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[Gervaise]

We have been given a lot of information about early elven history and surprisingly enough, a lot of it actually fits with the Dalish myths.   Fen'Harel did shut away the Creators that meant they could no longer interact with the elven people and this did amount to the beginning of the end of them as a power in Thedas.   This was pretty much about things that occurred before the beginning of recorded history.   However, the conquest of Arlathan is a much more recent event.   As Dorian says, this has always been presented as the might of the Tevinter Imperium bringing down the might of the elven empire.   The reality falls far short of this since Abelas says this was just the corpse of an empire destroyed by civil war.  

 

Yet the story goes that despite being situated so close to Qarinus, and thus always a major kingdom of the split Neromenian ethnic group, no one had gone near the place until the establishment of the Tevinter Imperium.   Partly this could be accounted for by elves immediately attacking anyone who entered the forest as they subsequently did representatives of the Imperium.   The forest had acquired a reputation for being haunted but even so it seems strange it should have taken as long as it did for the human nation to realise there were elves on their doorstep.   Be that as it may, initially the Imperium simply built a fortress to monitor the forest rather than attempting anything more.   This in itself was curious.   Their emissaries on a peaceful diplomatic mission had been slaughtered and yet the Imperium did not take any action.   Quite unlike the nation that came to power by destroying any other tribes that opposed them.   Some Chantry scholars have suggested that the Tevinter mages originally learned their blood magic not from demons of the Fade but the elves of Arlathan.   Could this be why the Magisters were so reluctant to move against the elves of the forest; because they had originally had ties to them and also they knew what they could do?

 

In -998 several Tevinter settlements within the forest disappeared without trace.  Again it seems odd that people would be making settlements in a place that was known to be dangerous, where it was known there were hostile humanoid creatures and their official representatives had been killed by them.   Despite calls from their people to go to war, their leaders still delayed another 17 years before they decided to take action.   The Archon ordered war and on entering the forest they "discovered" a city hidden deep within it.   The Tevinter Imperium laid siege to this, which lasted for 6 years and consumed much of the Imperium's resources in maintaining the war.   So the apparent "corpse" of the elven empire was still powerful enough that it could withstand a siege for 6 years.  This is not normally the way that sieges go, people starving and either killing themselves or surrendering in a much shorter time period.  

 

In the end Tevinter decided to break the stale mate because southern tribes were taking advantage of the situation to rise up but the only way they were able to do this was by literally sinking the city into the ground.   It was claimed this was done by blood magic.   If so, it seems strange that Tevinter have never repeated the feat since then.   The only examples we have of someone being able to literally control the earth itself are the earthquake of the Titan in the Descent and Corypheus using the power of the elven orb and red lyrium.   I'm wondering if Tevinter really only benefitted from a happy co-incidence, that they claimed credit for, when they didn't actually sink the city themselves at all.   May be the magic being thrown about did enrage a Titan that swallowed the city.   Or may be the elves sank it themselves to prevent its capture.   Which might explain why they evacuated it first.   Otherwise it is hard to understand how so many elves escaped if the Tevinter sank it without warning.

 

There was only one previous example of a city being sunk, allegedly by magic or the actions of a god, and that was Barindur.   However, the story concerning that is doubtful as it was meant to be as reprisal for insulting a priest of the god Dumat, but occurred 15 years before Thalsian became the first priest of Dumat.   So this seems more like subsequent priests trying to frighten people into accepting them by claiming something for their god where no one knew exactly what did happen.   Solas seems to claim it was a natural disaster of volcanic nature, although the geology of Thedas must be different to that of earth if that was the case, since there is no sign of any volcanic caldera on the plains of Tevinter.    Strangely enough Barindur was said to have been the location of a Fountain of Youth - did this city have some sort of elven connection?   Was it founded on the site of an older elven settlement?

 

I'm hoping that the mystery concerning Arlathan is something that we will find out the answer to in the next game, purely because it is so closely connected with the claims of the Imperium.   Still, any ideas of what really occurred there?    

[Yaroub]

Vorcha torched it by accident.

[Wulfram]

A 6 year siege is quite believable if the besiegers can't shut off supplies. Say, if the elves had a working Eluvian or two?

[Gervaise]

Morrigan maintains that the eluvian network was shut down well before Arlathan but even if she got that wrong, why didn't the elves use these to flee from Tevinter, instead of running into the arms of the waiting army?   

