krogan into peaceful coexistence with other races and non-violent ways. And who knows, maybe the next thing the universe will see is that krogan become peaceful like asari and intelligent like salarians. And being friends with rachni. I'm daydreaming.

 

No, you chose synthesis.

[Nicholas_]

So now the thread ends with the reductio ad Hitlerum statement.

 

We might as well say that vegetarianism is wrong because Hitler was a vegetarian.

 

But Hitler wasn't a vegetarian

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

It is acknowledged by historians today that at least during the war he was a vegetarian. 

[matuisgman]

The Genophage is a good idea for population control.

 

But the issue I have is the fact it creates stillbirths instead of lowering chance of pregnancy. I never really got if the Krogan lay eggs or give live young. What it could mean is the young grow in there eggs and just don't hatch. Though this is from a human prospective, Krogan mind set may be different, but I think Eve or someone had a line the suggested differently. 

 

The other issue was it was forced on the Krogan, which at the time may have been non-negotiable since it was during the war. 

 

So cure this genophage and perhaps create something the Krogan can agree on to control their population growth. Though there are other ways to do that.

 

Its the execution.

[Treacherous J Slither]

What other methods of population control do you think would work?

[StarcloudSWG]

Even a modified genophage that just disrupts the process of meiosis earlier rather than allowing fetal development to go to a late stage would be less psychologically harmful. Change it further so that one in a thousand or one in two thousand eggs are viable instead, but every krogan female is fertile, and the krogan birthrate would be sustainable in the long term.

 

The goal of the genophage is not an evil one. It is a necessary one to prevent unrestrained population growth. The problems with the genophage are more the destructive psychological impacts on individual krogan and on krogan society and culture.

[Undead Han]

Morally wrong but pragmatic. 

[UpUpAway95]

Due to the unrealistic Krogan population growth, I never cure the genophage. I'm sorry but given the circumstances it was the right call by the Salarians.

 

The other choice the Council Races had was to nuke the Krogan worlds back to the Stone Age. Nuking garden worlds from orbit, however, was considered a war crime.

 

The situation was desperate. As a pragmatist I don't have an issue with the genophage. It was better than the alternatives.

 

I will frequently cure the genophage on my playthroughs.  Why?  Well, at that point in the game Shepard is looking at a war the could last centuries (that is, from a conversation with Liara, he's aware that it took centuries for the reapers to harvest the Protheans to exinction).  In the Krogan, the galaxy already has a group of intelligent, willing, skillful, tough and clearly allied shock troopers... they just need to make them reproduce at a faster rate to ensure a steady supply of those troops if the war lingers on beyond Shepard's time.

[TheN7Penguin]

It's obviously right. The galaxy would be overflowing with Krogan otherwise. And they don't need more Krogan, they need less.

[Kabooooom]

Due to the unrealistic Krogan population growth, I never cure the genophage. I'm sorry but given the circumstances it was the right call by the Salarians.

The other choice the Council Races had was to nuke the Krogan worlds back to the Stone Age. Nuking garden worlds from orbit, however, was considered a war crime.

The situation was desperate. As a pragmatist I don't have an issue with the genophage. It was better than the alternatives.

This. The genophage was a solution - the ONLY solution other than genocide. Is it moral? No. But it is less immoral than genocide. The universe isnt all sunshine and puppies all the time, and morality often isnt black and white.

As Mordin said, every simulation that they ran (and these are the Salarians we are talking about, with computing technology thousands of years more advanced than Earth in 2015 - I have to assume these simulations were extremely ****** accurate) - resulted in a recurrence of galactic war. Curing it was never an option.

And in ME3, it becomes an option, sort of - partly, because Mordin, who is like the equivalent of a 100 year old human in Salarian years, has an end of life crisis and partly because the galaxy needed Krogan cooperation or everyone becomes extinct.

[aoibhealfae]

The whole long-lived high-population argument could be applied to the Asari as well. While the Krogan female reproduction was altered so that they could give birth to hazardous environment (the whole problem about Krogan overpopulation was due to them migrating outside Tuchanka, they still have preexisting reproductive issue as a consequence of the nuclear war) while the Asari could simply mindmeld anyone they want and induce pregnancy whenever they want and they could choose to pursue other races just to have low risk of giving birth to Ardat-Yakshi (which only exhibit decades later) and because of their long lifespan, they could simply switch partners every few centuries and simply throw their offsprings to the wild once they're off age and free to pursue another partner have another baby to fill the time. That's quite parasitic but its okay because they're the most advanced alien race in the galaxy (because the have the advantage of being uplifted by the Protheans and left with their technology).