[In Exile]

Just because there's a physical location called the Arlathan Forest doesn't mean that's where the "Arlathan" of the Elvhen was located. Solas describes it as the greatest city of his people. A city in a forest, with the majesty that we've seen so far, including the Library in Trespasser, just doesn't make sense. Arlathan was almost certainly a city in a pocket dimension, twisted and broken in the same way as the Library when the Veil rose. 

 

Whatever Tevinters conquered, even if it was called Arlathan, was very likely not the same as what the Elvhen had build as the pinnacle of their society.

[Gervaise]

That is my whole point; what did they conquer?   If it was no more extensive than the Temple of Mythal that was located within the ruins of what had once been her city in the south; why were the rulers of Tevinter so reluctant to take action against it and why did it take them 6 years to conquer it?     Tevinter have built a myth of their own on the basis of this action.   It is very clearly is based on the location of Arlathan Forest since it was only when they expanded eastwards that the trouble began.    We know it was not the same in power as the Arlathan of ancient elven empire, which we also know would have fallen apart when Solas raised the Veil.   So what was it that the Tevinter conquered.    It was clearly inhabited by a considerable number of elves because we are told it significantly increased their slave workforce as a result.   The Dalish legends claim that they entered the city and only sunk it after they had sacked it; which seems a bit pointless to go to all that effort if they had already subdued the population.  However, the Dalish lorekeepers admit they don't really know what happened and are likely only repeating what the Tevinter claimed and probably kept taunting them with.   The fact is of all the various civilisations that came into conflict with the power of ancient Tevinter, this seems the only one to have given them serious problems.

[In Exile]

That is my whole point; what did they conquer?   If it was no more extensive than the Temple of Mythal that was located within the ruins of what had once been her city in the south; why were the rulers of Tevinter so reluctant to take action against it and why did it take them 6 years to conquer it?     Tevinter have built a myth of their own on the basis of this action.   It is very clearly is based on the location of Arlathan Forest since it was only when they expanded eastwards that the trouble began.    We know it was not the same in power as the Arlathan of ancient elven empire, which we also know would have fallen apart when Solas raised the Veil.   So what was it that the Tevinter conquered.    It was clearly inhabited by a considerable number of elves because we are told it significantly increased their slave workforce as a result.   The Dalish legends claim that they entered the city and only sunk it after they had sacked it; which seems a bit pointless to go to all that effort if they had already subdued the population.  However, the Dalish lorekeepers admit they don't really know what happened and are likely only repeating what the Tevinter claimed and probably kept taunting them with.   The fact is of all the various civilisations that came into conflict with the power of ancient Tevinter, this seems the only one to have given them serious problems.

 

Probably a holdover. We have no idea how much time passed or what the elves did since the Veil arose. We know it broke their society. It's not so unreasonable that they would just create a kind of mimicry of their society, as best they could. Try to re-create their gods, re-create their cities, in a world where all of the magic that powered it disappeared from them. 

[Iakus]

Just because there's a physical location called the Arlathan Forest doesn't mean that's where the "Arlathan" of the Elvhen was located. Solas describes it as the greatest city of his people. A city in a forest, with the majesty that we've seen so far, including the Library in Trespasser, just doesn't make sense. Arlathan was almost certainly a city in a pocket dimension, twisted and broken in the same way as the Library when the Veil rose. 

 

Whatever Tevinters conquered, even if it was called Arlathan, was very likely not the same as what the Elvhen had build as the pinnacle of their society.

This is quite likely, and even syncs up a bit with the legend that Tevinter "sank Arlathan into the earth"  If huge sections of the cities just plain vanished, it may very well seem like the ground just swallowed it up.

[Wulfram]

I don't think we should take the views of Abelas as overly conclusive. He's a snooty elvhen who doesn't see mortal elves as elves, and who basically slept through all these events.

If the accounts of the fall of Arlathan to Tevinter are at all accurate, this took place a thousand years after the veil. Which makes it not the "corpse" of old Arlathan, but its own thing.

[thats1evildude]

Actually, I think Solas resolved the mystery of the missing city of Barindur: it was destroyed by a volcanic eruption.

Much like Pompeii, the city is still there, but it's been literally buried under tons of ash. The Theodosians just think it disappeared.

[Gervaise]

This is why I say the geology of Thedas must be very different from the real world.   With Pompeii there is a dirty great volcano still standing alongside the site.   The people were killed by a pyroclastic flow.   It was also something that was visible from miles around and witnesses recorded the incident.   With a volcano of that magnitude lots of dust gets thrown into the atmosphere, so affecting the sky.    This I suppose could account for the strange portents attributed to priests of Razikale off in distant Minrathous, except of course there were no priests of Razikale at that time.   So clearly the story about the city being sunk was just a later invention but it is still odd that no one from the nomadic tribes that were around at the time that Barindur was destroyed didn't remember something about it, although I suppose those versions could have been supressed by the priesthood of Dumat who were using the "disappearance" of Barindur for their own ends.   It is just that the explanation of volcanic eruption would be more believable if there was some sort of natural feature that you could link to it on the map of Thedas.

 

Strangely enough, there is a conical mountain called the White Spire in the north of Thedas very close to Arlathan Forest, so a volcanic eruption burying the city would make much more sense there.

[thats1evildude]

I don't follow. Why would there be no priests of Razikale? If there were priests of Dumat, why not her?

Also, where is Barindur supposed to be on a map? How do you know there isn't a volcano nearby?

[Gervaise]

There were neither set of priests.   The first priest of Dumat was Thalsian who isn't recorded as making an appearance until 15 years after the sinking of Barindur.   Then following him converting the Neromenians to the worship of Dumat, other gods followed, although I suppose it is possible that worship of Razikale started before that of Dumat.    The only real evidence for Dumat being first is the Chant where the Neromenians were the first to turn from worship of the Maker but I have to admit to being very sceptical about anything in the chant, so who knows.

 

The map in World of Thedas 1 shows land features to the extent of anything that sticks up like a mountain .   Brother Genetivi's account of the location of Barindur talks of travelling across the plains of Tevinter for many days.   Barindur was also likely south of Neomenian and Qarinus and east of the old kingdom of Tevinter, placing it in the region between the Nocen Sea and the Silent Plains.   There seems no indication on the map of any noticeable land feature in this area that could indicate a volcano.

[Donquijote and 59 others]

Just because there's a physical location called the Arlathan Forest doesn't mean that's where the "Arlathan" of the Elvhen was located. Solas describes it as the greatest city of his people. A city in a forest, with the majesty that we've seen so far, including the Library in Trespasser, just doesn't make sense. Arlathan was almost certainly a city in a pocket dimension, twisted and broken in the same way as the Library when the Veil rose. 

 

Whatever Tevinters conquered, even if it was called Arlathan, was very likely not the same as what the Elvhen had build as the pinnacle of their society.

That's way arlathan=black city and there the Evanuris are trapped alone in the city!

[thats1evildude]

There were neither set of priests.   The first priest of Dumat was Thalsian who isn't recorded as making an appearance until 15 years after the sinking of Barindur.   Then following him converting the Neromenians to the worship of Dumat, other gods followed, although I suppose it is possible that worship of Razikale started before that of Dumat.    The only real evidence for Dumat being first is the Chant where the Neromenians were the first to turn from worship of the Maker but I have to admit to being very sceptical about anything in the chant, so who knows.

 

The Old Gods began whispering to humans in 2800 Ancient, a thousand years before the destruction of Barindur in 1610.

 

This is admittedly confusing, but the Old Gods first taught magic to the Neromenians, who became Barindur, Tevinter, Qarinus and Neromenians in 1700 Ancient. Thalsian established worship of the Old Gods as Tevinter's main religion in 1595 Ancient and was the first recorded blood mage, claimimg to have learned it from Dumat.

 

When Tevinters call Thalsian the First Dreamer and First Priest of Dumat, they mean "The first we give a s**t about."

[Donquijote and 59 others]

Yeeah i want to kill all the old gods and suck their powers!

[Aren]

With Pompeii there is a dirty great volcano still standing alongside the site. The people were killed by a pyroclastic flow. It was also something that was visible from miles around and witnesses recorded the incident. With a volcano of that magnitude lots of dust gets thrown into the atmosphere, so affecting the sky. This I suppose could account for the strange portents attributed to priests of Razikale .

I didn't know that priest of Razikale were or are near Pompei,since i'm from those parts but i never met them.......
Who knows maybe they radunate in secret places?

[Mistic]

Given the recent discoveries in DA:I about what happened to the Elven Gods, the Veil, the ancient elven civilization, what their magic was truly capable of and, closer to current dates in Thedas, what sparked the Dales-Orlais war, I'd withhold my judgement. It's more than likely that the information we have at this time, including the timeline in World of Thedas, is full of inaccuracies, half-truths and outright lies

[Gold Dragon]

I wouldn't be surprised to find out that Arlathan was located in what is the Present Day Waking Sea.