 

But apparently its okay to not curb a certain race's dominance the in galaxy because their race is far more civilized and yet its okay to sterilize a lesser race because they're typically known for their violent behaviors. Even in real life, eugenics programs and government-sanctioned mass sterilization still do exist today and and just like what happen to the krogans, it is still just as rife in ethical conflicts and attempts of personal justification.  

[BloodyMares]

The whole long-lived high-population argument could be applied to the Asari as well. While the Krogan female reproduction was altered so that they could give birth to hazardous environment (the whole problem about Krogan overpopulation was due to them migrating outside Tuchanka, they still have preexisting reproductive issue as a consequence of the nuclear war) while the Asari could simply mindmeld anyone they want and induce pregnancy whenever they want and they could choose to pursue other races just to have low risk of giving birth to Ardat-Yakshi (which only exhibit decades later) and because of their long lifespan, they could simply switch partners every few centuries and simply throw their offsprings to the wild once they're off age and free to pursue another partner have another baby to fill the time. That's quite parasitic but its okay because they're the most advanced alien race in the galaxy (because the have the advantage of being uplifted by the Protheans and left with their technology).

 

But apparently its okay to not curb a certain race's dominance the in galaxy because their race is far more civilized and yet its okay to sterilize a lesser race because they're typically known for their violent behaviors. Even in real life, eugenics programs and government-sanctioned mass sterilization still do exist today and and just like what happen to the krogans, it is still just as rife in ethical conflicts and attempts of personal justification.  

Except the asari don't pop eggs. They give births like humans. One at a time, not 1000 at a time. And it's very uncomfortable process. They may live long lives but they are developed enough unlike krogan. And humans can give birth every 9 months also but most women choose not to have more than 2-3 kids. In developed countries, people don't give births that often.They care about their well-being and many kids are hard to raise. The same can be applied to asari. Ask any woman, if she could live nearly 1000 years, how would she spend this time? Answers may vary, but I assure you, nobody will say 'make babies' or at least it will be less than 1%. And the genophage is birth-control, not sterilization. Given their long life, there are many krogan even with the genophage. They have as many offsprings as humans and they live longer and have a natural regeneration. As Wrex said, genophage is not what's killing them. It's their own stupidity.

[aoibhealfae]

lol, a Krogan female "produce clutches of up to 1,000 fertilized eggs over the course of a year." not at once and it doesn't necessary mean they're all born alive. And I don't think Krogan lay eggs like chicken. The unborn babies still need mother's hormones to mature which meant they're oviparous. They still give birth one at a time over a regular period of pregnancy. Even Wrex mention he having a child with Eve. Not a thousand of sons.

 

Human female produce ovum cells every 28 days which meant 12 egg cells per year, does that mean a fertile human female pop up every once a month?

 

Tuchanka is a radioactive wasteland which already increased risk of infertility and genetic defects due to environmental hazard. Genophage ensure randomized krogan reproductive viabilty, which meant lower window for fertility period for either male and female krogans. ie: high probability of low ovum cells output and sperm maturity. Genophage also prevents fetal maturity, so even if they're fertilized, they will be born dead most of the time. At the time, the krogan suffered severe gender imbalance, giving one female of every two thousand birth. With already small female population with even smaller subset that are fertile, do you seriously think they want to be pregnant all the time for centuries? And with population bottleneck, it is harming their own genetic pool.

 

It is sterilization. The genophage targeted endocrine glands that was involved in reproduction and pregnancy and rendered them completely defunct like "human appendix". That's why the genophage cure targeted immune glands instead to enable viable birth and as a side effect, long term impaired immunity to all krogan. This is exactly what Mordin said in ME3 and its basic endocrinology. Even if cured, the genophage and Mordin's alteration still affect all Krogan. The cure only ensure the fetus that survive the genophage odds would live instead of born dead with immature nervous system. If you sabotage the cure, you are virtually doing nothing, only ensuring those unborn babies would never have a chance to be born alive.

 

The Asari are just as dangerous as the Krogan. Their entire population are biotics, ardat-yakshi or not, all of them can kill people with their mind. If Biotic prejudice was prevalent among all alien race, if the Asari emerged later than other races without any Prothean uplifting, they would be heavily discriminated just as the Krogan and the stereotypes that they breed like cockroaches.

[Linkenski]

It's wringht

[BloodyMares]

lol, a Krogan female "produce clutches of up to 1,000 fertilized eggs over the course of a year." not at once and it doesn't necessary mean they're all born alive. And I don't think Krogan lay eggs like chicken. The unborn babies still need mother's hormones to mature which meant they're oviparous. They still give birth one at a time over a regular period of pregnancy. Even Wrex mention he having a child with Eve. Not a thousand of sons.

 

Human female produce ovum cells every 28 days which meant 12 egg cells per year, does that mean a fertile human female pop up every once a month?

 

Tuchanka is a radioactive wasteland which already increased risk of infertility and genetic defects due to environmental hazard. Genophage ensure randomized krogan reproductive viabilty, which meant lower window for fertility period for either male and female krogans. ie: high probability of low ovum cells output and sperm maturity. Genophage also prevents fetal maturity, so even if they're fertilized, they will be born dead most of the time. At the time, the krogan suffered severe gender imbalance, giving one female of every two thousand birth. With already small female population with even smaller subset that are fertile, do you seriously think they want to be pregnant all the time for centuries? And with population bottleneck, it is harming their own genetic pool.

 

It is sterilization. The genophage targeted endocrine glands that was involved in reproduction and pregnancy and rendered them completely defunct like "human appendix". That's why the genophage cure targeted immune glands instead to enable viable birth and as a side effect, long term impaired immunity to all krogan. This is exactly what Mordin said in ME3 and its basic endocrinology. Even if cured, the genophage and Mordin's alteration still affect all Krogan. The cure only ensure the fetus that survive the genophage odds would live instead of born dead with immature nervous system. If you sabotage the cure, you are virtually doing nothing, only ensuring those unborn babies would never have a chance to be born alive.

 

The Asari are just as dangerous as the Krogan. Their entire population are biotics, ardat-yakshi or not, all of them can kill people with their mind. If Biotic prejudice was prevalent among all alien race, if the Asari emerged later than other races without any Prothean uplifting, they would be heavily discriminated just as the Krogan and the stereotypes that they breed like cockroaches.

I will simply quote Mordin (if Wreav is the leader): "But if wanted your species dead, could have sterilized you. Bloodless, irreversible. Easy." It's clear that genophage isn't the same as sterilization. If it was sterilization, there would be no offsprings at all.

[UpUpAway95]

I will simply quote Mordin (if Wreav is the leader): "But if wanted your species dead, could have sterilized you. Bloodless, irreversible. Easy." It's clear that genophage isn't the same as sterilization. If it was sterilization, there would be no offsprings at all.

 

I will also quote Mordin "I made a mistake."  There are a lot of discrepancies in how the genophage is presented within the game.  Since fertile females were identified by the krogan and held in particularly high esteem and Maelon's work involved taking preveious infertile females and making them fertile again, the genophage must have resulted in the sterilization of at least some of the female population of Krogan; otherwise the dialogue about curing the genophage should have followed more along the lines of again increasing the fertility of already fertile females rather than about making interfile females fertile.

[aoibhealfae]

I will simply quote Mordin (if Wreav is the leader): "But if wanted your species dead, could have sterilized you. Bloodless, irreversible. Easy." It's clear that genophage isn't the same as sterilization. If it was sterilization, there would be no offsprings at all.

 

It is eugenics and mass sterilization especially when you rendered huge percentage of a race infertile and induce a bottleneck population to sustain it. If you actually read my post, the genophage itself wasn't even cured. The 'cure' in ME3 was merely a mutagen that helps the krogan females to sustain a viable birth and reduced the general Krogan lifespan, nothing more. 

 

What it didn't occur to him was the political and social consequences. The genophage never benefit the krogan except for the richer, technologically-advanced, privileged council races. They purposely kept the krogan the way they are, keeping them in barbarism and perpetuating the civil war as an outlet for aggression while never actually helping the krogan to make life better. Even the females banded together to form a clan because the genophage and men reduced and devalued them as breeding cattle and they're often time being targeted to be killed. This occur in the duration for over a thousand years, which is really just a single generation. The krogan post-genophage have more old people than younger ones, which solve nothing.

 

Mordin didn't even consider the epidemiology and psychosocial effect of his studies and only realize this after he unleash his version of genophage. It may look good on paper but reality is a whole different thing. 

[myownchris]

The question is, what if not all Krogan were affected by the 'cure'? Since it's not a cure, but a mutagen and there is no announcement about the dispersal of the cure, what if some people staying inside and didn't get the cure? The tower is exploded so the cure won't last in the air forever. And considering Tuchanka's traditions and environment that's so harsh that probably only 100 in 1000 Krogan survive it's coming of age ritual. And if they do expanding so fast, their home world would ended up just like the drells, even before the council raise them for Rachni Wars. So if their population is stable before their upraising, why would they go overpopulating their planet after the upraising? It just simply impossible that every baby that's born into Krogan family will survive, probably only 10% of it before the renaissance of the Krogans after the end of Reapers war. And by then they will see that they don't need vast number, because it'll be easier to control small population and Wrex would understand that.