 

One Statement in Inquisition states that it is called such because the Sea awoke with the Maker's Wrath.....

 

 

And Stone isn't the only way to bury something....

[myahele]

It could be possible that "Arlathan" that Tevinter sunk was just re-named place that Elvhen survivors named "(new) Arlathan" We've seen plenty in our world of new colonies using oldtown names such as new York, Hampshire, Portland, etc.

 

They might've sank Arlathan, but it was not *the* Arlathan of old. Just a city named in honor of the Old Elvhen city

[Kakistos_]

Keep in mind that The First Blight nearly wiped out civilization and thus much of the world's knowledge of what came before. Like the real world Dark Ages we simply don't know much about that era because much of the information and people capable of replicating it were destroyed.

[Gervaise]

Barindur was really a side issue but there is an alternative theory that when the first timeline talks of the Neromenian tribes learning from the old gods in the Fade, they were really learning from the elves, or more likely the ruins of the elves, since it is very soon after the fall of the Empire at the raising of the Veil.  

 

Obviously that far back in history things would be a bit vague, although the Neromenian's descendants are still alive and every culture has an oral tradition that pre-dates written records.   People think this is what leads to inaccuracies but in fact in many cultures where their history is passed on orally, it is actually very important to them that this is done precisely and the job of lore keeper is a highly respected one, one of the necessary attributes being having a good memory.   Often stories are recounted in a rhythmic way, so when written down appear like poetry, because that made it easier to remember.    It is only when the culture dies out, particularly when the people are conquered and assimilated into another one that the traditional history is lost or fragmented.   The elves are a good example of this.

 

The reason I am so curious about Arlathan (or new Arlathan) is that it is part of the folk lore of both humans and elves.    It belongs to a much more recent part of history than the actual fall of the elven empire and thus it makes me wonder what was actually there.    It may be that the elves didn't call it Arlathan at all but that the Tevinter gave it that name because they liked to think they had conquered the fabled capital of the elven empire; it was something of a proud boast of theirs that they did.   To admit that it was just a minor elven settlement that was a relic from a bygone age wouldn't do at all.

 

After all, the real Valarian Fields must have been somewhere in the vicinity of modern Nevarra and not immediately outside the gates of Minrathous, and Tevinter must be aware of this, yet apparently for some reason they still have it marked as the site of the battle up there in the north.    So I can perfectly accept that the "city" in Arlathan forest may have had nothing to do with the original Arlathan but the fact that the Tevinter were so reluctant to take action initially and then took so long to conquer it does make me curious as to precisely what was there.

[Sifr]

Morrigan maintains that the eluvian network was shut down well before Arlathan but even if she got that wrong, why didn't the elves use these to flee from Tevinter, instead of running into the arms of the waiting army?   

 

Perhaps the Veil coming down was akin to changing the wi-fi password, meaning that while the Eluvians continued to exist, the Elves no longer had any way to connect them to the Crossroads or to each other? It'd explain why the Elves in Vir Dirthara were similarly trapped by the Veil coming down, having lost all means for them to escape because the Eluvians in the library sealed themselves.

 

Morrigan is probably right, that by the time that the Vints were closing in on Arlathan, the Eluvians were just fancy mirrors gathering dust.

[Wulfram]

If the Eluvians work now, I don't see why they wouldn't work 1000 years after the creation of the veil.

[Sifr]

If the Eluvians work now, I don't see why they wouldn't work 1000 years after the creation of the veil.

 

Imagine the Eluvians are a computer and the Crossroads is the internet.

 

From one terminal, either password protected or unlocked, you can connect to the entire network. But should an important server or your router go offline, then you'll get a 404 error that prevents you from either accessing what you want.

 

As a device that operates using the Fade, the Veil coming down disrupted their normal function and also knocked out a huge chuck of the "servers" and "routers" that the Eluvians used to connect everything together. Some of the Eluvians continued to work because they were still able to connect to the limited sections of the Crossroads that remained accessible, although many needed a password to open first. The others went dark because the areas of the Crossroads they normally connected to were now offline.

 

This would make the password Briala created in Masked Empire serve as some kind of admin access, one that could perform a remote reset of the entire system and bring all the Eluvians back online... which is why the network is once again fully operational as of Trespasser.

 

At least, that's what I figure happened?