[BloodyMares]

The question is, what if not all Krogan were affected by the 'cure'? Since it's not a cure, but a mutagen and there is no announcement about the dispersal of the cure, what if some people staying inside and didn't get the cure? The tower is exploded so the cure won't last in the air forever. And considering Tuchanka's traditions and environment that's so harsh that probably only 100 in 1000 Krogan survive it's coming of age ritual. And if they do expanding so fast, their home world would ended up just like the drells, even before the council raise them for Rachni Wars. So if their population is stable before their upraising, why would they go overpopulating their planet after the upraising? It just simply impossible that every baby that's born into Krogan family will survive, probably only 10% of it before the renaissance of the Krogans after the end of Reapers war. And by then they will see that they don't need vast number, because it'll be easier to control small population and Wrex would understand that.

You know how technology helps in life, right? You know that our planet is dangerous to humans. Predators, natural disasters, insects etc. But we possess the technology so we can overcome these dangers easily while before that humans were very vulnerable. Now imagine if we give this technology to those cavemen and teach them how to use it. They can easily defend themselves and will disrupt the balance in nature. The same happened to krogan. Their extreme birth rate, lifespan, survivability and savagery makes them the most dangerous species. How do you defend yourself from such force? You can't take back the technology because they're stronger. The only choice is to either bomb them all and commit a genocide or stabilize their birth rate so they're not unstoppable anymore. Is the genophage morally wrong? Yes. But given the situation, it is the best decision. And even in ME3, there are a lot of clan leaders who want revenge against council races and continue the Krogan Rebellions. And there is no guarantee that even Wrex+Bakara can stop them. If Wrex is dead, curing the genophage is outright stupid decision that even Paragon Shepard acknowledges that.

[Barquiel]

Given the choices, and overall actions and mentality of the Krogan, "RAWR, SMASH!", it was the right thing to do (.....and the krogan would have done the same or worse if they had the ability to). The krogan committed terrible crimes against the other species- they dropped asteroids on Turian worlds and launched unprovoked attacks against the council races who had up until then treated them favourably.

And simply fighting the Krogan back would have only been a delaying measure, they would have rebuilt their numbers and simply attacked again at a later date, all the smarter for having been defeated before. You would end up with an endless cycle of war which wouldn't allow for the necessary social change needed for the Krogan to become productive members of Galactic society.

[iM3GTR]

I'm pretty sure Krogan don't each have 1000 children at the same time. In ME, Wrex said only a few in 1000 survive birth, not "Out of the 1000 each Krogan female lays at one time, only a few survive.
But then again, I suppose it's quite likely that ME3 would mess something up like this. Again.

[BloodyMares]

I'm pretty sure Krogan don't each have 1000 children at the same time. In ME, Wrex said only a few in 1000 survive birth, not "Out of the 1000 each Krogan female lays at one time, only a few survive.
But then again, I suppose it's quite likely that ME3 would mess something up like this. Again.

It's not 1000 at one time, it's 1000 once a year (from 1 female). Which is basically the same from human perspective (1 pregnancy once a year). Genophage makes it so their birth rate is approximately equal to human birth rate.

[Artona]

Genophage is wrong, but good for the galaxy. 

[Vortex13]

I will frequently cure the genophage on my playthroughs.  Why?  Well, at that point in the game Shepard is looking at a war the could last centuries (that is, from a conversation with Liara, he's aware that it took centuries for the reapers to harvest the Protheans to exinction).  In the Krogan, the galaxy already has a group of intelligent, willing, skillful, tough and clearly allied shock troopers... they just need to make them reproduce at a faster rate to ensure a steady supply of those troops if the war lingers on beyond Shepard's time.

 

 

I would take that stance (potentially) if aliens like the Rachni weren't infinitely better suited for that role than the Krogan though. 

 

An alien species that is (roughly) on par with the Krogan in terms of strength and combat capability. Who's newborn can reach maturity (and combat readiness) in a matter of days as opposed to years. Come equipped with their own natural weapons and armor on par with modern technology. Are capable of surviving extremely diverse and harsh environments without the need for pressurized suits or oxygen. Each have a natural QEC built into their biology, eliminating the need for easily disrupted relay network communications. Natural engineers that can operate and help construct highly advanced technology (like the Crucible) in addition to their impressive martial prowess. And willing to come to the aid of the galaxy, no questions asked or concessions demanded for "past wrongs". 

 

 

 

Highly organized and disciplined troops, that can serve other battlefield roles in addition to being front-line troops, that mature rapidly and have natural protections and weapons that would allow them to engage Reaper ground forces without the need for mass produced weapons and armor, and are willing to help in the fight without holding the rest of the galaxy hostage until their demands are met > Hyper violent battle toads with a massive chip on their shoulders (IMO).